If you had an hour a day for language arts...

[Kanin]

...with two dyslexic 10-year-olds, what would you do? They're reading at about an early-mid 2nd grade level, and one's a bit further on than the other. Even though we're a group of two, I'd like to keep a schedule because otherwise things go sideways.

I get them for an hour a day next year (woo hoo!!!!!!), and they still have the "comprehension" part of ELA in their regular class. So I need to cover decoding, spelling, basic writing, and I'd also like to have them learn keyboarding.

So far I've got:

- LiPS/Wilson (20 minutes), covers decoding/spelling

- Keyboarding (10-15 minutes)

- Writing of some sort (15 minutes)

- Reading with me (10 minutes), separately, while the other does something different

Anything I'm missing that could be great? 🙂

 

 

[Pen]

I’d probably decrease writing to 5-10 minutes- one sentence most days.  

And increase reading.  Using keyboard as a break from reading intensity. Maybe back and forth alternating who is reading with you and who is keyboarding every 10 min or so.  So each would have 30 min keyboarding computerized and 30 min reading with you.  But in 3 10 minute chunks. 

[Kanin]

45 minutes ago, Pen said:

And increase reading.  Using keyboard as a break from reading intensity. Maybe back and forth alternating who is reading with you and who is keyboarding every 10 min or so.  So each would have 30 min keyboarding computerized and 30 min reading with you.  But in 3 10 minute chunks. 

Good idea. I'm planning on using Touch-Type Read and Spell, so that's phonics + keyboarding - that is, unless another keyboarding program is better. 

[Kanin]

46 minutes ago, Pen said:

I’d probably decrease writing to 5-10 minutes- one sentence most days.

Sigh, this is probably what will happen. I was pondering doing 1 sentence in September, 2 in October, 3 in.... maybe.....

[Pen]

29 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Good idea. I'm planning on using Touch-Type Read and Spell, so that's phonics + keyboarding - that is, unless another keyboarding program is better. 

 

We used www.talkingfingers.com.  Also phonics and keyboarding. I can’t compare it since we didn’t used the one you mention. 

[Pen]

29 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Sigh, this is probably what will happen. I was pondering doing 1 sentence in September, 2 in October, 3 in.... maybe.....

 

Sure, they may get faster at it.  One good Kilgallon sort of sentence day after day will add up though.

Makes around a paragraph per week, and a short essay or story every few months.  Which is fine for age 10 w dyslexia imo.

[Lecka]

A game?  I can’t think of one off the top of my head.  

[Pen]

Also I’d structure 1-2 minutes to move and stretch body and distance focus eyes every 10-15 minutes. 

 

[Terabith]

3 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I would probably do 45 - 60 minutes of Wilson or LiPS or another structured phonics program designed for dyslexia.  

Until the phonemic awareness and decoding/encoding comes together it needs to be a top priority.  It’s fine to incorporate some writing or keyboard use within whatever phonics structure you’re using, but I would keep phonics the #1 priority:

Yeah, that would be what I'd do, too.  Or possibly Wilson/ LIPS and a bit of reading aloud.  Although it depends on where you are in Wilson.  If you're book 9 or 10-12, then I'd branch out and do more writing and typing and such.  But if they are not solid readers, that would be my priority.  

[Heathermomster]

My DS was completely toast after 45 minutes of Wilson.

[PeterPan]

On August 15, 2019 at 1:27 PM, Mainer said:

...with two dyslexic 10-year-olds, what would you do? They're reading at about an early-mid 2nd grade level, and one's a bit further on than the other. Even though we're a group of two, I'd like to keep a schedule because otherwise things go sideways.

I get them for an hour a day next year (woo hoo!!!!!!), and they still have the "comprehension" part of ELA in their regular class. So I need to cover decoding, spelling, basic writing, and I'd also like to have them learn keyboarding.

So far I've got:

- LiPS/Wilson (20 minutes), covers decoding/spelling

- Keyboarding (10-15 minutes)

- Writing of some sort (15 minutes)

- Reading with me (10 minutes), separately, while the other does something different

Anything I'm missing that could be great? 🙂

 

 

So I visited a really kick butt OG tutor in town who is also an SLP, and she had a schedule showing the astonishing number of things they'd get done in a session. Like in 1 hour, 15 things. I don't know if it really was 15, but it a serious list, lol. Population is usually ADHD (60% by stats) and the tutor definitely was high energy, so that kind of bang, bang approach was common.

I haven't done Wilson. Does it have components that you could break up into 5 and 10 minute blocks? I'd like to see more wilson, less keyboarding, less writing, and frankly less reading. If you are the only one doing Wilson, then make sure you're doing what only you can do and getting bulk reading practice in the main classroom. I've been reading Book Whisperer and Reading in the Wild so my brain is full on the ways we could be better bringing reading into our classrooms.

Keyboarding should be shorter too. It's not like they won't get that in the classroom. That tutor used the Diana King keyboarding skills book. You cover their hands and call it out army style, haha. My ds couldn't do that, but a more typical dc probably could. But shorter. My ds would devolve if it went over 5, max 10. But really 5 is gobs for him. It's on the young side anyway. Can you get them Talking Fingers and let them do it in the classroom? Then you don't have to do that at all.

Writing is so important. Ok, so just my jab, think about narrative language. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  I've been reading What Struggling Readers Need and he thinks we need to spend more time on writing. But not just random writing, seems to me. (making up stories, random mess) That Diana King Writing Skills stuff is what the tutor uses, but I really think that's outdated or overly prescriptive given our growing understanding of narrative language. It's more natural to teach narrative language and extend it to expository (or switch and use expository to lead to narrative if it fits the kids better). That page has the charts. it's basically WTM but actually with all the steps and pieces and WHY we need to do it. 

