AP or Dual Enrollment?

[JD1]

How do elite college admissions view AP vs. DE?

Our son has 3 Embry Riddle Aero U courses on his transcript(high school dual enroll.); Engineering intro, Calculus and Physics for engr.)

He is considering taking  a few more; Economics, Statistics, Computer Science.

Currently he does not have any AP coursework, but he could prep and test for several AP exams next spring.

I spoke with an ed. consultant who thought that the DE might be seen more favorably than AP,

but I'm concerned about a complete lack of AP coursework on his common application.

His primary concern is admissions, and not the ability to get college credit for any of these courses.

 

[Lori D.]

Totally up to you.

AP is not required for admission to a top tier selective/competitive school. A number of homeschool families on these boards have had their students do DE only, and were accepted into top colleges, and with scholarships -- 3 specific students from families on these boards that I can think of off-hand, with no AP, ended up at Stanford, MIT, and University of Chicago.

You'll have to weigh all of the factors -- cost, availability (or not) of AP test location, ability to self-study for AP or if wanting an online AP class... Also, the AP rides on how the student is feeling on test day, and how well the student "tests". The whole year of prepping for AP test rides on that one test. With DE, the student's grade is usually based on several elements that each contribute a percentage to the final grade.

As far as your choice of courses to do as DE or as AP... Embry Riddle is a well-respected school, so the college-level Engineering/Math coursework that your DS has done as DE there will look very good. On the other hand, Economics and Statistics are sort of "universal" types of courses, so whether they are done as AP or DE, they will look about the same either way. The Computer Science -- that will depend on what the specific course is. If it's an Intro course, then it will likely look very similar as to doing it as AP; if it is a more advanced or specialized Computer Science course, then that will likely look "better" as DE.

YMMV. BEST of luck!

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Lori D.

[kokotg]

I was told by an admissions rep at Emory a few years ago that they preferred AP to DE because it was more standardized and they knew exactly what they were looking at. I think that sentiment is still out there to a certain extent at selective colleges, but I also think it's changing as more and more people do DE, that it's different for homeschoolers, and that not all DE is created equal. Selective colleges want to see that students took advantage of whatever rigourous courses were available to them, and I think that in general they don't assume that AP classes are readily available to homeschoolers and are used to seeing DE in place of AP on homeschool transcripts. My kids have had/will have a mix of DE and AP, but I like doing AP at home and am pretty comfortable teaching it for certain subjects. We also have access to lots of good, free DE options, so we take advantage of those, too. I've made sure to emphasize in my homeschool profile on the common app that my kids' DE classes are regular college classes at a university, not CC classes or classes taught at high schools (not that those don't have their place, too, but I think that in general classes taken at a 4 year college or university will be viewed as more rigorous). 

[JD1]

Thanks for your perspectives, Lori & kokotg. Another nuance is that in these lockdown times many in person classes are not happening. I anticipate that admission readers are going to see some new trends in applications, especially in extra curriculars.  The Embry Riddle courses are all asynchronous and online,(although they do have group projects where students interact) but I don't think that will be apparent or noticed by the readers.

[daijobu]

I think taking DE courses at a well known school like E-R puts you on safer ground than taking courses at an unknown CC.  Are these the same classes that regular undergraduates take?  If so, I would make this abundantly clear in your course descriptions.  

9 hours ago, JD1 said:

Currently he does not have any AP coursework, but he could prep and test for several AP exams next spring.

He may be able to prep, but before you embark on this path, have you already located a site that will allow your student to test?  Finding a school that will allow you to test was always hit or miss before the pandemic,  and even this year it is still difficult to find a campus open to outsiders.  Check this first, otherwise I think you are are fine with the E-R classes.  

[JD1]

E-R has a their DE program all online through their WorldWide branch. I think it probably looks better than a local CC. Thanks for the suggestions on

the AP sites.  That is very helpful!

[Farrar]

Another vote that it's up to you.

It's rare for private highly rejective colleges to prefer DE if they have a preference. Most would rather see AP or don't have a preference. But AP is a standardized curriculum and they like that. There are exceptions. For example, the UC's like California dual enrollment - they know the schools and the system. 

Of course, AP courses can also be more time consuming. Sometimes DE can help students achieve a lot more in a shorter time. But then again, AP courses - when done right - can be much more in depth and satisfying. There's no way that Comp 101 is better at the vast majority of CC's than AP English Lang is at Aim/Blue Tent/PAH, etc. So if it's a choice between knocking out something and then doing literally two more classes vs. doing a single AP course... then it starts to look differently. Again, it all depends.

