Remediate math--high school junior

[sbgrace]

One of my sons has special needs (ADHD, autism spectrum, OCD). Academically, these have always most impacted his math.

He has trouble focusing, gets distracted, makes careless errors, and tires easily. Math just takes a lot of focused time and attention to detail and he struggles. He hates it and sees himself as bad at math.

We spent 2 years with Algebra 1--working through CLE and Lial's. It was torture for both of us, but I felt that his Algebra 1 foundation was pretty strong at the time. It was misery, though. That was 2.5-3 years ago I think.

I used MathUSee for geometry. It was a breath of fresh air. He felt competent and the quickness of the lessons was great for him. He continued, successfully I thought into Algebra 2. He had a rough time last year w/OCD and things felt slow but steady. He wanted to take more ownership over his math, so I allowed that, just grading his tests. He had a short math break over the summer due to travel, it maybe got more complicated--I don't know--but It's going badly now. He's doing systems of equations--working on this chapter for way too long--and he's making tons of errors. Some are careless errors because these problems are long, but it's also feeling like he's not really solid generally. I don't feel like things are clicking--he's making careless mistakes, but also making poor choices as he manipulates equations and just generally. 

He has 4 more lessons in MathUSee Algebra 2. I had planned to move him to MathUSee pre-calc, realizing he really needs that to just cover Algebra 2 concepts. But now I'm not at all sure what to do. Should I find a different program and repeat Algebra 2 instead?  Is there a good way to remediate?

He's not ready for SAT type testing--hasn't even covered enough math for it. I've no idea how he would make it through a college math course. I'm really concerned.

Thoughts?  

Edited October 22, 2021 by sbgrace

[sbgrace]

I wonder...could I go through a GED math prep program with him, making sure he really understands it all, to prepare him for next level math? Would that be a better use of his/my time than adding another program?

[Lanny]

The "short math break during the Summer" may have been extremely bad for his education. Students without his issues forget a ton of material, if they do not study during the Summer. IMO it is better to study 12 months a year and have the continutity.

Suggestion: Test him thoroughly in Algebra 1.   If he is not rock solid with Algebra 1 go back to that.  Algebra 1 is the foundation for just about everything and a weak foundation leaves one on the edge of failure.

Much good luck to him!   

[sbgrace]

I guess it could have been the break (he went to camp for a couple of weeks), but it feels more like his special needs and math aren't mixing well at this point. I don't know.

Do you have a suggestion for how test him thoroughly? 

I know he can't tolerate long math sessions. I found an inexpensive book that says it covers high school math. It didn't have many reviews, and maybe it won't be at all what we need. But I'm going to see if it might be something I can just sit with him and work through at whatever pace he needs.

I don't know. I'm concerned.

Edited October 22, 2021 by sbgrace

[City Mouse]

How close is he to graduation, and why does he need  go beyond algebra 2? You mentioned GED prep. Is he planning to take the GED? If so, that might be your best option. Maybe a consumer math, or statistics rather that progressing to pre calculus.
I wouldn’t worry too much about college math yet. Most colleges require a math placement test and offer remedial math if needed.

I see that I should pay more attention and that he is in 11th grade. My own reluctant student took DE college algebra and statistics after Algebra 2. Nothing that he is even remotely interested in asa possible career choice requires any higher math.

Edited October 22, 2021 by City Mouse

[Lori D.]

First, I *think* you are saying you would just use the GED prep to feel like he is solid with high school math -- but you're not planning on the GED test. Is that right? Because, DON'T do the GED unless there is a very specific reason (like, heading to a trade school and they won't accept a homeschool diploma) -- there are some real downsides to a GED, so you want to weigh your pros and cons before getting a GED.

Second, agreeing with @City Mouse -- is there really a NEED to go beyond Algebra 2? What is the post-high school plan? Because if it's community college or trade school or apprenticeship or straight to work or military, he likely won't need to go beyond Algebra 2.

Perhaps a real-life math for 12th grade would be more useful for his future? Like Consumer Math, Business Math, Bookkeeping, Accounting, etc.

Or, if he is heading toward an AAS degree, there may be the requirement of College Algebra, so you could press forward and spend your last 1.5 years of high school knocking that out as self study at his pace and a CLEP test. Or, use this spring to prep for College Algebra at home, audit it at the CC in the fall of 12th grade, and then take it "for realsies" in the spring of 12th grade as dual enrollment. Just a thought!

