AOPS Math

[Ting Tang]

I ruled out AOPS for next year but am revisiting the idea. It’s why I’m not buying curriculum until we’re done with this school year. I change my mind a lot. My rising 5th grader would take AOPS pre-algebra. After that, can anyone explain how the AOPS sequence compares to traditional Algebra- Geom-Alg II? What classes are the equivalent of those or take you through the material? Thanks! 

[daijobu]

Standard Sequence:

1. Prealgebra
2. Intro Algebra
3. Intro Geometry
4. Intermediate Algebra
5. Precalculus
6. Calculus

Extra bonus classes, optional but  highly recommended:

1. Intro Counting and Probability
2. Intro Number Theory
3. Intermediate Counting and Probability

Here's more info from AoPS about their recommended sequence.

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, daijobu said:

Standard Sequence:

1. Prealgebra
2. Intro Algebra
3. Intro Geometry
4. Intermediate Algebra
5. Precalculus
6. Calculus

Extra bonus classes, optional but  highly recommended:

1. Intro Counting and Probability
2. Intro Number Theory
3. Intermediate Counting and Probability

Here's more info from AoPS about their recommended sequence.

Thank you so much! This is helpful. If he were to transfer to a school, I would want to make sure they wouldn’t misplace him.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Ting Tang

[kirstenhill]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you so much! This is helpful. If he were to transfer to a school, I would want to make sure they wouldn’t misplace him.

One small thing to note - In our experience, the Introduction to Algebra book covers more than a typical Algebra I class in a public school, and then the Intermediate Algebra may also not be exactly equivalent to all public school Algebra II classes, because it does not cover any Trigonometry (but I think must cover additional topics beyond a typical public school Alg II).  I believe that in the AOPS sequence, Trig is covered in the Pre-Calc class, but in many public school classes (especially at an honors level), some Trig is in both Algebra II and Pre-Calc. 

After finishing Introduction to Algebra, my DS14 was able to self-study a few additional chapters of a public school Algebra II honors text, and then pass an exam to test out of Alg II at the high school he wanted to enter and move directly into Pre-Calc as a 9th grader (he had taken geometry also in 8th grade).  

[Ting Tang]

23 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

One small thing to note - In our experience, the Introduction to Algebra book covers more than a typical Algebra I class in a public school, and then the Intermediate Algebra may also not be exactly equivalent to all public school Algebra II classes, because it does not cover any Trigonometry (but I think must cover additional topics beyond a typical public school Alg II).  I believe that in the AOPS sequence, Trig is covered in the Pre-Calc class, but in many public school classes (especially at an honors level), some Trig is in both Algebra II and Pre-Calc. 

After finishing Introduction to Algebra, my DS14 was able to self-study a few additional chapters of a public school Algebra II honors text, and then pass an exam to test out of Alg II at the high school he wanted to enter and move directly into Pre-Calc as a 9th grader (he had taken geometry also in 8th grade).  

Thank you so much for sharing this! Right now, my son is completing Master Books grade 6 math. MB starts off gentle, but it is pretty much grade level now. My son can do a lot of the assessment for the Intro, but maybe we ought to start with the pre-alg?  I am so tired of fractions… lol  A worry for me is not having a teacher manual, but I do like the free AOPS videos I’ve watched…

Edited February 11, 2022 by Ting Tang

[EmilyGF]

WRT school transferring - they never transfer perfectly. Both my kids were tested when they went to high school and got placed based on tests, not lists of classes they had done. This required reviewing first, though, because they were basically given finals for every class, starting at Algebra, until they got less than 80%.

With this process, there are kids who are taking Algebra for the second time because they didn't learn it well enough in middle school. It makes a lot more sense than the process my school had when I was a student, that placed you based on transcript and not actual learning!

Emily

[Clemsondana]

What I've learned about where basic intro to trig goes...the SAT has a few trig questions (basic stuff - like, kid learned it in just a few minutes from the SAT study guide) so many schools now put that little bit of trig in algebra 2 so that kids will have seen it, since many will take the SAT after algebra 2 but before trig.  in many programs, including AoPS, matrix math is now part of precal instead of algebra 2, where it was when I was a student.  

My kid started young and did the sequence listed above.  We moved more slowly through pre-A and A, taking 1 1/2 school years instead of 1 (on the flip side, we only do at-home subjects 4 days/week since we have a co-op day the other day - as a high schooler, kid comes home and works, but as a 6th grader the did not).  We used intro to number theory and intro to probability in middle school to fill out the other 1/2 year in those 1.5 year programs.  We may have taken 1.5 years with the second algebra, too.  My kid liked to work in AoPS and Life of Fred simultaneously because they liked seeing the material presented 2 different ways, and doing 2 maths takes a bit longer. It's an unusual combo, but it made kid happy and we had time so it made sense to do it how kid preferred.  In precal, kid started in August and works 4 days most weeks, 5 days some weeks, on math and will finish by the end of February.  We no longer do most end-of-chapter challenge problems.  I think they are great, but that is not where kid wants to put their energy and focus, and that is fine.  

