Anyone looked at Gather Round yet?

[8filltheheart]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

So, I've emailed Gather Round to ask if they at least have a list of Errata so that those who have current units can look and check and make notes of any changes/fix any mistakes in their own copy until a new version comes out. I'll let you know what they say. Such a list seems like the LEAST they could do, so that at least the crowd sourced edits would be out there rather than having people have to figure it out themselves. It seems like a standard practice to me - right? Like, generally a company will fix the errors in the next printing, but until then you use that list to note the corrections in the old text. 

Also, they are pushing out updated versions right now, with corrections made, but here is the thing - I already have printed everything. I don't want to reprint every page AGAIN if there are corrections or new stuff only on a few pages. When I asked if she could tell me what the changes were, so I'd know what pages to reprint, she said no, no list of changes, but off the top of her head she knew of two actual errors that were fixed, aside from general typos. One of the two was one I had told them about myself, lol. 

Posting errata on their website would be normal so people can print them out themselves.

[ktgrok]

And...they said they have considered publishing errata and decided not to, but will consider my request. 

Um, huh? 

Why on EARTH would you want multiple customers struggling with a mistake when you could publish the correction?

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And...they said they have considered publishing errata and decided not to, but will consider my request. 

Um, huh? 

Why on EARTH would you want multiple customers struggling with a mistake when you could publish the correction?

Red flags.  Seriously.  Do they want people to have purchase updated material due their errors?

[8filltheheart]

Not to mention, updates within a few months?  That screams rushed publication with zero planning/forethought.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Red flags.  Seriously.  Do they want people to have purchase updated material due their errors?

So, they actually send out the updates for free when they redo the unit - if you have the digital version. So I got the newest version of North American Birds sent to me for free yesterday, since I own the old version. So it's not the money. 

I finally got an answer back that when there are any significant corrections they put the new, fixed page up in the files section of the facebook group. So that's something at least. 

And she laid out the changes in the new version of North American Birds in a post on the facebook group today. 

Still a simple list would make so much more sense. 

[8filltheheart]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

So, they actually send out the updates for free when they redo the unit - if you have the digital version. So I got the newest version of North American Birds sent to me for free yesterday, since I own the old version. So it's not the money. 

I finally got an answer back that when there are any significant corrections they put the new, fixed page up in the files section of the facebook group. So that's something at least. 

And she laid out the changes in the new version of North American Birds in a post on the facebook group today. 

Still a simple list would make so much more sense. 

Thanks for sharing that.  That is much better!

[Allie]

What happens to those that didn’t purchase the digital file? Do they have to purchase the new edition in order to have access to the updates?

[ktgrok]

21 minutes ago, Allie said:

What happens to those that didn’t purchase the digital file? Do they have to purchase the new edition in order to have access to the updates?

I guess they can see the updated pages on the files section and print just those pages, or make notes in their printed version, similar to other texts do. 

[ktgrok]

So, little more of an update. The units with the known errors were done before hiring proof readers, seems since then they have not had the same issues. Time will tell. I haven't seen any in the bird one we have, and I've been double checking everything with outside sources. 

We are continuing to use it, alongside some extra phonics and handwriting for my 1st grader (instead of the tracing in GRH), although I do have him read the copywork even though he doesn't trace it, and I do have him search for digraphs, etc. (and I learned that I was wrong, vowel teams are digraphs, even though I'd learned them as something separate, lol)

At this point, we plan to continue using it, and I've shifted my opinion on it, mainly because after interacting with the company and others using it I've realized more who it is meant for and how it is designed to be used. It is NOT meant for those wanting a traditional scope and sequence, looking for a classical education at home, looking for the memoria press type experience, etc. It's for those who lean towards unschooling, or project schooling, and are looking for a framework to add on to - with library books, projects, research, etc. The goal being to inspire an interest in learning, and for the parents to work alongside the kids modeling research skills. Personally, I want more structured writing and grammar than the early elementary gives for my 4th grader, with more hand holding, so we add in or replace the language arts pages with LLFLE, but if someone was more unschooling minded they wouldn't. For highschool, if one was planning on an unschooling style this would be more structured than that, but will not replicate a traditional scope and sequence for highschool. It would absolutely require (and advises) the student do their own research with outside material on each topic, so what depth they go depends on what materials they use, what level those are, etc. I would think most kids would also need some more guided writing assignments depending on natural ability, past instruction, future goals, etc. But kids get into college in my area using zero formal curricula, so I can't say that they couldn't or wouldn't get in using this.   In Florida, kids can easily get into our community colleges (which are now offer four year degress as well as two year degrees) without any particular scope and sequence, and an associates degree from there guarantees you entrance into the bigger university system, so having had, say, a biochemistry based biology class with lab is not a requirement for getting into college. Other areas that will vary and what curriculum one uses should reflect that. And given that the owner hasn't educated kids in highschool I think anyone planning to use it for that should do their own research into what their kid needs. My kids are 4th and under right now, so not something I'm worried about currently. And with my oldest...we used regular materials and he just skated by when he did do/use them, so heck, he might have done better with something like this if he'd actually used and enjoyed it rather than blowing off the "right" stuff. 

But honestly? AT this point I am SO over the entire educational-industrial complex, the college board, the testing, the entire system of "do this so then you can go to this school so you can get into this major so you can have this job so that you can work 50-80 hours a week with no work life balance so that you can pay back your student loans and afford health insurance you can't afford to use"....so over it. That's not why I got into homeschooling. And of course, I had a kid that refused to participate in that system anyway, even when i still sort of believed in it, or felt I had to be part of it for his sake. So I think Gather Round is for people like that. I still think calling it "enough" is a bad idea because what "enough" is varies depending on your goals and your student's needs and abilities. But if your goal is to have interesting topics to research together, to go to the library and load up on books about those topics, watch videos and documentaries about them, find crafts and projects together, etc, it will do that. For right now, that's what we need and want, so we will continue until I either find something that makes it not usable for our purposes. Because when we use it my kids are excited to talk to DH about what they learned, and are having great discussions, and linking things together in a way they haven't before. And that's worth a lot. 

