High school English and lit?

[Brittany1116]

I've looked through the motherload pages and can't really find what I need, which is what constitutes a college-bound HS English/lit course. 

My tentative plans for my older boy basically end with middle school. He is already earning HS math credit, and electives and sciences are straight forward. I just don't know what to to for English. By HS, he will have completed Rod and Staff English through level 8, several Progeny Press lit guides, some IEW writing programs, other creative writing, and some Easy Grammar just for good measure. I like RS English but think I want to switch it up after 8th. I also envision him doing DE for English in 11 and 12, so I really just need two good years. 

Can anyone offer ideas based on this? I appreciate your shared thoughts. 

[8filltheheart]

Our English crs are based on reading lit, discussions, and writing assignments (either essays or research).

[Brittany1116]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Our English crs are based on reading lit, discussions, and writing assignments (either essays or research).

Okay, so the mechanics of English are practiced and proven through the writing and don't need to be a separate chunk of the course? This sounds great. 

[cintinative]

6 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

Okay, so the mechanics of English are practiced and proven through the writing and don't need to be a separate chunk of the course? This sounds great. 

I think it depends on if you think that your child needs more grammar practice.  There is some of that on the ACT, so that might be a reason to keep it in the queue, but I think most people would say grammar is sort of folded into the writing instruction in high school.

My kids have both taken writing courses at TPS and they always include some grammar, in the context of writing: do you need a comma here, or not? Can you reword this so it is not passive tense? etc.

I honestly have zero familiarity, but both have used Sentence Composing for High School.  It might be worth looking at the preview to see if it is worthwhile as a supplement. It's really a very small part of the homework for each week.

ETA:  For various longwinded reasons, I separated out lit and comp for my kids.  A lot of people combine them, and that is totally okay. I just wanted to let you know that is an option, if for some reason you aren't finding a great fit lit/comp program.  My youngest has struggled with writing, so it helped to untether the two so he can progress with both at the pace that makes sense for him.

Edited November 21, 2022 by cintinative

[lewelma]

For English, my older boy read SO MANY classics (War and Peace, 100 years of Solitude, Crime and Punishment, etc), we discussed them but did no literary analysis on these novels. His focus was on writing science articles for the lay public. So writing for Economist (short informational) and Scientific American (both persuasive and long informational) - so papers on Genetic modification, space flight, nuclear power, etc. We analyzed how different types of science writing were effective from the point of view of purpose and audience. He also did a 3-week unit each year on literary analysis of unfamiliar text under time pressure. So analyze a poem and short non-fiction and then compare. These were in prep for the equivalent of AP lit, but done in NZ.

My younger boy focused on literary analysis of Jane Austin novels (4 of them) and Huck Finn. One was a comparison paper and one was a research paper. These took him 6 months in his senior year, so way way deeper than the lit analysis work my older boy did. He also focused on creative writing and creative non-fiction. He read much less than my older boy, but spent way more time analyzing *how* other works were written. For example, we did 1 hour a day for 20 days studying a single piece of writing from National Geographic. This piece he mimicked in style and approach, and the essay he wrote won the national teen writing competition.

Point being, you have a lot of flexibility for what counts as 'English'. 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by lewelma

[Lori D.]

I teach high school Lit. & Comp courses at my local homeschool co-op. I teach for college prep, and many of my students are doing DE in 11th and 12th grades. What my credit-worthy courses include:

Literature
- reading, discussing, analyzing (my weekly lessons provide lit. info, and guided thinking (NOT comprehension) questions)
- variety of types of literature: novels, novellas, short stories, poetry, plays, essays
- variety of genres, variety of author time periods/locations 
- literary devices
- topics in literature (major themes/ideas; genres & conventions; etc.)
- background info on specific works/author/times


Writing -- review of the basics
Because I never know what students have covered previously, we cover the following foundational ideas, and practice with in-class activities and exercises, and then they usually are able to apply to the assignment:

- familiarity with types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive)
- what makes a complete sentence
- basic paragraph structure
- essay structure
- MLA formatting
- citing sources -- plagiarism; valid vs. invalid sources; in-text citations; Works Cited page
- writing process -- brainstorm, organize, rough draft, revise, proof-edit
- types of brainstorming/organizing helps (outline, graphic organizer, mind map, write out thoughts in response to prompt...)
- types of revision (big fixes)
• sentence fixes  -- run-ons, fragments, grammatical issues
• structure (of essay) fixes -- add, remove/combine, move
-- add what's missing
-- remove what's not working or is a repeat
-- combine several sentences saying similar things into a single strong specific sentence
-- move sentences/paragraphs as needed for stronger more logical structure and smoother flow
• style fixes
-- replace vague/repeated words with specific/vivid word
-- vary sentence structure from time to time for reading interest; etc.
- proof-editing checklist ("little fixes") -- capitalization, punctuation, spelling, typos, doubled word/missing word, formatting fixes


