Saxon 5/4 is driving dd9 crazy. Alternatives?

[jkl]

DD9 has always been pretty strong in math.  She did Math Mammoth grades 1-3.  I decided to switch for 4th because I needed something easier for me to teach (I have 3 other kids, 1 with special needs, and I have a chronic illness, so easy is a must for me this year).  I bought the DIVE DVDs and put her in 5/4, which looked perfect for her, if a little easy, at least at first.  She absolutely hates it.  She has cried almost every day.  I feel like I have tried everything.  I have her only doing evens or odds.  I am sitting with her for the entire lesson and independent work part of it.  I have copied the problems down for her.  I tried yummy snacks during math.  Nothing has helped.  This has been going on for 5 weeks.  I think we are going to need to switch, but I really find MM 4 too difficult for me to wrap my brain around and teach every day.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  I think she needs a workbook or work text.  I really want her to enjoy math again.  Help!! 

[ktgrok]

For independent, CLE or Teaching Textbooks come to mind. 

[jkl]

I used CLE with my now-14 year old, but I'm wondering if I might run into the same problem since it seems similar to Saxon..  I guess it is a workbook, though, so she might like that better.  Teaching Textbooks I'm not sure about.  Thanks for the input!

[Lori D.]

Yikes. That's tough -- sounds like DD clicks well with a more Asian-style of presentation, and you as the teacher prefer a more traditional style of presentation. Math Mammoth and Saxon are SO very different in presentation and style of problem-solving.

Have you considered the free Math Mammoth videos to help *you* teach MM4? Together you and DD can watch the 5-10 minute video, so you see the process quickly, and can step in and help if she needs it, and DD can mostly go on her own after that. If it's a workable solution, that 5-10 minutes of watching the video got to be a LOT shorter time of involvement for you, MUCH less stress for both of you, and a much more *positive* math experience for DD. 😉 Plus, you'll be keeping up with the *how* to teach MM pretty easily and painlessly, in case DD has a question along the way.

It also sounds like DD may feel better about doing Math with you nearby, so maybe schedule Math at a time when you can be in the same room  in the day at a time when you are doing something like folding laundry or making lunch or when you're schooling someone else in the same room and can look up and encourage her or answer a quick question.

If MM4 even with the videos is an absolute no-go, then maybe Horizon grade 4 (or CLE, since you're already doing another level with another child) -- traditional for you, but not so much that it is overwhelming on the page for DD. I would not recommend Teaching Textbooks as it is fairly similar in perspective to Saxon.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Lori D.

[BusyMom5]

Would letting her write in the book or on a white board help?  You don't Mendham you think the problems are with it.  Can you talk to her?  Is it a lack of you teaching?  The presentation?  The book?  The writing?  

[8filltheheart]

I would look at Horizons.

[monalisa]

Is it DIVE or the Saxon book or both?  There's also Nicole the Math Lady  videos for Saxon https://nicolethemathlady.com/

FWIW, I'm having a similar issue trying to transition my dd9 to Saxon 54 (with DIVE) coming from a different curriculum (BJU).  A big part of our problem is how far behind Saxon 54 is starting out from where BJU 3 ended.  Having once tried MM years ago, I would venture to guess its even farther behind MM3, so could it be boredom?  I'm trying to skip through 54 with testing and looking at the new concept taught each day to make sure dd doesn't have holes, but quite frankly she's pretty close to being able to do Saxon 65, when I look at the placement test.  Your dd may be in the same boat.  Plus, both BJU and MM are mastery, vs the tight incremental style of Saxon.  It is a huge shift, and at first my dd liked it but now, not so much.  Not sure we'll stick it out either ( and for sure I won't be able to go 5 weeks like we're going now),  Best wishes in finding a solution!

[acresoft]

Horizons Math

Or

Mathematical Reasoning from The Critical Thinking Co.