[Allie]

I saw Rebecca announced she’s having a Gather Round retreat now? I just don’t understand how this thing has gotten so big.

In regards to editing as just mentioned above - she has on her website that “proofreaders don’t need to have a degree, but grammar knowledge helps.”

That is so alarming to me, along with the fact that the “experts” she is using are not all experts. Some are just using google. 
 

It is one thing to have a non-traditional curriculum. It’s another to have a company touting an all in one (except math) that works K-12 without supplementation needed when they (by their own admission) do not hire professional writers or editors or educators. Her background in flitting around from YouTube reviewer, to TGTB lover, to hating TGTB, to writing for masterbooks to this is also super concerning to me as that all happened in like twelve months. 

[ByGrace3]

I actually love the idea of this . . . I am a bit too systematic to use it above elementary, but I am looking for something for a year long special situation homeschool year we will have next year and something along these lines would fit the bill. The reading selections for middle school and highschool are a bit of a joke. Mr. Popper's Penguins? We loved that for early elementary read aloud and a great reader for late elementary. There is no writing instruction and the grammar and spelling are not systematic enough for me. That said, I really like using unit studies just for history/literature usually and can see maybe using the birds and oceans ones for science with my 5 yo and 2 10yo's. However, I think the middle school notebooking/activities are more appropriate for the upper elementary kids. This looks very "BraveWriter" to me. The last few years we have done a history/literature BW type unit studies in a classical twist that works really well for us. I can see this being a good jumping off point for that. We would do separate grammar, spelling, and additional writing (about the topic but in a more systematic/ TC way). 

It seems expensive...for 4 weeks of material, $50? Then I think, I can just write my own. Which is what I usually end up doing . . . because I won't use over half of it anyway. Oh well, the idea is what I am looking for . . . perhaps just not the execution. 

8, if I remember correctly, you tend to take a topical approach in the early years as well? (not unit studies as in all LA included but integrating writing etc? I think I got a lot of my ideas of the last few years validated by many of your posts 🙂

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

I actually love the idea of this . . . I am a bit too systematic to use it above elementary, but I am looking for something for a year long special situation homeschool year we will have next year and something along these lines would fit the bill. The reading selections for middle school and highschool are a bit of a joke. Mr. Popper's Penguins? We loved that for early elementary read aloud and a great reader for late elementary. There is no writing instruction and the grammar and spelling are not systematic enough for me. That said, I really like using unit studies just for history/literature usually and can see maybe using the birds and oceans ones for science with my 5 yo and 2 10yo's. However, I think the middle school notebooking/activities are more appropriate for the upper elementary kids. This looks very "BraveWriter" to me. The last few years we have done a history/literature BW type unit studies in a classical twist that works really well for us. I can see this being a good jumping off point for that. We would do separate grammar, spelling, and additional writing (about the topic but in a more systematic/ TC way). 

It seems expensive...for 4 weeks of material, $50? Then I think, I can just write my own. Which is what I usually end up doing . . . because I won't use over half of it anyway. Oh well, the idea is what I am looking for . . . perhaps just not the execution. 

8, if I remember correctly, you tend to take a topical approach in the early years as well? (not unit studies as in all LA included but integrating writing etc? I think I got a lot of my ideas of the last few years validated by many of your posts 🙂

This sums up my thoughts pretty well.  The cost is exorbitant for what you receive.  Pulling together a unit study and integrating across subjects is simple, certainly not $500 worth of costs for a school yr (especially when all of the supplementation is still the responsibility of the parent???  Ridiculous.)  

Yes, I create simple (not 100% 1-to-1 correspondence) studies for my kids that integrate multiple subjects.  All it takes is a simple idea and plugging in resources.  (This yr we are reading Chronicles of Narnia and studying the history of England, oceanography, geography, astronomy, etc....writing is pulled from science and history topics with simple reports exploring whatever selected topic in more depth.  Cost? $0.  Everything is easily acquired from the library, internet, streaming documentaries, or books on our shelves.  Time necessary to pull things together?  Minimal, maybe a few hrs every 5-6 weeks.  

I do the same when they are older. The time commitment to pull together is longer bc the topics become more complex and more targeted resources are needed.  But, equally, everything is age/grade/ability appropriate vs. using completely inappropriate level materials. 

For parents who don't want to spend the time figuring it out on their own, there are QUALITY unit study materials available for a fraction of the price and with more complete assignments/suggestions.  Amanda Bennett's 4 week units are less than $19/mo.  https://unitstudy.com/collections/unit-study-adventures I have never used them, but just giving a brief look the resources are at least imbedded links.

[ktgrok]

14 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

I actually love the idea of this . . . I am a bit too systematic to use it above elementary, but I am looking for something for a year long special situation homeschool year we will have next year and something along these lines would fit the bill. The reading selections for middle school and highschool are a bit of a joke. Mr. Popper's Penguins? We loved that for early elementary read aloud and a great reader for late elementary. There is no writing instruction and the grammar and spelling are not systematic enough for me. That said, I really like using unit studies just for history/literature usually and can see maybe using the birds and oceans ones for science with my 5 yo and 2 10yo's. However, I think the middle school notebooking/activities are more appropriate for the upper elementary kids. This looks very "BraveWriter" to me. The last few years we have done a history/literature BW type unit studies in a classical twist that works really well for us. I can see this being a good jumping off point for that. We would do separate grammar, spelling, and additional writing (about the topic but in a more systematic/ TC way). 

It seems expensive...for 4 weeks of material, $50? Then I think, I can just write my own. Which is what I usually end up doing . . . because I won't use over half of it anyway. Oh well, the idea is what I am looking for . . . perhaps just not the execution. 

