pulling out after school has started.

[gardenmom5]

any tips?

dudeling has been engaging in school refusal since last winter, and it has only escalated.  he's now in high school/9th grade. I can get him to do some subjects at home. and he will work independently, not high quality - but he's doing something which is more than he was doing at school.  I tried to get him to go to biology/lab-science at the school, but that's not happening.

it's too late for a coop- if I could even find one.  (I do know the president of one of the local home school groups, but her kids are much younger).

I'm in Washington - and it talks about sept 15, or the semester break, etc.  

I dont' want to bail him out, but I fear what the school wants to do will make things worse.   

(from extensive reading, I believe what is going on with him has been identified by three different entities, with three different names - but basically the same thing.  - pathological demand avoidance by a UK researcher into subgroups in asd. deep in defense mode - by an aspie group.  as I'm reading 'transforming the difficult child' by howard glass - very intense, highly sensitive, high energy, empathic, etc..   they all agree "normal/conventional" methods not only don't work - they can make things worse.  the researcher didn't give many ideas, but the other two are pretty much in agreement - until they stop being defensive, progress won't be made.  both have suggestions on how to get them to lower defenses and come out of their shells.

any wisdom?

[chiguirre]

If he's refusing to go to school and he's enrolled, I think you have to pull him out to avoid truancy issues. The legal concerns have to come first.

What sort of high school program does he need? Is he going to be able to hold a regular job as an adult? Will he need job coaching? Sheltered employment? Or will he need an adult day program? That answer will determine how important it is to get him through a typical high school schedule and what type of of paper trail you're going to need to qualify for services as an adult.

Hugs. The hardest place to be on the spectrum is not ID, but without the social skills and sensory ability to hold down a job. That's the hardest row to hoe by far.

 

[Storygirl]

I would have a very hard time homeschooling my teen with ASD, so I would try very hard to work out something with the school before pulling out. Does he have an IEP, and are all accommodations being provided? Does the IEP need to be changed? Is he refusing, because the work seems too hard and needs to be modified for him? Are the teachers supportive, or have they given up on him? Is the guidance counselor engaged with the situation?

You don't have to answer these things in this thread. They are just things that I would be considering.

My son does cooperate better at school than at home, though. He has had some trouble this year with refusing to do some schoolwork for teachers. In his case, it has only been with retaking quizzes/tests that he failed or redoing low scoring assignments; he is compliant about doing the work the first time. So our situation is different, but we have been having A LOT of interaction with the school this fall over related issues.

if you pull him, I think you need to be certain that you will be able to get him to do his work through the remainder of high school; that would be a problem here. Can he do online public school (K-12 or similar), so that he has structure and outside accountability and connection with teachers, and so that putting him back in school would remain an open possibility?

[Farrar]

I rarely recommend things like this, but would he do well with something basic and box checking like Acelus? Or would that be a turn off - just more pointless schoolwork?

I agree with the above - if he's not showing up and/or failing everything, the best course is probably to pull him. But what are his feelings on this? If it will make him angry, it might not actually be the best course. Is there a currency you can use to help him stay engaged? There are a lot of variables here.

[Pen]

Having been alerted to that book by you and also now reading, I wonder if you should hold off on deciding until you have had a chance to implement its ideas longer?

Or pull him and implement with the idea that he could start over in 9th next year if he’s doing better?

It seems like it anticipates a getting worse before getting better.

I am having my own concerns as I try to give energized positive feedback to pulling a 9% grade up to a 52%.  Because I am having concerns that 52% is still an F.  But it did represent a lot of work turned in.  

Maybe check rules for your area, like when you could pull him without grades being permanent if possible.  

Anychance of getting school on board with Nurtured Heart approach?

What are they wanting to do that will undermine its approach?

 

[Terabith]

I just pulled my 15 year old from school because of school refusal, although her situation is a bit different in that she was excelling (all A's first quarter) but had developed misaphonia and the sounds of school were giving her constant panic attacks.  Mental health is an issue.  I'm not thrilled about it, because I had just started a job, and I'm concerned that it could lead to agoraphobia.  But, the school was completely unwilling to work with us, despite the all A's and maxing out state tests.  So didn't feel like we had any other options.  So far we're doing Derek Owens Precalculus, reading some world literature (currently Dante's Inferno) and discussing it, Spanish with a tutor, and watching a Great Courses lecture on cultural geography.  She's taking art lessons and aikido, too.  The plan is to take geology and college writing at the community college next semester.  Also looking for a community drama class.  