Are you doing the writing because they have writing goals in their IEP or as another way to work on reading? Just wondering. If they don't have goals, I'd probably stick to sentence composition using their reading/spelling words, as that would be more functional. 

That Wilson needs all the time you can give it. I think by the time you work it at the phonogram level, word level, word in sentence level, building sentences level, paragraph level, and whole text level, time will be up, lol. The "reading with me" thing is the most vague and maybe least evidence-based. Your Wilson is what's going to bump their reading. You want to hammer that and squeeze in all you can, drilling to fluency.

[Pen]

On 8/15/2019 at 10:27 AM, Mainer said:

LiPS/Wilson (20 minutes), covers decoding/spelling

- Keyboarding (10-15 minutes)

- Writing of some sort (15 minutes)

- Reading with me (10 minutes), separately, while the other does something different

Anything

 

?

maybe

15 min Wilson LIPS

1 min move and stretch

5 min writing

11 min kid 1 on keyboard/phonics program while kid 2 reads from phonics type reader EG Incrementally progressive such as HighNoon type

1 min move and stretch

11 min reverse which kid does phonics/keyboarding program and which has reading with you

finish with more LIPS / Wilson for time left

 

—-

I agree with others that phonics and reading should take precedence, but I’ve seen lots of progress with reading (and LA generally) helped by the phonics/keyboarding type programs. And think that HN type readers were primary in my own Ds dyslexia remediation

I looked at website for the keyboarding program you mention and think it looks excellent to extent I can tell from website 

[Kanin]

On 8/15/2019 at 6:34 PM, CuriousMomof3 said:

Until the phonemic awareness and decoding/encoding comes together it needs to be a top priority.  It’s fine to incorporate some writing or keyboard use within whatever phonics structure you’re using, but I would keep phonics the #1 priority:

Agreed. Wilson has writing sentences, but man... the writing requirements for 3rd, 4th, and 5th graders these days... it's a lot! I need to help them cope with the requirements in the regular classes.

[Kanin]

On 8/15/2019 at 10:03 PM, Terabith said:

If you're book 9 or 10-12, then I'd branch out and do more writing and typing and such. 

More like book 6-7....

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Like in 1 hour, 15 things. I don't know if it really was 15, but it a serious list, lol. Population is usually ADHD (60% by stats) and the tutor definitely was high energy, so that kind of bang, bang approach was common.

Definitely, lots of things need to happen quickly to keep attention. It's like being a magician on stage! 

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I haven't done Wilson. Does it have components that you could break up into 5 and 10 minute blocks? I'd like to see more wilson, less keyboarding, less writing, and frankly less reading.

Yes, definitely, there are a lot of discrete pieces in Wilson. From what I can tell, it's similar to Barton. I think I'll bump keyboarding down, particularly since it can take a few minutes to get computers up and running.

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Are you doing the writing because they have writing goals in their IEP or as another way to work on reading? Just wondering. If they don't have goals, I'd probably stick to sentence composition using their reading/spelling words, as that would be more functional. 

Good question. They have IEP goals for writing. At my school, if they qualify for SpEd and they scored below a certain number on academic testing (WIAT-III), they have to have an IEP goal for it. 

I've got mixed feelings about writing. On the one hand, like you said, it's so important. They also have really heavy writing requirements at my school. Too heavy, for EVERYONE, in my opinion, but oh well. I work with the teachers to modify assignments. Perhaps I'll have certain days to work on writing, not every day. 

[Kanin]

On 8/15/2019 at 4:56 PM, Lecka said:

A game?  I can’t think of one off the top of my head.  

Definitely a game!!! Yes 🙂 

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

That Wilson needs all the time you can give it. I think by the time you work it at the phonogram level, word level, word in sentence level, building sentences level, paragraph level, and whole text level, time will be up, lol. The "reading with me" thing is the most vague and maybe least evidence-based. Your Wilson is what's going to bump their reading. You want to hammer that and squeeze in all you can, drilling to fluency.

I KNOW, time is over before I get to half of what I want to do! HELP!

All right, y'all have convinced me to bump up the Wilson and bump down the other stuff 😄

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

Good question. They have IEP goals for writing. At my school, if they qualify for SpEd and they scored below a certain number on academic testing (WIAT-III), they have to have an IEP goal for it. 

I've got mixed feelings about writing. On the one hand, like you said, it's so important. They also have really heavy writing requirements at my school. Too heavy, for EVERYONE, in my opinion, but oh well. I work with the teachers to modify assignments. Perhaps I'll have certain days to work on writing, not every day. 

                                            What Really Matters for Struggling Readers: Designing Research-Based Programs (3rd Edition) (What Really Matters Series)                                       Here's that book I'm reading. He talks about the importance of writing for reading. I think your plan to work with the teacher to decrease volume to increase intention is solid. Maybe you can get on the same page, where you tell her what you're targeting that group of weeks and that's what she expects in their writing, rather than going for bulk.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/46846209-expository-my-research-cut-and-fold-booklet?_pos=10&_sid=78dbe4a60&_ss=r  Have you seen this? It's from Core of the Core by SGM/MW and I suspect it's the coolest thing in the book. I haven't gotten the whole book, but the thought process is there. Also see their methodology page. What I'm doing with my ds, and what I suspect in general is considered solid intervention using SGM, is I take his narrative language as far as he's ready to go in their developmental sequence (which they give you for FREE on the methodology page) and then I take it right over to the EXPOSITORY using their charts. It's all right there on that page. Free. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology

And maybe the teacher is like no we're working on (name fancy writing structure). But if you run through those stages of narrative development, it becomes obvious where the kids stop and glitch up. And then you transfer over to the expository chart and you realize ok they can't go forward because they actually haven't developed the language to do that. Then you could jab your IEP team and say the SLP ought to be doing narrative language testing and doing the intervention herself. 