Writing assignments
Usually it takes me 2 years to get through all of the types of assignments, as some of the assignments we do several versions of during the year -- example: I usually have them do several different types of literary analysis essays over the course of the year, to have a way of getting more of their thinking/analysis on the literature we are reading.

- "real life" writing -- resume, cover letter
- news article
- descriptive essay
- personal narrative essay
- process paper ("how to")
- definition essay (explanation of a term or idea, with supporting examples)
- informational research paper with citations
- comparison essay
- opinion essay ("position paper") 
- SAT/ACT timed essay (note: SAT dropped their essay in 2021, and the ACT essay is optional -- but is very specific in what they want)
- college application and/or scholarship application essay
- short oral presentation with power point or slideshow (many college classes now expect this as one of their assignments)
- reader response papers
- literary analysis essay (analysis of character; theme; key quotation; literary element; etc.)
- cause and effect essay
- problem/solution essay
- argumentative research paper with citations


I don't directly incorporate grammar into my teaching or class assignments because:
1. I figure they have learned all the grammar needed prior to high school
2. We actually put grammar to use in the revision (sentence structure, grammar usage) and proof-editing (capitalization, punctuation) stages

Edited November 21, 2022 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

Okay, so the mechanics of English are practiced and proven through the writing and don't need to be a separate chunk of the course? This sounds great. 

A course that's heavy on grammar and mechanics usually looks remedial to colleges if they peek under the hood via course descriptions. They won't always, but there it is. Kids are expected to mostly know the basics and be practicing it through their own writing at this point. Literature should be a key element for at least most of the core English courses in high school. 

The number one thing I think high school students need is quality feedback on their writing. At this stage, students should be moving away from writing pure summary and into writing more with a purpose. 

In terms of literature, I would urge families to not spend overlong on children's literature (some YA titles mixed in is fine... a large number of middle grade titles in a high school course is not) and to consider reading some modern literature and at least some authors who are not dead white males. These things matter to colleges if they look at the course descriptions.

English is one of the easier things out there to DIY a full course on, IMHO. Really, you just need a literature list and some key composition assignments. But there are also a lot of modular pieces that you can potentially slot into place. There are some good short term writing courses, like the Write at Home workshops that you could pair with at home literature. Or there are academic writing resources like They Say, I Say. Or you can go the other way and use an online book club for literature discussion - there are several options for that. Or you can do it all at home. There are some good individual novel study books, some solid literature textbooks with assignments.

[8filltheheart]

I personally think They Say, I Say is remedial. I know colleges use it, but it is formulaic and low quality writing. (I'd make my kids rewrite their papers if they wrote like that. Yrs ago, my 24 yod's comp class used it and it was torture for her to reduce her writing to that level.) 

Edited November 21, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[EKS]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I personally think They Say, I Say is remedial. I know colleges use it, but it is formulaic and low quality writing. (I'd make my kids rewrite their papers if they wrote like that. Yrs ago, my 24 yod's comp class used it and it was torture for her to reduce her writing to that level.) 

Yes, well, of course you're right, and I definitely agree that the "moves" They Say / I Say teaches are idiotic.  But many, many college students (and even graduate students in the humanities!) have absolutely no idea how to deal with proper source attribution.  They Say / I Say does a good job explaining what this is and why it is necessary--that it is about a conversation and not just about plagiarism.  It also helps students understand that doing this properly is something that can be learned.  

[regentrude]

On 11/21/2022 at 3:31 PM, Farrar said:

A course that's heavy on grammar and mechanics usually looks remedial to colleges if they peek under the hood via course descriptions. They won't always, but there it is. Kids are expected to mostly know the basics and be practicing it through their own writing at this point. Literature should be a key element for at least most of the core English courses in high school. 

I agree with that - however, it is ironic that college composition I courses are teaching to a large extent basic grammar and writing mechanics. You'd think subject-verb agreement and active/passive voice would be sorted by 8th grade; alas, stuff like that is covered in the mandatory freshmen composition classes and very necessarily so, according to the instructors.