[Pen]

If he’s not already on the older side for 9th, maybe declare this another 8th grade year with focus on emotions and skills around showing up and getting things done ?  Or an 8-9 gap year?

Do regular truancy rules apply for IEP kids? 

[Pen]

@gardenmom5 what has been happening?

I’m with ds at a last weekend to finish assignments  before grades are given in brick and mortar school.  He has 2 F’s.  I am finding it really hard to apply Nurtured Heart Approach! 

Like, should I admire how well he can concentrate on cellphone screen? 

 

[gardenmom5]

50 minutes ago, Pen said:

@gardenmom5 what has been happening?

I’m with ds at a last weekend to finish assignments  before grades are given in brick and mortar school.  He has 2 F’s.  I am finding it really hard to apply Nurtured Heart Approach! 

Like, should I admire how well he can concentrate on cellphone screen? 

 

I've got him doing three subjects for me - khan academy, SotW, WWS.  quality is poor, but he is, mostly, willingly working (which I consider more important at this point.)

he refuses to go to the school for biology.  the homeschool coop does have a biology class for this age, I really doubt he'll do it.  But I can take him in to visit.  (khan academy has a high school biology class - and an AP class.  can't imagine how that would work - but it's an option too.)

I asked about how withdrawing him would affect his IEP should he ever come back  (even if it's just for lab science - I really dont' want to teach lab science), so, we have a meeting on Tuesday morning when someone from the district can be there.  meetings were moved, and combined, etc.  He's considered truant by the school district - but I have been in contact with his caseworker and school social worker.    we'll also be discussing what options the district can provide.  they are talking about an optional online if it means their timetable too.  I'm willing to let him take longer.   

I asked last year about allowing him to repeat 8th grade, but they're very against it.  considering how much he missed last year - I should have grounds for that, even through the district.

so, right now - we're in the middle of things.

[Pen]

 

10 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I asked last year about allowing him to repeat 8th grade, but they're very against it.  considering how much he missed last year - I should have grounds for that, even through the district.

so, right now - we're in the middle of things.

 

If he missed a lot of 8th, that seems it could be more reason to do over though?  Is he able to do the content aspect of 9th?  

What he is doing at home sounds good.  

I think a Nurtured Heart Approach thread might be useful, but not sure where.  Learning Challenges?   Supporting parents of  Teen and Adult since application to older kids seems very different than to 5 year olds?

[gardenmom5]

On 10/29/2019 at 5:25 AM, chiguirre said:

If he's refusing to go to school and he's enrolled, I think you have to pull him out to avoid truancy issues. The legal concerns have to come first.

What sort of high school program does he need? Is he going to be able to hold a regular job as an adult? Will he need job coaching? Sheltered employment? Or will he need an adult day program? That answer will determine how important it is to get him through a typical high school schedule and what type of of paper trail you're going to need to qualify for services as an adult.

Hugs. The hardest place to be on the spectrum is not ID, but without the social skills and sensory ability to hold down a job. That's the hardest row to hoe by far.

 

because he has an IPE, and I've been in regular contact, they're more likely to continue trying to work with him  (meeting on tuesday) rather than turning him over to a court.  at least that was what the principle at the middle school said (which is where school refusal started. - they wanted to "punish" him by not allowing him on the 8th grade class party.  they really didn't get it.  yeah, throw him in the briar patch.)

I believe he will be able to function - but not until we get him out of defense mode, which is common for aspies.

On 10/29/2019 at 6:08 AM, Storygirl said:

I would have a very hard time homeschooling my teen with ASD, so I would try very hard to work out something with the school before pulling out. Does he have an IEP, and are all accommodations being provided? Does the IEP need to be changed? Is he refusing, because the work seems too hard and needs to be modified for him? Are the teachers supportive, or have they given up on him? Is the guidance counselor engaged with the situation?