[Cake and Pi]

AoPS doesn't exactly line up with regular public school math. It follows a different order and includes a bunch of topics that aren't in the standard PS sequence. I'll list the order AoPS recommends below and then give the approximate public school equivalent. See their recommendations page for more details. https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/recommendations (eta: same as link shared by daijobu above)

1) AoPS Prealgebra
     = honors pre-algebra

2) AoPS Intro to Algebra A class/ 1st half of the book
     =roughly honors algebra I

3) AoPS Intro to Counting & Probability
     = no PS standard sequence equivalent (HIGHLY recommended before moving forward)

3.5) AoPS Intro to Number Theory
     = no PS standard sequence equivalent (not necessary, but very useful to have before moving forward, and pretty fun)

4) AoPS Intro to Algebra B class/ 2nd half of the book
     = most of honors algebra II + some non-standard topics

5) AoPS Intro to Geometry
     = honors geometry and an intro to trig

6) AoPS Intermediate Algebra
     = the last bit of honors algebra II + much of the algebra parts of honors pre-calculus + some algebra beyond high school level

7) AoPS Precalculus
     = the bulk of the trig part of honors pre-calculus + an intro to linear algebra

8 ) AoPS Intermediate Counting & Probability
     = no PS standard sequence equivalent, supposed to be similar to an intro college level C&P class

9) AoPS Intermediate Number Theory
     =  no PS standard sequence equivalent, supposed to be similar to an intro college level NT class

10) AoPS Calculus
     = AP Calculus BC = college level calculus I and calculus II

11 & 12) AoPS Olympiad Geometry and Group Theory classes
     = college level of some sort

Edited February 12, 2022 by Cake and Pi

[Ting Tang]

19 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

One small thing to note - In our experience, the Introduction to Algebra book covers more than a typical Algebra I class in a public school, and then the Intermediate Algebra may also not be exactly equivalent to all public school Algebra II classes, because it does not cover any Trigonometry (but I think must cover additional topics beyond a typical public school Alg II).  I believe that in the AOPS sequence, Trig is covered in the Pre-Calc class, but in many public school classes (especially at an honors level), some Trig is in both Algebra II and Pre-Calc. 

After finishing Introduction to Algebra, my DS14 was able to self-study a few additional chapters of a public school Algebra II honors text, and then pass an exam to test out of Alg II at the high school he wanted to enter and move directly into Pre-Calc as a 9th grader (he had taken geometry also in 8th grade).  

Thank you for making that distinction about Trig.  I'm so nervous about entering this math path because I want to make sure he will do well enough not to have to repeat classes and actually retain information.  

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

WRT school transferring - they never transfer perfectly. Both my kids were tested when they went to high school and got placed based on tests, not lists of classes they had done. This required reviewing first, though, because they were basically given finals for every class, starting at Algebra, until they got less than 80%.

With this process, there are kids who are taking Algebra for the second time because they didn't learn it well enough in middle school. It makes a lot more sense than the process my school had when I was a student, that placed you based on transcript and not actual learning!

Emily

Thank you so much for sharing.  If he returns and cannot do "dual enrollment," we will have to plan for this.  Our local k-8 school says it now teaches algebra in 8th grade, but the students have to take a placement test (no credit given, though).  If you want your child to get actual credit, they have to take the actual class off-campus at the high school...three towns away.  It's a bit of a shocker to me, at my age, because I took and honors algebra class in 8th grade and went right into Geometry my Freshman year.  

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

What I've learned about where basic intro to trig goes...the SAT has a few trig questions (basic stuff - like, kid learned it in just a few minutes from the SAT study guide) so many schools now put that little bit of trig in algebra 2 so that kids will have seen it, since many will take the SAT after algebra 2 but before trig.  in many programs, including AoPS, matrix math is now part of precal instead of algebra 2, where it was when I was a student.  

My kid started young and did the sequence listed above.  We moved more slowly through pre-A and A, taking 1 1/2 school years instead of 1 (on the flip side, we only do at-home subjects 4 days/week since we have a co-op day the other day - as a high schooler, kid comes home and works, but as a 6th grader the did not).  We used intro to number theory and intro to probability in middle school to fill out the other 1/2 year in those 1.5 year programs.  We may have taken 1.5 years with the second algebra, too.  My kid liked to work in AoPS and Life of Fred simultaneously because they liked seeing the material presented 2 different ways, and doing 2 maths takes a bit longer. It's an unusual combo, but it made kid happy and we had time so it made sense to do it how kid preferred.  In precal, kid started in August and works 4 days most weeks, 5 days some weeks, on math and will finish by the end of February.  We no longer do most end-of-chapter challenge problems.  I think they are great, but that is not where kid wants to put their energy and focus, and that is fine.  

