AmblesideOnline Thoughts?

[homeschoolwarrior]

Does anyone have any experience with Ambleside Online?  It claims to be rigorous, but, I'm wanting some objective thoughts.  I wouldn't be using the LA part.  Thanks a lot!!

[Lori D.]

Welcome! It looks like from your post count you are relatively new! 😄 

It sounds like you are looking for a "rigorous" program?? Could you post specific details about what "rigorous" looks like for you, or what you do or don't want in a rigorous program?? That could help others in tailoring their comments and reviews about Ambleside.
 

No personal experience with Ambleside, but while you're waiting for some reviews, when I was looking it over some years back, my impressions were:
- books used are all "old" -- most are from the 19th century; the most recent works tend to have been written/published in the 1950s -- so the most current ideas from the books used are upwards of 70 years past and older
- books used are largely British and American, so from a limited and specific perspective, especially when coupled with older publishing date
- a number of the books listed in each grade level (mostly after grade 4) tend to be 2-4 grade levels above the typical reading and interest level of the typical child
- it looks very parent/teacher time-intensive to implement
- and while I very likely missed it somewhere, I wasn't seeing much in the way of parent-teacher support in *how* to teach; it seems mostly like a book list and schedule... ?? (but maybe the details are on the AO board, or in a file I missed)

I have used a few ideas for book titles from the Ambleside booklists over the years, and I really like Ambleside's idea of monthly artist and composer studies. But overall, Ambleside (and many of their book choices) was not a fit for our family.

BEST of luck, as you consider all your options. Warmest regards, Lori D.
 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Lori D.

[EmilyGF]

I used AO for a year with my kids when I was just making the jump from neoclassical to CM. The next year I switched to another CM curriculum that I've now been with for four years.

I wanted to use AO because I wanted my kids to read lots of hard books. Unfortunately, there were so many hard books scheduled that we drowned in them. We were reading every single day until 4 pm at least. We never got to the other important parts of a CM education (nature study, handicrafts, sloyd, labs, etc) because we were drowning in the reading.

I subbed out every single science book. There are close to no people of color represented and the history books. which are often outright racist due to their age. The US history book was bizarre. Why did I need to know a detailed history of South Carolina? Another issue with old history books is that the author can't know what things are important historically, so a lot of "weeds" are included because the author didn't have enough distance from the time period.

I disagree with the idea that Mason in gentle, though I would agree that modern adapters have painted her as such. If you read her original writings, she had very high and strict expectations but applied them in a child-appropriate manner. She was very actively involved in her network of schools and was constantly improving her approach based on results she was getting. One idea I love about Mason is that a child needs a broad education because otherwise they don't know about areas that might interest them.

I definitely agree that becoming a proficient Mason educator takes at least a year. I'd say closer to three. Unfortunately, AO doesn't do much to help the teacher develop, so you are on your own with that.

Emily

[Little Green Leaves]

I really, really like Charlotte Mason and I've liked some aspects of AO a lot. I've used it -- loosely and with lots of modifications -- for the past few years. 

I do have some pretty big issues with their book lists, though. They are almost totally Europe and US focused. At first I didn't mind that, because we just added other books. But by year 3, they also included blatantly racist history books.

I've read through the AO forum, and they justify the racist texts by saying that kids need to learn to recognize racism. They argue that it's actually easier to identify in 19th century books, where it's blatant. I can see this making sense for primary sources, like Little House on the Prairie or something. But I don't see a reason to have kids read a very racist 19th century account of Marco Polo's voyage.

 

Anyway. I still like looking at the AO booklists but I take them with a big grain of salt.

[EmilyGF]

4 minutes ago, OKBud said:

This probably comes in through comparisons with public schools and PS-at-home methods where very little people are meant to sit down for several hours and do what CM would consider age in-appropriate. Which is another thing-- talking about 6,7,8 year olds is so different from older kids but it all kind of goes in the talk soup together whenever people are not careful to be specific. 

Totally! I see people taking her recommendations from book 1 (for under-9s) and then applying them to middle-schoolers!

[Lori D.]

