Bible Scholars: please give Biblical refs for "the rod" (as in spanking)

[catalinakel]

I picture the shepherd using the rod to gently guide the sheep. He doesn't strike them, or the sheep would learn to distrust him. He just uses it to turn them in the right direction.

 

 

This is an interesting perspective. I haven't read all the responses, but have raised my children by use of the rod as a means of discipline. Meaning that my children have been spanked. I am not talking about off the cuff whacking out of anger or frustration. The administration of a spanking has been done lovingly, thoughtfully and purposefully, with the intention to teach that the child she has gone too far. And I believe that it has been a blessing to my children in that often spanking is the only language they have been able to understand in the midst of a situation. The pain of spanking has allowed them to choose to turn in the right direction. I have trusted that this is what God has intended when he says to use the rod for instruction, and this has been my experience.

 

My children do not distrust me at all. Our relationship is very strong and deep, and I believe that spanking has played a role in this. They are now 12 and 10. And, I have to say, my parents never spanked me. They did not discipline us at all....we were left to our own devices, and my heart is still broken over their neglect. I do not trust them because of their lack of what I would consider appropriate care...in other words, they did not display love toward us because they did not instruct us in the way we should go. We do not have a good relationship.

 

God, however, has been a faithful 'parent' to me as I have sought to follow him from age 22. I am going to be 49 this month. I have seen His faithfulness in providing me with instruction through the word and also through painful discipline. Grace overrides all of the pain. But I have learned obedience by what I have suffered. I have learned to trust Him not because grace makes life is pain free, but because His grace has been shown to me through the suffering that sin inevitably brings. And I change my direction because I want no more pain.

 

Israel was taught by God through painful lessons. One cannot read the Old Testament and deny this. Do what you will with your children, as they are yours to raise up. But I have found that God's ways are perfect, though often painful. Pain is God's megaphone(C.S. Lewis).

 

Respectfully submitted by one who has needed spanking so often that she feels compelled to contribute to the discussion.

[kokotg]

B. Unfortuneatly, my home and community has yet to complete the child proofing bubble wrap we ordered. Cut backs and all ;) Until they do, the road will continue to made from hard substances, and until hover cars are invented and put into use, cars will still drive down them. Because we don't have a plane, we live near a road. It's at the end of our driveway, as a matter of fact. When/if/should my children decide to go running willy-nilly, as they are won't to do, they stop at the tree line. Why do they stop? It's not so much a fear of cars, as a fear of repercussions. Their fear of repercussions, keeping them from running into the road, keeping them somewhat vigilant while they are outside, means that they have not been accidently run over recently. Seems to have worked for me. As for fire, electricity, etc. We need heat, fire, and I like lights, electricity, so we've kept those things in our home. Our kids do not play with outlets or the fire because of a fear of repercussions. I thought about letting one electrocute themselves, as a lesson to them all, and then... well, spanking is so much easier.

 

So, until the world is sunshine, gumdrops, candy canes and rainbows, I will spank my children when I believe it is necessary.;)

 

This is an argument I've never really understood. Certainly non-spankers also care about their children's safety. If you can point to any statistics that suggest that children who are spanked suffer fewer accidental injuries than those who aren't, I'd be very interested to see them. This isn't a subject I'm inclined to debate--I don't spank, but I certainly understand that many thoughtful, loving parents do, and I can agree to disagree. But I do object to the notion that I'm putting my children in danger by not spanking. I've got three boys who have never been spanked and have also never been run over by a car. I don't have perfectly obedient angels all the time, but they're good kids, and I've got a pretty good track record of keeping them safe without spanking.

[Carol in Cal.]

As I said, I DO believe you have that right.

 

I just believe it doesn't save a child from being squished by a car. Here is how it worked:

 

1) parent didn't prevent street entry (can't do 100% but can do better than most parents do, imo)

2) kid runs towards road

3) kid doesn't get squished by car

4) parent spanks or doesnt.

 

Regardless, the kid didn't die BEFORE the parent spanked or didn't spank. THAT was my only point. Spanking wasn't the deciding factor in whether the child died in the situation or not.

 

Again, if you want to spank your kids, you have the right (and I think you SHOULD have that right). And I certainly understand why people do it in danger situations though I disagree. But you stated that the SPANKING saved their lives in those situations and it's not like had you not spanked them that they would have died. They weren't going to die in that situation, that time you (I'm sure accidentally) allowed it to happen, anyway THANKFULLY!

 

The point of the spanking thing in that instance is to prevent the child from running toward the road the next upmtiddy up times he would have done so. It's supposed to be a deterrent.

 

Now, there are other ways to deter that from happening. I know that somehow I conveyed to my DD without ever spanking her that safety issues are completely non-negotiable. But she was an easy kid, for which I take almost no credit at all, and if I had needed to teach her in other ways, I would have--we live on a busy street and it could be a life or death situation, literally.

[Pamela H in Texas]

The point of the spanking thing in that instance is to prevent the child from running toward the road the next upmtiddy up times he would have done so. It's supposed to be a deterrent.

 

Yeah, supposed to.....most parents find out otherwise though (which is the second part of my argument in the post she was responding to). And a good parent wouldn't rely on that regardless; they just wouldn't take the chance.

[Nestof3]

If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

 

I just wanted to point out that this was written at a time when no one had entered Heaven, but there was a holding place. When, I believe it was David said, "You will not abandon my soul to Sheol forever" he was speaking of this holding place. The blood of Christ had not been offered yet. There were two sides to this holding place -- you can see these in the description of Lazarus and the rich man. This is where Jesus went when he preached to the captives -- He called it Paradise -- the side of Sheol that Lazarus was on.

 

The Proverb did not say saving from hell or Gehenna, but rather Sheol.

 

I just wanted to mention that for clarification.