Our ps is really annoying like that, trying to call everything writing when actually the issues need SLP goals for narrative language. And narrative language, done well, is the kind of thing where once a week could get you somewhere.

Ok, so if you have them and want to get a little crazy, I'll through out ideas. In that Struggling Readers book he suggests we need MORE TIME READING. He suggests the idea of reading to completion, actually reading an entire book. So you could maybe have a different workshop each day as part of the time. If the dc together could get through an entire book (picture book, something satisfying), then they'd get that experience. And that would be one workshop. With my ds I'm doing writer's workshop this year, and I *think* I'm going to rotate through the big three: word level, sentence level, paragraph level. So three days of writer's workshop, one each day. That's at least my plan. And since you have 5, you could do writer's workshop 3 days, have whole book day one day, and maybe do some I don't know. Poetry, reading comprehension, fluency/reader's theatre, whatever.

I've got some books on fluency that came with cd recordings and I'm planning to work on ds' intonation and fluency in reading. I'm hoping that's like a 5 minute thing. So maybe the other boy could do that (5 minutes reading to repeat the cd for fluency) while you work with the other on paired fluency work. I like both. I'm doing that with Dog Man right now, where he reads a cell, I read a cell, but frankly maybe have the two boys alternate and you just do the big cells when they come up. Dog Man is way cool if it's on their level. That could be a stellar way to end each session. My ds never complains about Dog Man, lol. Not saying it's high literature, but it's really good for him. His BEHAVIOR is so much better with it. I think it's the joint attention honestly. He wakes up happier and more ready to work with me if we read that before bed. It's kind of psycho dramatic to me, like no technical explanation but very noticeable.

So sometimes when kids fall out with reading comprehension, it's their language development past the word level, like clauses, sentence complexity. That's what I mean when I say writer's workshop at the sentence level. We're rolling dice, making sentences, working at the clause level, working on sentence complexity. Barton has exercises where you build sentences from phrases (beginning, middle, end in columns) using only the text that can be generated with what they've worked on up to that point. It's really brilliant. My ds needs more because of his issues, but that's just what I mean by sentence level.

For word level writer's workshop, to me that can be prefixes, suffixes (games, games!!), multiple meanings, activities from Word Callers (love, highly recommend), jokes, etc. 

Are you planning on working on RAN/RAS? If you can make just 5 minutes a day for it, it's sorta (in my mind), the single most important thing you can do. Look at their CTOPP scores and see, but they probably need it. If you need a motion break in the middle, weave some working memory into it. Super simple, can be a game like Memory or just something simple like them repeating commands and doing them. Make it crazy and put clues in easter eggs and hide a prize at the end. Well that's fancier than me, lol. Usually I had a prize at the end that he found when he did the 4th or 5th set of commands. So jump twice, put your head, turn around three times, look under the table, and boom there it is. The important thing is that they REPEAT the instructions aloud. 

I think also at the word level for writer's workshop you can do things like list-making. It's very organizing for the brain. There are tons of cool games, like scattergories, charades. My ds doesn't describe things well and therefore he can't ACT them out either, haha. The disorganization of his brain, where he doesn't realize the parts, the category, the important features, etc. means he can't figure out what to act out and acts out some bizarre side detail. So there charades is actually hitting how his brain organizes for WRITING.

Have you looked at EET? You don't need all of EET and in a way it could be a distraction from more serious narrative language issues. But just as a thought process, it's a start. Verbalizing and Visualizing goes a lot further. And like I said, my ds needed that work to be able to play charades, which means working on charades and I Spy games is actually practicing writing by organizing his brain.

You can have them read non-fiction articles and outline using any level of narrative/expository structures you've taught. So you use the SGM charts, teach the structure, then you begin reading brief texts and looking for those structures. Then they can outline, retell, BOOM they're writing!! That's the whole basis of that swanky pdf I linked btw. You can do it with Let's Read and Find Out, anything simple. Those nifty readers you like work GREAT for it. Step Into.. series, yes? That's what we used this past year to begin doing it.

 

 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Mainer said:

Agreed. Wilson has writing sentences, but man... the writing requirements for 3rd, 4th, and 5th graders these days... it's a lot! I need to help them cope with the requirements in the regular classes.

 

Don’t they have both reading specific help and a general resource room/SPED study hall time for help to work on regular requirements? 

I don’t think one hour is enough to do both. 

Do they have speech to text access?

Edited August 17, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

Can they use the phonics/keyboard program on their own (home or “free” time in school)? 

Can their IEPs be written to limit writing requirements until their reading is remediate better?

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Don’t they have both reading specific help and a general resource room/SPED study hall time for help to work on regular requirements? 

 I don’t think one hour is enough to do both. 

Nope, no study hall until middle school.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Can they use the phonics/keyboard program on their own (home or “free” time in school)? 

Can their IEPs be written to limit writing requirements until their reading is remediate better?

Changing IEPs is a possibility. The teachers are really good about adapting classwork, very open to suggestions 🙂 

Keyboarding could happen at home, but I doubt it would happen with enough regularity to make it stick.

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Can you share the IEP goals you are working on?

The IEP goals are quite simple (to understand... not to accomplish 😛 ); decoding, spelling, and for writing, writing a basic paragraph with graphic organizer support. 

[Kanin]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, so if you have them and want to get a little crazy, I'll through out ideas. In that Struggling Readers book he suggests we need MORE TIME READING. He suggests the idea of reading to completion, actually reading an entire book.

Yes! I agree with this. Even with the hour a day, there isn't enough time spent reading. I'm trying to get some more adult volunteers to just read with the kids as much possible. We have a couple volunteers that do this, and it's great for everyone. Your plan for workshops with your DS sounds great!!