(Although I'll add that with special needs, DE may really be a BAD idea, as usually those students need the slower pace that self-study with a parent or tutor provides, rather than the double-fast pace of DE to accomplish 1 year of high school math in 1 semester...)

Finally, just in case it helps to hear what others have done:

We had a similar situation here with DS#2 (mild LDs / stealth dyslexia / troubles with math, spelling, writing). We took 1.5 years each for Algebra 1 and 2, and he flew through Geometry in 0.5 year. He did a Consumer Math as his 4th credit, as he was not heading straight to a university (he went to the community college for 2 years, and then into a job that has not needed a degree), and I felt the real life math applications were going to be FAR more useful for him. If he ever needs to head back to college, he will have a lot more brain maturity and the willingness to work to get through the required math at that point -- likely it would only be College Algebra.

re: Algebra 2 ... DS#2 also did MUS. We would do 6-8, lessons, he would hit a hurdle, and we would go back and redo everything up to that point. Rinse. Repeat. So he spent all of the school year + the following summer getting through it. And MUS is about the lightest Algebra 2 program out there. DS#2 took the SAT in the fall of 12th grade, right after finishing the MUS Algebra 2 that summer. He scored just above minimum for college entrance, which I was thrilled for him. Again, I knew he was not headed for a 4-year degree, but it was very encouraging to see him clear that hurdle.

All that to say, you might just stop, and start over from the beginning of MUS Algebra 2, press through with no breaks, take the SAT right after completing the MUS Algebra 2 for the second round -- and then do something completely other Math-wise (Consumer Math, Business Math...) for 12th grade. That way your DS can use his senior year to really focus on finishing up needed credits, AND trying out some credits in the field he is interested in as a possible career. Again, just a thought. 

BEST of luck, whatever you all decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Lori D.

[lmrich]

What are his future plans? 

I echo what Lori D. says about taking a consumer math for his next math; he will need that kind of math on an every day basis. 

[sbgrace]

He doesn't know what he wants to do in the future (won't be a field that requires a heavy math load). Because of that, I don't want to make choices that close doors. 

No, he won't be doing a GED. I just want to make sure he's solid on whatever he might need to enter, perhaps, community college. I wondered if GED level math would get him there, but, in looking closer, I don't think that's going to be what he needs.  

The idea of preparing him to somehow tackle whatever might be required in math earlier--whether through auditing a course first or CLEP--that seems really wise. I think pacing is going to be a problem for him at that level--math takes a lot of his bandwith and he just mentally tires out with it. 

You've given me some good ideas. Thank you!

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by sbgrace

[Zoo Keeper]

I would not push him to finish all of the Algebra 2 topics if he is not going to *need* it for his future.  One of mine struggled very much the higher he went into Alg 2 (using MUS and AGS Alg 2 texts) during his senior year.  So, I spent the last half of the year making his Alg 1 foundation stronger, since I knew he would need that for his placement test into what math he would take in college. He did get a credit for Introductory Alg 2 on his transcript--he had put in the hours to earn a full credit. I noted that it was an introductory Alg 2 course with Alg 1 review included in the course description and no admissions person batted an eyelash. 🙂  (and FWIW, he took 2 years to get through Alg 1, and also did MUS for Geometry.  You're not alone!)

He applied to three colleges and was accepted at each.  🥳

He tested into College Algebra, and did not need to take a remedial credit.  This was HUGE for him.  Neither one of us regret not taking him further in his math sequence in high school-- he needed that time to make his Algebra 1 base solid. 

I would also recommend some type of Consumer Math if he still has math credits to fill. 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Zoo Keeper

[Bocky]

What jumped out to me is that you have stepped back and are just grading his work. When my dd was taking Algebra 2, I imagined she would be able to teach herself using Derek Owens. It didn't work - she needed a live teacher working with her on the math when it got tough. Perhaps your ds needs a live teacher or tutor now? With teaching support, he might be able to finish MUS Algebra 2. Is it divided into units like other MUS levels? If he has 4 lessons left, is he in the final unit for the course? If his grades are okay for the previous units (I think MUS says 88% or up?) then could you start from the beginning of the last unit with teaching/tutor support? For the asd kids I know, "failing" Alg 2 or going back to the beginning would be a big, huge deal - so I would work hard to help the student finish the MUS course as a first step. 