8, if I remember correctly, you tend to take a topical approach in the early years as well? (not unit studies as in all LA included but integrating writing etc? I think I got a lot of my ideas of the last few years validated by many of your posts 🙂

We definitely don't use it for 4 weeks only. I've been on birds for a month at least and still have half to go. Seems most people use it for longer, stretching it out with more projects, research, books, etc. Even the owner suggests doing 4 days a week for 5 weeks. But I do think the price is high. It is gorgeous, I'll give it that, but I do think the price is too high. Especially since if you want cursive that is an additional book/fee. Now, it is mostly marketed to families with multiple children - so per KID is is more reasonable, depending on how many kids you have. Even with just two using it, and if I did it for 4 days a week for 5 weeks, that is only $20 per kid, per month, which isn't terrible if you use free resources for everything else (library books, online research, youtube, PBS, etc). We do buy a few things that my son's scholarship covers - we got a kit of science activities relating to birds from one place, and we bought Bird Bingo, and we bought another bird feeder, lol. And I decided to renew our local PBS station membership for this so we could get full access to all their documentaries plus a curiostity stream membership, so that's $10 a month for those two things, but I'd do that anyway probably, no matter what we used. 

I honsetly haven't looked at the book lists much, I can't speak to those. I just go to the library website and look up the topic,  and take what I can get. From what I can tell, even those doing the reviews on youtube and such do the same. She'd do better just giving dewey decimals codes. I do look up some of the picture books. 

Then, when we hit a lesson that has other things I can rabbit trail,we do that. So when we learned that a particular bird lived only east of the Rocky Mountains, and then mapped out where those were, I looked up some videos on the Rocky Mountains. When we learned that the European Starling was released into the US by Shakespeare advocates who wanted to introduce all the animals in his works into the US, and the kids read a page about Shakepeare in the Gather Round Notebook, I pulled up the episode of Who Was on Netflix that covered Shakespeare, and took down the print of the Globe Theatre that we have hanging on our wall, and had I been on the ball I would have grabbed a kids book about shakespeare from the library. 

Same amount of work as I was doing for Layers of Learning when we tried that unit, and yes, more expensive, but this also has more to do, and has art worked into each day which my 10 yr old LOVES and has a coloring page that goes with the day's learning for my almost 3 yr old so she thinks she is doing the same thing as the other kids without me having to search one out, and has the gorgeous anatomy print outs of each bird, and a really cool book log, etc etc. Should those things make it cost THAT much more? No. But am I willing to pay that much? For now, yes. 

If I had only one kid, and more time? Probably not. 

I will say the facebook group is a very supportive, fun group compared to some. It skews young, as others mentioned this is created by someone with young kids and that shows. But the energy of people learning with their kids, and enjoying family time, is nice. And people do post concerns, problems, errors, etc and those are kept up - although after they are answered and have a good amount of comments those get turned off, which happens in most groups I'm in. But the post is left up, with the comments, etc. And people are free to mention other resources, like for say, a kid with dyslexia or whatever, which is better than freaking Master Books who won't even allow that! (whole other rant of mine, that their language arts and math are SUCH a good fit for my kid this year, that I am using them despite not liking them). 

Oh, one more thing - I was REALLY critical of the owner of Gather Round for her video about why she isn't using The Good and the Beautiful - I got very turned off when she said she felt she had to say something as an "authority". I was like, why on earth do you think you have to say anything, you are just a youtube lady. But I listened to something she did recently, and there was more to it. She was a paid promoter of the Good and the Beautiful, doing monthly promotional videos or something, and then was asked to consider being a content provider for a unit they were considering on Canadian history. So the reasoning behind her publishing her concerns, as an "authority" made more sense to me - if she was being vocal about promoting them as a paid promoter that does make her more responsible for people using them, and I suppose if she felt convicted to stop, that she'd feel responsible for saying why. I don't agree with her reasons, nor a hunk of her theology, but at least I get where she was coming from now. 

As for the popularity, part of it is she had a following already, part of it is the fun of using it, and part of it is something she hit on - that people like change. At least, homeschoolers often like new and different and not getting in a rut, so switching things up every 4-5 weeks or so feeds into that. I know I fall into that category! 

[8filltheheart]

12 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Amanda Bennett's 4 week units are less than $19/mo.  https://unitstudy.com/collections/unit-study-adventures I have never used them, but just giving a brief look the resources are at least imbedded links.

@Ktgrok Have you looked at these?

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

@Ktgrok Have you looked at these?

I think we did a Christmas one and were not pleased with it, but maybe it wasn't those? I'm going to check now, thank you. 

[knitgrl]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

Oh those Bennett studies remind me of Intelligo! I wonder if they are still around. I was really enamored with them for a while. 

 

I bought a few Intelligo studies, before Currclick went out of business. It looks like they aren't available at Homeschool Buyer's Coop anymore, either. We used the Orchestra one, and bits of the Astronomy one. I have no idea if I have more, as there really is no way of searching for them on my computer (Intelligo isn't in the file name) and their name wasn't on any of the order confirmations I got from Currclick. A lesson for all those who sell pdfs.....

[ByGrace3]

Well, drastic situations made me purchase two of the units. 😂 ( we have added 2 children to our family and I will be homeschooling 5 next  year . . . I definitely don't have the time to recreate the wheel at this point). I also was looking for some unit studies to just be a framework for our science studies. I purchased the birds and oceans unit. I will plan to spread each out for 2-3 months instead of one month -- adding on a lot of supplemental material, tons of hands on field trips, etc. I also plan to do a couple more units on other animals -- we will be getting a zoo membership, already have one to the nature center, and have a lively bird watching group at another nature center that I would like to do something with . . . 

My observations thus far -- the pages are very aesthetically pleasing. The pre-reader is not helpful to me -- it has a lot cut and paste phonics activities which I don't need - we will be using it for science. The social studies activities are fine. The writing for the middle school and high school is good supplemental activities and in line with what I like to use for science/history. The high school is supplemental at best. I would not use it for a high schooler. I haven't decided if I will use the middle or high school version for my 8th grader, but the writing projects are similar and appropriate for science writing projects. (He will be doing a complete LA program in addition). My two 10 year olds (5th grade next year) will probably use the upper elementary, but maybe the middle school . . . haven't decided yet. 