[Kanin]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Are you planning on working on RAN/RAS?

I haven't been, but I could. We do lots with naming/writing things in categories, taking two things and naming the categories, etc. I guess that would technically be a SLP goal, but they need it. Have you heard of Pickles to Penguins? It's a really fun naming/categorizing/describing game that uses picture cards, AND really stretches their language abilities. Could be great for your DS! You could simplify by picking pictures with really obvious links to each other (dog, cat, hamster, all animals!, or, all blue things, or...etc.) and go from there.

I'll have to investigate Mindwings more!!

And yes, I really love those Step Into books. I buy them on eBay because you can't buy them new anywhere!

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Changing IEPs is a possibility. The teachers are really good about adapting classwork, very open to suggestions 🙂 

Keyboarding could happen at home, but I doubt it would happen with enough regularity to make it stick.

 

I think if IEP could specify sentence writing for now that would be helpful.  

Is there anything they can do beyond the one  hour?  I don’t think an hour per day is enough to remediate.  Could in school keyboarding be a daily requirement at a time beyond your hour with them?

Can they take readers home to work on with parents? Or a high school senior who could come to school and get community service hours for helping with more reading? Maybe someone wanting to be a teacher?

[Pen]

For writing a paragraph, you might want to try an organic growth from a single idea start system, rather than typical organization methods.  

So if doing that, the early writing might just be a few words, not necessarily related in any way and not even a sentence.

Just a piece of paper with a few words.  Of interest to them.   Or a few ideas or interests.  Or hobbies.  Anything they might then be able to write more about.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

adapting classwork

I'm reading Seravallo's Writing Strategies finally this weekend, and in chapter 5 she hits what we're talking about. She actually puts it into fabulous charts, showing narrative progression (page 163), opinion progression (164), and informational progress (165). So you'd see where to pick up and target going forward.

It's interesting because I spent the other chapters gulping pretty hard, like the chapter on volume (chapter 2=engagement). I was trying to figure out where our kids fit in that, what the goal is. And some of it was self-talk and attention strategies I think, which maybe occur more in a school setting or aren't where my ds is yet. But the idea of volume is also intriguing in the sense that it gets back to writing as language development, writing as expressive language. 

So I think the sucky thing is if the school is hyper on volume but not cognizant of where the dc is in the progression and development.

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

The IEP goals are quite simple (to understand... not to accomplish 😛 ); decoding, spelling, and for writing, writing a basic paragraph with graphic organizer support. 

Yup, that's where my ds is. So if you look at his IEP, he's labeled gr5, which is absolutely positively utterly absurd. There's no way in the WORLD he can do anything resembling that level of output. It took the SPELT (structured photographic expressive language test) and the TNL (test of narrative language) to get them to admit the language issues and add SLP goals for that. Maybe that's something to fight for? I mean, it sounds like you're doing work the SLP should be doing. Just saying.

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

Have you heard of Pickles to Penguins?

Yup, absolutely. And Word Callers builds on it.                                             Word Callers: Small-Group and One-to-One Interventions for Children Who "Read" but Don't Comprehend (Research-Informed Classroom)                                       My ds was basically a dyslexic hyperlexic, lol. 

So then have you seen this? http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf2/100_vocabulary_primary.pdf

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I'm trying to get some more adult volunteers to just read with the kids as much possible. We have a couple volunteers that do this, and it's great for everyone.

So I'll tell you what I'm doing. I've got the Dog Man reading, which is popcorn where he reads aloud. He has apraxia, remember, so he's going to fatigue and it's just not his utterly most favorite thing to read aloud. I did see him SNEAKING A LOOK at Dog Man a couple days ago, lol. Doing the popcorn/paired reading has built his confidence and stamina, definitely. So think 15-20 minutes, maybe even 30 minutes a day, if you had some blessed saint to do it, is not overkill.

So then the other thing that is really successful for us right now, or at least I think it's successful (no data, just saying), is having me read while he follows along with my finger. We're reading the Deckawoo Drive books from Kate DiCamillo They're beautifully written, hilarious, rather simple syntax. I sweated whether I could get him doing the highlighted read along with tech (kindle, etc.) and he's not ready for that. He doesn't have the take your pick. Attention, comprehension, maturity? Everything. So this works for us. And technically he reads faster than I'm reading aloud, so you can tell sometimes he has read ahead, hehe. But it's very non-threatening. That would be another thing for your angels to do with these boys. 

Those are separate sessions, not back to back. My ds can handle 3 chapters of Dog Man or 2 chapters of Deckawoo Drive books. And he can decode everything we're reading, so this is not instructional level. This is just building stamina, getting hours in. 

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

Your plan for workshops with your DS sounds great!!

Thanks. I know it's not the style or popular to be all public school imitatey, haha, in homeschooling circles, but reality is I'm winging it and doing things in oddball ways anyway. So if I'm being eclectic and working in a tutorial, workshop manner anyway (rather than a pat curriculum with a progression of assignments, which cannot possibly fit him), then I might as well be in the loop on what they're doing. The Seravallo book is in that vein. I'm not jumping on her reading strategies book, because it didn't really call to me. I think we've got a plan and it's working. It's pretty clear that for him actual language comprehension is holding him back more than text strategies at this point. So I'm doing the work the SLP should be doing. I haven't even really found an SLP zealously excited to do what needs to be done, lol. But no matter, I'm wild and I'll figure it out. But it kind of concerns me, because with so many issues it's easy to get distracted. I'm worried I won't get the most important things done, sigh. That's why I'm making up these schemas in my mind. Well that and we've got a LOT of therapies out of the home this school year. I'm essentially losing 2 1/2 days, so I have to be REALLY CAREFUL and prioritize, just like you. Gotta get in and bang it out.

