GED - Why not?

[yvonne]

Asking for a friend whose senior year son is has been at a small private school for 11th & 12th. It's not a high end private school, so they don't have any real college advisors like other private schools might.

Her son is failing two of five classes this year. He had a similar record last year. He won't read the books assigned for English, claiming he can just read summaries. He won't do most of the work for his English class. He's very bright, but stubborn and angry. I don't know what's behind the anger.  He chose to continue with a second year at this private school when he could have returned to public school. 

I know.... the big issue here is the anger and attitude, but life goes on and while they're working on that, they need to figure out what to do about school. Early on, in middle school through maybe 9th grade, he had wanted to go on to a top 4-year college, but that's obviously not happening now.

My friend mentioned today that she's advising him to take the GED and go to community college for a year or two while working. Given that he will probably fail 2 of 5 classes because he is not willing to do the work, I guess getting a GED might be the only way forward? 

I know a GED is a distinct disadvantage if one plans to go into one of the services, but he has a physical condition that rules that out anyhow.

Are there other disadvantages to having a GED?  I know it is generally considered to be for kids who've had problems, which he has. But does a GED limit a person besides as far as the services?

Thanks!

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[yvonne]

Thanks for your bil's story! It sounds like he really turned his life path around! I'm hoping my friend's son is able to do the same because it's not looking very bright right now. Not a drug issue for him, as far as my friend knows, but he's wrestling with other problems.

That is interesting about Amazon requiring proof of your high school diploma (or GED) despite the fact that you had a BS!  Wouldn't one HAVE to have a high school diploma to get a 4-year college degree??  I don't think I could even find my HS diploma anymore! What did you give them?

 

[Lori D.]

First, here is the GED website, for further research.

Second, re: the backstory
From your OP, you explain that the student is "... failing two of five classes... He won't read the books assigned for English, claiming he can just read summaries. He won't do most of the work for his English class. He's very bright, but stubborn and angry..." This screams out to me of the possibility of a previously undiagnosed issue, such as dyslexia, stealth dyslexia, vision convergence, or a processing issue. Students with issues OFTEN mask disability with anger and stubborn refusal -- because failure by their choice seems to them to be a better option than people finding out that they can't read at this age. My first suggestion would be to get him in pronto for testing to rule potential issues.

Also, as a side note, anger and work refusal can be a symptom of anxiety or depression or other mental health distress. Or, a reaction to disruption in life circumstances -- such as physical/emotional abuse of the student; a parent having an affair that is discovered; parents divorce; a death of a friend or relative; etc. So that would be another thing to definitely get checked out ASAP -- make sure everything is okay both learning-issue-wise, and mental-health-wise.

Third, rather than go straight to GED (which WILL require a good amount of study/prep that the student may be unwilling to do), I'd first look into the possibility of doing credit recovery for the failed credits. Perhaps streamline the last semester to just the credits needed for actual graduation (so, maybe 3 classes??), and then spend the rest of the day on credit recovery of the English credits, and any other credit that looked like he was going to fail and needed for graduation.

I know NOTHING about these or if they are any good or not, but here are some credit recovery programs: Apex Learning, Edugenity, The Virtual High School, The Keystone School. 

Fourth, for the English credit, I'd specifically look for credit recovery that focused on very practical skills of reading and writing that would be used in the general workplace. It's possible that this student may be angry and stubborn about the English because he is a very "black & white" thinker and just does not "get" the discussions on theme and the depth in literature -- that can make B&W-thinking students feel extremely frustrated (to the point of refusing to do the work, if the teacher keeps talking about all these "things" that are indirectly embedded in the work of literature -- things beyond plot, and what is directly stated in the text -- and the B&W student literally can't see it.

Fifth, My thought (without knowing more about the student, the school, or the situation), is that since he's already in school, and only has the spring semester of 12th grade to go, perhaps it's better to keep going with the little bit of momentum and routine that there is, and stick with what is a known quantity (high school), plus have the school help with credit recovery -- rather than dropping out just a few months shy of graduation, and STILL needing to study in order to take the GED.