[regentrude]

For my kids, I designed integrated history/literature courses where my kids read and discussed the literature of the historic period we studied and wrote either literary analysis or research papers on topics of their choice.
We did not cover any basic language mechanics in highschool. I critiqued their writing and would point out if there were (very isolated) language mechanics issues.

[Brittany1116]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:29 PM, cintinative said:

I think it depends on if you think that your child needs more grammar practice.  There is some of that on the ACT, so that might be a reason to keep it in the queue, but I think most people would say grammar is sort of folded into the writing instruction in high school.

 

 

Thanks. I think he is pretty strong in that area, but ACT/SAT prep book on the side might be a good idea. 

On 11/21/2022 at 2:31 PM, lewelma said:

 

Point being, you have a lot of flexibility for what counts as 'English'. 

 

Thank you. I have no memories of high school English or ENC 1101/1102 except reading The Metamorphosis and Portrait of Dorian Gray. I don't remember anything else I did. 

On 11/21/2022 at 4:10 PM, Lori D. said:

I teach high school Lit. & Comp courses at my local homeschool co-op. I teach for college prep, and many of my students are doing DE in 11th and 12th grades. What my credit-worthy courses include:

Literature
- reading, discussing, analyzing (my weekly lessons provide lit. info, and guided thinking (NOT comprehension) questions)
- variety of types of literature: novels, novellas, short stories, poetry, plays, essays
- variety of genres, variety of author time periods/locations 
- literary devices
- topics in literature (major themes/ideas; genres & conventions; etc.)
- background info on specific works/author/times


Writing -- review of the basics
Because I never know what students have covered previously, we cover the following foundational ideas, and practice with in-class activities and exercises, and then they usually are able to apply to the assignment:

- familiarity with types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive)
- what makes a complete sentence
- basic paragraph structure
- essay structure
- MLA formatting
- citing sources -- plagiarism; valid vs. invalid sources; in-text citations; Works Cited page
- writing process -- brainstorm, organize, rough draft, revise, proof-edit
- types of brainstorming/organizing helps (outline, graphic organizer, mind map, write out thoughts in response to prompt...)
- types of revision (big fixes)
• sentence fixes  -- run-ons, fragments, grammatical issues
• structure (of essay) fixes -- add, remove/combine, move
-- add what's missing
-- remove what's not working or is a repeat
-- combine several sentences saying similar things into a single strong specific sentence
-- move sentences/paragraphs as needed for stronger more logical structure and smoother flow
• style fixes
-- replace vague/repeated words with specific/vivid word
-- vary sentence structure from time to time for reading interest; etc.
- proof-editing checklist ("little fixes") -- capitalization, punctuation, spelling, typos, doubled word/missing word, formatting fixes


Writing assignments
Usually it takes me 2 years to get through all of the types of assignments, as some of the assignments we do several versions of during the year -- example: I usually have them do several different types of literary analysis essays over the course of the year, to have a way of getting more of their thinking/analysis on the literature we are reading.

- "real life" writing -- resume, cover letter
- news article
- descriptive essay
- personal narrative essay
- process paper ("how to")
- definition essay (explanation of a term or idea, with supporting examples)
- informational research paper with citations
- comparison essay
- opinion essay ("position paper") 
- SAT/ACT timed essay (note: SAT dropped their essay in 2021, and the ACT essay is optional -- but is very specific in what they want)
- college application and/or scholarship application essay
- short oral presentation with power point or slideshow (many college classes now expect this as one of their assignments)
- reader response papers
- literary analysis essay (analysis of character; theme; key quotation; literary element; etc.)
- cause and effect essay
- problem/solution essay
- argumentative research paper with citations


I don't directly incorporate grammar into my teaching or class assignments because:
1. I figure they have learned all the grammar needed prior to high school
2. We actually put grammar to use in the revision (sentence structure, grammar usage) and proof-editing (capitalization, punctuation) stages

Thank you Lori! This is the kind of list I was attempting to create in my head. I appreciate you being so thorough in your examples. 

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

For my kids, I designed integrated history/literature courses where my kids read and discussed the literature of the historic period we studied and wrote either literary analysis or research papers on topics of their choice.
We did not cover any basic language mechanics in highschool. I critiqued their writing and would point out if there were (very isolated) language mechanics issues.

This is how I was leaning as well, and it is the reason I didn't mention history in my original post. He needs a year each world and American, and I was looking to integrate them somehow. We have done the same thing for a few years now. 