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

writing a basic paragraph with graphic organizer support. 

Ok, so I'll blab on this. I consider my Seravallo ideas to be things that are sort of what would happen in the inclusion classroom. They aren't intervention, aren't thoroughly teaching the basics and filling in those holes. To me they're sort of the richness and because I do have him the whole time, I want to do that. So I think the charts from Seravallo are interesting for you because they connect to what intervention materials and sound research are saying. But when you say to write a paragraph with supports, that's your MW/SG basic stages. They have the charts, they show how it connects, and it's just boom. Like surgery, go in, target it. There are so many genres they do in the main classroom, but to simplify that down and realize from a language development standpoint it's pretty basic, it's helpful. 

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I haven't been, but I could.

Yeah, just squeeze 5 minutes. Nuts, 3 minutes. Seriously. It may be astonishing what it does for them. Maybe it won't be, lol. I'm just saying I SWEAR by it. RAN/RAS is on the CTOPP, they know it's an issue. So you tell me why (removing profanity) every place I read for intervention is like why would we work on it, we can't change it, who cares, blah blah???? Stupidity. They test it because it matters and it's the easiest thing to treat on the planet. Seriously. Like 3 minutes a day every day for a month and you're gonna go wow. And their fluency will improve and they will sprout Snickers bars from their ears. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0  There's the link to my RAN/RAS pages. You can make something yourself to be what you want. Some people will use numbers, sure. I used colored dots because they're what I saw online and because I knew my ds could say the words, lol. I printed, slipped them in page protectors, and then I'd have him read the page 3 ways. So one page, 3 ways, turning it. You can even read it on point, hehe. Don't give props with your fingers but really get their eyes to track and move. And I think with the two boys you could either have them read together OR take turns with each line. Just play with it. After they get easier, try adding in metronome at 54bpm as part of the warm-up. We're still literally just talking 3 minutes here. Now you're engaging the EF part of their brain and they may be a little more chill for you.

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

You could simplify by picking pictures with really obvious links to each other (dog, cat, hamster, all animals!, or, all blue things, or...etc.) and go from there.

I haven't seen EET to see how they extend category/description work to composition, but it's pretty obvious that it does. EET=expanding expression tool. I'm with you though that when you realize what you're needing to do you can make it happen with anything. I've been doing little games with my ds as the next step.                                             What's Yours Like?                                       I picked this up on a sale to try with him. We worked on Telepath this year, and it has picture cards as well as word cards. That really blew his mind and gave him a workout, lol. And reading Seravallo today, I was realizing we could take it further. She has a whole chapter on picture composition that can merge with some of her other ideas about using pictures and memories (pictures, objects) to prompt narratives. 

Ok, so I'll just say this, but I think the narrative stage is extremely prolonged with my ds. I don't think "writing" as a means of communication means much to him developmentally. I think that's where Seravallo, the OT, etc. are onto something. If you look at how he interacts with text, like what text he generates that helps him accomplish something or helps him communicate meaning he wants to communicate, it's still really simple. And we can say "you must write a paragraph" but what if he doesn't yet realize he wants to do that? That's where I thought Servallo's ideas where pretty sharp, with lots of ways to milk narrative. 3.10 and 3.12 for instance we were really good. My ds is obviously behind on a lot of levels (ASD2). 

She puts writing on Facebook, 3.27, as starting in 4th. And it's a theoretical thing, like if you could, what would it look like. But it's just a really good point that much of that functional language is these really basic stages of narrative that need to be nailed.

Edited August 17, 2019 by PeterPan

[Pen]

 

 

Do you know these books?

 

Games for Writing: Playful Ways to Help Your Child Learn to Write https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374524270/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_OHiwDbKT6WSHA

 

 

 

Sentence Composing for Elementary School: A Worktext to Build Better Sentences https://www.amazon.com/dp/0325002231/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_HJiwDbP6C88ZD

 

6 + 1 Traits of Writing: The Complete Guide for the Primary Grades https://www.amazon.com/dp/0439574129/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_GMiwDb05QKNYW

 

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

Games for Writing: Playful Ways to Help Your Child Learn to Write https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374524270/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_OHiwDbKT6WSHA

 

Just as an aside, I have this. Her math games book was brilliant for ds, so we'll see about the writing.

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

Sentence Composing for Elementary School: A Worktext to Build Better Sentences https://www.amazon.com/dp/0325002231/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_HJiwDbP6C88ZD

 

I need to look at this. I have something from back in the day, but I think it may have been the middle school book.

[Pen]

Also,  the Writing Down the Bones sort of approach, adapted to kids, may fit many kids (or adults) with dyslexia:

Writing Down the Bones: Freeing the Writer Within https://www.amazon.com/dp/161180308X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_sBkwDbM2M9F5F

 

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

Also,  the Writing Down the Bones sort of approach, adapted to kids, may fit many kids (or adults) with dyslexia:

Writing Down the Bones: Freeing the Writer Within https://www.amazon.com/dp/161180308X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_sBkwDbM2M9F5F

 

We used that in an honors writing class in college.  It was an amazing class!  

[PeterPan]

43 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Working on keyboarding, or reading aloud to them might be good things, but if the IEP team, including hte parents, has come together and agreed that this time is for decoding, spelling and paragraph writing, then those need to be the focus.

That's an excellent point about keyboarding not being a goal in the IEP. So with my ds' IEP, they were funny. They wanted us to work on it but not make it a goal, and he's rising 5th. I think he's in that range where they'd rather let him randomly peck. But as far as an intervention goal, they didn't want it yet. That may be common. 

LIPS is just the most basic level of phonemic awareness. She can weave it into Wilson and doubtless that's what she is doing. I think that's pretty normal to do something as a pre for Wilson for phonemic awareness, and LIPS is pretty brilliant for that. I wove it all through the first several levels of our Barton because it was ds' most powerful tool. Barton made too many assumptions about his ability to generalize so the more foundational tool had to be carried across.