Edited September 3, 2020 by acresoft

[Ellie]

21 hours ago, jkl said:

DD9 has always been pretty strong in math.  She did Math Mammoth grades 1-3.  I decided to switch for 4th because I needed something easier for me to teach (I have 3 other kids, 1 with special needs, and I have a chronic illness, so easy is a must for me this year).  I bought the DIVE DVDs and put her in 5/4, which looked perfect for her, if a little easy, at least at first.  She absolutely hates it.  She has cried almost every day.  I feel like I have tried everything.  I have her only doing evens or odds.  I am sitting with her for the entire lesson and independent work part of it.  I have copied the problems down for her.  I tried yummy snacks during math.  Nothing has helped.  This has been going on for 5 weeks.  I think we are going to need to switch, but I really find MM 4 too difficult for me to wrap my brain around and teach every day.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  I think she needs a workbook or work text.  I really want her to enjoy math again.  Help!! 

What about Rod and Staff Publishers' math?

 

[jkl]

21 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Yikes. That's tough -- sounds like DD clicks well with a more Asian-style of presentation, and you as the teacher prefer a more traditional style of presentation. Math Mammoth and Saxon are SO very different in presentation and style of problem-solving.

Have you considered the free Math Mammoth videos to help *you* teach MM4? Together you and DD can watch the 5-10 minute video, so you see the process quickly, and can step in and help if she needs it, and DD can mostly go on her own after that. If it's a workable solution, that 5-10 minutes of watching the video got to be a LOT shorter time of involvement for you, MUCH less stress for both of you, and a much more *positive* math experience for DD. 😉 Plus, you'll be keeping up with the *how* to teach MM pretty easily and painlessly, in case DD has a question along the way.

It also sounds like DD may feel better about doing Math with you nearby, so maybe schedule Math at a time when you can be in the same room  in the day at a time when you are doing something like folding laundry or making lunch or when you're schooling someone else in the same room and can look up and encourage her or answer a quick question.

If MM4 even with the videos is an absolute no-go, then maybe Horizon grade 4 (or CLE, since you're already doing another level with another child) -- traditional for you, but not so much that it is overwhelming on the page for DD. I would not recommend Teaching Textbooks as it is fairly similar in perspective to Saxon.

Thanks!  I saw that MM had a few on youtube, but I didn't know there were so many!  This might solve the problem, though I wish there was a video for every lesson.:)  Thanks so much!

[jkl]

18 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

If she is crying about Saxon, I would not switch to CLE! It ramps up a ton at 400.

I like Lori’s suggestion of using the MM vids.. It is a familiar format for  her with the help you need for teaching.

Yeah, I pulled my CLE 4 out and I think we will have the same problem..

 

[jkl]

17 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Would letting her write in the book or on a white board help?  You don't Mendham you think the problems are with it.  Can you talk to her?  Is it a lack of you teaching?  The presentation?  The book?  The writing?  

When I ask her, she says she "hates it all." 🙂

17 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I would look at Horizons.

I will look at Horizons 4 right now.  Thanks!

[jkl]

Thanks everyone!  I will also take a look at Beast Academy and Mathematical Reasoning.  I love R&S for 1 of mine, but I think it would not be a good fit for this kid. I appreciate all of the suggestions!

[Lori D.]

19 hours ago, square_25 said:

...What is it about Saxon that's making your kids loathe math?? 

Not Æthylthyce the Texan, but... 

I had a math-minded DS#1 and a math-struggler DS#2. Saxon was NOT a fit for either.

For math-minded DS#1 (who loved Miquon and Singapore in the elementary grades), Saxon brought tears of frustration, because it divided a concept into micro bites and spread them out over weeks, so you might see the part of a concept in one lesson, and then the next "bite" not until 2 to 10 or more lessons later on... DS#1 MUCH preferred going deep on a math topic in a short period of time.

For math-struggler DS#2 -- he is a visual-spatial learner with mild LDs such that abstract concepts *must* be made concrete, and he does best with whole-to-parts learning. Saxon is very parts-to-whole incremental steps spread out over so much time that DS#2 would totally lose the concept from previous lessons--that were days or weeks earlier. But the big killer for him was *way too many* topics in a lesson, and *way too many problems* on a page. The first "too many" had his head spinning -- he needed mastery-based: focus on just one concept at a time. The second "too many" made him shut down -- visually text-dense and an overwhelming amount of problems just shut his thinking down entirely -- too distracting and too much of something he already struggled with, plus no real visualizing of the abstract algorithms to help make it concrete, and therefore comprehensible (for him).