All of my kids will have their own phonics (for the Ker), spelling, and grammar separately.... we will use some of the grammar and spelling activities as supplement, but not all. We will use the writing activities to fulfill our goal of "writing across the curriculum," but I am sure we will supplement heavily and the 5th graders will be working through TC  next year, and my 8th grader will  be using Lantern English. On a normal year I do think that the writing in the unit could be sufficient with little supplementation, but next year is a writing focus year for us (All of my kids go through TC in 4th/5th) and I want my rising 8th grader to have a writing focused year before high school as he has been "writing across the curriculum" without a writing curriculum pretty much since he completed TC. 

I may purchase Memoria Press birds study to go along with it. I love MP materials but by themselves they are incredibly dry.  I do enjoy using them as a guide and I think they might supplement this bird unit well to turn it into a 3 or so month long course. Our school year for science will then be: Ocean animals, birds, and then probably a study on mammals... 

I hope I use enough of it to justify the exorbitant price . . . and maybe in a different situation I would have never paid it . . . but we shall see! 

[Allie]

Did anyone see on the GR Facebook group that she’s pitching an idea for a GR app? She’s asking for people to fund it, and is posting updates/progress toward goal. And of course she’s saying it’s okay if it doesn’t happen, that just means it’s not God’s timing, but in the same breath she says “we only have x amount right now”. 
 

It really bothers me that she’s asking for money from homeschool families right now given everything going on in the world. 

[Allie]

So I did some digging and thankfully she’s only asking $12 from people so that’s not bad, but she wants 1000 people to contribute. She also mentioned co-op licensing prices coming soon. She’s definitely trying to expand this thing at some crazy pace. They are having online convention too, which was originally supposed to be in person. She’s in way over her head. I still think it’s tacky to ask to fund anything at the moment. Here’s what she said:

“It's here! I delayed posting about this because I wanted to make sure I could come up with something valuable to offer you for being on the ground floor of this app. I decided that everyone who purchases an increment to help us reach our 1,000 purchases goal will receive our digital Human Body add on book (probably the most special, anointed project of our little business thus far): God Doesn't Make Mistakes (title subject to change)!  I don't know what I'll price it at, but you'll be saving on it. IF anything goes wrong with that project, I'll find another way to make sure you get value for your contribution.   You can purchase more than 1 if you want to help get it off the floor. 

I have decided I will not purchase until we have full support for this just because we have so many projects right now and so many things to pay for. It takes 4-6 weeks to create, they are giving us a $500 discount if we get it this week but I will wait to make sure we have support first which I totally get could take a while.   Hopefully offering value back to you will mean we can support it sooner.”

“App support is a bit slow, which I totally get during this time, we have 447 out of 1000. I will get the ball rolling once we are at 80% but I will try to do a live about it to explain and see if I can boost that. Otherwise it might just not be the right time. IF we don't get support, that will be refunded ❤️ I am not worried, don't be worried, if it's supposed to happen God will make it happen. This is His thing. ”

[ktgrok]

Right, pretty sure the app idea started before things got so crazy here, before people laid off, etc. I have not bought in as I have no real interest in it, but she does say she's refunding it, so okay. 

Also, before launching the fundraising/crowdsourcing/whatever, she had a poll up I think, or was asking for opinions, on if people wanted an app. So people in the group did want this, it wasn't a blind money grab. 

[Allie]

22 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Right, pretty sure the app idea started before things got so crazy here, before people laid off, etc. I have not bought in as I have no real interest in it, but she does say she's refunding it, so okay. 

Also, before launching the fundraising/crowdsourcing/whatever, she had a poll up I think, or was asking for opinions, on if people wanted an app. So people in the group did want this, it wasn't a blind money grab. 

 

Looks like she first brought it up on the 16th in a video, then the post above was on the 21st, so definitely in the middle of this pandemic. Personally, it just feels icky to me. 

My concern, aside from that, is just that she's trying to make this take off in a million ways all at once. It's a lot even for an experienced business owner. Her business is brand new and her actual material has a lot of editing/flaws that need to be taken care of. I believe her focus should be there.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Allie said:

 

Looks like she first brought it up on the 16th in a video, then the post above was on the 21st, so definitely in the middle of this pandemic. Personally, it just feels icky to me. 

My concern, aside from that, is just that she's trying to make this take off in a million ways all at once. It's a lot even for an experienced business owner. Her business is brand new and her actual material has a lot of editing/flaws that need to be taken care of. I believe her focus should be there.

I agree - I do know several of the units have been edited/redone, so she is doing that as well. But I don't see the point in an app.

[8filltheheart]

11 hours ago, Allie said:

Looks like she first brought it up on the 16th in a video, then the post above was on the 21st, so definitely in the middle of this pandemic. Personally, it just feels icky to me. 

My concern, aside from that, is just that she's trying to make this take off in a million ways all at once. It's a lot even for an experienced business owner. Her business is brand new and her actual material has a lot of editing/flaws that need to be taken care of. I believe her focus should be there.

The fact that 5 days is described as "App support is a bit slow," is absolutely alarming from my outsider's perspective.  

[Allie]

I still believe she could have had a fantastic business selling subject specific unit studies and just marketed it as family style instead of an all-inclusive curriculum. 
 

She’s bitten off far more than she can chew. 

[Wheres Toto]

So if I'm reading the quote above, they have someone on hold to create the app but the actual creation/programming hasn't even started yet and won't start until they get the 80% funding?   I hope she's done an assessment about how well her vision for the app will actually work in real life/under real use conditions.  

I feel like the "$500 discount if we get it this week", feels like pushy sales technique that keep you from thinking about a decision.  "Act Now!  Save More!".  Sounds like an infomercial.  Icky.

$12 for an app seems high to me unless it's truly amazing.