Also, if dropping out and getting the GED IS the plan, what is the plan after that? While having a GED is better than NOT having a high school diploma, If going to the community college is the goal, I think it is VERY important to sit down and look realistically at what the community college programs require. Even an AAS (the Associate's degree that is "direct to work") WILL require 2 semesters of English (focus is on writing, but there IS reading of literature and then writing about it). Plus several courses in the Social Sciences, which often require a lot of reading and then writing of papers. If a student has been balking at high school English to the point of failing, how likely is community college to be a good fit or next step?? 

All that said, some general pros and cons to the GED:

Cons:
- there still can be some stigma about having a GED in some workplaces (see some of those linked threads below)
- it has become extremely difficult to enter the military with a GED -- so NOT a good idea considering the military in the future
- the GED was revised in 2014, and has become much more difficult -- so it WILL require a good amount of study/prep

Neutral
- it does cost to take the test
- you must be 18yo (or older) to take the test (a "neutral" that might turn into a "con" if there is a lot of "down time" between dropping out and becoming old enough to take the test)

Pros:
- a GED is accepted by universities, community colleges, and by trade schools
- a GED can help an older student who is just "done" with high school and needs to get moved on
- a top score on the GED can award some college credit (sort of like how CLEP tests can earn credit through testing)

Below are a handful of the close to 2 dozen past threads with discussion about the GED, all linked towards the bottom of PAGE 2 of the big pinned thread "High School Motherlode #1:
- GED? (what is it, how to prep, is it a good idea)
- s/o GED stigma?
- Beyond dual enrollment: GED? Homeschool diploma? (which is better)
- Getting a GED at 16 and then heading to Community College - pros and cons?
- Early graduation/Community College online and GED? (includes general GED discussion)
- GED advice
- Looking for online GED prep course for somebody who left high school 7-8 years ago and never finished
- Best prep material for GED? -- AND -- same thread X-posted


BEST of luck to your friend and her family, OP! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Lori D.

[katilac]

On 12/1/2019 at 7:54 PM, Lori D. said:

 Students with issues OFTEN mask disability with anger and stubborn refusal -- because failure by their choice seems to them to be a better option than people finding out that they can't read at this age. My first suggestion would be to get him in pronto for testing to rule potential issues.

Also, as a side note, anger and work refusal can be a symptom of anxiety or depression or other mental health distress.  



Neutral
- it does cost to take the test
- you must be 18yo (or older) to take the test  

I second getting things checked out, particularly for a student who used to do well in school and who showed interest in higher ranked colleges. Sometimes high intelligence can mask learning differences, until suddenly it can't. 

The age requirement varies by state; you only have to be 16 in mine. 

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

... The age requirement varies by state; you only have to be 16 in mine. 

Thank you for the correction -- I didn't realize that when I did an online search, it automatically linked me specifically to *my state*. 😉 Here are the requirements by state -- even some of the states that require a minimum age 18 appear to have exceptions with additional documentation to test as low as age 16 or 17. 

[Arcadia]

On 12/1/2019 at 1:44 PM, yvonne said:

My friend mentioned today that she's advising him to take the GED and go to community college for a year or two while working. 

If in California, I would look at doing the CHSPE and to take advantage of the two years of California College Promise for free two years of community college. That way he can work if he wants to but not because he has to work to pay community college tuition and books.

“

• FREE tuition and fees for TWO years, for all eligible students
• PLUS: $1,000 toward books and materials ($500 each year)
• Free transportation with the VTA SmartPass, too!” https://www.deanza.edu/promise/

[Lecka]

I wouldn't listen to somebody who is in their 40s -- I think the GED has lost its reputation more recently.  I would not be surprised at all at someone my age saying "it was fine."  

For someone younger -- if they are actually going to get a 2-year degree, I think it is totally and completely fine.

If not -- I think it is better to have a high school diploma.  

I think also, I hear that the GED got made easier to where it was less prestigious, but then it was made harder again?  There is a young man at my church taking GED classes who did not complete high school, and is going back, and he is not having an easy time with it.  I think right now it is harder, but the reputation is still that it is easier.  

But for someone in their 40s -- yeah, I don't think it was the same, I think then it was known to be reasonably hard and had a decently good reputation.

I know that is all very gossipy ------ but bottom line, can he pass the GED?  And will he actually get a 2-year degree (if not more?)?  Because I do think it is not totally easy to get a GED right now, and also, I don't think it is equivalent to a high school diploma, depending.