Thank you very much for sharing and making those distinctions, too.  I have to remember that it is okay for us to take longer, especially if he is taking these classes younger.  I have glanced at the Life of Fred series and will have to look at it again.  I really just hate having to worry about testing into classes vs. having him learn good math! 

[Ting Tang]

37 minutes ago, Cake and Pi said:

AoPS doesn't exactly line up with regular public school math. It follows a different order and includes a bunch of topics that aren't in the standard PS sequence. I'll list the order AoPS recommends below and then give the approximate public school equivalent. See their recommendations page for more details. https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/recommendations (eta: same as link shared by daijobu above)

1) AoPS Prealgebra
     = honors pre-algebra

2) AoPS Intro to Algebra A class/ 1st half of the book
     =roughly honors algebra I

3) AoPS Intro to Counting & Probability
     = no PS standard sequence equivalent (HIGHLY recommended before moving forward)

3.5) AoPS Intro to Number Theory
     = no PS standard sequence equivalent (not necessary, but very useful to have before moving forward, and pretty fun)

4) AoPS Intro to Algebra B class/ 2nd half of the book
     = most of honors algebra II + some non-standard topics

5) AoPS Intro to Geometry
     = honors geometry and an intro to trig

6) AoPS Intermediate Algebra
     = the last bit of honors algebra II + much of the algebra parts of honors pre-calculus + some algebra beyond high school level

7) AoPS Precalculus
     = the bulk of the trig part of honors pre-calculus + an intro to linear algebra

8 ) AoPS Intermediate Counting & Probability
     = no PS standard sequence equivalent, supposed to be similar to an intro college level C&P class

9) AoPS Intermediate Number Theory
     =  no PS standard sequence equivalent, supposed to be similar to an intro college level NT class

10) AoPS Calculus
     = AP Calculus BC = college level calculus I and calculus II

11 & 12) AoPS Olympiad Geometry and Group Theory classes
     = college level of some sort

Thank you so much! This is very helpful.  So it is possible a student could have a gap between Algebra I & II if they took the "bonus" classes?  I see taking these classes younger provides the time for that as long as we are able to continue with homeschool math or have dual enrollment (I have no idea what that entails!).

Edited February 12, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Brittany1116]

@Ting Tang what age/grade is he? I saw you said he finished MB 6. Was that MLFLE? 

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Brittany1116 said:

@Ting Tang what age/grade is he? I saw you said he finished MB 6. Was that MLFLE? 

Hi! He is still finishing MB 6, but I think we will need to do something prior to AOPS now. He’s 10 and in the 4th grade. MLFLE has been a bit of a disappointment, but they curriculum plans two years of pre-A before algebra. We did Abeka last year. I’ve been looking at Math Mammoth grade 6, but I’d love to find something rigorous and with a teacher manual. Something that helps me plan and conduct each lesson vs. just going through workbook pages together. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Ting Tang

[8filltheheart]

You could look at the sample pages of the beginning of the book and then the sample pages that are more than 1/2 way through the book of MUS alg 1.   It is an incredibly simplified alg course that does work really well as a pre-alg course.  I would not call it rigorous (at all), but as a bridge between elementary math and alg, it has a lot of white space that makes it younger kid friendly.  It makes stepping into full-blown alg pretty painless. (I posted about this in your other thread.  I have had 8 kids go this route. )

Math-U-See Algebra 1 Student Pack | Demme Learning | 9781608263479 (rainbowresource.com)

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

You could look at the sample pages of the beginning of the book and then the sample pages that are more than 1/2 way through the book of MUS alg 1.   It is an incredibly simplified alg course that does work really well as a pre-alg course.  I would not call it rigorous (at all), but as a bridge between elementary math and alg, it has a lot of white space that makes it younger kid friendly.  It makes stepping into full-blown alg pretty painless. (I posted about this in your other thread.  I have had 8 kids go this route. )

Math-U-See Algebra 1 Student Pack | Demme Learning | 9781608263479 (rainbowresource.com)

Thanks! Oh I ended up looking at this—- to be honest, the pictures confused me a bit, or maybe I’m just really foggy on my algebra, loll. I’ll take another look. 

[wendyroo]

6 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Hi! He is still finishing MB 6, but I think we will need to do something prior to AOPS now. He’s 10 and in the 4th grade. MLFLE has been a bit of a disappointment, but they curriculum plans two years of pre-A before algebra. We did Abeka last year. I’ve been looking at Math Mammoth grade 6, but I’d love to find something rigorous and with a teacher manual. Something that helps me plan and conduct each lesson vs. just going through workbook pages together. 

Math Mammoth is not just workbook pages. It is a worktext that has thorough instruction combined with the practice problems. I have found their explanations to be very clear, incremental and well presented with pictorial representations, example problems, etc.

But you are right that it is not set up for a parent to “conduct lessons”. It is written directly to the student.

[8filltheheart]

7 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Thanks! Oh I ended up looking at this—- to be honest, the pictures confused me a bit, or maybe I’m just really foggy on my algebra, loll. I’ll take another look. 

