Math for my 5th grader - should I go down a grade (he is in a grade above for math) to rebuild his foundation and confidence?

[Ting Tang]

My son completed grades 5 & 6 Master Books math last year.  He spent a lot of time on fractions, decimals, ratios, percents, etc.  It was a mistake to choose that curriculum. It is very light, though it does catch up quite a bit by grade 6.

I decided to switch the kids to Singapore math this year.

We are very early into the school year, and I am struggling.  My oldest is struggling with Primary 6 Standards early into the Algebra unit.  Yesterday he was crying.  He couldn't figure out very simple equations.  Some have stated this is a difficult unit and to just get through it.  The rest of 6A honestly looks fine to me and he has covered a lot of the concepts since this is also grade 6 math, but now I am starting to wonder if we should just drop down to 5th grade math for him and choose something I have more confidence in teaching, too.  I hate to "go backwards," but honestly, he is not the type of kid to want to work hard at math.  He wants to get it done.  He even said Abeka math would be better, but I am looking at Christian Light Education again.  I really hoped he could take Algebra by 7th or 8th grade, but if we go to grade level math, I suppose that may not be an option any longer.  Maybe I need to let go of that goal since he isn't the studious type anyway?  Let him be great at grade level math?  

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Green Bean]

We hate all flavors of Singapore here, having tried them all. Look at a different program.

BJU Math is awesome and our favorite of everything we have tried. (And we have tried pretty much every one.) I like the 4th editions best, but nothing wrong with the 3rd. Order from a Homeworks Consultant to save the most cash. Video lessons are amazing, if a tad long. But they do free you up.

CLE is good, if kids take the placement test and start where they place, but it has a TON of problems each day. Yeah, people say cross them out, but then why are you using a spiral program? You can get through 2 levels/year by doing a lesson a day then a quiz AND the next lesson. Do lessons 16-17 on the LU test day. BTDT. It worked well.

Sometimes just going back is the best choice. Better to have a solid foundation than keep trying to build on the sand and be washed away down the road.

[Alice Lamb]

If the rest of the book looks to be appropriate for him, changing curriculums completely seems like overkill. Why not just pause Singapore for a while to work on this concept in another way?

If the whole concept of algebraic equations is totally new, this is a difficult concept.  I can think of several things that would introduce it more slowly.  The Hands on Equations (Borenson) program is often recommended as a supplement. In the way Singapore talks about learning, it's between manipulative and visual levels.  There's the basic programs introduces the concepts and the Verbal Problems book for applying equations to word problems.  He probably wouldn't need to do it all before he would be ready to try the Singapore 6A unit again.  

Another option would be to add either Singapore's Challenging Word Problems or Process Skills in Problem Solving at a much lower level than his main program, say book 3 or 4.  These teach the Singapore "bar method" for setting up word problems.  You and he could work on that for a while and then explore how the bar method can be re-written with variables.

Less obviously about variables and equations, but developing the same kinds of reasoning is Balance Benders. Balance Benders look like logic puzzles, but focus on the concepts of "equals means the same value" and simplifying a problem by doing the same thing to both sides.  I don't have Miquon in front of me, but there are similar problems somewhere in the yellow or purple book.  The rest of those books would be mostly way too easy and look  too "young."

 

 

[Mona]

I’ve used CLE math for my 3 children. The LightUnits are written to the student, so if you have independent readers, it is possible for them to do math on their own. My oldest always got math done on his own. My middle child was a very creative, right-brained child and needed me to sit with her through the new stuff which didn’t take long and then she could do the rest of the lesson on her own. My youngest also doesn’t like to do math (or anything school), but he is getting better, so it might not be the answer to your math problems, but if your child is placed well and feels comfortable enough, he would be able to do math mostly or entirely on his own. I bring this up because I saw your other post about schooling 4 children. If you could get math done independently, it would free your time and your child wouldn’t have to wait for you to do math. 

You really don’t need to worry about losing track with it because there is a quiz every 5th and 10th lesson and a test at around lesson 15 or 16 for each LU, so you’ll know how they are doing if you check those right away. You can always just buy one LU where he places and give it a try. If it doesn’t work for you, it’s not a huge investment.