You don't have to answer these things in this thread. They are just things that I would be considering.

My son does cooperate better at school than at home, though. He has had some trouble this year with refusing to do some schoolwork for teachers. In his case, it has only been with retaking quizzes/tests that he failed or redoing low scoring assignments; he is compliant about doing the work the first time. So our situation is different, but we have been having A LOT of interaction with the school this fall over related issues.

if you pull him, I think you need to be certain that you will be able to get him to do his work through the remainder of high school; that would be a problem here. Can he do online public school (K-12 or similar), so that he has structure and outside accountability and connection with teachers, and so that putting him back in school would remain an open possibility?

He has an IEP, I'm trying to work with the school.  different teachers are better at following it than others.  but his case worker at the middle school was wonderful.  He doesn't like his case worker this year.  I've no idea about how good she is, or isn't.  his liking/not-liking someone doesn't mean much of anything other than his preferences.

I started last school year to find out what options are, at that time they wanted to keep him in a regular program (cheaper for them.)  that was when they should have assigned him his own para - but cheaper to just use one of the circulating paras.  now, it's much harder.

I'm hearing noise about online school from them, I'm concerned it will just be moving the problems to where I have to deal with their schedule.

On 10/29/2019 at 6:44 PM, Farrar said:

I rarely recommend things like this, but would he do well with something basic and box checking like Acelus? Or would that be a turn off - just more pointless schoolwork?

I agree with the above - if he's not showing up and/or failing everything, the best course is probably to pull him. But what are his feelings on this? If it will make him angry, it might not actually be the best course. Is there a currency you can use to help him stay engaged? There are a lot of variables here.

they are talking acellus - I think.  I'm not sure he would use it. tbh: I'm skeptical he would use it.  they tried to do a human interaction assessment last year, and he was as uncooperative as he could be.  he's generally uncooperative with any sort of assessment.  he considers them an invasion of his privacy, and none of their business.

the idea of pulling him and homeschooling has him jumping for joy - but I'm concerned all he is hearing is "being pulled" - not the "you still have to do schoolwork."

there is no currency anyone has found to help him stay engaged.  computer is the only leverage that does anything. - (ds said I could use his laptop for home if needed.  he can't play games on that.)  he prefers screens, and as asked for digital versions of SotW, and WWS.  (I prefer reading on screen - because I can change the font size.)

On 10/30/2019 at 12:34 PM, Pen said:

Having been alerted to that book by you and also now reading, I wonder if you should hold off on deciding until you have had a chance to implement its ideas longer?

Or pull him and implement with the idea that he could start over in 9th next year if he’s doing better?

It seems like it anticipates a getting worse before getting better.

I am having my own concerns as I try to give energized positive feedback to pulling a 9% grade up to a 52%.  Because I am having concerns that 52% is still an F.  But it did represent a lot of work turned in.  

Maybe check rules for your area, like when you could pull him without grades being permanent if possible.  

Anychance of getting school on board with Nurtured Heart approach?

What are they wanting to do that will undermine its approach?

 

I feel the same way - see if I can implement the ideas, and he will come out of his shell.   

I have no clue if I could get them onboard with the nurtured heart approach - I brought the book up with the caseworker and social worker - neither have heard of it.  I do think it would help once he was back in school, but I've got work to do with him before he will even go.  

they do have the, justified, ,attitude that each teacher has 30 students (per class) and they dont' have the time he need.  yeah, duh - which is why he should have been assigned a para to help him years ago.  in elementary, there was a disabled boy in his classroom who had a para strictly for physical things (mostly getting around the school, not so much within the classroom) - so she was free to help him during class.

On 10/30/2019 at 1:16 PM, Pen said:

If he’s not already on the older side for 9th, maybe declare this another 8th grade year with focus on emotions and skills around showing up and getting things done ?  Or an 8-9 gap year?

Do regular truancy rules apply for IEP kids? 

his birthday is in January.  he's not truant for "normal" truancy reasons, so they're more willing to work.

I know that if I can get him working independently, (which I think is completely possible.), and get him up to "speed"/level - he can go to the CC for classes.  It may not be until after he turns 21, but I believe it is possible.

he also had learning disabilities, with a complete mental block that just made things really difficult, so he kept falling further and further behind, which made things more difficult.