I'm not sure what pages you looked at.  The teacher's instruction materials are in a separate book than the student workbook.  But, I'm going to be brutally honest....if MUS's questions confuse you, I don't think that AoPS is going to be a good fit for you to teach your ds.  So much of AoPS is guided discovery that it takes a lot of effort on the part of the student to master content.  It won't teach you directly how to teach and apply concepts like a traditional math program.  If you aren't strong in alg yourself, you might find it very difficult to help him if he is confused or struggling.

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Math Mammoth is not just workbook pages. It is a worktext that has thorough instruction combined with the practice problems. I have found their explanations to be very clear, incremental and well presented with pictorial representations, example problems, etc.

But you are right that it is not set up for a parent to “conduct lessons”. It is written directly to the student.

That is good to read!  I am considering switching my younger kids to something like this.  As for the conducting of lessons, it seems to be this way for most curriculums, especially in the middle to high school grades.  I feel like we need to "drill" but not "kill," lol.  That's why I like the teacher manuals, but it does look like MM has so much more than Master Books.  

[SoCal_Bear]

I'm going introduce a line thought in here about because you raised the question of keeping transferring to school as an option. A few questions for you which will matter a lot how you answer this question. Are you attempting to transfer to a public school or private school? If public school, are you in California? Are you concerned about getting high school credit for his courses? Are you planning to teach yourself or outsource? Is your local districted school following an integrated math sequence (the vast majority are)? Do you want your student to transfer seamlessly back into whatever sequence in avaialble? Does it matter to you that math acceleration is increasingly discouraged in public schools?

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by calbear

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm not sure what pages you looked at.  The teacher's instruction materials are in a separate book than the student workbook.  But, I'm going to be brutally honest....if MUS's questions confuse you, I don't think that AoPS is going to be a good fit for you to teach your ds.  So much of AoPS is guided discovery that it takes a lot of effort on the part of the student to master content.  It won't teach you directly how to teach and apply concepts like a traditional math program.  If you aren't strong in alg yourself, you might find it very difficult to help him if he is confused or struggling.

Thank you!  I think I was just looking at the cube pictorials.  I was strong in Algebra 25+ years ago, so it has been a while!  ha ha  I think the AOPS pre-algebra looks fun to play around with, but I think I would have to rely on the videos a lot.  I also wondered how to "grade" without a formal class, and I am not sure my son would do well with an online class just yet.  

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, calbear said:

I'm going introduce a line thought in here about because you raised the question of keeping transferring to public school an option. A few questions for you which will matter a lot how you answer this question. Are you attempting to transfer to a public school or private school? If public school, are you in California? Are you concerned about getting high school credit for his courses? Is your local districted school following an integrated math sequence (the vast majority are)? Do you want your student to transfer seamlessly back into whatever sequence in avaialble? Does it matter to you that math acceleration is increasingly discouraged in public school?

I am in Illinois, and my first thought is we would seek a private school first. We don't have many options in that regard, so I am not entirely certain. What I do know is both private and public schools follow a traditional sequence, at least for now.  I was told he could not get high school credit until 7/8th grade anyway.  Our local public schools are rated really low, and participation in AP classes is generally below the state average, ACT scores below the state average---and state averages are low to begin with.  😞  I've been watching the trends in math lately in other states.  I've even looked at the Archi-Math integrated math for middle school. There are no teacher manuals; just solutions, but it looks great.  My only hesitation is that *if* we do have to return him to any school, I am not sure how the transition would go.  To be completely honest, a return to a brick and mortar school would be mainly because sometimes I just feel so burned out teaching four kids. 

[Ting Tang]

2 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Have you tried beast academy?  That might be a good place to start.  You can have him do it this year online for fun as an extra to MB, and that might help you know where he’s at for AOPs.

I've looked a lot at that, actually.  Knowing my son, once the comics end....he'd probably be upset doing something so soon after/different, lol.  

[Brittany1116]

I think the pace and rigor is going to be several steps up from MB. More than compared to some other math programs. I would probably spend another year focusing on prealgebra with another curriculum. I say this based on what we have seen with MB, and my child having done a more rigorous math and going into Saxon algebra, and what has been pointed out to me here about the methods and intensity of AOPS. That's not to say yours can't handle it, but that the gap between MB 6 and AOPS algebra series looks pretty wide.

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, Brittany1116 said:

I think the pace and rigor is going to be several steps up from MB. More than compared to some other math programs. I would probably spend another year focusing on prealgebra with another curriculum. I say this based on what we have seen with MB, and my child having done a more rigorous math and going into Saxon algebra, and what has been pointed out to me here about the methods and intensity of AOPS. That's not to say yours can't handle it, but that the gap between MB 6 and AOPS algebra series looks pretty wide.