 

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, sbgrace said:

He doesn't know what he wants to do in the future (won't be a field that requires a heavy math load). Because of that, I don't want to make choices that close doors. 

No, he won't be doing a GED. I just want to make sure he's solid on whatever he might need to enter, perhaps, community college. I wondered if GED level math would get him there, but, in looking closer, I don't think that's going to be what he needs.  

The idea of preparing him to somehow tackle whatever might be required in math earlier--whether through auditing a course first or CLEP--that seems really wise. I think pacing is going to be a problem for him at that level--math takes a lot of his bandwith and he just mentally tires out with it. 

You've given me some good ideas. Thank you!

 

I will just add that NOT going further than Algebra 2 will very likely NOT close future doors.

Community Colleges (CC) will not require any credits for admission. CCs automatically have students take placement tests for Math, Reading, and Writing so that the student can go straight into the level needed, rather than flailing about in a level that is too difficult.

And, if going to a 4-year school, some universities (especially small Liberal Arts Colleges) do not require Math above Geometry for admission. And many universities will work with students about required credits and admission, if the student is missing one "required" credit. Also, as noted above by @City Mouse, just about all universities have placement tests, and most do offer the lower maths (below College Algebra level) to get the student up and running first to then later take the College Algebra credit (or whatever Math) that is required for the degree.

A final thought: waiting until your student is older (late teens, into the 20s) to take the Math can actually be a benefit, as some students are "very late bloomers" when it comes to math, and by waiting to take those abstract math courses needed in college while IN college as an older student, allows those math portions of the brain to finish developing, and can often make it easier to get through the abstract math at that point. 

I will say that these boards skew towards advanced students and those for-sure going straight from high school to college for a 4-year degree. NO need to feel you must "keep up" with others on these boards. And please don't feel you MUST somehow do a 4th advanced math if that is NOT in your student's best interests. Pre-Calculus is really NOT required or necessary for every student. Lots of wonderful career paths out there and the majority do not require Pre-Calculus. 😉 

[Lori D.]

41 minutes ago, Bocky said:

What jumped out to me is that you have stepped back and are just grading his work... Perhaps your ds needs a live teacher or tutor now? With teaching support, he might be able to finish MUS Algebra 2. Is it divided into units like other MUS levels? If he has 4 lessons left, is he in the final unit for the course? If his grades are okay for the previous units (I think MUS says 88% or up?) then could you start from the beginning of the last unit with teaching/tutor support? ...

Totally agree!

When we were redoing MUS, we were redoing units, the way @Bocky describes, and then we would move forward. However, I will note that we did have to redo several of the units 3 or 4 times.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Lori D.

[ieta_cassiopeia]

Would it be possible to go through MUS again as clearly-labelled "review" once or twice a week, while continuing with whichever other maths will most help your son do what he's going to do next (or, if there aren't any particularly important other subjects for his future, whichever maths he thinks sounds the most interesting?) That way, there's a sense of progression and a sense of underpinning at the same time.

In community college and college, your son will probably be advised to review his books and lecture materials multiple times to prepare for exams, whichever subject he does, so you can call the review "study skills - where you get to be ahead of many other students because lots of them don't learn why this is a good idea before college" if calling that part "maths" is likely to cause a rebellion. Plus, doing it that way, you can fold in other lessons about effective study as and when you think of them, without having to artificially create a study opportunity. After all, MUS has videos as well as text to broaden the possible range of study skills to practice.

Edited October 23, 2021 by ieta_cassiopeia

[Lanny]

ieta_cassiopeia   wrote: "In community college and college, your son will probably be advised to review his books and lecture materials multiple times to prepare for exams, whichever subject he does, so you can call the review "study skills - where you get to be ahead of many other students because lots of them don't learn why this is a good idea before college"

In 2020 or early in 2021, I took (audited free) a MOOC course on Coursera. It is one of their most popular courses. "Learning how to learn" is (I believe) the title.