[Pen]

25 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's an excellent point about keyboarding not being a goal in the IEP.

 

From my POV the keyboarding that OP has chosen, as with Talkingfingers (and perhaps it’s even better?), will strongly support the things the IEP does specify— reading, in particular, and also writing. 

And it is computerized which will allow OP to give some private time to each of the 2 boys .  Unless that is the keyboarding used in the regular  classroom (which would be a good idea), it’s likely that the regular classroom keyboarding won’t be a dyslexia friendly program. Let alone one that will likely actually help to remediate dyslexia.  

Plus, while I thinks far more than an hour per day  is needed, a whole hour on one program without a break to something else is probably too exhausting and becomes less beneficial than multiple shorter sessions.  Too much can even be a negative not just not going as much forward as it could, but causing loss of ground ...

IME 

 

[PeterPan]

Well I think every single person on this thread wants to see her put the MAJORITY of her time into the thing the regular classroom teacher cannot do.

I like Talking Fingers, but it eats up time. It's clunky, loads slowly, and could be done in the regular classroom.

Mainer, do you have access to Lexia? I keep thinking with the hole these kids are in that you need to be pushing intervention into the classroom. I don't know if you're allowed to do that, but in the dream world you could. And expanding the team with SLP. 

[Lecka]

This is several years ago, but my oldest did Lexia at school, and at the time he could hit every answer and just get the right answer that way, so he would just sit and guess and click on answers without having any real engagement with it.

He used to be particularly prone to that.

Now as a rising 9th grader — last year he had some Khan Academy at school and he would get frustrated with inputting the problem wrong or clicking too early or things like that.  Things he’s always been prone to but I thought it had gone away because he is much, much better and appears to me to have no issue with using a computer or mouse. Apparently he still has some issues.

The school had a Lexia subscription like two years and then didn’t keep it.  So — I don’t know.  It does look good from everything online, but — yeah, yet another computer-based program that has not worked out for my son.  

If somebody sits by him and helps him when he’s stuck or if he gets some kind of fatigue-y (maybe) issue where he starts making frustrating and “only because it’s on a computer” mistakes...... and calls him out on guessing!!!!!!..... etc, etc..... it can be good.

But that defeats the purpose a lot of the time.

OP — I think you have a role for writing, but really I think the classroom teacher has more of a role.  Unless you are the person who is supposed to address writing-related IEP goals — and then — well, still you pick your priorities, i think.  

But I don’t think you can do everything in your time, and — I think there is a lot classroom teachers can do for writing... using graphic organizers, oral brainstorming, blah blah.  Do you really know what is going on in the classes? Because — yes, there is an expectation of a lot of writing.  But inside the room I would bet there are quite a few kids where the classroom teacher is dealing with a lower written output.  Because — that is life.  

So I don’t think that’s something for you to fix especially as you question the appropriateness of the goals.

And then — reading will help writing.  You are working on writing by working on reading!!!!!!!  It is just indirect.  But it honestly might be more effective.  

I don’t think you need to replicate what someone who does 1 hour a week in 1 session does, with 5 hours a week spread over 5 sessions. 

You also need these kids to like coming, have a positive attitude, and not be mentally exhausted when they leave you.  If you had them all day you could make sure they had a bit of a mental break afterward, but I’m not sure you can do that, and then — I think it’s too hard on kids to get too worn out.  

With that said — I’m in favor of as much Wilson as possible, but maybe interspersed with games?  What does Wilson say about reading out loud at the level they are at?  If it says “we recommend reading sentences from the curriculum” or whatever I would do that.  It’s better to have a successful experience than be super stumbly.  

If they don’t have any read-alouds — or are missing the class read-aloud because of pull-out — I think that could be a nice reward/break at the end.  

[Lecka]

To me that IEP goal of “write a paragraph with a graphic organizer” sounds like something maybe the classroom teacher is doing.

It does depend just what the situation is..... but I think that could be something done in the regular classroom.

Is that goal definitely one for you?  If not — seriously I would leave it to the teacher.  

The teacher is definitely not doing anything for decoding, but probably has a big focus on writing and using graphic organizers.

Like — that is a big, big thing in classroom writing instruction now, a lot of kids are on that step and not actually doing the “expected writing.”

My daughter actually does the expected writing.... she has an early November birthday and is one of the oldest in her grade.... and from talking to teachers with her and my older son...... it does seem like she is one of a few hitting the writing goals, and he is one of many using a graphic organizer, and like the classroom teacher has got a system down with the graphic organizers.  

[Lecka]

As a parent — it would depend on what regular instruction is being missed, and what the capability is to participate with classroom supports...... but I would not sweat written output or favor writing “over” decoding.  

But I would expect some participating in the brainstorming, organizing, “what is a main idea,” ——— all those things, that can go so well with a graphic organizer.

Anyway — I think maybe see what the teacher is doing for that.  

And then I think for that IEP goal — it could be a “lighter”/break activity if you filled out a graphic organizer together, with you writing and them saying what to write..... or you write he sentence stem and together you come up with the rest of the sentence and then you write it..... if they’re ready for more than that they may just start doing it independently iykwim — from Good scaffolding like this.  Indirect things really do help more than direct things sometimes!  They do build underlying skills.  It is worth it even without having the same kind of product or sense of “well I addressed this thing that seems to be a looming problem.”  Indirect things can still address looming problems.... kids do need to be taught at an appropriate level, it is where they will make the most progress — I do believe this and it’s a good principle to come back to when there’s a feeling of “But the grade-level writing requirements!!!!!!!!”  

