s/o from Ukraine: Energy dependence / independence as *National Security* issue

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

 

 

Which is why I'm interested in mechanisms within the federal / state / local tax systems -- that is one of the places where there CAN be "nudges" that begin to make those micro-household-level decisions more aligned with national energy independence.

So in your case... at the FEDERAL level

... the federal government has in effect underwritten ~25-30% of the upfront capital costs?

 

... and then at the town level

there's a (fairly modest, it would seem?) advantageous treatment of the upgrade for assessment purposes.

But the town-operated power provider gives you a 1-1 credit for the excess energy you generate in sunny times, which I think (?) is quite generous compared to the rebates given by private electricity providers, or by the various intermediation companies that have popped up who install & own panels that they install on people's roofs and thereafter take a portion of rebates while providing a stream of rental/other payments to the homeowner.

I think town-operated power providers are unusual?  At least in my state. I believe Wallingford is the only town in the state that organizes this way (and manufacturers set up there explicitly because electricity is both cheaper, and less volatile, there).

 

There is nothing available from your state, then?  I think CT has, or at least used to have, some state level rebates as well.

 

Federal government- yes! We claim the install on our tax return and a percentage is refunded. The percentage depends on the year the install was completed. 

State government- no incentives right now, sadly. The property tax exemption is a state law, but those are assessed at the county level.

Town operated electricity is unusual. We love it, though. I think it used to be more common.  It’s less than big company provider, incredibly good service and outages are extremely rare and usually due to ice bringing down a line. Most residential lines are buried, though, so it isn’t a huge issue. Older neighborhoods have overhead lines, but new builds must have hurried lines. 

You are correct that 1:1 net metering rate at retail is really good. It was a matter of discussion last year at the town council level with one councilman wanting to change it to wholesale, the idea wasn’t even voted on after discussion, though. We think that person didn’t understand the system overall. A lot of providers, from what I understand, buy back at the wholesale cost, not retail. Duke Energy does it based on demand, tied to the time of day - there’s a weird calculation to that that goes into effect next year, I believe. I don’t keep up with their news well, unless it’s about their nuclear power plants. 

[Pam in CT]

re wholly owned panels not tied into the grid

2 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

We owned our own solar panels but were not tied into the grid. We had our battery bank. Paid for out of pocket- no grants or tax incentives.

If I could ask - were you not tied into the grid because your location was sufficiently remote that the grid wasn't available, or because you wanted to be wholly independent of the grid, or were you on the grid but just didn't connect the solar panels to it? Or some other reason?

 

re town-provided power

43 minutes ago, TechWife said:

...Town operated electricity is unusual. We love it, though. I think it used to be more common.  It’s less than big company provider, incredibly good service and outages are extremely rare and usually due to ice bringing down a line. Most residential lines are buried, though, so it isn’t a huge issue. Older neighborhoods have overhead lines, but new builds must have hurried lines....

Yeah, it's interesting here -- CT is not generally a manufacturing center because the COL is comparatively high; but we know senior decisionmakers in several manufacturing companies that chose Wallingford as their location specifically because the cost of power is apparently significantly lower, and stabler, than elsewhere in the state. So it's a way for the town to attract employers into their area, and in so doing increase the tax base and so on. A sidebar to the national security issue, but interesting.  (I just looked it up and apparently Groton also has municipal power.)

 

 

re 1:1 metering

43 minutes ago, TechWife said:

...You are correct that 1:1 net metering rate at retail is really good. It was a matter of discussion last year at the town council level with one councilman wanting to change it to wholesale, the idea wasn’t even voted on after discussion, though. We think that person didn’t understand the system overall. A lot of providers, from what I understand, buy back at the wholesale cost, not retail. Duke Energy does it based on demand, tied to the time of day - there’s a weird calculation to that that goes into effect next year, I believe. I don’t keep up with their news well, unless it’s about their nuclear power plants. 

That would another policy lever that could really shift incentives, right? In your town, there must be a pretty strong town-level commitment to support the development of solar, and because the town is the power provider it's straightforward to set the metering rate wherever they want. But states could get to the same place, or at least a *more advantageous place* to people who invested in panels through regulation.

 

[Hilltopmom]

21 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re wholly owned panels not tied into the grid

If I could ask - were you not tied into the grid because your location was sufficiently remote that the grid wasn't available, or because you wanted to be wholly independent of the grid, or were you on the grid but just didn't connect the solar panels to it? Or some other reason?

 

re town-provided power

Yeah, it's interesting here -- CT is not generally a manufacturing center because the COL is comparatively high; but we know senior decisionmakers in several manufacturing companies that chose Wallingford as their location specifically because the cost of power is apparently significantly lower, and stabler, than elsewhere in the state. So it's a way for the town to attract employers into their area, and in so doing increase the tax base and so on. A sidebar to the national security issue, but interesting.  (I just looked it up and apparently Groton also has municipal power.)

 

 

re 1:1 metering

That would another policy lever that could really shift incentives, right? In your town, there must be a pretty strong town-level commitment to support the development of solar, and because the town is the power provider it's straightforward to set the metering rate wherever they want. But states could get to the same place, or at least a *more advantageous place* to people who invested in panels through regulation.

 

Originally our home was built in an intentional hippie community in the woods- all the homes were completely off grid- no power available on the road.

Eventually power was run up our road and we hooked up to it so we could charge our batteries if we needed to. When we brought our medically fragile child home we hooked a few outlets to the grid power for medical equipment and an air conditioner. 
 

grid tied wasn’t an option originally. I’m not sure if the new owners hooked up or not

[Carol in Cal.]

The other thing about ROI is that not only does it shift with open market energy costs, but it often shifts with regulatory changes.  For instance I remember reading in Nevada a few years back that the laws around how much utility companies have to pay consumers for solar energy was changed by the local PUC to be ‘cheapest electric rate cost’ even though the generation was mostly done during peak demand/peak price periods of the day.  This extended the payoff time for existing systems considerably, and I imagine that those electric bills being so high after having paid so much for solar installations must have really rankled.

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Kolya said:

 

Reported.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Catwoman
deleted spam link from quote

[KSera]

Article in the NYT yesterday about Californians leaving the grid altogether and going solar/battery for the house:

Frustrated With Utilities, Some Californians Are Leaving the Grid

For some (new builds in particular), apparently it ends up actually cheaper to do this, because it can be so expensive to hook a new home into the grid.

On 3/11/2022 at 11:53 AM, Pawz4me said:

What is a heat pump and how does it work? (Carrier)

Heat pumps are widely used throughout the south, or at least my part of it. We had an oil furnace in my childhood home, but as an adult I've almost always had heat pumps. We have two now, one for each level of the house. Ours have heat strips (often called "emergency heat" here), but even though our temps are often well below freezing we rarely have to use the heat strips.

I think this is a good example of the principle that something not being a good choice for someone in one situation isn't a reason to argue against it for everyone. I'm going to guess heat pumps aren't so popular up North where it gets very cold, but they're great for the energy savings in much of the country. Our A/C finally failed last year and needed replacing, so we replaced it with a heat pump, but kept our furnace so that we can use the heat pump as long as the outside temp is above 40 degrees, but if the temp drops lower than that, the furnace will kick on and heat the house.