It is a great course IMO.  If I took away one thing from that course it is that one should study in 25 minute "chunks" and then take a break and do something unrelated to studying.  The brain will continue processing what was studied in the previous 25 minute "chunk".

Several 25 minute Chunks are much better than one long study session.

[sbgrace]

This has been really helpful. Thank you all so much. 

I think I'm convinced he needs to go back, with me working with him again, to shore up algebra weaknesses this year and into next year if needed. I'm going to think about whether it would be more palatable if it was presented as review days together with move forward days. Maybe that will help.

The goal will be to be as solid as he can be in Algebra and work on math focus skills. (I'll build in the breaks idea. Additonally, he's just this week starting using tones (something he did in the algebra 1 past) to cue his focus during math--his idea to resume use..he knows there is a problem). 

My plan is to either use the book I purchased, which should be here Monday, for the review while, if he wants, he also keeps moving through his Algebra 2. Or, if the book isn't what I hope or too miserable for him, I will just use the MUS Algebra2, from the start, to review. Maybe he could test through and then re-do anything weak that shows up. Spiraling in review throughout a course is really hard for me. I've tried in the past. I can try again. 

He's not going to like either idea--going backward or me sitting w/him again--I know. But he does realize things aren't going well. So I think he'll do it. 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by sbgrace

[Lanny]

@sbgrace

You wrote: "We spent 2 years with Algebra 1--working through CLE and Lial's. It was torture for both of us, but I felt that his Algebra 1 foundation was pretty strong at the time. It was misery, though. That was 2.5-3 years ago I think"

IMO 2.5 or 3 years, without using the material is about like never having studied the material before.  My DD took Pre Calc when she was a Senior in High School. During her first semester in university, she couldn't get into the Calc course she had tested into. No space available...

The 2nd semester, when she was starting the Calc course, she said that she didn't remember anything from the Pre Calc course. When the Instructor mentioned something she remembered she was relieved and she did very well in the course, but I am sure it was tough sledding at first.

Random comments and thoughts below. Possibly something below will give you an idea.

Books...  I am rereading all of the replies to your thread. So far, I see  mention of books. Question: Have you tried things on the Internet such as Khan Academy? There are probably many web sites for Math. It has been a long time since my daughter was in High School Math so I don't know which web site(s) she used when she didn't understand something.

It is not unusual for one to study something and not understand and then be exposed to the explanation of another Instructor who explains something differently and then it will click. Eg: Instructor ABC leaves one confused but then  Instructor XYZ explains it differently and things click into place.

I wonder about his retention if he is looking at videos instead of books.

Bocky mentioned a live teacher. Yes. Having someone available to answer questions or explain things can be a huge help. My DD was a "Distance Learning" student so she was able to send questions to the Instructor. Also, when she was studying for the SAT primarily she used KhanAcademy but for the ACT she had access to a very low cost program from one of the huge test prep companies whose name has slipped my mind as I write this. That course had a lot of videos the students could watch over and over if they wanted to. Also, and more importantly, occasionally they had sessions where the students could ask questions of a Live Instructor. My DD found being able to ask those questions in a Live session was extremely helpful.

If he is in a course in a CC that has "Office Hours" available I would encourage him to take advantage of that free tutoring from the Instructor and/or T.A.s   Extremely helpful...

Much good luck to your DS!

[Lori D.]

Good ideas, @Lanny

BTW, re: "books only" ...

Yes, the CLE and Lial's that OP mentioned that they used for Algebra 1 are just textbooks.

However, the Math-U-See (MUS) that OP is currently using is a video-lesson-based curricula, plus a student workbook and teacher guide. So, it is not text-based.

Also, the MUS videos and method of teaching are extremely concrete/visual. That type of presentation is often extremely helpful for students who are weak/struggle with abstract math topics, such as Algebra 1 and 2. The fact that OPer's DS flew through Geometry (a very tangible/concrete math subject) is a strong indicator (along with the mention of the special needs listed in the original post) suggest that this student may have a high level of struggle with abstract math, and with traditional non-concrete (algorithm-based) presentations. Not always, but that is frequently the case.

The Khan Academy videos are more traditional/abstract-based in presentation and explanation. Although, you are absolutely right, that seeing it from a different angle can sometimes help a student click with the different explanation.

Just adding that in case you find it helpful. 😄Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Lori D.