7 hours ago, OKBud said:

... AO is rigorous. If used from the beginning it is also very age-appropriate...

While I'm usually in a similar frame of mind with you, I have to disagree here. Much of AO is not age-appropriate, neither in the read-alouds nor in the reader book lists. (Note: I refer to their main/spine Literature and Free Reading Lists -- they do have an alternative lower-reading level list for Free Reading if the student is not reading at an advanced level.)

I was reading aloud a LOT (like, 2 hours/day), and we wouldn't have had time to do anything except AO (like EmilyGF's experience above). I was also reading some pretty advanced books to DSs from early on -- but only as the occasional "seasoning" -- not as the main entree. If we had done AO, that would have left us no time for anything else. And we would have missed the window of opportunity for all the wonderful books written for children at specific ages. And we certainly would have missed out on all the fabulous books written in the past 60-70 years.

Most of our read-alouds were at a *reasonable* level above DSs' reading level -- but not years above, lol, like regularly reading Dickens or Shakespeare when they were 9-10 years old. Again, an occasional advanced book in the elementary grades is great -- but I think there's a strong chance of turning a child off of reading if everything is old-fashioned and years above reading level and *interest level*. At least, it would have really put off my DSs, and they really loved our read-aloud times, which we did all through the years into high school, and even a few post-high school read-alouds. 😉 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Lori D.

[EmilyGF]

3 hours ago, Lori D. said:

While I'm usually in a similar frame of mind with you, I have to disagree here. Much of AO is not age-appropriate, neither in the read-alouds nor in the reader book lists. (Note: when you are looking at their main/spine Literature and Free Reading Lists -- they do have an alternative lower-reading level list for Free Reading if the student is not reading at an advanced level.)

I was reading aloud a LOT (like, 2 hours/day), and we wouldn't have had time to do anything except AO (like EmilyGF's experience above). I was also reading some pretty advanced books to DSs from early on -- but only as the occasional "seasoning" -- not as the main entree. If we had just done AO (and we wouldn't have had time to do more than AO), that would have left us no time for anything else. And we would have missed the window of opportunity for all the wonderful books written for children at specific ages. And we certainly would have missed out on all the fabulous books written in the past 60-70 years.

Most of our read-alouds were above DSs' reading level -- but not years above, lol. Again, an occasional advanced book in the elementary grades is great -- but I think there's a strong chance of turning a child off of reading if everything is old-fashioned and years above reading level and *interest level*. At least, it would have really put off my DSs, and they really loved our read-aloud times, which we did all through the years into high school, and even a few post-high school read-alouds. 😉 

The people I know who had success with AO are very good rule-followers. They also have not found it to "work" with all their kids. The three families I am thinking of had one or two older kids who clicked perfectly with the curriculum but then younger kids who either rebelled against it or ended up having learning styles LDs that made it inappropriate for them. One family used it only for one of four kids. The second family moved to a more modern curriculum. I'm still watching the third to see what happens. But even faithfully applied by expert practitioners from the beginning, it doesn't fit all kids.

Emily

[Zoo Keeper]

I've used AO for around six years now, along with other things (WTM, and Sonlight).  I heavily modify Yrs 1-5, since the reading level and content of some of the books just aren't a fit for my family.  I don't like This Country of Ours (one of the history spines in the younger years) and some of the science books haven't been my taste either. 

But some of my kids have done very well with the upper years (Yr 6 and up for my family);  it is meaty and thought-provoking. My oldest, who just graduated, has had a heavily AO influenced high school, and many of books that he credits as "the good ones that made me think" came from the AO lists. 

I'm not a CM purist by any stretch, but I do suggest reading Volume 6 of her works to get a feel for her own thoughts, not just what someone else said she said.  I've learned from her writings, but I've also learned from Susan Wise Bauer's books, from podcasts, from these forums, from _____.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing. 

