floundering with Algebra 2 (long, but please help me...)

[sbgrace]

I purchased Pearson Algebra 2 for my son (sophomore/my sig line is old).  

What's going well Pearson, in chapter 2: I think he's learning. I like the book structure/organization. There are plenty of practice problems.  It seems challenging.

What's not going well: I am having to do an awful lot of work to teach this. I often have to find extra explanations to make sure I understand what the book is teaching or to make it clearer for my son. Sometimes I have to find resources to back work and figure out how they got an answer.  We're in harder/new material now and he's, for the first time, feeling "not good" at math. I'm having to reteach a lot. 

example of issue, and a big frustration:The book has a lot of graphing calculator work, but  it has general instruction, not specific. So they may tell us to perform a line regression to find line of best fit using our calculator. Then they show us a picture of what that might look like when finished on a calculator. I have to translate that to our (TI83, so standard) calculator to teach him to use it. I find videos and learn it, then try to teach it. We go through the video together for example, then we have to then apply that to the book work. It's new to me too, and this is taking me a lot of time. 

The book suggests for/regular/average students doing 50-70 homework problems a day, depending on the lesson. That's in addition to in class/practice work. Math is taking way too long. Recently I cut about 1/3 of that out. It's still taking us forever.

Lessons themselves are going really long, then add homework. Hours. Too many hours. We're way out of balance.  (example: today total time he spent on math was probably 3 hours), and I haven't checked the 2nd half of the homework yet. 

I purchased Saxon Algebra 2 (the stand alone/newer version without a mix of heavy geometry). We switched back to Pearson about 1/2 way through the first chapter. 

What I liked: less problems/faster lessons. The calculator instruction was extremely clear. Much, much better. We only did 1/2 of the first chapter, so I can't tell whether I would have to do a  lot of extra planning, but their solutions manual seemed to have things explained well. I don't think I would have such problems trying to figure out where he went wrong. My son liked the practicality of Saxon.

Why we switched back to Pearson: I started to get concerned there wasn't going to be enough practice with new material when we got to that point. There just aren't a lot of problems per lesson over new material given they blend in so much review. To add to my concern, someone told me her daughter had to switch out of the same Saxon book because she wasn't mastering the material. I didn't want that to happen to us.

It felt very "isolated pieces" in terms of instruction. I preferred the "one topic/area per chapter with review" style of Pearson. I looked and couldn't even find topics that Pearson was covering in chapter 2. I assume it's a complete course. I just felt like I was seeing trees and no forest. I don't like that as a teacher, but could have dealt with it.

However, my son was missing too many/struggling with homework. I think this was because the homework was spiraling review that wasn't really review for him, given we hadn't used Saxon before. It felt like things should be easy and they weren't. 

But Pearson is getting harder and longer and more frustrating. My son wants to go back to Saxon. I'm afraid we'll roadblock there too. We've already wasted a lot of time. 

I find myself thinking I should try another program, but I've already spent a lot of money on this course by purchasing two full programs and wasted time switching back and forth. If I by another program, I'm into the kind of money I could have spent to just enroll him in an online course, something i felt was out of budget when planning. (I already have to buy Math U See for my other son, more about that below). 

Adding to the issue and my worries. My other son is finishing up Geometry. I need to teach him Algebra 2 as well. He has special needs that make focus hard. I do not think he could tolerate either Saxon or Pearson. So, I'm thinking I'll need to use Math U See for him, which he's currently using for Geometry.

The thought of spending hours with Algebra 2 with son 1 and then more time with son 2....I'm not sure how we're going to do that. 

I thought maybe I should put son 1 in Math U See as well--(another switch...more time wasting). If I did that, I'd  be planning just one Alg 2 program, though teaching it in two different tracks/paces. I'm imagining Math U See lessons won't take hours.

But I suspect this son  (the currently spending hours in Pearson Alg 2 son's) career choices might require college calculus. He tends to want to take the easiest way out. I have to work hard to get him to mentally engage/struggle. I don't want to under-challenge him, though I'm sure he'd be thrilled if I did. Maybe I could add something to Math U See? Life of Fred (more $$), pull in some Pearson (more work for me). 