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, mshanson3121 said:

 I don't see them surviving long term at this pace. You just can't go at this pace, 

I wonder who is doing her bookkeeping.  I have panic attacks thinking about dealing with the sales taxes for my state.  I have to file county, city, and state sales taxes every month.  At least I don't have contractors or plan on selling via curriculum fairs, etc bc all of those things create a tax nexus in that location.  I can't imagine keeping up with all of the legal issues on top of the rate that she is expanding her business.  It would completely stress me out unless I had a good tax attorney and accountant.  (But, since she is seeking customers to pay for her business expansion into an app, I wonder if she is doing her own bookkeeping.  Definitely would cause me to have a breakdown!!)

[Wheres Toto]

What is the app going to do?  I just looked at her (Homeschool On) Facebook page and the website and can't figure it out.  I don't want to join the Gather Round group. 

[Allie]

1 hour ago, Where's Toto? said:

What is the app going to do?  I just looked at her (Homeschool On) Facebook page and the website and can't figure it out.  I don't want to join the Gather Round group. 

Here is a link to a page about it. 
 

https://gatherroundhomeschool.com/products/app-supporter

[Wheres Toto]

So it sounds like the app is similar to a Facebook group or a forum.  Someplace for users to meet up and have discussions, share ideas, videos, etc.   I wouldn't pay $12 for that.  

There are a lot of typos and grammar errors on the website.    I was surprised to see she could require employees to agree with her statement of faith.  Is that a usual thing?  I've never seen it before.  

[ktgrok]

She's in Canada, I wonder if the tax thing is less complicated there? No idea. 

[8filltheheart]

48 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

She's in Canada, I wonder if the tax thing is less complicated there? No idea. 

She still has to comply with state laws if she sells there.  I spent a lot of time researching tax and business licensing laws.  Months, actually, before I was willing to jump in and start selling.  It really depends on $$ amt/# of sales and nexus.  And, every state has different threshold requirements. The $$ amt/#of sales tend to signifcantly high, but nexus laws can apply to every sale.  (For example, I have to report sales even if $0 in-state every month with a $50 fine every month not reported.)  I am not joking when I say the licensing and tax laws give me panic attacks.  They really do.  I shut my business down when we moved precisely bc I did not want to have to deal with the nexus laws in this state.  It is only bc I have so much more free time right now bc of being under quarantine that I have decided to jump back into the process.

Quote

You are an international seller who has no physical presence in the U.S., but who makes sales into the U.S.

In this case, you may have economic nexus. A June 21, 2018 Supreme Court of the United States case allowed states to require online sellers with “economic nexus” in their state to comply with that state’s sales tax requirements.

This simply means that if a seller – no matter where they are located – makes a certain dollar amount of sales in a state, or a a certain number of transactions with buyers in that state, then they are required to collect sales tax in that state.

Does Your Business Need to Collect U.S. Sales Tax?

Sales Tax Nexus

U.S. states can only require sellers to charge sales taxes if that seller has “sales tax nexus” in that state. Nexus simply means that your business has significant presence in that state. Here are some of the factors that can establish nexus in a state:

• A Physical Presence – Such as a home office, warehouse, store, or other location
• Affiliates – Someone who sends customers to your online store for a percentage of the profits from a sale
• Personnel – Employees, salespeople, and even some contractors can establish nexus
• Drop Shipping – A situation where you have a relationship with a supplier to ship inventory to your customers
• Selling items at a trade or craft show

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[Wheres Toto]

In her FAQs she mentions her prices are in US dollars because that's where most of her sales are, despite her location being Canada.  

Under her Now Hiring section she mentions hiring people to work conventions but it almost sounds like it wouldn't be an employee situation, maybe because that would establish a nexus? 

we could have people all over the world that go to conventions and set up tables with their own product and get free curriculum in exchange for selling for us. Again, this is a thought, not a guarantee, but I'll put it on here as potential. You would have to agree with the statement of faith for this as well and ideally have all the units so that you can show them.

I find the set up interesting because I teach science classes and have considered selling a curriculum based on what I've done in class.  There are so many details to think about though, I don't know if I ever will want to deal with all of that. 

[8filltheheart]

17 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

In her FAQs she mentions her prices are in US dollars because that's where most of her sales are, despite her location being Canada.  

Under her Now Hiring section she mentions hiring people to work conventions but it almost sounds like it wouldn't be an employee situation, maybe because that would establish a nexus? 

we could have people all over the world that go to conventions and set up tables with their own product and get free curriculum in exchange for selling for us. Again, this is a thought, not a guarantee, but I'll put it on here as potential. You would have to agree with the statement of faith for this as well and ideally have all the units so that you can show them.

I find the set up interesting because I teach science classes and have considered selling a curriculum based on what I've done in class.  There are so many details to think about though, I don't know if I ever will want to deal with all of that. 

I'm not sure how she can avoid sales taxes on the products she is selling at curriculum fairs.  I don't know how editors and writers are considered as contractors in terms of nexus, but that is definitely a question that I would personally investigate.  At minimum she is required to provide 1099s for contractors who make more than $600.  Does GR have affliates? And if her "cult-like following" is yielding high sales, she might meet the nexus threshold just based on sales alone.

It really is completely overwhleming.  The complexity of being a small business seller definitely varies by state.  We lived in a complicated state and then moved to an incredibly easy state.  (Super easy.) Then we moved to a complicated state (and after living in the easy state, I really, really did not want the stress of the complicated state which is why I shut my business down.)  There are so many details.  I met with accountants.  Talked to lawyers about copyright law.  Talking to them pretty much almost made me not even start!  It is a huge undertaking. I think a lot of people just jump in ignoring the law. (Even on these forums I was told as a small seller on TPT I wouldn't need a business license which is absolutely incorrect.) I wonder with the economic downturn if states will become even more diligent to ensure they are getting their tax dollars.

Edited March 31, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[8filltheheart]

10 hours ago, Servant4Christ said:

Or maybe they'll be more lenient to encourage small businesses to stay in business.