[Lecka]

Oh — for the typing... I have just read about it, but that typing program has good reviews for reinforcing dyslexia stuff and being good.

I think it could be useful:

as something a little lighter

as a break

as a reward

as review

as something a little easier they will do good at.

If it’s any of these things (or all of them!) I think it could be good to include.  Is there a usage recommendation?  I would do the minimum usage (3 days a week?) unless they actually liked it and you could use it as a reward or mini-reward, or it did work as a review/break.  

I think you could see from them using it how well it works out, if they get a lot out of it, if it improves your overall work time, etc.

I wouldn’t do it just to do it, I don’t think it’s necessary.

I do think it could be good, though, for sure.  Because you do need them to be motivated to work on some difficult stuff, and not have their brains melt.  

Like — I have had a child in intensive 1-hour speech sessions.  He could not have just gone back to the classroom.  Not realistic.  Not okay.  

At the same time — as much time and intensity as possibly possible on the Wilson is a good goal.  But is that 45-60 minutes?  Maybe it’s 45 minutes.  But ending with something lighter or reward-y I think is really worthwhile.  

And I think everything besides Wilson needs to be lighter, more scaffolded, whatever, so as not to detract from the energy going towards Wilson.  

You also could — just for the sake of comparison — probablu easily come up with 5+ solid sentences from sentence stems, together, expose them to some excellent stuff, but not be too draining.... in the same or less time as getting them to write one sentence.  And with scaffolding and more examples — I think it’s also possible it would help them more.  Maybe later in the year if you are seeing how they do with doing it together and scaffolding, you could move to writing.  I don’t think I would start with that at the beginning of the year, I think I would ease into that, and question what they would get more out of, as well. 

[Lecka]

I do also wonder about using the computer time to do 1:1 and alternate?  I have no idea if that is good or not.  1:2 can take a lot of pressure off kids and provide more examples (as they listen to the other child).  Or 1:1 can have more advantages.  Or maybe you want to do 1:1 3 times a week and the typing lets you?  And it’s not a distraction to the one you’re working with etc.  

In theory maybe it works but I think see how it goes in practice, maybe it works out maybe it doesn’t, maybe you see they need more 1:1 or have benefits from 1:2.

If the two kids get along and both will speak up — 1:2 can be a lot more fun, a little less pressure, etc.  

Or they could be at a little different levels to where you do want to do 1:1, especially if they are getting something out of the typing.

I would want the typing to reinforce the reading remediation — the reviews say it’s the case, you can see if it works out that way.  

But I am skeptical it would be “better” or “equal” to you doing Wilson, but it could still have a positive use for you.  

[Lecka]

Just some ideas:  for sentence building, could silly sentences make it more like a game time?  Could that be like a game/break?

I think there’s a lot of stuff out there for silly sentences or silly pictures?  I don’t know if that’s trending too young.

Or sentences about a personal interest?

If you even did that — I think anything besides Wilson maybe needs to be “going out of your way” to find a way to make to be funner, lighter, more personal, etc.  

And maybe be things that could be 5 minutes long and then back to Wilson, and not be something that could eat up a ton of time (like writing a sentence I think could eat up a ton of time, but with you scaffolding some oral sentences or “we do it together” you could probably keep the time going).  

Also maybe start with stretching or a little movement game?  Something they would think was fun, but also short?  They may have something they like already that is popular at the school.  

Edited August 18, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I also think if other people doing pull-out are doing stickers, stamps, pencils, cheap toys, etc, be on par with them.  

Edit:  for the grade they are in.  

Edited August 18, 2019 by Lecka

[Kanin]

I was thinking of typing as a way to give one kid something to do independently while I worked with the other, since they're not in exactly the same place. I think I'll hold off on that for now, and see how things go without typing. They won't have a typing class in 5th per se, which is one of my beefs... kids are expected to produce typed material, but they don't really get taught how to type before that time. I was concerned about the program loading slowly and losing instructional time, so we'll just have to see how things pan out.

As for LiPS... they still need it. Even though vowel sounds have improved a whole lot over the last year, there are still times when they forget. Plus, like PeterPan said, I do both at the same time. LiPS strategies and tiles with the Wilson words. I'm actually surprised that LMB doesn't make a program that's branded as a phonemic awareness + decoding/spelling program, but maybe they're making the big bucks as it is!

We do have Lexia, but I can't pick the skills the kids work on. It's adaptive, so the computer decides when to move kids on, and to what skill. So the Lexia progression doesn't match the progression of the intervention. It's too bad, because otherwise it would be great. We have Raz-Kids, which I use more. 

I do have to address writing, although they do it in their regular ed class as well. I report on IEP goals three times per year. I can use classwork as evidence, but I need to be actively teaching to the goals as well. Sometimes I use a read-aloud as a way to teach writing... kids answering/reacting to the read aloud. The read-aloud is a nice break between the decoding/spelling work and writing.

See, this is why I asked. I had all these possibilities floating around, and now they've been pared down a lot. We will see how expectations match up to reality in a few weeks!! 🙂 

[Lecka]

You can see how things go, too 🙂. 

My rising 9th grader is signed up for a semester of keyboarding next year.  I think typing is good too, but it may be something available later.  

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I was thinking of typing as a way to give one kid something to do independently while I worked with the other, since they're not in exactly the same place. I think I'll hold off on that for now, and see how things go without typing. They won't have a typing class in 5th per se, which is one of my beefs... kids are expected to produce typed material, but they don't really get taught how to type before that time. I was concerned about the program loading slowly and losing instructional time,

 

Have you tried loading the phonics/typing program to see how long it takes to load?  

If it’s slow, do you have access to enough computers to have it be loading while you’re all doing Wilson/LIPS?  