[kokotg]

One other thought--are you thinking he'll prep for AP exams during his senior year?  If he's prepping for APs on his own as a senior, that won't necessarily mean much to colleges when he applies since they won't actually see scores until after he graduates. Even if he's prepping on his own, you can get a course approved so that you can label a course AP on the transcript, but I'm not sure how colleges would view them without scores or a history of AP scores. 

[Roadrunner]

12 hours ago, Farrar said:

 highly rejective colleges 

This is perfect. 🤣🤣🤣

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

One other thought--are you thinking he'll prep for AP exams during his senior year?  If he's prepping for APs on his own as a senior, that won't necessarily mean much to colleges when he applies since they won't actually see scores until after he graduates. Even if he's prepping on his own, you can get a course approved so that you can label a course AP on the transcript, but I'm not sure how colleges would view them without scores or a history of AP scores. 

Thanks for this -- I meant to add this info to my post, and forgot.

Just as general FYI to anyone reading along: AP tests are administered in May, at the end of the school year, but the deadlines to sign up for the tests are early in the previous fall. And for homeschoolers, because it's often hard to find a test location that will accept you, that search for a location needs to start by early September for the tests in the following May

@JD1: The deadline for ordering the AP tests by the test administrators is Nov. 15 -- so that leaves you VERY little time for finding a location and getting registered so that your student will be guaranteed a spot for taking the test. The preferred deadline for signing up students was back on Oct. 4th -- so testing as an 11th grader just may not be possible. And, as @kokotg says here, AP scores from May of the senior year do nothing to help with admissions -- it's the AP scores from 11th grade and earlier that are seen for admissions.

 

[Farrar]

The scarcity of AP locations so totally depends on your location. In some states, access is guaranteed, so it's as easy as calling your local school.

Not mentioned in this thread yet, but there are two components and each of them matter in different ways. The AP CLASS matters a lot in admissions. It doesn't matter if you take the AP test or not. The class itself is important for admissions. You cannot call an AP class AP unless your student is in a CB approved course or you're doing a course audit at home.

The AP TEST is also important in admissions, but at many colleges, it's less important than the class. The test scores are all that matters for getting college credit.

[JD1]

Thanks to all for these really helpful comments. This is my first time trying to navigate all of this and it is a big challenge.

I don't think I planned this well, but at this point need to make decisions for better or worse.

While not ideal, I am leaning more towards taking some extra DE classes, and then just have DS take some of the AP exams he can do self-study.

It only makes sense to do the exams in2022 as senior year 2023 will be too late. Unless anyone thinks otherwise, I am assuming that there will be at least some benefit in taking an AP exam and scoring well (without taking the AP class).

I did find a small private school in central Arizona who will be happy to assist us in the exam setup!  I had no idea we needed to do it now!!

Thank you!!!

[GoodGrief3]

I tend to suggest that people choose classes based on what makes the most sense for the student educationally at that time, and not worry too much about what an elite college might think. They are going to be looking at the package in its entirety, and it's unlikely that DE v AP will make a significant difference in the decision.

My personal experience with a daughter that did well in elite admissions: she did more APs, because we avoided classes with specific meeting times as much as possible because of her packed extracurricular schedule, and because the class topics were of interest to her. She did a couple of DE when we could not find any other alternative. Our local DE options are not impressive, honestly, which factored into the decision making too.

And you can do fine without either, if the rest of the student's "package" is interesting/impressive. :-)

[Eos]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:24 PM, Farrar said:

The AP CLASS matters a lot in admissions. It doesn't matter if you take the AP test or not.

I've never known this.  Our local high school doesn't require their students to take the tests if they're taking the classes, this makes more sense in light of your insight.

[mathnerd]

On 10/31/2021 at 11:24 AM, Farrar said:

The AP TEST is also important in admissions, but at many colleges, it's less important than the class. The test scores are all that matters for getting college credit.

As I slowly get up to speed on AP's, I am trying to understand more - so, a student who does not take an AP CLASS (e.g. AP Statistics) but takes the AP Statistics TEST by self-studying, then they can get college credit for that subject - did I get that right? Thank you!