The IRS and state's budgets don't function via empathy.  If there is an exchange of $$, you can be assured that they perk up.  I don't know how Canadian tax laws function, but even the crowdfunding approach she is taking for her app would be taxable in the US bc she is offering something in exchange for the donation. Businesses have to comply with the law.  There isn't an emotional component. Homeschoolers got a small insight about the implications with Landry. 

All that said, she may very well have everything covered.  She might have accountants and tax attorneys with whom she is working.  I don't want to come across like I am conjecturing that she isn't following tax laws!  I probably shouldn't have even brought it up.  Tax laws are just occupying my mind a lot right now and stressing me out personally.  I am projecting my stress onto this thread! 😉 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

The IRS and state's budgets don't function via empathy.  If there is an exchange of $$, you can be assured that they perk up.  I don't know how Canadian tax laws function, but even the crowdfunding approach she is taking for her app would be taxable in the US bc she is offering something in exchange for the donation. Businesses have to comply with the law.  There isn't an emotional component. Homeschoolers got a small insight about the implications with Landry. 

All that said, she may very well have everything covered.  She might have accountants and tax attorneys with whom she is working.  I don't want to come across like I am conjecturing that she isn't following tax laws!  I probably shouldn't have even brought it up.  Tax laws are just occupying my mind a lot right now and stressing me out personally.  I am projecting my stress onto this thread! 😉 

She very well might. I think her husband is in law enforcement, so I mean, at some level they believe in law and order I guess. 

But I agree that sales tax is stressful as heck! It is whey when I did dog training I refused to sell products, only services. It would ahve been convenient to sell my clients leashes, the collars and harnesses I recommended, the treats I advised, etc. But no way was it worth it. I just gave them a list. Other trainers get around it by charging for training "packages" that include a "free" harness or what not. 

[Wheres Toto]

12 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I'm not sure how she can avoid sales taxes on the products she is selling at curriculum fairs.  I don't know how editors and writers are considered as contractors in terms of nexus, but that is definitely a question that I would personally investigate.  At minimum she is required to provide 1099s for contractors who make more than $600.  Does GR have affliates? And if her "cult-like following" is yielding high sales, she might meet the nexus threshold just based on sales alone.

It really is completely overwhleming.  The complexity of being a small business seller definitely varies by state.  We lived in a complicated state and then moved to an incredibly easy state.  (Super easy.) Then we moved to a complicated state (and after living in the easy state, I really, really did not want the stress of the complicated state which is why I shut my business down.)  There are so many details.  I met with accountants.  Talked to lawyers about copyright law.  Talking to them pretty much almost made me not even start!  It is a huge undertaking. I think a lot of people just jump in ignoring the law. (Even on these forums I was told as a small seller on TPT I wouldn't need a business license which is absolutely incorrect.) I wonder with the economic downturn if states will become even more diligent to ensure they are getting their tax dollars.

Yeah, I have a feeling NJ isn't likely to be one of the easier states to deal with.   I'm going to be hiring my first employees for September (assuming......) and that might be enough change for now.   

1 hour ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

Absolutely pointless. I just read it - there's nothing it offers other than a chat forum, that she doesn't already offer via Facebook, email etc.... So I would say it's mostly the forum that is appealing to people. And, there are a lot of people that prefer web forums to Facebook, I'll concede that. But a forum itself could be set up for far less than $12K. 

I notice that the app will actually be free for users, once the $12000 is raised. So the first 1000 are paying for everyone else to get it for free. She said to look at is as doing something special for others. In return they will get a free ebook. 

And hey if they want to spend their money on it, good for them I guess. I just still feel like she is in way over her head. I cringed reading the web post. Her writing style is just so unprofessional. 

So does this mean she doesn't need to pay taxes on the app since they are "donations" and she's not selling it?  

I find the whole thing weird and kind of fascinating.  And yes, I found her writing style cringe worthy, but hitting that balance between professional and friendly is something I struggle with, especially since I'm getting to know my students and parents IRL.  I always default toward professional though. 

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

In Canada, no, donations/gifts are non taxable. But she'll need to pay taxes on the interest the money accrues. It's the same as lottery earnings - they're not taxable in Canada, only the interest they generate. 

Is that true if the donator receives something in return?  She is offering a free book in exchange for the donation, so it isn't technically just a donation.  Something is being exchanged.  But that may be the difference between how the US sees crowdfunding and Canada.  

[ktgrok]

22 hours ago, seemesew said:

I haven't read the other comments but I did download the free unit and looked extensively at some others.

My thoughts are that it is very, very light work for upper elementary and middle schoolers on up. There isn't enough work for them if you use it the way she says too. For Elementary (prek-3rd) its okay and looks fun for them. I can tell her kids are not in highschool as those are laughably light.

As for the price I think its actually rather high since you still have to print and $50 a month is expensive when you still have to add math and phonics (her phonics is not enough to start reading but I can't remember if she says it is meant to be enough or not), and for kids above 3rd grade they will need LA, reading, and more for the science (either to with her stuff or something different).

All in all I have been able to find other stuff for cheaper and it is more in depth or just as in depth. I may use it occasionally for fun but would never use it for our only source since I have 3 kids in middle/highschool and need something heavier for them. My 2 that are younger would probably enjoy it but I would never pay $50 a month only to have to print something just for them, that would be way too much money for their ages (1st and prek in the fall) when I still have to add reading and math.

Anyways just my thoughts.

My fourth grader uses it, and what we do is stretch the lessons out. So some days we do a full lesson, but more often than not we do it over two days, adding in other LA, videos, documentaries, non fiction books, read alouds, etc. By doing it over two days that makes room for more traditional LA work, and decreases the cost per day/month/whatever. So we've been doing North American Birds forever now I think, lol, and will start Asia after Easter. So at that point it is more like $25 per month for the pack with all the levels. Or $10 a month if getting a single level/guide. 

And I personally don't think the pre-reader is something I'd do. I mean, maybe for fun, if I was already getting the full bundle, but if I had a preK and 1st grader I'd get just the early reader, and make an extra copy of the coloring page for the preK kid. So that's the $19 package, and again, we stretch it out. Not saying YOU should do it, just what I would do with kids that age. 