I don’t know how yours will work, but my son’s had vocal prompts to “type /a/“ or “type /e/“  (the sounds), etc which helped reinforce sounds to letters, and thus phonetic spelling.  

 

How my son’s “1 hour” of IEP help worked: 

We couldn’t load his typing program at all from home, but the school he went to for his homeschooling/PS concurrent IEP had fast enough internet that it loaded with no lag there. 

His concurrent IEP gave half an hour individual 1:1 time to work on handwriting (which didn’t help, but at least told me that a “specialist” wasn’t able to succeed either). 

Then we had an hour (and there was also an 8 min. recess move around or eat time for whole school) usually of me and him in computer lab (split between typing program, khan academy and Coolmath games—  the split was in part because we could not get any of those at home, but also because typing required muscle and finger development and only 5-10 min at a time was effective).  But little bits add up significantly to skill building and stamina building. 

Then he went to a different room and different teachers for 1/2 hour in small group reading (at first MacMillan Treasures, then moving to books like Hank the Cowdog ) usually 2-3 kids —so 10 to 15 minutes each reading aloud, the rest following silently. 

 By time of that IEP he officially qualified for services based on the physical writing difficulties—reading was already at grade level normal via HN, though not yet at his interest level. We got the computer lab and reading time added on.  At home we were still moving ahead with HN, Magic Tree House etc.  

 

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I do have to address writing, although they do it in their regular ed class as well. I report on IEP goals three times per year. I can use classwork as evidence, but I need to be actively teaching to the goals as well. Sometimes I use a read-aloud as a way to teach writing... kids answering/reacting to the read aloud. The read-aloud is a nice break between the decoding/spelling work and writing.

 

Also if they have no model of good reading, only hearing other struggling child readers,  it could be useful to model pacing, tone, etc.   Though an hour is so very short!   It seems like every minute needs to count as much as possible.  

 

[Pen]

 

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

And maybe be things that could be 5 minutes long and then back to Wilson, and not be something that could eat up a ton of time (like writing a sentence I think could eat up a ton of time, but with you scaffolding some oral sentences or “we do it together” you could probably keep the time going).  

 

For my son if “writing a sentence” meant penmanship then it could take a long time.  But if it was a sentence done by using a model and with (at first) me to scribe for him (or later him typing or using speech to text) that was 5 minutes or less.  

It may depend a lot on the type of dyslexia and whether there are other additional LD issues present  .  And my Ds is 2E, so that may also make it different. 

 

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Mainer said:

since they're not in exactly the same place.

So this is just a tidbit, but I think in a way it could be true. Sanseri of SWR (which is your WRTR spinoff which is your OG streamlined) says that kids will take from it and learn at any level. Like if you take a class through an easier list, they're still doing the analysis, still thinking analytically, and their scores go up, even though some of the kids were more advanced and some weren't. And I saw it over and over with my dd, that we'd review easy material, but with that solid thought process, and her scores would LEAP. It's like her brain needed to get back in gear.

So unless we're talking radical differences in reading levels, I'd probably just teach 'em. 

Another thing you could do is set up independent work tasks that are reinforcing your Wilson. I haven't done Wilson, but with Barton I loaded things into Quizlet. Quizlet will generate all kinds of marvelous games that can reinforce spelling and fluency, boom. Or I got some (shhh) tile activities for my ds to do this fall. I need a mixture with him, like low demand things that just work, and it's sort of word ladders with letter tiles instead of writing. So you could make word ladder pages maybe to reinforce your Wilson lesson and have them do that independently.

I don't know, just thinking out loud there. 

Did you work with them last year? They'll have had some loss over the summer, so even if one was more advanced, they'll seem similar at the beginning. Also, advanced is relative. Just kick up with more complex words the simpler Wilson lesson. Add more syllables, bring in prefixes.

There are some prefix/suffix type games meant to go with Barton that are cards. You might find a way to work on more advanced skills like that as independent work. Like just look ahead and make a file folder game or cards and pictures or something. I needed idiot proof things my in-home workers could do with ds, and that's the type of thing I'd give them.

8 hours ago, Mainer said:

Sometimes I use a read-aloud as a way to teach writing

I think merging reading comprehension, narrative language, and writing is really natural. If you're teaching story grammar elements, one a week, and building their retells and extending those skills then to expository, you're there, boom. https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/46846209-expository-my-research-cut-and-fold-booklet?_pos=10&_sid=78dbe4a60&_ss=r  Just wanted to make sure you saw this. It's non-fiction read aloud as information source to narrative structures that build expository text. Snazzy. 

All I keep thinking is how lucky these boys are to have someone who is going to work hard, a full hour every day with them!!! It's going to be stellar.

[Kanin]

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

All I keep thinking is how lucky these boys are to have someone who is going to work hard, a full hour every day with them!!! It's going to be stellar.

Aww. That's so nice. I'll do my darndest! 🙂 

[Kanin]

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I haven't done Wilson, but with Barton I loaded things into Quizlet. Quizlet will generate all kinds of marvelous games that can reinforce spelling and fluency, boom.

Ooh. Great idea! 

 

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

There are some prefix/suffix type games meant to go with Barton that are cards. You might find a way to work on more advanced skills like that as independent work. Like just look ahead and make a file folder game or cards and pictures or something. I needed idiot proof things my in-home workers could do with ds, and that's the type of thing I'd give them.

Oh yeah, prefixes and suffixes are going to happen soon. Will be a nice break from keeping all the vowel combinations straight! They'll also be so excited to read longer words.

 

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Sanseri of SWR (which is your WRTR spinoff which is your OG streamlined) says that kids will take from it and learn at any level. Like if you take a class through an easier list, they're still doing the analysis, still thinking analytically, and their scores go up, even though some of the kids were more advanced and some weren't.

This is a nice reassurance. Thank you for reminding me of this!