Thank you---that does seem like a great plan---I think you are absolutely right. His Abeka math was challenging, but it also had a lot of moving pieces, and we would have gone from using revised versions to unrevised---that's why I switched them.  It was a big mistake choosing MB.  Since I have been researching, though, I have learned about so many more curriculum options.  I am grateful for these forums for that reason.  

[SoCal_Bear]

@8filltheheart is correct. AOPS pre-algebra is a difficult text. It is long and thick. Often completely overwhelming to a young student because it is completely unlike any math textbook a young student would have ever encountered. It is visually not a fun textbook at all. It is very dense to get through. So if you like need pictorial presentation, this is not the curriculum for the vast majority of students. The exponents chapter (ch.2) is pretty challenging to get through, and it is right at the beginning of the book. Unless you have have student that tolerates a math textbook that is designed so that event the best students should not get more than 80-85% or so of the problem sets correct the first time through and that it is supposed to frustrate and puzzle you, this is not going to be a good fit.
For a rigorous curriculum with a teacher guide, I would suggest Singapore Dimensions. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by calbear

[Ting Tang]

2 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

Even the placement test would help you know how ready he is for AOPs.  

That's the thing, he can do a lot of it with a couple of exceptions.  But....  I think after our MB, we better do something else for a while beforehand.

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, calbear said:

@8filltheheart is correct. AOPS pre-algebra is a difficult text. It is long and thick. Often completely overwhelming to a young student because it is completely unlike any math textbook a young student would have ever encountered. It is visually not a fun textbook at all. It is very dense to get through. So if you like need pictorial presentation, this is not the curriculum for the vast majority of students. The exponents chapter (ch.2) is pretty challenging to get through, and it is right at the beginning of the book. Unless you have have student that tolerates a math textbook that is designed so that event the best students should not get more than 80-85% or so of the problem sets correct the first time through and that it is supposed to frustrate and puzzle you, this is not going to be a good fit.   

For a rigorous curriculum with a teacher guide, I would suggest Singapore Dimensions.

Thanks so much!  I was considering Singapore, too.  I think I like the idea of AOPS more than my son would at this point, though I do think it has the most engaging instructor in the videos.  My son would like him a lot.  

[SoCal_Bear]

If you are burned out from teaching and MUS was confusing and Abeka was challenging, I absolutely do not suggest you do AOPS, this is a fast track to burn out and frustration for you. 

There are videos you can use to support SM Dimensions here at https://singaporemathlive.com/dimensions/ If you have not completed SM6 or equivalent, I would consider do that first.

[Ting Tang]

3 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

It’s okay to have a lighter year… don’t feel like MB is a total waste.  You didn’t make a bad choice.  If he’s an accelerated learner then he’s going to just keep flying through whatever you give him next year.

Thank you so much for saying that.  I just feel like I slowed them down.  It does so much of the same thing for a long time, lol.

[Ting Tang]

3 minutes ago, calbear said:

If you are burned out from teaching and MUS was confusing and Abeka was challenging, I absolutely do not suggest you do AOPS, this is a fast track to burn out and frustration for you. 

There are videos you can use to support SM Dimensions here at https://singaporemathlive.com/dimensions/ If you have not completed SM6 or equivalent, I would consider do that first.

Thank you so much!  Yes, I better hold off on that path, if it is even for him. I will take a look at those videos! 

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thanks so much!  I was considering Singapore, too.  I think I like the idea of AOPS more than my son would at this point, though I do think it has the most engaging instructor in the videos.  My son would like him a lot.  

So have him watch the videos - they are free - without doing the text. And if you want him to dip his toe into AOPS while working through a different text, you could let him try Alcumus. That is AOPS's free online problem bank. Just sign him up for an account and set it up to ask him prealgebra questions. It is really a useful metric - it breaks each subject down into individual skills and shows different colored bars indicating how the student does on problems that use that concept.

[SoCal_Bear]

I really hope you don't think RR's videos are full instructional videos. They are there to support the textbook. The primary instruction is in the textbook. That's the rub is whether or not a student is ready to read a math textbook and learn from it especially a discovery based textbook. 

If you read about how most of us are using the curriculum, the students works through the chapter and the problems. The book does not instruct how to do the problem. Students are expected to intuit/discover/make leaps. Then after each problem, you are to go read through the solution carefully and understand the why. Each problem is sequenced so that students are led through a series of discoveries. There is not explicit teaching like the other other curriculum you have seen which is teach/demonstrate and then practice. At that point, you would watch the video after you work through the chapter. You work the problems in the book. Then many will work through problems in that topic on Alcumus until they reach mastery level whereever you set.

From what I recall, it is not uncommon for pre-algebra to take 18 months to complete. I had an unusual kid who moved quickly through it in 10 months, but this was an uncommon pacing. 