[hollyhock2]

If the rest of the book looks fine, would it be possible to skip this part and move on to the rest? Maybe revisit this part toward the end of the year? If that doesn't work and it continues to go badly, then I would begin considering something else. Don't worry about where he'll end up in math in a few years from now. It's more important that he get things solidly now and is able to move forward from there. 🙂

[keirin]

I'm also using 6A Singapore Standards Edition with my twins this year, and I HATED the algebra unit! 🙂 After reviewing the teacher's guide (I really wish they had made a HIG for this level like they did the rest!), I decided I would use other resources to introduce this. We worked through Carnegie Learning's Advanced 6th grade algebraic expressions section and then I added in the Expressions & Equations section from Beast Academy 5A (which we had done LAST year, but we are going through it quickly as a review).

I intend to go back to the Singapore book in another two weeks when we finish all of that, but I must say I haven't been impressed with it either. I feel like the way it is presented is confusing, even though the topic itself really isn't so difficult. 

[SilverMoon]

We loved SM! 🙂 If the rest of the book looks doable, I vote for shelving it while working through Hands on Equations (the core program and then the verbal problems book). HoE is a supplement that he'll likely fly through in a few weeks. Then pick SM back up. 🙂

[Guest]

If his confidence is being damaged, yes, I would do something different, at least for a season. You can always go back to SM later if you want. But it’s not worth making him feel like he’s bad at math…

[Dianthus]

He's in 5th, struggling in a 6th grade math in different challenging curriculum? Try something else, and yes, go back to his actual grade level. Maybe spiral for more review.

I use abeka math for elementary. If I used something else, it would be Horizon. I am a big believer in spiral math programs. I supplement by sometimes reading aloud LOF and using manipulatives and games from rightstart and box cars and one eyed jacks. I've supplemented with BA also, generally for summers. In grade 7, I changed to saxon and plan to continue that through high school.

I believe math mammoth is also spiral. Saxon is spiral and sort of set up for independence. Maybe saxon could help you to be more hands off and have more time for other kids.

 

[caffeineandbooks]

6 hours ago, keirin said:

I'm also using 6A Singapore Standards Edition with my twins this year, and I HATED the algebra unit! 🙂 After reviewing the teacher's guide (I really wish they had made a HIG for this level like they did the rest!),

I have the HIG for grade 6.  It's the same Jennifer Hoerst series as all the others, and I purchased from Rainbow Resource.  Hope this helps 🙂

[Ting Tang]

Thank you everyone! I feel like we didn’t have the best math year last year, which makes me worry for the rest of SM. I feel like there isn’t enough explicit instruction? I do feel the pictorials would be amazing if it had more teaching help for both myself and fit him. So I’m torn. CLE looks good, except the workload looks heavy? I’ve looked at Math Mammoth and HOE for algebra help. I liked the revised abeka, but they haven’t gotten to the older grades? 

[8filltheheart]

Fwiw, my avg strong math kids (I have some really strong math kids for reference, so here I am talking about strong math students but not on par with my current 7th grader taking geometry) complete Horizons 6 in 6th grade, MUS alg in 7th as pre-alg, and then move on to Foersters alg in 8th.  Completing a 5th grade program in 5th and a 6th grade program in 6th, pre-alg in 7th means alg in 8th. 

It is totally counterproductive to push a child to the point of crying in order to accelerate math.  It will simply undermine their confidence and make them hate it.  

Hands On Equations' Verbal Book is great for introducing algebraic thinking via word problems.  Zaccaro's  Challenge Math: For the Elementary and Middle School Student: is another good supplement.  You can use a more independent math text and then supplement with a couple of challenging math problems per day.  (My current 6th grader is working through Horizons 6 and 2-3 HOE word problems per day.  Horizons incorporates very simple variable problems starting in 3rd grade.  But they are simple equations.  HOE takes it up a notch and has them applying the concepts to simple alg word problems.  It makes the transition to alg pretty painless.

[Malam]

Singapore 6 expects students have multiple years of modeling experience, so it can be pretty hard. I would suggest giving them him the math mammoth end of year tests for grades 4 and 5 (and 6 and possibly 7 if he does well) to see if he has weaknesses that need remediation with a revisit to grade 5 math or if it's just a bad fit with Singapore math 6.

I would suggest looking at Math Mammoth grades 5 or 6 for the "pre" in prealgebra (which might be strong thanks to spending two years on it qith MB) and MM 7 (or HoE as a supplement) for the "algebra" in prealgebra

Edited August 28, 2022 by Malam

[keirin]

17 hours ago, caffeineandbooks said:

I have the HIG for grade 6.  It's the same Jennifer Hoerst series as all the others, and I purchased from Rainbow Resource.  Hope this helps 🙂

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm using the Standards Edition, so this level seems to only have a Teacher's Guide and not a HIG. I like the HIGs I've used better but the Teacher's Guide is somewhat helpful.