Please advise me. I'm failing my kid. I want to add, I don't at all mind teaching and being involved in the learning. I want to do that actually. Hours planning even...I'm willing to do it.  I just can't have him spending hours a day on one course. 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by sbgrace

[Farrar]

My first thought... can you use Saxon for the main program then use Pearson for a few challenging problems once a week and for extra practice if he actually seems to need it?

Harder is not necessarily better. That’s something I feel like I need to remind myself a lot. The “easy” program could just be a better fit.

[TracyP]

I would go back to Saxon. Your concerns with Saxon fall into the "what if" category. Some kids struggle with Saxon, some kids thrive with it. This is true of every program. It sounds like it was working - I'd go back to it.

[Lecka]

Were you using a Common Core math program before?  

What is covered in Algebra I is different, and then Algebra II starts later in content, sometimes, with Common Core.  

If he is new to using a curriculum aligned to Common Core, you might go back a bit, or switch back to a curriculum that isn't Common Core.  

You might be able to look at what topics you have and haven't covered and go back to those chapters.  

I think that might be why there was review in the Saxon Algebra II book that he didn't know how to do.

I think you might have this issue with both if they are both Common Core -- and I think the Saxon Algebra II is, and the Pearson probably is too if it is a newer edition.  

 

[Lecka]

My kids are in Common Core math in public school, and my oldest covered about half of the content that I took in 8th grade Algebra I, in regular 8th grade math, and then his Algebra I this year started with review but it started farther along into Algebra than where I started when I took 8th grade Algebra I.  I think probably about 1/3 into my 8th grade Algebra, is where his Algebra I is starting.

Then my understanding is they cover into what was "my" Algebra II, but during Algebra I, and then Algebra II now covers more than "mine" did.  

  

[Lori D.]

Hire a tutor? Outsource the class?

If those options are not workable, then what about Teaching Textbooks (TT)? Video lessons, and every single problem worked out for you on the videos. I would encourage you to back up and start at the beginning of the TT program so that DS can have some good success (since he will know many of the early chapter topics) WHILE he is getting used to the new perspective/teaching method.

Or, since you need to get MUS for younger DS, what about going ahead and getting it now, and run through that for the rest of the year with older DS as an Alg. 2 "warm-up", and then next year go through Saxon Algebra 2. That gives you the teaching videos to help you as well.

I urge you not to feel as though you must "rush" to finish Algebra 2 this year. It will be okay! If it takes backing up, or switching again, and ultimately takes 1.5 - 2 years to do Algebra 2, you still have plenty of time for that! Older DS is 10th grade, so even if it takes all the way through 11th grade to complete Alg. 2, you still have 12th grade to complete a 4th math credit (and one that is a higher-than-Alg. 2 credit, which is what a lot of colleges look for in their admission requirements).

[sbgrace]

I so appreciate the thoughts here--thank you.

He used CLE from 5th grade through Algebra I. I mixed in Jacob's pre-alg and algebra 1 with CLE.  I really think his algebra 1 instruction was solid. But, generally, he needs review to retain. This is true in all subjects. That's why CLE worked so well probably.

He used Teaching Textbooks for geometry last year. I was minimally involved in that (his 2nd chance or whatever was turned off and I regularly logged in to check his grades to monitor progress). His retention has been poor. I don't want to repeat that in Algebra 2.

I don't think it's a common core issue, but I guess it's possible. I think there were two issues with Saxon's spiral/review. He didn't retain his geometry well. Also, Saxon instructions were sometimes confusing to him (to me too), maybe because we hadn't used it before. He was also bumpy with transitioning back to book/paper from teaching textbooks geometry I think--writing down steps and working carefully. That last issue is probably resolved at this point. The second issue, I'm not sure. The first is a concern I can't easily fix.