[SoCal_Bear]

I also don't think AOPS pre-algebra readiness test on their website is very useful at all personally. Looking at their actual sample chapters is a much better gauge. This is ch. 12. This is very typical. Don't bother with ch. 1 excerpt. It is not at all what the rest of the book is like.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/aops-cdn.artofproblemsolving.com/products/prealgebra/exc3.pdf

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, calbear said:

I really hope you don't think RR's videos are full instructional videos. They are there to support the textbook. The primary instruction is in the textbook. That's the rub is whether or not a student is ready to read a math textbook and learn from it especially a discovery based textbook. 

If you read about how most of us are using the curriculum, the students works through the chapter and the problems. The book does not instruct how to do the problem. Students are expected to intuit/discover/make leaps. Then after each problem, you are to go read through the solution carefully and understand the why. Each problem is sequenced so that students are led through a series of discoveries. There is not explicit teaching like the other other curriculum you have seen which is teach/demonstrate and then practice. At that point, you would watch the video after you work through the chapter. You work the problems in the book. Then many will work through problems in that topic on Alcumus until they reach mastery level whereever you set.

From what I recall, it is not uncommon for pre-algebra to take 18 months to complete. I had an unusual kid who moved quickly through it in 10 months, but this was an uncommon pacing. 

100%

The videos are entertaining and work through some fun examples, and they certainly do no harm, but they do not teach the material at all. I would say their primary goal is to get the student interested in the topic, to perk their interest and prepare them to dive into the very hard work of beating their head against the wall until they "discover" it for themselves.

[SoCal_Bear]

Well, now that I see you mention private school, it seems like paying for a class may be possible for you. If you really would like to consider AOPS, I would suggest you consider outsourcing this. Since you mention lively instruction, I suspect the online text based courses would not be a good fit, I would suggest you look at WTMA's AOPS pre-algebra courses. 

I went to copy the # of seats available right now. These are EST schedule. Yoo is a veteran teacher with Well Trained Mind Academy.
 

Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect 1	2022-2023 Full Year	Mon/Wed 10-11:15am	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	0	$735.00
	Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect 2	2022-2023 Full Year	Mon/Wed 12-1:15pm	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	3	$735.00
	Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect 3	2022-2023 Full Year	Tue/Thr 10-11:15am	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	5	$735.00
	Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect D	2022-2023 Full Year	Delayed	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	2	$735.00

[wendyroo]

8 minutes ago, calbear said:

I also don't think AOPS pre-algebra readiness test on their website is very useful at all personally. Looking at their actual sample chapters is a much better gauge. This is ch. 12. This is very typical. Don't bother with ch. 1 excerpt. It is not at all what the rest of the book is like.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/aops-cdn.artofproblemsolving.com/products/prealgebra/exc3.pdf

Exactly. And in that sample focus on the "teaching" for Chapter 12.1. The topic is the Pythagorean Theorem, and in the two paragraphs of instruction they make sure we all know which side of a triangle is the hypotenuse and that we can all pronounce Pythagorean. That's it. In no way shape or form do they give even a clue what the Pythagorean Theorem actually is...that is what the student is supposed to be figuring out for themselves.

This is so different than almost all other math curricula. Imagine if Saxon had a section "teaching" Simplification of Square Roots that consisted solely of "Sometimes we have to simplify square roots." And then they just left you to figure out for yourself through trial and error how to do it.

[Ting Tang]

24 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

He’ll be fine.   You really can’t make a child accelerated or stop them if they are in homeschool.  I know we like to think everything depends on us but it doesn’t 😊 .  You also just don’t know what other skills he’s gained by having a lighter math year.  

Thank you so much. That makes me feel better!

[Ting Tang]

9 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

100%

The videos are entertaining and work through some fun examples, and they certainly do no harm, but they do not teach the material at all. I would say their primary goal is to get the student interested in the topic, to perk their interest and prepare them to dive into the very hard work of beating their head against the wall until they "discover" it for themselves.

 

7 minutes ago, calbear said:

Well, now that I see you mention private school, it seems like paying for a class may be possible for you. If you really would like to consider AOPS, I would suggest you consider outsourcing this. Since you mention lively instruction, I suspect the online text based courses would not be a good fit, I would suggest you look at WTMA's AOPS pre-algebra courses. 

I went to copy the # of seats available right now. These are EST schedule. Yoo is a veteran teacher with Well Trained Mind Academy.
 

Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect 1	2022-2023 Full Year	Mon/Wed 10-11:15am	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	0	$735.00
	Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect 2	2022-2023 Full Year	Mon/Wed 12-1:15pm	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	3	$735.00
	Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect 3	2022-2023 Full Year	Tue/Thr 10-11:15am	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	5	$735.00
	Pre-Algebra (AoPS) - Sect D	2022-2023 Full Year	Delayed	Mathematics	Yoo, Dorothy	2	$735.00

Thank you both!  I am aware they are purely supplemental.  I considered the WTM academy but I think we prehaps should wait a year or so anyway for this curriculum.  The discovery approach sounds "fun' to me, but I'm still not sure how he would do with it.  I agree the assessment for AOPS seems to not be the best predictor if it is a good fit.  I may still try to get a copy of the textbooks and check them out in more details.  🙂  

[Dianthus]

6 minutes ago, calbear said:

I also don't think AOPS pre-algebra readiness test on their website is very useful at all personally. Looking at their actual sample chapters is a much better gauge. This is ch. 12. This is very typical. Don't bother with ch. 1 excerpt. It is not at all what the rest of the book is like.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/aops-cdn.artofproblemsolving.com/products/prealgebra/exc3.pdf

@Ting Tang Does your son read at this level? I don't think my ds10 would be motivated to do this much reading on his own. Ds10 is not that motivated or that attentive to get all the info after self reading.

I think you are looking for change as you have so many different subject curriculum questions. I really think, especially considering burnout, that you need to simplify. I've gone through the same searches for curriculum. You also need to look at the big picture for all your kids and figure out how much work you're making for yourself. There must be a homeschool convention near you. Try to go look at these hands on.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

24 minutes ago, Spirea said:

Does your son read at this level? I don't think my ds10 would be motivated to do this much reading on his own. Ds10 is not that motivated or that attentive to get all the info after self reading.

This is the one concern I have left regarding DS moving to AOPS PreA next year. I plan to read the chapters aloud & have him verbally guide me through working the problems on a dry-erase board, then complete the exercises in his math journal. I know not everyone has the availability to do this, though. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[Ting Tang]

37 minutes ago, Spirea said:

@Ting Tang Does your son read at this level? I don't think my ds10 would be motivated to do this much reading on his own. Ds10 is not that motivated or that attentive to get all the info after self reading.

I think you are looking for change as you have so many different subject curriculum questions. I really think, especially considering burnout, that you need to simplify. I've gone through the same searches for curriculum. You also need to look at the big picture for all your kids and figure out how much work you're making for yourself. There must be a homeschool convention near you. Try to go look at these hands on.

My oldest is an excellent reader (my next in line would definitely not be able to do this for a while), but I am pretty sure he would still want me to read his math to him.  You are right. I do not need more work for myself.  I wish he could be more independent with his math, but he literally begs me to "watch him" as he does his problems and not walk away.  I'd love to go to a convention and look at samples!  

18 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

You might want to look into zearn.org for the rest of this year.  It’s student paced, fairly rigorous, lines up to all the standards, absolutely no ads and it’s free.  My kids enjoy it whenever we’ve used it.  There are real teachers that present each lesson, with pauses for students to interact with the lesson.  Challenges for them to show they’ve mastered the lesson before moving on.  It is not “gamified” or super fun like beast academy, buts it’s still really engaging.  It’s easy to just use as a supplement.  They have k-6 out, with plans to expand 7-8 soon.  Many districts here use it, and that’s how I came across it.  Our state is rigorous.

It is very similar in teaching to math mammoth & Singapore .  The only reason we stopped using it regularly is because I needed no screens this year.  Easy switch to math mammoth.

I have not heard of this but will check it out!  Thank you! I fear Illinois is pretty far behind.  It has a lot of trouble with its school, the exceptions being upper middle class suburban schools. 

 

18 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

This is the one concern I have left regarding DS moving to AOPS PreA next year. I plan to read the chapters aloud & have him verbally guide me through working the problems on a dry-erase board, then complete the exercises in his math journal. I know not everyone has the availability to do this, though. 

I personally think that sounds like a great plan!  I have four kids, and I am at arm's reach of them for all of their subjects, and it has just worn me out. I tried combining the two older two into their "other, non-core" subjects, but they are so far apart ability wise, it didn't work out.

[SoCal_Bear]

If you want discovery approach, a far more accessible curriculum for younger accelerated students would be Jacobs' Algebra or Arbor's curriculum starting with Jousting Armadillos. The first 1/3 of Jacobs is pre-algebra. Many students have gone from from from MM6 or MM7 or SM5 ot SM6 directly into Jacobs. Even though this is currently published by Master Books, it has nothing to do with MB. There are DVDs that go along with it. Ignore the fact that it is published by them. Or if you really dislike the company. Look for old copies on the used market and old Dr. Callahan DVDs. MB only acquired the right to publich in the last couple of years..

https://www.masterbooks.com/jacobs-math-series

A highly overlooked, but very enjoyable book from Harold Jacobs which is used by many accelerated math learners is Harold Jacob's Mathematics: A Human Endeavor. It can be used alongside pre-algebra work and explore many topics in math are never covered in traditional math sequence like number theory, probability, combiatronics, etc.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/649958.Mathematics_a_Human_Endeavor

Another excellent resource during the pre-algebra/algebra years is Patty Paper Geometry by Michael Serra. This is a really wonderful hands on way to introduce geometric in a discovery based way as well.

https://www.michaelserra.net/weblog/patty-paper-geometry-1.html

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I tried combining the two older two into their "other, non-core" subjects, but they are so far apart ability wise, it didn't work out.