[Allie]

34 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

Oh good GRIEF. Now she's planning even more! 

She plans to write a math curriculum (oh and only the high school math writer has a degree in math 🤦🤦🤦)

She plans to write Canadian and US History mini units.

And she plans to create a yearly planner. 

All while she acknowledged she's already going back and redoing some of the previously released units. 

 

I was just coming here to post about the math! 
 

“• Math! It's coming! We had our first official meeting, we have three amazing writers (our upper level math writer has a degree in theoretical mathematics). This project is huge, with a budget far greater than any of our main units, and I am determined not to do it if I can't do it well. In my mind, this is going to be amazing, but it's a beast you guys! We are aiming to take 2 years to slowly launch it, one unit every 2 months. But each unit will have 12 notebooks covering all 12 grades (they will be named as A B C so that you can place wherever). We will have a placement test and our first one we are aiming to release end of August. No clue yet on pricing, the idea is buy it once and you literally have math forever, so I have to pray and think on this one. But just know it is coming!”

[8filltheheart]

I am speechless. 

And honestly, I am even more dumbfounded by the consumers.  

Edited April 4, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[maize]

There are so many good homeschool math options already, I do not understand reinventing the wheel unless you are both knowledgeable and passionate about math education and have something unique to contribute.

[8filltheheart]

22 minutes ago, maize said:

There are so many good homeschool math options already, I do not understand reinventing the wheel unless you are both knowledgeable and passionate about math education and have something unique to

I also dont think having a degree equates to the ability to write a good 4 yr high school marh curriculum. Knowledge of subject is one component, not the only one. Creating a comprehensive complete curriculum from scratch is a huge undertaking.

[maize]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I also dont think having a degree equates to the ability to write a good 4 yr high school marh curriculum. Knowledge of subject is one component, not the only one. Creating a comprehensive complete curriculum from scratch is a huge undertaking.

And being good at a subject does not necessarily equate to being good at teaching that subject--I've found that the best teachers are often those who struggled with a subject but persevered to mastery. Those to whom a particular subject or skill comes easily are less equipped to teach people who have to struggle to grasp it.

Of course I don't know anything about the prospective curriculum authors, just another reason to be wary of the assumption that having a degree in a given subject equips someone to author curriculum in that subject.

Degree in math plus many years of teaching high school math would be more creditable.

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

And being good at a subject does not necessarily equate to being good at teaching that subject--I've found that the best teachers are often those who struggled with a subject but persevered to mastery. Those to whom a particular subject or skill comes easily are less equipped to teach people who have to struggle to grasp it.

Of course I don't know anything about the prospective curriculum authors, just another reason to be wary of the assumption that having a degree in a given subject equips someone to author curriculum in that subject.

Degree in math plus many years of teaching high school math would be more creditable.

I think about authors like Foerster and Jacobs.  Both great math textbook authors and neither one attempted to write math textbooks covering all standard high school math subjects.  Foerster does not have a geometry book. Jacobs stopped at alg 1 and geo.  Many math textbooks have multiple authors. 

Beyond that, I don't know why one would bother.  It isn't like there aren't a wide variety of math programs already available that can meet the needs different types of students.

 

[Wheres Toto]

THEORETICAL mathematics doesn't seem like the degree you want in someone writing an algebra text.  

[8filltheheart]

17 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Money?  Isn't that clearly the motivation?

True, which goes back to the consumer. ????

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I decided that since I was expressing skepticism about the author’s motives I should also actually look at the program, and now I am baffled.  The passages marked “reading” are the same for “Early Reader” and “High School”.  How can that be?  They are very far beyond what my kids could read as  “Early readers”, the first one used the work significant in the first sentence.  But they are definitely not high school level either.  
 

Also is the part where you color a hedgehog and fill out a graphic organizer with hedgehog facts supposed to be high school science?  That’s way below the level of 9th grade Gen Ed science at the school where I teach.  
 

I could maybe see doing this with my fourth grader, (although I didn’t open that level I assume they have the same reading passage and hedgehog) the level might be about right but I would look at other resources first.

I haven't seen that one, but I know in general the high school students (and I'm not saying I'd use it for high school for most kids) are generally expected to be researching the day's topics in outside materials. The parent usually reads the info to the group of assembled kids, and then the younger kids fill out their notebooking page based on what was read by mom, plus any discussion/videos, etc you did together. The older kids add in other research on their own on the topic. 

Also, in the facebook group the general consensus I see is that highschool students should be adding in a science lab course, plus the normal electives such as foreign language, etc. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Ktgrok

[8filltheheart]

6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I haven't seen that one, but I know in general the high school students (and I'm not saying I'd use it for high school for most kids) are generally expected to be researching the day's topics in outside materials. The parent usually reads the info to the group of assembled kids, and then the younger kids fill out their notebooking page based on what was read by mom, plus any discussion/videos, etc you did together. The older kids add in other research on their own on the topic. 

Also, in the facebook group the general consensus I see is that highschool students should be adding in a science lab course, plus the normal electives such as foreign language, etc. 

That is a lot of additional supplementing/work for the outlayed cost.  $50/mo seems outrageously expensive for what you describe. For comparison, Connie's excellent honors chemistry (fabulous teaching, office hrs, and all grading) is $60/ or $35 if you grade. Derek Owes is $58/mo with grading, $29.50 if you grade. And these courses include daily in-depth lectures, all assignments, etc.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

That is a lot of additional supplementing/work for the outlayed cost.  $50/mo seems outrageously expensive for what you describe. For comparison, Connie's excellent honors chemistry (fabulous teaching, office hrs, and all grading) is $60/ or $35 if you grade. Derek Owes is $58/mo with grading, $29.50 if you grade. And these courses include daily in-depth lectures, all assignments, etc.