If he is definitely going to get at least a 2-year degree, it is just that high school is stupid, etc, ------ then I think it is totally fine.  

If he might have a hard time with either of those, I think he needs to suck it up and get his high school diploma, even if he does the most minimal credit recovery or summer school or online options.  I think they can be easier than the GED test.  Though I am not sure if maybe it has been made easier again?  It's hard to say.  I think the young man at my church also could not pass the Algebra exit exam for high school, and he is on the troubled side beyond just thinking high school is stupid.    

[Lecka]

Really I have heard that here, passing the math section is a problem for people.  I don't think it is necessarily that it is so hard, but that the same people who couldn't pass the Algebra exit exam have a hard time with the GED math section.  

If your friend's son passed Algebra in 9th grade then this is a non-issue.  If this is one of the classes he has been failing -- it could be an issue.  

It is definitely one of those things -- to one person it might seem really easy, but to another person, it might seem really hard.  

[Lecka]

I have a son who is in 9th grade and is very much on track to pass the Algebra exam at the end of this year, and in his class it is treated like a joke.  But he has other friends who are not taking Algebra I, they are behind in math and got placed into a track of Algebra A and Algebra B over 9th and 10th grade, with taking the exit exam at the end of 10th grade.  And if they don't pass they have a tutoring class they can take to study for the exam.  

So I think it makes a big difference if he is caught up in everything and is just bored or thinks it is stupid, or if he is actually behind in some area.  If he is behind he will probably be in a remedial track in community college, which can be really demoralizing and also can be really difficult classes to someone who is already weak in that area, and then in a class that moves twice as fast as in high school.  

[Lecka]

If he is likely to do well in community college, I do think it sounds like a non-issue.  

I know a decent number of people who are scared to take the English and math requirements for transferring to a 4-year college, which are slightly harder than what is needed for just a 2-year degree.  

If that is not who this young person is -- I don't think it is an issue.

If he is somebody who would be intimidated to take some community college classes or might struggle, I do think it is worth it to get the high school diploma.  

[katilac]

If he won't study for class, will he study for the GED?

If he doesn't do the work in high school, will he do it in community college? 

They need to try and figure out what's going on. Also, he needs to take a practice test before any decisions are made, imo. 

On 12/4/2019 at 1:03 PM, Lecka said:

 If your friend's son passed Algebra in 9th grade then this is a non-issue.  

The GED goes beyond Algebra 1. 

As did the old test. People are not failing the math section more than they did under the 'easy' test, the fail rates are very similar. The big change is that a higher score on other parts of the GED used to be able to stand in place for a failing math score. This is no longer the case. You must pass each section. 

Also, we tend to use GED in a generic sense. They need to find out the specific test used in their state, and then the specifics of that test. 

My area does have one big reason against taking the GED or equivalent: some of the bigger or better employers in the area have training programs that require a high school diploma. GED or equivalent is not acceptable. I don't know if a 2-year degree would work, but I'd be very wary of assuming that a student who can't/won't get their high school diploma can/will get their 2-year degree. Trying to nail down the problem should be the next step imo. 

[yvonne]

Thank you, everyone, for weighing in on my question! 

There are various underlying issues with the young man that are being addressed. My question is solely about whether there would be any long term ramifications for him of having a GED. Ie, assuming he is able to get through the other, emotional issues and get back on track, will he regret having gotten a GED?

Arcadia, I hadn't looked into the CHESPE/CA College Promise info, but will pass that along to my friend. Thank you!

[Farrar]

The only potential ramifications are pretty short term, as I understand it. Sometimes students benefit from keeping their high school status longer for various college admissions reasons (though they also can benefit short term from being graduates because then they often get money for community college or financial aid for college). It does have a small stigma attached in certain circles, so a student aiming at some selective schools might want to consider other ways to deal with it. Taking time to prep for it isn't in a student's best interest if there are other, better avenues... In the case of the OP, if a student wants a traditional path to a selective college, then finishing high school in some traditional way is usually a better bet for having as many options open as possible. But when that's not working, it's not working. And the best way to circumvent a traditional path is to, well, circumvent it.

So long term? Nah. Within just a couple of years, it'll inevitably be supplanted by whatever experience he has after taking it - community college, work, trades, etc. And it barely has any stigma left anyway. If the GED is the right path for him, he should do it.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Farrar