For children who thrive with very incremental steps and lots of review of past concepts, and who are fine with a more abstract/less concrete presentation, Saxon works fine. Many families do great with it. But it was a 100% bomb with 2 very different DSs here... 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

4 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

That sums up some of our case too. I thought I had end run it by buying Intermediate 4 with the workbooks instead of the traditional 5/4, but it didn’t help. 

There were no workbooks after Saxon 3 back in the Dark Ages of our homeschooling of elementary ages (lol) -- BUT, I was writing out just selected problems for DS, and it was still sheer torture.

[jkl]

So, today I put the first few pages from MM4 in front of dd9 and she was back to her old self, enjoying math, chatting about the problems as she solved them mentally, etc.  This is a real problem for me because i don't want to teach MM 🙂  I am trying to think out of the box a little (and I haven't given up on the Horizon idea) because she was like a different kid with her old friend MM today!  I  am going to talk to (math loving but busy)  dh and see if maybe he can take over at least a day or 2.  I feel like I could pull off teaching MM a few times a week, but not often enough to get through the curriculum.  (We have various therapy appointments, health crashes involving my health and that of other family members, and that is why Saxon with the DIVE was supposed to help me so much!) Still puzzling it out...  Thanks for all the suggestions and support everyone! 

[Lori D.]

27 minutes ago, jkl said:

So, today I put the first few pages from MM4 in front of dd9 and she was back to her old self, enjoying math, chatting about the problems as she solved them mentally, etc.  This is a real problem for me because i don't want to teach MM 🙂  I am trying to think out of the box a little (and I haven't given up on the Horizon idea) because she was like a different kid with her old friend MM today!  I  am going to talk to (math loving but busy)  dh and see if maybe he can take over at least a day or 2.  I feel like I could pull off teaching MM a few times a week, but not often enough to get through the curriculum.  (We have various therapy appointments, health crashes involving my health and that of other family members, and that is why Saxon with the DIVE was supposed to help me so much!) Still puzzling it out...  Thanks for all the suggestions and support everyone! 

I like you idea of "outsourcing" the teaching/oversight of math to your DH. Or, if he can't take it over entirely, is it possible to hire an online tutor and have DD meet virtually a few times a week?

JMO, but I think it is esp. important to use what works for the child for Math in the elementary grades when building the foundations that will be critical for the higher maths -- so it's the one subject I would really encourage you, if all possible, to go with what clicks with DD and makes her happy and excited about Math.

Here's a thought: can you switch your 1-on-1 time with 9yo? In other words, "spend" your limited resource of time on you learning how to teach MM with her, and trade out another subject where you have been spending 1-on-1 time with DD and turn that over to a mostly solo-working material. So you're not *adding*' more teaching time with DD, just trading it around to let the teaching of MM have the bulk of your time.

Just a thought! BEST of luck in finding what works as you juggle so may needs this year. Warmest regards, Lori D.

[jkl]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:46 AM, OKBud said:

I might be being really dense, but what do you need to teach with MM that take more than a few minutes? When we've used it, I had to at most reword directions in the worktext. 

It's so wonderful that your daughter has a mathematics program she loves! Worth it's weight in gold.

Ha!  For some reason teaching MM and helping her with problems she doesn't understand or gets incorrect completely drains my (limited) energy like no other math program ever has!  I enjoy teaching R&S and CLE!  I think it's because it is hard for me to wrap my brain around Math Mammoth.

🙂

Edited September 6, 2020 by jkl

[jkl]

So, we decided to switch dd back and do Math Mammoth 4.  Dh will do it with her 2 times per week and I will do it twice.  On the fifth day, she will do a MM review sheet.  Thanks everyone for the help!