The AO forum is very helpful, and honestly, not as rigid as some folks think they are.  🙂 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Zoo Keeper

[EmilyGF]

On 7/15/2020 at 2:31 PM, Zoo Keeper said:

I've used AO for around six years now, along with other things (WTM, and Sonlight).  I heavily modify Yrs 1-5, since the reading level and content of some of the books just aren't a fit for my family.  I don't like This Country of Ours (one of the history spines in the younger years) and some of the science books haven't been my taste either. 

But some of my kids have done very well with the upper years (Yr 6 and up for my family);  it is meaty and thought-provoking. My oldest, who just graduated, has had a heavily AO influenced high school, and many of books that he credits as "the good ones that made me think" came from the AO lists. 

I'm not a CM purist by any stretch, but I do suggest reading Volume 6 of her works to get a feel for her own thoughts, not just what someone else said she said.  I've learned from her writings, but I've also learned from Susan Wise Bauer's books, from podcasts, from these forums, from _____.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing. 

The AO forum is very helpful, and honestly, not as rigid as some folks think they are.  🙂 

 

Then it must have changed in the past five years (very likely). I was really turned off by the forum.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Quick thoughts on two of the AO history spines:

Our Island Story was surprisingly fun to read.  My kid enjoyed pointing out which stories were clearly legends, and which stories were probably mostly true.  And even if it focuses a lot on kings and battles, it covers thousands of years of British history, so it has to move pretty quickly.  It’s not perfect but I’m glad we used it. 
 

This Country of Ours on the other hand is a slog.  It covers about three hundred years of American history. So many battles in such excruciating detail.  My kid finally rebelled, just as we were getting to the Revolution.  As a grownup I got something out of learning about each individual general in the Continental Army, but the kid was *over* it.  Also the descriptions of the Indians are consistently racist.  That was a source of good conversations, but I had to add a lot of real time commentary.  And automatically replacing “savages” with “Indians” as I read.  (After explaining what I was doing and why.)
 

Honestly I can’t imagine dealing with old books the entire time. 

[Little Green Leaves]

2 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

Quick thoughts on two of the AO history spines:

Our Island Story was surprisingly fun to read.  My kid enjoyed pointing out which stories were clearly legends, and which stories were probably mostly true.  And even if it focuses a lot on kings and battles, it covers thousands of years of British history, so it has to move pretty quickly.  It’s not perfect but I’m glad we used it. 
 

This Country of Ours on the other hand is a slog.  It covers about three hundred years of American history. So many battles in such excruciating detail.  My kid finally rebelled, just as we were getting to the Revolution.  As a grownup I got something out of learning about each individual general in the Continental Army, but the kid was *over* it.  Also the descriptions of the Indians are consistently racist.  That was a source of good conversations, but I had to add a lot of real time commentary.  And automatically replacing “savages” with “Indians” as I read.  (After explaining what I was doing and why.)
 

Honestly I can’t imagine dealing with old books the entire time. 

I really liked Island Story too, at least what I've read of it. And I totally agree about This Country of Ours and had the same experience. Not only "savages" but "wily savages" and "Redmen." At first it was leading to useful conversations, and then it got really oppressive. There's a chapter titled something like "How the Redmen betrayed their white brothers" which I skipped. The discussion of slavery in that book is extremely upsetting too. The chapters which stick to white people's misadventures with the wilderness, or with each other, while they try to settle in the Americas are ok, but not worth it in my opinion. 

Like I said, I'd feel differently if it was a primary source -- like a settler's account of their experience in the Americas, etc. But I don't see the point in using an outdated and racist book as a spine.

 

 

[Little Green Leaves]

11 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

A friend linked to this blog on FB. The blogger is an African American CM homeschooler. In this post, she discusses issues with finding "living books" that are inclusive. 

Why Living Book are not Enough for Black Children

This was a great post too. 

When "Really Good" Books Hurt

She really gets at my main issues with AO. I am sometimes drawn into the 'mystique' around AO, the idea that it's "pure" Charlotte Mason. But I look at the book lists and am drawn back into reality. I always remind myself of two things when looking at their lists. First, the curriculum was intended to promote a Protestant religious worldview. (I'm not Protestant so I don't know where they fit within Protestantism.) People brought up issues with the anti-Catholicism in some of their recommended books and they (who is "they" within AO?) did not care. I believe their response was that their curriculum was intended to be Protestant. Second, they deliberately chose books that were out of print and easy to find online. Essentially AO was not developed for my family so it would never suit my family's needs.

I believe they have always refuse to consider finding an alternative to their history texts.  

I used to lurk on the AO forum and noticed that many of the kids were a year behind which speaks to how many of the books are not grade level, at least in the elementary school years. 

My DD will be in the 5th grade next year. AO assigns Trial and Triumph and a biography of Teddy Roosevelt in Year 5. Trial and Triumph is probably the most anti-Catholic book they schedule. We're Orthodox, not Catholic, but anti-Catholic books are not coming into my house. I won't have Teddy Roosevelt hagiographies here either. 

 

What's the problem with Teddy Roosevelt? I don't have super strong feelings about him. What am I missing?

[serendipitous journey]

Briefly, to the OP: Ambleside Online's Y1-Y6 books are in many ways rigorous, and there are many excellent ones there. 

There are two areas I've seen people using AO for years struggle when the children hit high school/college.  One is writing: written narrations, however delightful and erudite, are simply insufficient writing preparation for a rigorous education.  But if you aren't doing LA via AO then that's fine.

The other block children hit is using science textbooks in the upper years.  This can be a hard transition.  I'm not quite sure why, because many WTM families don't use any science textbooks until high school and the children do swimmingly.  Perhaps it is the transition from nature-study to a different type of thinking?  At any rate, it is something I've seen in my years of reading AO posts. 

I love much about AO but have problems similar to those above, plus I need science materials that reflect our beliefs (both old-earth and not suffering from racist/colonialist rhetoric).  HTH. 

[Little Green Leaves]

25 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't have anything to do with the AO advisory group (or whatever they call themselves) but many people have objected to TCOO and they completely ignore people's complaints. That's a big problem, IMHO. It doesn't offend them so they can't even see outside of themselves to see why it might offend someone else. The language in that book is completely inappropriate. There are better books out there - why draw a line in the sand over TCOO? 

I witnessed a discussion between several homeschoolers that illustrated this mentality. At first, someone objected to using old books with racist language. Other homeschoolers got defensive and lectured everyone on how it's important to read old books and see other people's perspectives. Then someone mentioned how it was great to find books where the children were the same religion as they were. Everyone agreed that this was ideal. 

I thought....HELLO!!! Do you not see what you did there? Not that I tried to point this out to them. That would be fruitless and I'd sure that I would have been censored. 

I also have seen this argument about seeing "different perspectives" and then it turns out that the different perspectives all come from Victorian and Edwardian England!

[Lawyer&Mom]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

There are better books out there - why draw a line in the sand over TCOO? 

Any suggestions for American History spines that are better than TCOO?  I’ve got textbooks, I’d love a “living book.”

[LauraBeth475]

33 minutes ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

Any suggestions for American History spines that are better than TCOO?  I’ve got textbooks, I’d love a “living book.”

I’m curious here too

[8filltheheart]

5 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

Any suggestions for American History spines that are better than TCOO?  I’ve got textbooks, I’d love a “living book.”

For what age group?  Paul Johnson's History of the American People doesn't read like a textbook, but I use it with my high schoolers.  With my younger kids we read through books; I don't use any sort of spine.

[Lawyer&Mom]

I’m not a CMer either, I was just using AO for book ideas.  I have an advanced seven year old who really likes the old books for their advanced language.  I liked the story format of Island Story because I read it aloud, but we do read alouds with more traditional non-fiction too. 

[8filltheheart]

14 minutes ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

I’m not a CMer either, I was just using AO for book ideas.  I have an advanced seven year old who really likes the old books for their advanced language.  I liked the story format of Island Story because I read it aloud, but we do read alouds with more traditional non-fiction too. 

A book that I personally like much better book than IS is https://www.amazon.com/Story-Britain-Norman-Conquest-European/dp/0763651222  

[Lawyer&Mom]

All of these recommendations are really good!  Thank you!!