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

... I have no memories of high school English or ENC 1101/1102 except reading The Metamorphosis and Portrait of Dorian Gray. I don't remember anything else I did. ...

Yes, you absolutely have flexibility. I've seen people design the lit. portion of their English credit around a particular interest of the student:

- plays, for a theater-based student
- focus on short stories and/or poetry
- focus on a particular genre of interest -- sci-fi, fantasy, dystopia, fairy tales, the "Roots of Steampunk"
- focus on a particular author or location/time period -- 19th century British female authors, e.g.
- a "potpourri" of works that are inspiring, challenging, show life lessons, etc.
- works drawn from a standard "college bound reading list"
- works to complement the history time period -- American lit, ancient, medieval/renaissance, early modern, or 20th century world, etc.

I teach a variety of high school Lit. & Comp. classes at my local homeschool co-op. All are self-designed. Two of my favorites:
- Journey Through Middle-earth -- Lord of the Rings trilogy + several medieval classics
- Other Worlds -- classic sci-fi, fantasy, and speculative fiction
 

3 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

...Thank you Lori! This is the kind of list I was attempting to create in my head. I appreciate you being so thorough in your examples...

Yea! Glad that was what you were looking for and that it was helpful! 😄 

 

3 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

... [integrated History/Literature] is how I was leaning as well... He needs a year each world and American, and I was looking to integrate them somehow...

Easy to do. Lots of past threads with ideas for booklists. Or, there are curricula out there for World Lit. and American Lit., if you want something already laid out to plug in alongside your History. And, there are some curricula that do that integration for you, so you have both a History and a Lit. credit upon creation. Or you can go "modular" as @Farrar suggested above, and outsource some elements (book discussion or writing) from time to time, if that is helpful.

Do you like DIY? Happy to help with book ideas to go with your World and American history years! 😄 

(OR... did you mean you were looking to integrate the World and American histories??)

Wishing you all the BEST as you plan! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Lori D.

[Brittany1116]

24 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

 

Easy to do. Lots of past threads with ideas for booklists. Or, there are curricula out there for World Lit. and American Lit., if you want something already laid out to plug in alongside your History. And, there are some curricula that do that integration for you, so you have both a History and a Lit. credit upon creation. Or you can go "modular" as @Farrar suggested above, and outsource some elements (book discussion or writing) from time to time, if that is helpful.

Do you like DIY? Happy to help with book ideas to go with your World and American history years! 😄 

(OR... did you mean you were looking to integrate the World and American histories??)

Wishing you all the BEST as you plan! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Thanks again. We have accidentally discovered we like to cobble together history and reading/lit. As he works through history, I pull titles from the history book recommendations, from Sonlight lists, from IEW lists, etc. Sometimes I just add books I liked or that I expect he would enjoy. He much prefers nonfiction and historical fiction to any other genres, so it has been a natural fit.

Book ideas for either year of history are welcome!

Edited November 23, 2022 by Brittany1116

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

Thanks again. We have accidentally discovered we like to cobble together history and reading/lit. As he works through history, I pull titles from the history book recommendations, from Sonlight lists, from IEW lists, etc. Sometimes I just add books I liked or that I expect he would enjoy. He much prefers nonfiction and historical fiction to any other genres, so it has been a natural fit.

Book ideas for either year of history are welcome!

Fun!

And, is this for middle school, or later on for high school? (That changes possible recommendations 😉 )

If this is for middle school... just an FYI: many colleges want 1 credit of the Social Studies to be American History. AND some of those colleges ALSO want that credit to have been completed in the 4 years before admission as a college freshman -- so, done somewhere in 9th-12th grade. 

You can do high school level American History in 8th grade and "bring it up" onto the transcript -- but just be aware that there may be a few colleges that might not accept that as part of their required college admission set of credits for eligibility.

[Brittany1116]

Oh no, definitely 9-12 for this. He did A.H. in 3rd and now in 7th but plans to do a year in HS as well.

8 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Fun!

And, is this for middle school, or later on for high school? (That changes possible recommendations 😉 )

If this is for middle school... just an FYI: many colleges want 1 credit of the Social Studies to be American History. AND some of those colleges ALSO want that credit to have been completed in the 4 years before admission as a college freshman -- so, done somewhere in 9th-12th grade. 

You can do high school level American History in 8th grade and "bring it up" onto the transcript -- but just be aware that there may be a few colleges that might not accept that as part of their required college admission set of credits for eligibility.