I don't feel like I can afford to outsource at this point. If I could rewind time, I would have done that from the start. It just felt too expensive, given I was teaching two. I thought, at the time of purchase, I would use the Pearson with both kids. 

I think I'm leaning toward flipping back to Saxon OR switching to Math U See and trying to supplement its instruction with some more challenging work. I like a lot about Pearson, but we can't spend this much time. 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by sbgrace

[8filltheheart]

I would go with something like DO so that you have a teacher explaining concepts.

[mlktwins]

VideoText Algebra?  Mine are doing the on-line version.  They are in 9th and are on Unit 6.  Unit 5 is where Algebra 2 starts.  It is $299 for 3 years of access for 2 students.  It is video-based, has problems, lesson quizzes, unit tests, and there are cumulative tests if needed/wanted.  We haven't had to contact them for help very often, but when we do, we always get a call back from a live person and he will walk them through whatever they are having issues with.  We love the program and will be doing their Geometry when we are done with Algebra.  They will also have a .5 credit of Trig/Pre-Calc after completing Algebra and the other half credit after completing the Geometry.

The program covers Pre-Alg, Alg 1 and Alg 2 (some overlap in some of the units).  If you use the program, you could have him take the lesson quizzes for each unit (or just the unit tests) until he runs into new information and then go from there.

 

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, sbgrace said:

...I don't feel like I can afford to outsource at this point. If I could rewind time, I would have done that from the start. It just felt too expensive...

So sorry this has been such a struggle. I empathize -- finding a math fit for one of our DSs though the years was so tough (not to mention expensive, trying program after program). However, not to be flippant or minimize your thought here, but... I also tend to think about "Can we afford to NOT spend the money?" -- JMO, but I just don't think you can put a $$ price on getting high schoolers solid with math and writing -- the 2 core/crucial subject areas that will allow them to move into college strongly.
 

1 hour ago, sbgrace said:

...I think I'm leaning toward flipping back to Saxon OR switching to Math U See and trying to supplement its instruction with some more challenging work....

Instead, you might try outsourcing to 8FillTheHeart's above suggestion of Derk Owens online classes -- $15 registration and $58/month -- self paced, video lessons, and you can start at any time during the year. The text is included in the cost.

Another option might be Jann Perkins (a WTM board member! 🙂 ) and her My Homeschool Math classes. While the fall semester is closed now, she offers a year-round Algebra 2 "boot camp" class for $40 (28 video lessons) to help students "get back into shape and transition back into Algebra after tackling Geometry.  Common problem areas of Algebra 1 reviewed and conquered are:  linear equations, factoring, algebraic expressions and those pesky word problems." You might try stopping your current Algebra 2, run through the book camp, taking however much time is needed to get solid with those concepts, and then come back to the Saxon, backing up to where you first started having issues, and then moving forward from there. Also -- are you familiar with the Saxon DIVE CDs or live streaming option? Video lessons to help walk you through the textbook.

BEST of luck in finding what works best for solid Math learning this year! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Lori D.

[chiguirre]

5 hours ago, sbgrace said:

The book suggests for/regular/average students doing 50-70 homework problems a day, depending on the lesson. That's in addition to in class/practice work. Math is taking way too long. Recently I cut about 1/3 of that out. It's still taking us forever.

 

Are you sure that's not 50-70 homework problems a week? Dd has always done online classes for homeschoolers for math (WTMA and MPOA) and I'd say that 50-70 problems a week was about the pace for classes that used American high school textbooks. The classes that used AOPS were about half as many problems but each problem took much more time. My dd is currently doing Calc 1 as a DE student and she still is getting about 40-50 problems a week of homework which takes about 6 or 7 hours to do because they tend to be multipart and more complex.

[8filltheheart]

I missed the part about cost in my first reading. DO is $27.50 a month if you grade yourself. (That is the only way I have ever used his classes.) Thinkwell might be another option. I have no experience with alg 2 but 2 of my kids have used it for calculus and have really liked it.

Edited October 19, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart