New Puppy we are considering! Need list to buy and questions! UPDATE !!! SEPT 4, May 3 - PICTURES!!!

[Spy Car]

42 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Bill, thanks.   Yes, that does look familiar.  I pulled up the link.  The pics, ironically, don't show the "outside" of the collar but if my memory is correct it's more of a solid tile  look to which you mention is better because the prongs aren't visible. Right?  Are the prongs long enough for a  lab, really?  I'll definitely consider this one then. 

 

Yes, they neglected to show the outside. here is a better view:

 

One can not see the "teeth" when there are on. I would assume they are good for Labs, but can't be sure. I have a short-haired Vizsla.

I personally am very opposed to "quick release," as they can fail at the worst times. If I had a quick release I'd need a leash with a double locking system (with a clasp on a secure collar).

This model (see pic above) has a standard carabiner type release.  Secure, yet easily undone by a human.

I believe they make a quick release variant. I would never buy one, nor advise anyone else to do so. Plastic quick releases are a "no go" with me. Too risky.

Bill

 

 

 

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

 

Yes, they neglected to show the outside. here is a better view:

 

One can not see the "teeth" when there are on. I would assume they are good for Labs, but can't be sure. I have a short-haired Vizsla.

I personally am very opposed to "quick release," as they can fail at the worst times. If I had a quick release I'd need a leash with a double locking system (with a clasp on a secure collar).

This model (see pic above) has a standard carabiner type release.  Secure, yet easily undone by a human.

I believe they make a quick release variant. I would never buy one, nor advise anyone else to do so. Plastic quick releases are a "no go" with me. Too risky.

Bill

 

 

 

 

The Sprenger prong collar quick release is fabulous—less likely to come apart than the links themselves imo    And I have had it with very big strong dogs. 

I think your collar choice would be fine for op’s Lab.  That said, the Herm Sprenger release I mean is no cheap plastic thing.  It is a stainless steel scissors design that is more firmly shut if something pulls on it than when there’s no pull. 

 

 

“World renowned as the professionals choice , the HERM SPRENGER line of German Steel ROUNDED TIP PINCH martingale design collars. This collar produces an even pressured safe pinch for the most effective corrective dog training collar available. "H" model with the exclusive Herm Sprenger scissor snap is a unique, quick release snap which can be operated using only one hand. it's safe, practical and very easy to use.” 

 

https://henssgenhardware.com/unique-scissor-snap/

“

 

 Their craftsmanship is second to none and is reflected in the higher price of these snaps but the quality is worth the investment.”

 

 

 

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

 

Yes, they neglected to show the outside. here is a better view:

 

One can not see the "teeth" when there are on. I would assume they are good for Labs, but can't be sure. I have a short-haired Vizsla.

I personally am very opposed to "quick release," as they can fail at the worst times. If I had a quick release I'd need a leash with a double locking system (with a clasp on a secure collar).

This model (see pic above) has a standard carabiner type release.  Secure, yet easily undone by a human.

I believe they make a quick release variant. I would never buy one, nor advise anyone else to do so. Plastic quick releases are a "no go" with me. Too risky.

Bill

 

 

 

 

This seems like a solid product Bill and I am planning on ordering one.  How "long" are the teeth.  While I don't want to hurt Shiloh I do need that reinforcement to remind her who's boss! LOL.  

The write up on the Amazon link you sent offered the following as the first feature:   NECK TECH STAINLESS STEEL PRONG COLLAR WITH QUICK RELEASE BUCKLE
 
I don't see a "buckle" but a clasp that is made from metal.  I'm assuming that is the quick release, no?  So, the text in for the item states "quick release buckle"  but it 's not a buckle. I don't know other than what I mentioned previously how they are defining quick release.

 

57 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

The Sprenger prong collar quick release is fabulous—less likely to come apart than the links themselves imo    And I have had it with very big strong dogs. 

I think your collar choice would be fine for op’s Lab.  That said, the Herm Sprenger release I mean is no cheap plastic thing.  It is a stainless steel scissors design that is more firmly shut if something pulls on it than when there’s no pull. 

 

 

“World renowned as the professionals choice , the HERM SPRENGER line of German Steel ROUNDED TIP PINCH martingale design collars. This collar produces an even pressured safe pinch for the most effective corrective dog training collar available. "H" model with the exclusive Herm Sprenger scissor snap is a unique, quick release snap which can be operated using only one hand. it's safe, practical and very easy to use.” 

 

https://henssgenhardware.com/unique-scissor-snap/

“

 

 Their craftsmanship is second to none and is reflected in the higher price of these snaps but the quality is worth the investment.”

 

 

 

I didn't get far with that link.  LOL!  See above, my reply to Bill.  

Is this it?   https://www.ebay.com/c/1031867393

[Pen]

 

5 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Is this it?   https://www.ebay.com/c/1031867393

 

Either it, or a knock off of it!  

It opens by squeezing the flat parts

 

I don’t think the type Bill has is any sort of a quick release at all.  It Looks like a carabiner. 

 

You will probably be fine with either type and to

move on forward with getting one and spending the time working on training rather than deciding between a couple of collar choices either of which should be excellent for you.  

I have a particular fear of collars that won’t release due to having had a dog get a bike part like a kick stand go between his neck and collar and in his panic to get free, twisting was making  it worse—but that would be a rare situation, I am sure. 

[Spy Car]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

The Sprenger prong collar quick release is fabulous—less likely to come apart than the links themselves imo    And I have had it with very big strong dogs. 

I think your collar choice would be fine for op’s Lab.  That said, the Herm Sprenger release I mean is no cheap plastic thing.  It is a stainless steel scissors design that is more firmly shut if something pulls on it than when there’s no pull. 

 

 

“World renowned as the professionals choice , the HERM SPRENGER line of German Steel ROUNDED TIP PINCH martingale design collars. This collar produces an even pressured safe pinch for the most effective corrective dog training collar available. "H" model with the exclusive Herm Sprenger scissor snap is a unique, quick release snap which can be operated using only one hand. it's safe, practical and very easy to use.” 

 

https://henssgenhardware.com/unique-scissor-snap/

“

 

 Their craftsmanship is second to none and is reflected in the higher price of these snaps but the quality is worth the investment.”

 

 

 

The alternate Neck Tech (with "quick release") does not have the Scissor Snap Hardware that you linked to, rather it has a standard push button release, which I would never trust (even made of metal).

I have horrible memories of a quick release collar coming done at the worst moment. I could have lost a dog in the situation (but did not). I vowed never again.

I've never used one with Scissor Snap Hardware.

He is an "alternate" below. I would not purchace one of these:

Bill

 

 

 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The alternate Neck Tech (with "quick release") does not have the Scissor Snap Hardware that you linked to, rather it has a standard push button release, which I would never trust (even made of metal).

I have horrible memories of a quick release collar coming done at the worst moment. I could have lost a dog in the situation (but did not). I vowed never again.

I've never used one with Scissor Snap Hardware.

He is an "alternate" below. I would not purchace one of these:

Bill

 

 

 

 

Looks like all it would take is an accidental push on that button area...

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

 

This seems like a solid product Bill and I am planning on ordering one.  How "long" are the teeth.  While I don't want to hurt Shiloh I do need that reinforcement to remind her who's boss! LOL.  

The write up on the Amazon link you sent offered the following as the first feature:   NECK TECH STAINLESS STEEL PRONG COLLAR WITH QUICK RELEASE BUCKLE
 
I don't see a "buckle" but a clasp that is made from metal.  I'm assuming that is the quick release, no?  So, the text in for the item states "quick release buckle"  but it 's not a buckle. I don't know other than what I mentioned previously how they are defining quick release.

 

I didn't get far with that link.  LOL!  See above, my reply to Bill.  

Is this it?   https://www.ebay.com/c/1031867393

Length of teeth is either 3/8 of an inch or 1/2 inch depending how you measure. The "actual" length is 3/8. The "effective" length is 1/2 inch (as the teeth do not rest flush with the links).

As I'm trying it out (on me) the teeth are very effective.

The release of the one I linked is a carabiner style release. It is pretty easy to release with intention, but almost impossible to accidently release.

I have not used my training collar in a long time. But it made it easy for my wife to take our Vizsla out when he was younger and less trained (for her). When the collar goes on, his heeling precision becomes a lot sharper. Never have to "use" the collar, IYKWIM?

Never "yank" on these. Let a dog "walk into them." They will self-correct. 

I'd double check price vs Gun Dog Supply. Check out GDS's engraved brass collars. Great supplier. No affiliation.

ETA: Amazon beats GDS by about $15 at the moment for a 24 inch teck tech collar.

Bill

 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

17 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Looks like all it would take is an accidental push on that button area...

Exactly. A disaster in the making. 

Never used the Scissor type releases. Intriguing. The carabiner type release works for me, but I'm open to improvements.

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

42 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The alternate Neck Tech (with "quick release") does not have the Scissor Snap Hardware that you linked to, rather it has a standard push button release, which I would never trust (even made of metal).

I have horrible memories of a quick release collar coming done at the worst moment. I could have lost a dog in the situation (but did not). I vowed never again.

I've never used one with Scissor Snap Hardware.

He is an "alternate" below. I would not purchace one of these:

Bill

 

 

 

I had a quick release collar (plastic hardware) fail with my Rottie mix. It was super scary because there was another dog lunging at her (which is why voice control failed to begin with) plus a car coming right at that moment. Fortunately my “escalated” voice control kicked in and disaster was averted. But now Juliet’s collar has no plastic parts. 

[Spy Car]

26 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I had a quick release collar (plastic hardware) fail with my Rottie mix. It was super scary because there was another dog lunging at her (which is why voice control failed to begin with) plus a car coming right at that moment. Fortunately my “escalated” voice control kicked in and disaster was averted. But now Juliet’s collar has no plastic parts. 

My story is very similar. These things always fail at the worst possible moment.

We were both fortunate to only have good scares as life lessons. I will never trust such collar latches again. 

Glad to know you are safe and well, Jean.  

Bill

[sheryl]

12 hours ago, Spy Car said:

 

Yes, they neglected to show the outside. here is a better view:

 

One can not see the "teeth" when there are on. I would assume they are good for Labs, but can't be sure. I have a short-haired Vizsla.

I personally am very opposed to "quick release," as they can fail at the worst times. If I had a quick release I'd need a leash with a double locking system (with a clasp on a secure collar).

This model (see pic above) has a standard carabiner type release.  Secure, yet easily undone by a human.

I believe they make a quick release variant. I would never buy one, nor advise anyone else to do so. Plastic quick releases are a "no go" with me. Too risky.

Bill

 

 

 

Bill,  I get it.  A prong collar is simply an open design prong collar. The neck tech is a design of "links" that basically hide (stealth) the prongs behind and next to dog.

The "write up/marketing" I think is throwing me off.  Amazon calls the carabiner style quick release but it's not like the plastic buckle.  I found videos on  youtube  supporting NOT to use the quick release plastic buckle.  It's a matter of terminology.  The carabiner is not a quick release "like" the poor design of a plastic buckle but it's a quick release when a person manipulates it to open it.  It's safe and secure as it's unlikely the dog will accidentally open it due to the design which is secure but with "intent" easy for a person to operate.   Is that accurate?

[sheryl]

Bill, question:  the carabiner is used how by a person? It pushing in, correct?  As it was mentioned somewhere a carabiner is the same apparatus used to hold house/car keys?

[sheryl]

Pen, your scissor snap.  You squeeze together. Does the scissor disengage or loosen?

Now after hearing back from you and Bill, I need to decide. 

[sheryl]

And, I posted on our Nextdoor out the "prong" style collars and this was the response.  (I should have known better)

 

"Please invest in a force free trainer rather than an instrument that does harm by creating pain. It will not help you in the long run and may even create more aggressive and/or reactivity. And no, even if you adjust it “correctly” it’s main method is the create pain. Loose leash walking without the use of harmful equipment, ie a correct fitting harness, and the training you and your dog will learn will create a positive walking environment and make for a trusting and working relationship between the dog and it’s handler."

[Mothersweets]

She's beautiful! Glad to hear you are enjoying your new(ish) family member. 😊

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

Bill,  I get it.  A prong collar is simply an open design prong collar. The neck tech is a design of "links" that basically hide (stealth) the prongs behind and next to dog.

The "write up/marketing" I think is throwing me off.  Amazon calls the carabiner style quick release but it's not like the plastic buckle.  I found videos on  youtube  supporting NOT to use the quick release plastic buckle.  It's a matter of terminology.  The carabiner is not a quick release "like" the poor design of a plastic buckle but it's a quick release when a person manipulates it to open it.  It's safe and secure as it's unlikely the dog will accidentally open it due to the design which is secure but with "intent" easy for a person to operate.   Is that accurate?

Your understanding is correct.

The push button "quick release" buckles (especially when plastic) are not trustworthy clasps in my estimation. 

The carabiner style clasp offers a good compromise between a secure connection and one that's easy to remove.

If I had any criticism of the latching system on the Neck Tech that I linked, it is that it can feel a little clumsy going on (especially with a young squirmy dog and lack of experience using one). It comes off easily. They look nice. 

Bill

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

Pen, your scissor snap.  You squeeze together. Does the scissor disengage or loosen?

Now after hearing back from you and Bill, I need to decide. 

 

The scissors snap is squeezed at green marked areas. one reasonably strong and dexterous hand with opposable thumb can do it, allowing other hand to hold dog by a regular collar if need be or keep hold of groceries, purse, child,  or whatever.   The opening is at very end (where marked blue), so it doesn’t require loosening the collar to get it separated (helpful if dog has collar entangled with something or has circled and wrapped his leash around the vet’s legs and exam table and there’s no room to loosen it).  

When there is any pull at blue end, where I marked red also pulls which adds extra force to the scissors mechanism (in opposite direction of green push to open), to keep the blue end jaws even tighter clamped closed.

I have never had an accidental disengagement or loosening, Including with muscular intact male dogs over 100 pounds.    Including in some tricky situations. 

I have started prong collar training gradually in low distraction environments. And I use treat lures to start conditioning them. So they aren’t suddenly surprised by the collar teeth in an overstimulated moment (like rushing toward neighbor).  

95% of the time it isn’t really doing anything but just being there loosely. 4% or so it is getting their attention (along with already understood words like “with me” or “leave it” or “sit” at such point as we were ready for neighbor level distraction).  1% or less it is significantly dealing with adding power to stop them chasing something that hasn’t been trained for yet like a fast noisy motorcycle roaring by, or an unexpected deer or something like that. 

My current dog who is “soft” not only gets the rubber tip end covers, but also has a bungee type leash, so he gets the mildest of pinch possible in the event of something like sudden motorcycle excitement.  The prong collar normally has its tips at back and sides of neck, so nothing actually is touching the dog on the vulnerable throat / trachea area.  

In fact that might have saved life of the dog who got entangled with bike that his important throat parts were not being touched, unlike with a nylon collar that could have strangled him. Also he was luckily well enough trained to sit when told to sit even when panicked by a bike caught on him.   It is one way that even though the big prongs look torturous, I think they actually hold the collar away from critical throat areas to make the prong, when used correctly, an extremely safe training collar. 

 

It’s a great collar (and closure) for functioning.  It doesn’t look anywhere near as nice as Bill’s. 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

Adding, I had one dog who utterly detested prong training  collar.  He liked and would happily pop his head through a standard chain choke collar (what previous owner had used).  I don’t like chain choke collars as much as Sprenger prong, but went with what made the dog happy. 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

And, I posted on our Nextdoor out the "prong" style collars and this was the response.  (I should have known better)

 

"Please invest in a force free trainer rather than an instrument that does harm by creating pain. It will not help you in the long run and may even create more aggressive and/or reactivity. And no, even if you adjust it “correctly” it’s main method is the create pain. Loose leash walking without the use of harmful equipment, ie a correct fitting harness, and the training you and your dog will learn will create a positive walking environment and make for a trusting and working relationship between the dog and it’s handler."

For just this reason, I felt the extra $20 was well spent  

That said, I'm very supportive of positive training methods. The vast majority of my training work was done without a prong collar and much as done off leash.

But having "insurance" (especially when my wife was taking out the dog) was worth it to me. It is an issue of safety when one has a dog that's powerful enough to pull an adult off her feet.

Bill 

[Spy Car]

Pen makes the key point--unlike the once standard, but very dangerous, "choke collars which were once ubiquitous as training collars--the prong style is designed to prevent damage to a dog's trachea.

In the bad old days, it was not uncommon to hear the evidence of damage done to dog's windpipes when they were subject to strong corrections with a choke chain. Many dogs had permanent damage that made them rasp when they breathed. Choke chains are bad news.

Prongs are much more humane. Use them gently. Never tug.

Either style will serve. Mostly an esthetic (and monetary) decision that you will need to make.

Bill

[Pen]

19 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

For just this reason, I felt the extra $20 was well spent  

That said, I'm very supportive of positive training methods. The vast majority of my training work was done without a prong collar and much as done off leash.

But having "insurance" (especially when my wife was taking out the dog) was worth it to me. It is an issue of safety when one has a dog that's powerful enough to pull an adult off her feet.

Bill 

 

Same.  I basically also use positive training methods. And also a lot off leash.  

I should add as a woman with powerful dogs, that they still can pull me off my feet even with a prong collar on.    It doesn’t literally stop that. It’s more a matter of getting their attention when they are very distracted — if say a fast moving object has engaged their prey drive—and then they remember that I am there and they don’t want to pull me off my feet.   But it does actually require a fundamental bond and connection between person and dog in first place. And also some attention on my part—if a dog were to hit leash end hard and fast, especially without bungee to lessen impact,  and took  me unawares rather than braced and using my arms to work the leash correctly, I could still be pulled off my feet.   

Or in other direction it doesn’t compel the dog to do something.  Like my dog did not want to go with vet to be weighed and neither food treat nor prong collar was going to solve that. He didn’t trust her and simply would not do it without me going 9/10 way with them (which we were trying to avoid for CV19 Distancing reasons.) 

[sheryl]

6 hours ago, Pen said:

 

The scissors snap is squeezed at green marked areas. one reasonably strong and dexterous hand with opposable thumb can do it, allowing other hand to hold dog by a regular collar if need be or keep hold of groceries, purse, child,  or whatever.   The opening is at very end (where marked blue), so it doesn’t require loosening the collar to get it separated (helpful if dog has collar entangled with something or has circled and wrapped his leash around the vet’s legs and exam table and there’s no room to loosen it).  

When there is any pull at blue end, where I marked red also pulls which adds extra force to the scissors mechanism (in opposite direction of green push to open), to keep the blue end jaws even tighter clamped closed.

I have never had an accidental disengagement or loosening, Including with muscular intact male dogs over 100 pounds.    Including in some tricky situations. 

I have started prong collar training gradually in low distraction environments. And I use treat lures to start conditioning them. So they aren’t suddenly surprised by the collar teeth in an overstimulated moment (like rushing toward neighbor).  

95% of the time it isn’t really doing anything but just being there loosely. 4% or so it is getting their attention (along with already understood words like “with me” or “leave it” or “sit” at such point as we were ready for neighbor level distraction).  1% or less it is significantly dealing with adding power to stop them chasing something that hasn’t been trained for yet like a fast noisy motorcycle roaring by, or an unexpected deer or something like that. 

My current dog who is “soft” not only gets the rubber tip end covers, but also has a bungee type leash, so he gets the mildest of pinch possible in the event of something like sudden motorcycle excitement.  The prong collar normally has its tips at back and sides of neck, so nothing actually is touching the dog on the vulnerable throat / trachea area.  

In fact that might have saved life of the dog who got entangled with bike that his important throat parts were not being touched, unlike with a nylon collar that could have strangled him. Also he was luckily well enough trained to sit when told to sit even when panicked by a bike caught on him.   It is one way that even though the big prongs look torturous, I think they actually hold the collar away from critical throat areas to make the prong, when used correctly, an extremely safe training collar. 

 

It’s a great collar (and closure) for functioning.  It doesn’t look anywhere near as nice as Bill’s. 

 

 

Pen,  look at your work of art!   LOL!  Really though, great.   If I'm understanding correctly,  you need to release dog, press  in and squeeze green together/inward.  The blue will then open??????

I'm having a hard time understanding red unless it's hinged b/c  how  could green go "in" concurrently while red produces "out"?

[Pen]

51 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Pen,  look at your work of art!   LOL!  Really though, great.   If I'm understanding correctly,  you need to release dog, press  in and squeeze green together/inward.  The blue will then open??????

I'm having a hard time understanding red unless it's hinged b/c  how  could green go "in" concurrently while red produces "out"?

 

Green: opens the jaws at blue point both to put on and take off the collar. 

Red : nothing for you to do—

if dog is pulling forward, the metal pieces at the red marked area  are tight against each other so that it makes the front opening more tight than when there’s no pull.  I think it would be an extra safety if the spring mechanism were ever to fail during a dog bolt toward traffic attempt  — though as I say my prong collar is around two decades old and went through training periods for 3 over 100 pound rescue dogs, and didn’t ever fail.  Now it’s used occasionally for my usually eager to please Lab  mix who is roughly same size range as your Lab😊. 

[Pen]

The red point is sort of like a safety catch on a pair of plant clippers I have.  But nothing to do.  Dog Pull just automatically makes the three metal pieces go tight in a useful way. 

[sheryl]

26 minutes ago, Pen said:

The red point is sort of like a safety catch on a pair of plant clippers I have.  But nothing to do.  Dog Pull just automatically makes the three metal pieces go tight in a useful way. 

I had to research and think more about the 2 different safety mechanisms.  Now I need to order my collar.

Shiloh is 10.5 months (1 year June 17) and 62'ish pounds.  She's not even an adult by age but she is by size.   Because I'm going to buy one I'm assuming buy the larger one and take the links out now.  IF she grows bigger I'll put them back in. ????               

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I had to research and think more about the 2 different safety mechanisms.  Now I need to order my collar.

Shiloh is 10.5 months (1 year June 17) and 62'ish pounds.  She's not even an adult by age but she is by size.   Because I'm going to buy one I'm assuming buy the larger one and take the links out now.  IF she grows bigger I'll put them back in. ????               

 

That’s what I would do, yeah.  

 

[sheryl]

All right folks - experienced dog moms/dads!

Rec for brush for my lab.  Now, Bill or other (?) did you say you advise against the furminator?

The lab sites seem to favor the furminator.  

Thoughts?

[Pawz4me]

The Zoom Groom is awesome.

A Furminator will pull out tons of undercoat. It will also cut the outer coat and damage it. The casual pet owner very likely would never notice the damage. People who pay attention to their pet's coat will be able to tell. Show dog people wouldn't allow a Furminator anywhere near their dogs.

[sheryl]

11 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

The Zoom Groom is awesome.

A Furminator will pull out tons of undercoat. It will also cut the outer coat and damage it. The casual pet owner very likely would never notice the damage. People who pay attention to their pet's coat will be able to tell. Show dog people wouldn't allow a Furminator anywhere near their dogs.

OK, that's what I think someone said on this thread but it's hard to find as it's so long, but that rings a bell.  

The below was taken from a website.   I looked yesterday and 2 other sites recommended brush was the furminator.  

The reasons for regularly brushing your Lab are to help keep them looking nice and neat, to help circulate the natural oils they produce and to shake loose and remove dirt and debris, and to keep their coat and skin healthy.

This is a well-reviewed product, with the most loved features being it’s a sturdy, long-lasting brush, and one that’s comfortable for the owner to hold.

The comfy, anti-slip handle means it’s easy to get out any knots in the coat, and lets you keep a firm grip while you’re removing the dead hair from the undercoat.

 

 

So, grooming is for: releasing natural oils, getting rid of dirt /debris, shedding "some" of undercoat and guard hairs.  Shiny,  healthy coat and ridding of excess hair during the shedding seasons (spring/fall).

 

[Pen]

Suggest you start with a zoom groom.  Your dog should love it, and it may be sufficient. (Just Zoom Groom is sufficient for my current dog.)  

You may need more, but start with Zoom and see.  If it doesn’t work well enough, describe results and get more suggestions here. 

 

Just aesthetically: 

Zoom Groom can leave a recently raked look if fur is long enough so you might also want a simple soft brush or cloth to smooth everything down again at the end. 

 

Extra: 

Mitten hand curries are also nice to use, get a bunch of shedding fur, and dogs tend to like them. 

 I had one dog who enjoyed being vacuumed which was wonderful as loose shedding went direct into vacuum, but mostly my dogs have not even liked being in same room as vacuuming. 

 

 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

All right folks - experienced dog moms/dads!

Rec for brush for my lab.  Now, Bill or other (?) did you say you advise against the furminator?

The lab sites seem to favor the furminator.  

Thoughts?

 

No. No. No. 

Furminators cut the outer "guardian" hair. That is completely unacceptable. Don't do it. They are "efficient," but will savage a dog's coat.

I will defer to others on the advise on the best brush that will pull out undercoat without cutting the outercoat. 

 

Bill

 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

OK, that's what I think someone said on this thread but it's hard to find as it's so long, but that rings a bell.  

The below was taken from a website.   I looked yesterday and 2 other sites recommended brush was the furminator.  

The reasons for regularly brushing your Lab are to help keep them looking nice and neat, to help circulate the natural oils they produce and to shake loose and remove dirt and debris, and to keep their coat and skin healthy.

This is a well-reviewed product, with the most loved features being it’s a sturdy, long-lasting brush, and one that’s comfortable for the owner to hold.

The comfy, anti-slip handle means it’s easy to get out any knots in the coat, and lets you keep a firm grip while you’re removing the dead hair from the undercoat.

 

 

So, grooming is for: releasing natural oils, getting rid of dirt /debris, shedding "some" of undercoat and guard hairs.  Shiny,  healthy coat and ridding of excess hair during the shedding seasons (spring/fall).

 

I don't know what that tool is. It's difficult to tell since the important part isn't really visible, but it looks like a basic slicker brush with a fancier handle. A slicker is a fairly all purpose brush and should work okay for a Lab. You want to be careful, though--some of them are very scratchy. Either get a good quality one (Chris Christensen or Bass are good choices) or if you're picking up something at a pet store try it on your forearm to make sure it isn't horribly scratchy. Some of the less expensive ones are. A Lab isn't likely to have any trouble with knots/tangles. And those are best dealt with using a comb anyway.

Most dogs really like being brushed with a Zoom Groom. It's a massage like feel. You can use one as a shampoo brush, too.

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Suggest you start with a zoom groom.  Your dog should love it, and it may be sufficient. (Just Zoom Groom is sufficient for my current dog.)  

You may need more, but start with Zoom and see.  If it doesn’t work well enough, describe results and get more suggestions here. 

 

Just aesthetically: 

Zoom Groom can leave a recently raked look if fur is long enough so you might also want a simple soft brush or cloth to smooth everything down again at the end. 

 

Extra: 

Mitten hand curries are also nice to use, get a bunch of shedding fur, and dogs tend to like them. 

 I had one dog who enjoyed being vacuumed which was wonderful as loose shedding went direct into vacuum, but mostly my dogs have not even liked being in same room as vacuuming. 

 

 

I think I saw zoom groom as a choice; will check again.  The brush above is 

Slicker Brush For Dogs

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

 

No. No. No. 

Furminators cut the outer "guardian" hair. That is completely unacceptable. Don't do it. They are "efficient," but will savage a dog's coat.

I will defer to others on the advise on the best brush that will pull out undercoat without cutting the outercoat. 

 

Bill

 

 

 

YES, Bill, that's what you, Pawz..., and maybe Pen and Katie said that before I think.  That's what I was trying to remember.   You and Pawz reminded me that the outercoat will be cut.  But, as I type this is it ONLY the undercoat to groom?

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I don't know what that tool is. It's difficult to tell since the important part isn't really visible, but it looks like a basic slicker brush with a fancier handle. A slicker is a fairly all purpose brush and should work okay for a Lab. You want to be careful, though--some of them are very scratchy. Either get a good quality one (Chris Christensen or Bass are good choices) or if you're picking up something at a pet store try it on your forearm to make sure it isn't horribly scratchy. Some of the less expensive ones are. A Lab isn't likely to have any trouble with knots/tangles. And those are best dealt with using a comb anyway.

Most dogs really like being brushed with a Zoom Groom. It's a massage like feel. You can use one as a shampoo brush, too.

Slicker Brush For Dogs

Will check out your recs.  Thanks.  And, also for the tip of testing on my forearm.   Smart!

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

16 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I don't know what that tool is. It's difficult to tell since the important part isn't really visible, but it looks like a basic slicker brush with a fancier handle. A slicker is a fairly all purpose brush and should work okay for a Lab. You want to be careful, though--some of them are very scratchy. Either get a good quality one (Chris Christensen or Bass are good choices) or if you're picking up something at a pet store try it on your forearm to make sure it isn't horribly scratchy. Some of the less expensive ones are. A Lab isn't likely to have any trouble with knots/tangles. And those are best dealt with using a comb anyway.

Most dogs really like being brushed with a Zoom Groom. It's a massage like feel. You can use one as a shampoo brush, too.

I was trying to figure out what a Zoom Groom was so I googled the image.  I have one of those!  Now I know what it's called. . .

[Pen]

My dogs have tended to hate wire slicker brushes.  It is scratchy on skin I think. And can tug on fur.   Zoom is like a massage on skin and the rubbery aspect helps lift out dead fur especially if you use a circular stroke IME. 

I would tend to start with Zoom (or a curry mitten) just to establish good grooming experiences at the beginning.

 

You should also have a good flea comb! 

 

I don’t hate furminator as much as some people (I am not showing), but I don’t think it is a good choice for beginning grooming stage. 

[Pen]

I did not have this exact brand, but this sort of thing and a large dog size Zoom Groom: 

 

HandsOn Pet Grooming Gloves - Patented #1 Ranked, Award Winning Shedding, Bathing, & Hair Remover Gloves - Gentle Brush for Cats, Dogs, and Horses https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QMTWT1J/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2AfTEb6YFSMXE

 

Grooming mitten/glove on one hand, Zoom Groom in other is a good combo IME. 😊

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Pen

[sheryl]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

My dogs have tended to hate wire slicker brushes.  It is scratchy on skin I think. And can tug on fur.   Zoom is like a massage on skin and the rubbery aspect helps lift out dead fur especially if you use a circular stroke IME. 

I would tend to start with Zoom (or a curry mitten) just to establish good grooming experiences at the beginning.

 

You should also have a good flea comb! 

 

I don’t hate furminator as much as some people (I am not showing), but I don’t think it is a good choice for beginning grooming stage. 

 Ok, then. I will plan on a zoom groom. I'm just hesitant because of the dense coat of a lab an d the "teeth" are so big it doesn't seem like it would work, but I'm going to get one.  

Also, I didn't know there were 2 Furminators. ???  A regular one and a  deshedding one.   Is that new?

[sheryl]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

I did not have this exact brand, but this sort of thing and a large dog size Zoom Groom: 

 

HandsOn Pet Grooming Gloves - Patented #1 Ranked, Award Winning Shedding, Bathing, & Hair Remover Gloves - Gentle Brush for Cats, Dogs, and Horses https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QMTWT1J/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2AfTEb6YFSMXE

 

Yes, I saw the glove but not a fan of it.  Will look at zoom groom and hopefully there  is a large one. 🙂

[Pen]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

Yes, I saw the glove but not a fan of it.  Will look at zoom groom and hopefully there  is a large one. 🙂

 

Look for a video to show how to use Zoom Groom to get shedding fur out.  People can use them with German Shedders (GSD😁), Newfoundlands, Great Pyrenees...   and Labs. 

Unfortunately even the Big ones aren’t all that big.  They are sized to fit a hand.  Some do come as 2 packs so you can use both hands at once. 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

 

YES, Bill, that's what you, Pawz..., and maybe Pen and Katie said that before I think.  That's what I was trying to remember.   You and Pawz reminded me that the outercoat will be cut.  But, as I type this is it ONLY the undercoat to groom

Yeah. Especially in hot weather and when you are not planning on going duck hunting anytime soon in the frozen cold, you can thin out the undercoat with a fine wire brush.

This leaves the outer coat alone. That's what you want.

A furminator (very efficiently and very destructively) cuts it all. Really messed up IMO. Quick, but brutal.

Bill

 

 

 

 

[sheryl]

We do not have a fenced in yard.  Training is getting more difficult to train her off leash.  She has gotten bold and run into the street 3 times.  We are tucked away in a neighborhood on a  short cul-de-sac but still don't like this scenario.   She was called and never came.  

Now be gentle here. I'm learning along with my dog but this is unacceptable. 

Advice!  This is starting to weigh on my nerves a bit.

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, sheryl said:

We do not have a fenced in yard.  Training is getting more difficult to train her off leash.  She has gotten bold and run into the street 3 times.  We are tucked away in a neighborhood on a  short cul-de-sac but still don't like this scenario.   She was called and never came.  

Now be gentle here. I'm learning along with my dog but this is unacceptable. 

Advice!  This is starting to weigh on my nerves a bit.

Make sure she gets enough exercise daily.  Enough = lots and lots!!!

Also

lots of training work, multiple times daily, should help tire her mentally 

Keep her on a long line (not long enough to get into street) while you are working with her (training, exercise, just out with you) Such as:

Siumouhoi Dog/Puppy Obedience Recall Training Agility Lead-15 ft 20 ft 30 ft 40 ft 50 ft Long Leash -for Training Leash, Play, Safety, Camping,or Backyard https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H7STZ9R/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_v4lTEbB6QRFGJ

Tie it to something sturdy if you cannot keep hold of it yourself.

 

can you fence your yard?  Or even a part?  Even a temporary fence like plastic mesh for construction area?

 

 

[sheryl]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

Make sure she gets enough exercise daily.  Enough = lots and lots!!!

Also

lots of training work, multiple times daily, should help tire her mentally 

Keep her on a long line (not long enough to get into street) while you are working with her (training, exercise, just out with you) Such as:

Siumouhoi Dog/Puppy Obedience Recall Training Agility Lead-15 ft 20 ft 30 ft 40 ft 50 ft Long Leash -for Training Leash, Play, Safety, Camping,or Backyard https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H7STZ9R/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_v4lTEbB6QRFGJ

Tie it to something sturdy if you cannot keep hold of it yourself.

 

can you fence your yard?  Or even a part?  Even a temporary fence like plastic mesh for construction area?

 

 

Pen, thanks for this.  TBH, she is high energy and I can not spend 16 hours a day playing with  her.   My reason for wanting her to learn off leash obedience at "home" (our property) is so we can come and go and S will follow us.  We go out to get mail, quick trip to the mailbox (she doesn't run off) - she stays with whoever is getting mail, maybe potties and back in.  DH mows the yard (or me) and she's hanging out.  Is this unreasonable? I'm thinking several trips in and out by her tagging along with us in addition to play time  and/or walk time will  work.   But, by all means I'm trying to tire her out by thinking ahead to the day when she can stay home and be off leash.   

Are you talking about a long "lead" to train in yard?

[Scarlett]

39 minutes ago, sheryl said:

We do not have a fenced in yard.  Training is getting more difficult to train her off leash.  She has gotten bold and run into the street 3 times.  We are tucked away in a neighborhood on a  short cul-de-sac but still don't like this scenario.   She was called and never came.  

Now be gentle here. I'm learning along with my dog but this is unacceptable. 

Advice!  This is starting to weigh on my nerves a bit.

We are dropping our pup off at obedience training on Sat.  For up to 15 days.  She is a little nuts. 
 

[Pen]

56 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Pen, thanks for this.  TBH, she is high energy and I can not spend 16 hours a day playing with  her.   My reason for wanting her to learn off leash obedience at "home" (our property) is so we can come and go and S will follow us.  We go out to get mail, quick trip to the mailbox (she doesn't run off) - she stays with whoever is getting mail, maybe potties and back in.  DH mows the yard (or me) and she's hanging out.  Is this unreasonable? I'm thinking several trips in and out by her tagging along with us in addition to play time  and/or walk time will  work.   But, by all means I'm trying to tire her out by thinking ahead to the day when she can stay home and be off leash.   

Are you talking about a long "lead" to train in yard?

 

Long lead to keep Shiloh from engaging in bolting into street. 

 

It sounds like she is not getting anywhere near enough exercise for her age/stage. 

 

ETA: If she gets excellent exercise and training to tire her out  for 3-4 hours per day, she probably won’t seem like she needs to be played with for 16 hours per day.   

 

Can you get a bike attachment so she can get a Chance for a daily good run? 

Or Play fetch till she’s getting tired / or toward tongue spatulation? 

Hire a neighborhood teen/child to run with her? 

For training, @Scarlett ‘s idea of having their dog go for professional training might be good for Shiloh too. 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Pen

[sheryl]

13 hours ago, Scarlett said:

We are dropping our pup off at obedience training on Sat.  For up to 15 days.  She is a little nuts. 
 

How old?

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, sheryl said:

How old?

Just over 5 months.

[sheryl]

12 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Long lead to keep Shiloh from engaging in bolting into street. 

 

It sounds like she is not getting anywhere near enough exercise for her age/stage. 

 

ETA: If she gets excellent exercise and training to tire her out  for 3-4 hours per day, she probably won’t seem like she needs to be played with for 16 hours per day.   

 

Can you get a bike attachment so she can get a Chance for a daily good run? 

Or Play fetch till she’s getting tired / or toward tongue spatulation? 

Hire a neighborhood teen/child to run with her? 

For training, @Scarlett ‘s idea of having their dog go for professional training might be good for Shiloh too. 

 

Correct, she is not getting enough exercise. I don't know if she can get enough.   🙂   It's not in my schedule to walk her or have her play catch for 3-4 hours.  As is typical with labs (Shiloh is our 3rd in 30 years) you work them by throwing ball and they are peak for 10 min before they wane.   This is one of the reasons I'd love for her to learn to be off leash so we can "be" outside with us and roam and yes, we would throw a stick or ball now and then but it wouldn't be constant for 3-4 hours.   I'd thought of the bike attachment and that is probably the   t option.  We love to ride bikes.  Unfortunately I haven't had one in a few years and have been actively looking for one.   I may have to just get one instead of trying to find my "pick".  

Hiring a teen for 3 hours a day at $10-15/hour will be expensive and better served on training.   Professional trainer was the plan with co19 hit.  

Would a 40 foot rope work for training in the front yard?  One end tied to her and the other open-ended but if she is to dart would make it easier to catch/re-teach.  And, the bike option is  excellent. Thanks.

[sheryl]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Just over 5 months.

Well, S needs attention, activity/exercise, training and more (all dogs do) but I'm wondering if she'll settle a bit after she's spayed.  We'll have her go through her first heat which is approaching as she turns 1 year mid-June.  Then in fall or so we'll have her spayed.

[Pen]

Yours may not need as much exercise as ours since ours have been working line types.

But yours needs as much as you can manage to where she’s tired out. Physically from exercise some of the time and mentally from training.

I wasn’t thinking 3-4 hours non stop.  15 minutes multiple times per day for ball and training and maybe once for biking would be good for you as well as her.

Did you ever try out clicker?

 

8 hours ago, sheryl said:

Correct, she is not getting enough exercise. I don't know if she can get enough.   🙂   It's not in my schedule to walk her or have her play catch for 3-4 hours. 

In general no amount of mere walking is enough for a young Lab to be well exercised.  They can walk or trot pretty much all day and not be tired if weather permits.  They need a daily run  (or significant swim or something that really works them). 

 

Quote

As is typical with labs (Shiloh is our 3rd in 30 years) you work them by throwing ball and they are peak for 10 min before they wane. 

Maybe show line Labs?  Idk.

ETA: or maybe you are remembering your dogs when they were older mature dogs? No longer young adults?

Our dogs have more energy than that ... at least if they enjoy ball. Our current dog doesn’t much like ball (sadly for my son), but he likes a good long run. 

 

Quote

 This is one of the reasons I'd love for her to learn to be off leash so we can "be" outside with us and roam

“Roam” ?  Do you live where roaming is still okay for dogs in terms of both safety and law? 

Quote

and yes, we would throw a stick or ball now and then

I don’t know what “now and then” means to you. A roughly 0.75 to 2 yo Lab will need quite a lot of exercise IMO.  Daily. 

 

Quote

but it wouldn't be constant for 3-4 hours.   I'd thought of the bike attachment and that is probably the   t option.  We love to ride bikes.  Unfortunately I haven't had one in a few years and have been actively looking for one.   I may have to just get one instead of trying to find my "pick".  

Great!!!

Then go for bike!  ASAP!!!!  

Never mind if not perfect bike, your dog needs exercise right now.   

I had a “beater” dog exercising bike, which was great because if I had to drop it for some reason, it wasn’t a great special bike in first place. 

Good for your health and hers!!! And a lot less energy expended by you will help tire her.  You can probably just go back and forth in front of your own house if needs be. 

Quote

Hiring a teen for 3 hours a day at $10-15/hour will be expensive and better served on training.   Professional trainer was the plan with co19 hit.  

 

You don’t need a teen for 3 hours per day, just for whatever you cannot do yourself.  Sort of like a tutor for some subject  you aren’t able to teach yourself in homeschool. For Days you can’t give adequate exercise, or to fill in maybe once per day while you do exercise and training twice per day. 

Professional trainer for doggie boarding school training may be working now.   Depends on your state rules, I guess.  But many places animal services are still functioning within safe distance guidelines. 

 

Quote

Would a 40 foot rope work for training in the front yard?  One end tied to her and the other open-ended but if she is to dart would make it easier to catch/re-teach.  And, the bike option is  excellent. Thanks.

 

I don’t know how long a rope or training lead.  It certainly can be a suitable rope, clothesline, etc, rather than a bought lead.  

And that might be best fastened on a harness so that she doesn’t hurt her neck if she gets going and then hits end with force. 

 It depends on how big your front yard is and other such factors. How dangerous your road is...

I’d want to set it up so I was holding it or it was tied to something stable.   Each time she bolts into road she is learning to do that.  

There’s not really catching and re-teaching IMO.  ETA: you are teaching her to do exactly what she is doing.  So, very gently, it is you as trainer error, not her error as dog.   The more time and effort you can put in now (both training and exercise) the more you can have long happy years with her ahead.  

Very important: You need to set her up for success in the first place, not for repeating doing the wrong (and potentially dangerous) thing of bolting into road. 

I’d set it up to work on recall from progressively farther distance, using rope or lead or whatever to help as needed, then when she’s good at that add distracting and enticing things like a still toy, slow car, bike, moving toy, person ... (another situation where hiring local kid to be distraction might be a help).  

If you could do 12 training sessions of 5 minutes each through day, along with a good run and some play time, it would probably help immensely. And a professional trainer to help probably would help a lot too.  

Btw, I would personally not expect spaying to do much other than ensure she does not have puppies.  No more than it would help a human learn how to do math or drive or whatever.  And she will still need exercise.  It is practice and learning of the desired behavior that is needed.  

It is a lot of work!!! But also can be fun!!! And very rewarding!!!!!

Edited May 9, 2020 by Pen