[Peek a Boo]

my favorite interpretation of the rod/staff verses are as God's Word and Authority. Sometimes a word is used literally, other times it is used figuratively. God's Word remains True whether it is being used figuratively or literally. If God MEANT to use "day" literally, then great! If He MEANT it figuratively, then He's allowed to do that too :) It's His Word, not mine.

 

I don't think a parent's decision to use [or not use] corporal punishment has ANYTHING to do w/ scriptural references to a rod, but everything to do w/ the individuality of the child and/or parent.

 

When i was first researching the spanking issue, i was referred to teachingmom from vegsource. Joanne had some very good discussion on this that made a lot of sense.

 

Just as some sheep respond well to a gentle nudge, others may very well need to be strongarmed into submission. You can't reason w/ a sheep, and it is very difficult to reason w/ a very young child. But there are things we can do as parents to anticipate and prevent.

 

Some spankings are done to elicit a correct response, and some spankings are done to prevent a repeat of a behavior. Behavior modification is a wide field of study.....

 

There was a really good response in the comments of a blog, but i can't find it now.... i'll edit later if i do :)

[SonshineLearner]

Isn't it interesting when you read about other's experiences? Like I've mentioned before, I have two that have been spanked and two that haven't ever. We were discussing last night (the 16 year old and I) about WHEN she would have even been spanked, had that been one of the tools that were used with her. Because of her personality, explaining the the road was dangerous and that she mustn't ever be near it without me, she would have stayed right with me.

 

Me explaining that to my son, would have got a laugh and a jerk away from my hand. Do I take the time to get on my knees and look into his eyes with my hand cupped on his chin and making sure that we are looking at each other? Of course I do. Did he ever test that hands with mom meant that he really had to hold my hand? Yes, he did! I pointed out squashed animals on the road, and told stories about how their mamas told them to stay right with them, but they chose not to listen... And, if when we're practicing staying with mama, if he chooses to even try to pull away from me (and no, he doesn't succeed) then I will make sure there is a HUGE consequence...natural or not! If I choose to spank him, that's because I would rather "beat" his tushy...(and no, I don't "beat" him...) than see it squashed in the road.

 

If you choose to talk, time-out, take away toys...and that works....great! I really believe that it's dangerous to believe that what works for one child, will work for another. If I only had my first two, I would think anyone who even speaks harshly to a child, is crazy. After all, I don't need to raise my voice or punish either of them. BUT, God gave me two bio children that are full of their own opinions...and aren't afraid to make sure my husband and I know that they are gonna do their own thing.....

 

That being said, I try to discern each time I think of what I should say (or do) to my child...."Is this the easy way...?" I want to do what's right..rather that means spank or time-out...or make them do a chore...or any other choice I have to try to make sure that they get the point. (And yes, it's been quite a while since I've spanked.....but my children know I still would:-)

 

Carrie:-)

[coffeefreak]

The point of the spanking thing in that instance is to prevent the child from running toward the road the next upmtiddy up times he would have done so. It's supposed to be a deterrent.

 

Now, there are other ways to deter that from happening. I know that somehow.

 

This reminded me of my oldest, and how she tried ONE time to cross a road without me. We were meeting Daddy at a restaurant and I would always walk her to the other side of the car and make her hold my jacket, pantleg, whatever until I got the baby out. She looked across the parking lot and saw her Dad. She started to run and a truck was coming at her. Within a split second I reached out and grabbed what I could. It ended up being her hair. I literally almost snatched her bald to keep her from dying:lol: I tell the story for humor because we all still laugh about it today. I was HORRIFIED, but it all happened so fast. She NEVER did that again,but I think it's because when I grabbed her and pulled her back, the truck came to a screeching halt right in front of her, not because I yanked her by the hair.

 

My youngest was always (and still kind of is) so afraid of getting "squished like a bug," that we never had to discipline her for it. It just goes to show you, you never know what will impact your kids. A story about bugs, or almost getting snatched bald. :lol:

[bumbledeb]

We live in a world full of unnatural dangers that did not exist in biblical times. Busy roads, electrical outlets, etc. Of course there were other dangers back then and some of those dangers are still with us.

 

A child may not understand these dangers. Death or injury may be an unreal concept for a child. Some children can be utterly without a sense of danger or self-preservation. A parent's instinct to protect by any means necessary is natural.

 

Some parents of such children may conclude that spanking is the only means of ensuring their child is safe.

 

Other parents of such children may have made a decision not to spank, under any circumstance, and these parents may find that they are able to keep their child safe using other methods.

[lionfamily1999]

This is an argument I've never really understood. Certainly non-spankers also care about their children's safety. If you can point to any statistics that suggest that children who are spanked suffer fewer accidental injuries than those who aren't, I'd be very interested to see them. This isn't a subject I'm inclined to debate--I don't spank, but I certainly understand that many thoughtful, loving parents do, and I can agree to disagree. But I do object to the notion that I'm putting my children in danger by not spanking. I've got three boys who have never been spanked and have also never been run over by a car. I don't have perfectly obedient angels all the time, but they're good kids, and I've got a pretty good track record of keeping them safe without spanking.

That was a response to a response, from a post... if you know what I mean. I was not saying that everyone should spank their children. I said, previously, that parents who were able to raise their children without spanking them were phenomenal. I was responding to the idea that spanking could not "save" a child, with a list of ways spanking could "save" a child, being somewhat tongue in cheek, and somewhat serious. There was something about messing with the occult as well, being when spanking could save a child's soul. Anyway, that was not meant as an attack on parents that do NOT spank, but reasons why one would, and how one could interpret their actions (I spank, and the reasons I listed were reasons why my kids had at some point gotton a spanking) as ways to keep a child safe.

 

That's all... I think you just sort of fell in at the middle...