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

If he missed a lot of 8th, that seems it could be more reason to do over though?  Is he able to do the content aspect of 9th?  

What he is doing at home sounds good.  

I think a Nurtured Heart Approach thread might be useful, but not sure where.  Learning Challenges?   Supporting parents of  Teen and Adult since application to older kids seems very different than to 5 year olds?

he did terribly the first half of 8th grade (no surprise, he's never been good about doing school work. it was me sitting there walking him through every single assignment while trying to drag him like a lump.) - then they said "time to register for 9th".  he walked out of that class.  then started "I'm too sick to go to school".  when I started calling him on it, he would lock himself in his room.

he had been on antidepressants for anxiety.  he started making "I wish I was dead/everyone's better off without me" statements.  then he said he should stick a knife down his throat - so school refusal stopped being in the forefront for me.  I took him off the antidepressants.  (I kept leaving messages for his neurologist, and she never called me back.  so, I dropped her.)  and that's been resolved.  (so yeah, antidepressants can make teens suicidal.)  and he was on a fairly low dose.  I was calling trying to get him in with a counselor, - he'd had an appointment, and the dr. cancelled it.  they rescheduled it out several months later, after I'd already had to wait a couple months to get him in!  so, I had to call back and get him in "right now".  at least they were able to link me with someone who could do that.

and he started just walking off the school campus.  got through to him he can't do that - so he'd go hide somewhere on the school campus.  Had the SRO come out and do a "welfare" check on him one day after he walked off (the self-harm threat provokes that type of response until you have a mental health professional stating they're not a risk.)

a lot of the professionals have, figuratively, thrown up their own hands in frustration, and some just pass the buck. I had one child psychiatrist basically tell me I needed to change how I parented him. (and that he had more important things to do.) - his suggestions weren't worth squat.  he was advocating an increase in "typical/conventional" methods. - according to TTDC/nurtured heart - that's the worst thing you can do.  IME: that's the worst thing you can do with him.

[Pen]

I have irl personal knowledge of at least 2 teens who committed siluicide while on antidepressants.  

[Pen]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

he did terribly the first half of 8th grade (no surprise, he's never been good about doing school work. it was me sitting there walking him through every single assignment while trying to drag him like a lump.) - then they said "time to register for 9th".  he walked out of that class.  then started "I'm too sick to go to school".  when I started calling him on it, he would lock himself in his room.

 

Registration for 9th started the school refusal? 

It seems like he’s not ready for 9th by his behavior.

And maybe needs a non typical academics type program.  

Have you any sense of types of work he might be able to do?  

 

....

 

 

the worry about depression and feeling like my son  needed someone “right now” was part of how we ended up with the poor therapist a couple of years ago such that now my son doesn’t want to go to any therapist. Ever. Again. 

Quote

and he started just walking off the school campus.  got through to him he can't do that - so he'd go hide somewhere on the school campus.  Had the SRO come out and do a "welfare" check on him one day after he walked off (the self-harm threat provokes that type of response until you have a mental health professional stating they're not a risk.)

 

It is sure hard irl not to have negative acting out behaviors result in lots of attention!

Quote

a lot of the professionals have, figuratively, thrown up their own hands in frustration, and some just pass the buck. I had one child psychiatrist basically tell me I needed to change how I parented him. (and that he had more important things to do.) - his suggestions weren't worth squat.  he was advocating an increase in "typical/conventional" methods. - according to TTDC/nurtured heart - that's the worst thing you can do.  IME: that's the worst thing you can do with him.

 

I also don’t find the typical conventional methods work.  Or they “work” a little short term, but with longer term worse results 

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Pen said:

I have irl personal knowledge of at least 2 teens who committed siluicide while on antidepressants.  

I'm sorry.

It's why I won't put him back on antidepressants.  He was on them for anxiety with the suicidal ideation started.  when I took him off, the SI stopped too.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm sorry.

It's why I won't put him back on antidepressants.  He was on them for anxiety with the suicidal ideation started.  when I took him off, the SI stopped too.

 

I’m glad you took him off!