But that $50 a month includes all six levels from pre-reader up,  not just one course for highschool. If using with just one student/level you would get the single student package which is I think $19. But very few use it for one age/grade. Its audience is people with lots of kids, that want to do at least part of the day together. I'd say most people using it have 3, 4, or more kids - several in the facebook group have many more than that. I'm not saying it is inexpensive, it isn't. But when spread out over multiple kids, it seems more affordable. So for say, the next lesson I'm doing with my kids, I'd read the teacher's guide part about the Trumpeter Swan. We'll watch some videos about them, and look at their range map on the Cornell site. We will compare the official range map to the sightings map. (I stream all the websites to the TV in the living room so we can all see). We'll ask questions, maybe look up some answers. Almost always we look up what their nests look like, and their eggs (those are described in the teacher info but helps to see them). We listen to their calls. As we do that my  just turned 3 yr old will usually color the picture that goes with that lesson. Then my kids will fill out their notebooking page about the Trumpeter Swan using what we discussed and my teacher guide and field guides we have. A highschool student would add in more research, using the Cornell or other websites, field guides, news articles, etc and fill out theirs and list the sources they used.  Often they are also record the classification of the bird so over time they will note which are related. Together we'd talk about Haiku poetry next and everyone would work on writing one. I'd expect my highschooler to find more examples and talk to me about which ones they like or don't, history of haiku perhaps, etc, which they could either then share/teach the younger ones about, or discuss with me in the afternoon when the younger ones were playing.  (the essay for the unit would have been due the day before- a suggested topic was how urbanization effects the North American bird population). Everyone has a page for dictation or writing from memory a bible verse - older kids get a longer version of the verse or more verses.  Yes, this is simplistic academically for a highschool student, but it's a nice way to all be learning a verse from the bible together, and I would have already had a conversation with them when the verse was first introduced about what it means, how it applies to our lives, etc.  Then we'd talk about how throughout the unit we've learned about how humans impact various bird species. I'd read the info in the student book to the younger ones and they'd answer a few questions - multiple choice for the youngest, writing a few sentences for the older ones, and a highschooler would go off and research more specifically how the early settlers of their country lived and hunted and what they traded, and how that impacted wetland habitats and wildlife in that area. They have a page to write down 8 different facts/info they find, and then are to write a cohesive paragraph about what they found. Finally, everyone has an art page - little kids color in a Trumpeter swan or use watercolors to paint it, older ones sketch it. Highschool students are encouraged to label their drawing. Then everyone does their own math, and their own independent reading/literature, etc plus any extra subjects, dual enrollment, apprenticeship, independent study, extracurricular activities, etc.  Later that night we will probably have fun watching The Trumpet of the Swan. If I had an older kid doing it as well I'd want to watch Swan Lake with them. (I'll likely show a clip to my kids)

It definitely is not a traditional highschool course in any sense of the word. It focuses on getting kids researching things - often having them pick their own aspect of the topic they are most interested in, other times giving more specific direction, and then sharing that information with others. And leaves a lot of time for the student for extracurricular or career prep, trade apprenticeship, dual enrollment, etc. Would I use it for a highschool student? I don't know. It would depend on the kid and what their goals are, what they want,  how they learn, and how disillusioned I am by that point with the traditional system, lol. I can say that as an adult I'm learning lots of new things just doing the lower grades stuff with my kids, so I'm sure a highschool student would be learning as well - just different stuff than is normal. I don't know yet my thoughts on that fully - is it better for kids to do a traditional biology class and retain little to none of it (seriously, can any of us still sketch out the Kreb cycle?) or to be able to identify the plants and wildlife in their local area? Both are knowledge, but we weigh one set of knowledge as more important. Does that mean it is? One is probably more important for going to college, but does that mean it is more important for their adult life? I don't know, I haven't made up my mind. (and they do recommend adding a science lab anyway)

I do know that this week I learned what the Migratory Bird Protection Act is, when and why it came about, and how the current administration has changed the interpretation of it, and that there are lawsuits pending. So did my kids. I think that would be great for a teen to be learning about and discussing. And this morning my kids were exlaiming over a new bird at the feeder, and then the 7 yr old, on his own, was reading about it in our Nat Geo first book of birds, while the 10 yr old looked it up in an index in a field guide. They have never had that kind of crossover into real life with anything else. So despite my misgivings on some of it, we continue on. Because that spark is worth all the rest of it. And I have to wonder if I have an age where that wouldn't be true. 

[ktgrok]

9 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

 

Even if you're reading additional sources outside, the work that she has set up for high school is NOT even close to high school level. Amy curriculum worth their salt is not going to have color a picture and fill in a simple venn diagram as an assignment. 

Also, if you have to add in that much extra work, outsource that much, then she is in no way accomplishing what she says she is: creating a true, all in one, open and go curriculum - so she's charging an exhorbitant price for a product that doesn't deliver. 

As I said, I have no idea if I'd use it with a highschool student. But it certainly had given my younger kids more value at this point than pretty much anything else we've used. The $49 spent, across two kids, so $25 bucks each, had taught us more, and led to more "aha" moments, and deeper understanding across topics, than the things I've spent much more on. Yes, I've also purchased the Burgess Bird Book for a read aloud (could have used the ebook for free) and a few field guides, so that was extra. But we will use the field guides for years and years. The rest was library books and websites - local bird websites, the Cornell website, PBS documentaries, youtube videos, etc. Oh, and a globe and a map we already had, for the geography/mapping sections. To be sure, we've used it for more than the 4-5 weeks it is designed for, and added in some phonics pages for the younger one and grammar for the older one. So more like $25 per month, which includes the two kids. Actually, even my 3 yr old can now identify several birds, and has been learning, and having fun coloring the pictures. AND I've been learning a ton, so really, should count me as one of the students as well. 

Is it perfect? Nope. It the company super professional? Not really, but not sure that's her goal? Is it for most people? Maybe not. But for us, it delivers and then some. And you all know I was here saying the same things you all were when I first found it. ON paper, I get it, it doesn't seem worth it. But in our family, it's been truly priceless. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Ktgrok