[Farrar]

24 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

As I slowly get up to speed on AP's, I am trying to understand more - so, a student who does not take an AP CLASS (e.g. AP Statistics) but takes the AP Statistics TEST by self-studying, then they can get college credit for that subject - did I get that right? Thank you!

Yes, you've got it right.

The student who takes the AP class gets a good boost in admissions from having a rigorous schedule whether they take the test or not.

The student who takes the AP test and scores well gets college credit if the school offers college credit for that AP exam. Additionally, the score can be shared with the school for admissions and it may also give a boost in admissions. If the student is a homeschooler, it may help a little more because it will be outside verification even more than the class is.

The student who does both the test and the class obviously gets the biggest boost in admissions plus the college credit.

But, as you can see, either of these things on their own is good too. Different colleges are going to feel differently about the value of the test vs. the class, so this is all generalizations.

[daijobu]

37 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

As I slowly get up to speed on AP's, I am trying to understand more - so, a student who does not take an AP CLASS (e.g. AP Statistics) but takes the AP Statistics TEST by self-studying, then they can get college credit for that subject - did I get that right? Thank you!

It depends on the college and it depends on your score.  

[Ad astra]

On 10/30/2021 at 10:45 PM, Farrar said:

Most would rather see AP or don't have a preference. But AP is a standardized curriculum and they like that.

On 10/31/2021 at 1:24 PM, Farrar said:

The AP CLASS matters a lot in admissions. It doesn't matter if you take the AP test or not. The class itself is important for admissions. You cannot call an AP class AP unless your student is in a CB approved course or you're doing a course audit at home.

The AP TEST is also important in admissions, but at many colleges, it's less important than the class. The test scores are all that matters for getting college credit.

20 hours ago, Farrar said:

The student who takes the AP class gets a good boost in admissions from having a rigorous schedule whether they take the test or not.

We're not there and have no experience of APs yet, but I'm just curious as I'm doing research for our next step. I understand AP is more standardized, but the actual rigor of the online AP classes (for example, Acellus vs. PAH) also varies, right? Acellus (aka Powerhomeschool) looks appealing on the surface because they offer a broad range of AP classes that are CB approved at a very affordable rate. However, I wonder how their format of short videos and multiple-choice quizzes would adequately prepare any student to score high at AP exam. And I've heard it's very easy to earn an A from their courses without retaining much. But they are still CB approved and can be marked as AP on the transcript. Would colleges know or care about the differences of the AP online providers? If a student doesn't take the AP exam or report the score, how would the rigor of the class be validated for homeschoolers? Would the Acellus, PAH or home-brewed AP class get the same boost in admissions in the end?

[GoodGrief3]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:44 PM, Ad astra said:

 If a student doesn't take the AP exam or report the score, how would the rigor of the class be validated for homeschoolers? Would the Acellus, PAH or home-brewed AP class get the same boost in admissions in the end?

I haven't been back to this thread in a few days, so excuse the late reply. I am not sure that I agree that all college admissions offices are uninterested in whether one takes the exam or not. For homeschoolers applying to a selective school, it's likely useful to have a score to report, if the application provides that option. It may look somewhat suspect for a student to have multiple AP classes without any exams (in the past, anyway. Currently almost all schools are test optional as it is.)

It's unlikely the typical admissions officer will be familiar with differences in homeschool curricula options, but some may be. That said, the lack of AP classes will probably not be a make or break for a homeschooler with an otherwise interesting presentation.

[NittanyJen]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:18 PM, Lori D. said:

Thanks for this -- I meant to add this info to my post, and forgot.

Just as general FYI to anyone reading along: AP tests are administered in May, at the end of the school year, but the deadlines to sign up for the tests are early in the previous fall. And for homeschoolers, because it's often hard to find a test location that will accept you, that search for a location needs to start by early September for the tests in the following May

@JD1: The deadline for ordering the AP tests by the test administrators is Nov. 15 -- so that leaves you VERY little time for finding a location and getting registered so that your student will be guaranteed a spot for taking the test. The preferred deadline for signing up students was back on Oct. 4th -- so testing as an 11th grader just may not be possible. And, as @kokotg says here, AP scores from May of the senior year do nothing to help with admissions -- it's the AP scores from 11th grade and earlier that are seen for admissions.

 

Per the College Board, there will be no late fee to register homeschoolers for an exam seat if they were unable to get a seat by November because schools were hesitant due to COVID.