This version:

https://www.rainbowresource.com/category/2471/Math-6-Semester-A-Primary-Math-SE.html

[Brittany1116]

@Ting Tang you can use CLE placement test, or you can order book 501 and see how he does since the -01 books are always review. There are approximately 30 problems a day in CLE 500s.

[EKS]

On 8/27/2022 at 10:40 AM, Ting Tang said:

My oldest is struggling with Primary 6 Standards early into the Algebra unit. 

Switching into Singapore at level 6 is not something I'd do.  

I'd take a look at Derek Owens.  His prealgebra course is excellent and just the thing for a kid who needs a great big review of arithmetic as well as a dip into more advanced stuff.

[8filltheheart]

13 minutes ago, EKS said:

Switching into Singapore at level 6 is not something I'd do.  

I'd take a look at Derek Owens.  His prealgebra course is excellent and just the thing for a kid who needs a great big review of arithmetic as well as a dip into more advanced stuff.

This might be a great solution for this poster.  She is completely overwhelmed.  If DO is a match level-wise, it might be a good solution in terms of math instruction and helping her with time management.  

[Ting Tang]

9 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

@Ting Tang you can use CLE placement test, or you can order book 501 and see how he does since the -01 books are always review. There are approximately 30 problems a day in CLE 500s.

Do you know when order of operations is taught? I found something in the 500s, but it just says something about a calculator? 

[Ting Tang]

31 minutes ago, EKS said:

Switching into Singapore at level 6 is not something I'd do.  

I'd take a look at Derek Owens.  His prealgebra course is excellent and just the thing for a kid who needs a great big review of arithmetic as well as a dip into more advanced stuff.

 

17 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

This might be a great solution for this poster.  She is completely overwhelmed.  If DO is a match level-wise, it might be a good solution in terms of math instruction and helping her with time management.  

Thank you both! I have looked at that before. I think we’re going to try CLE and do 5th grade. I would like if it could be outsourced, but I’m not sure online would be good just yet. 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, Ting Tang said:

I would like if it could be outsourced, but I’m not sure online would be good just yet. 

The way DO's courses are structured, it is easy to do a hybrid of online and with mom.  So for prealgebra, my son and I watched the first few videos of each lesson together and then instead of watching DO go through a bunch of example* problems, we did them together (on the couch with me writing).  Then my son would do the practice problems independently.  As a bonus, having DO do the grading (of the quizzes, tests, and exams) eliminated a whole lot of arguing!

That year we did DO prealgebra was one of our best math years in terms of everyone's enjoyment.

*There are five types of problems in DO's courses.  Example problems are worked by DO in the videos.  Practice problems are worked by the student after they encounter the example problems.  They are checked against the solutions provided.  Quizzes (called "homework" or "HW" by DO) are assigned after every few lessons (sometimes more or less often) and are graded by DO.  Tests are given at the end of every chapter and are graded by DO.  Exams are given midway through the course and again at the end and are graded by DO.  There is also an option to do the grading yourself.

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, I don't really consider DO an online class.  His courses are more like video instruction and independent work.  The classes are completely asynchronous.  Students can work at their own pace and take as much or as little time for every lesson.  Online classes usually have meeting times, fixed assignment dates, etc.  If cost is a problem, you can choose the self-grading option.  I'm not sure what it is for the lower level courses, but for pre-cal it is $30/mo.

ETA: we must have been typing at the same time.  I agree with EKS.

Edited August 29, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[Mona]

18 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Do you know when order of operations is taught? I found something in the 500s, but it just says something about a calculator? 

I looked at the scope and sequence and looked it up in that Light Unit. It starts in LU503, Lesson 3. 

[Brittany1116]

I was going to pull out my TMs to look but Mona got it. I 👍🏻

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all! Well, we will see where we get with CLE. Then we will keep DO as an option. I am out of town, so sorry for my brief replies. I appreciate the help! 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

FWIW, I don't really consider DO an online class.  His courses are more like video instruction and independent work.  The classes are completely asynchronous.  Students can work at their own pace and take as much or as little time for every lesson.  Online classes usually have meeting times, fixed assignment dates, etc.  If cost is a problem, you can choose the self-grading option.  I'm not sure what it is for the lower level courses, but for pre-cal it is $30/mo.

ETA: we must have been typing at the same time.  I agree with EKS.

Yes, I can confirm that it’s $30/month for the self graded for lower level classes, too (we’re doing Algebra 1) — thank you to the Hive for helping me figure that out.