Is your rising 5th grader your oldest? If so, then maybe you could try combining them in some content subjects by greatly reducing your output expectations.

Until my oldest was in middle school, I always did science and history with all my kids together...I have four kids, two years between each, so that is a 6 year span overall.

Mostly, content subjects were just me reading aloud to them and discussing/narrating. Everyone participated at their level. I always had related coloring pages available for anyone who needed to keep their hands busy. And for history everyone had a mapping activity and interacted with it at the level they were able.

I think combining kids gets much more difficult when subjects include a lot of worksheets, reading guides, etc. But those things really are not necessary for learning to occur.

[Ting Tang]

6 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

Is your rising 5th grader your oldest? If so, then maybe you could try combining them in some content subjects by greatly reducing your output expectations.

Until my oldest was in middle school, I always did science and history with all my kids together...I have four kids, two years between each, so that is a 6 year span overall.

Mostly, content subjects were just me reading aloud to them and discussing/narrating. Everyone participated at their level. I always had related coloring pages available for anyone who needed to keep their hands busy. And for history everyone had a mapping activity and interacted with it at the level they were able.

I think combining kids gets much more difficult when subjects include a lot of worksheets, reading guides, etc. But those things really are not necessary for learning to occur.

Yes, he is.  I have 5, 7, 8, and 10 year olds. the 8 & 10 are just a grade apart.  Unfortunately, we tried this with Memoria Press and have the workbooks, so one is a bit slower than the other. I think your method is something we may do next year for some subjects.  

[kirstenhill]

5 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

This is the one concern I have left regarding DS moving to AOPS PreA next year. I plan to read the chapters aloud & have him verbally guide me through working the problems on a dry-erase board, then complete the exercises in his math journal. I know not everyone has the availability to do this, though. 

I just started reading AOPS Pre-A aloud to my DS10.  He completed Beast Academy 5D in January, then we moved straight into AOPS Pre-A.  He is dyslexic, and his reading ability lags far behind his math capability, so I will probably be reading him math books for a while yet.  I am doing some of the writing as well in the notebook since he's also dysgraphic, and the writing tires him out.  So far we've made it through chapter 2 and I've only been driven slightly crazy.   My older two boys worked through AOPS Pre-A and Intro to Alg totally on their own, just asking for help if they got stuck.  It is hard to sit with a kid while they wrestle through a problem, watching them take the totally wrong direction.  🤪  But struggling through and trying different approaches is part of the method.  I'm not actually sure the discovery method is a good fit for him, but he is bound and determined to use the exact same math books his older brothers used, so we are sticking with it for now.  He's so young that if we make slow progress, it's no big deal.  

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

1 hour ago, kirstenhill said:

is hard to sit with a kid while they wrestle through a problem, watching them take the totally wrong direction.  🤪 

Hah! Yes, it is. I do my lesson planning while DS is working through Beast Academy both to distract myself from his wrestling with material & to authentically require that he explain his thoughts clearly if he is truly stuck. Often that process alone is all he needs to figure things out! 

[Ting Tang]

7 hours ago, calbear said:

If you want discovery approach, a far more accessible curriculum for younger accelerated students would be Jacobs' Algebra or Arbor's curriculum starting with Jousting Armadillos. The first 1/3 of Jacobs is pre-algebra. Many students have gone from from from MM6 or MM7 or SM5 ot SM6 directly into Jacobs. Even though this is currently published by Master Books, it has nothing to do with MB. There are DVDs that go along with it. Ignore the fact that it is published by them. Or if you really dislike the company. Look for old copies on the used market and old Dr. Callahan DVDs. MB only acquired the right to publich in the last couple of years..

https://www.masterbooks.com/jacobs-math-series

A highly overlooked, but very enjoyable book from Harold Jacobs which is used by many accelerated math learners is Harold Jacob's Mathematics: A Human Endeavor. It can be used alongside pre-algebra work and explore many topics in math are never covered in traditional math sequence like number theory, probability, combiatronics, etc.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/649958.Mathematics_a_Human_Endeavor

Another excellent resource during the pre-algebra/algebra years is Patty Paper Geometry by Michael Serra. This is a really wonderful hands on way to introduce geometric in a discovery based way as well.

https://www.michaelserra.net/weblog/patty-paper-geometry-1.html

I'm not sure I responded to this part. I am going to check out Jacobs.  🙂  MB still thinks its students can do it after two years of its Principles of Mathematics, but interesting that it has pre-algebra built in!

[SoCal_Bear]

12 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I'm not sure I responded to this part. I am going to check out Jacobs.  🙂  MB still thinks its students can do it after two years of its Principles of Mathematics, but interesting that it has pre-algebra built in!

It doesn't mean that Jacobs necessarily intended it to be used instead of pre-algebra. He just thoroughly reviews all the topics before delving into the algebra topics. Remember this was a text written for use in public school, so students routinely had summer brain drain, so review is generally necessary.