Any suggestions for 8th grade Math for a struggling learner?

[Mom28kds]

My child will be in 8th grade, has executive functioning issues and has been at the local public school for the last 2 years. I’m bringing her home for the duration and not sure where to go regarding Math. We did CLE in the past and she said she doesn’t want a computer program. Any ideas for me to look? I’m open to CLE but since I’m starting fresh I wanted to see if there were other programs that might be a better fit. Thanks 😊

[Zoo Keeper]

CLE or Rod & Staff would be my picks.  One of mine who has some LD's with fluid reasoning and working memory does very well with R&S's format of topical chapters that have lots of review of other topics built into the lesson and the oral drill in the Teacher Manuals.  He needs small steps with lots of review, and R&S does that well for him. 

CLE would probably be good for that as well, but I have more experience with R&S (1-8th grade math). 

CLE has a placement test for their math...https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

  Milestone books has a placement test for R&S math...https://www.milestonebooks.com/bin/Placement_Test_Math.pdf

[Mom28kds]

Quote

Thank you so much for the response. It's good to be able to bounce things off of people and I don't know any other homeschoolers other than on this site. Your insight is appreciated 🙂

 

[CAtoVA]

I used CLE Algebra 1 for my just finishing up 9th grade DS who also has Executive Functioning deficits and it has worked very well. It's taken us two years to complete (8th and 9th)  mostly because he had some sickness issues, and I also wanted the foundational Algebra course to be thoroughly comprehended.

For pre-Algebra in 7th we used Saxon 1/2 and that was a good fit too. My DS needs a tight spiral without too many distractions on the page. Both Saxon and CLE fit the bill for that. I can't speak to R & S as I have not used their math programs before.

[Mom28kds]

1 hour ago, Paradox5 said:

R&S or BJU or something else that is mastery, NOT spiral! For kids who struggle, mastery gives them time to have a concept sink in before moving on. I would look into BJU Fundamentals of Math. Just use the text and TMs (and, yes you NEED the TMs!). BJU also has video lessons available on DVD or via internet with a live teacher.

https://www.bjupresshomeschool.com/product/264945

I'll definitely look into this. Thank you. Is it easy to teach as I'm not good in Math. I know CLE teaches to the student and Bob Jones is geared towards a classroom.

[Mom28kds]

2 hours ago, CAtoVA said:

I used CLE Algebra 1 for my just finishing up 9th grade DS who also has Executive Functioning deficits and it has worked very well. It's taken us two years to complete (8th and 9th)  mostly because he had some sickness issues, and I also wanted the foundational Algebra course to be thoroughly comprehended.

For pre-Algebra in 7th we used Saxon 1/2 and that was a good fit too. My DS needs a tight spiral without too many distractions on the page. Both Saxon and CLE fit the bill for that. I can't speak to R & S as I have not used their math programs before.

Thank you! Good to know CLE would still be a good option. 

[Farrar]

I think CLE is probably your best option, but I always like to suggest the Key to Math books for struggling learners and they weren't mentioned. They're very solid.

[CAtoVA]

Totally agree with Farrar—I also used the Key to Algebra series alongside CLE Algebra 1 with my DS. They were great for reinforcement when needed.

As far as mastery vs spriral goes, my DS did okay with mastery programs (Singapore) but experienced much less stress with spiral curricula such as Saxon or CLE. He was more confident solving math problems when he continually reviewed material, and the lowered stress/increased confidence greatly affected his ability to remember math concepts, his motivation to learn math, etc. Just something to consider.

 

[Mom28kds]

10 hours ago, mms said:

Do you know if she is on grade level in math or behind.  What does "struggling" mean?  Does she not grasp some concepts, have trouble with computation, problem solving?  8th grade math is still usually pre-Algebra in most places in the U.S. though the push is to start Algebra I for average students. Did she have pre-algebra last year in PS?  To start pre-algebra she would need to have mastered: the four basic operations with whole numbers, fractions, decimals and percents and be able to find area and perimeter.  There may be a couple of other odd topics but those are the basics.  To start algebra she will have needed to complete a solid pre-algebra course first.

If not ready for algebra I, for an 8th grader coming out of public school the best option may be to not jump into a regular graded homeschool curriculum but to do targeted work to help her prepare for high school level mathematics (for an average student this would usually mean Algebra I).  There are several ways to do this.

The option most often presented on this board is a remedial math text, Lial's Basic College Math.  Used copies are easily available online and there is a DVT option if you need that to help you teach.  Do not be deceived by the "college" in the title: it is a remedial text and can be well suited for a 12-14 year old.  The explanations are very clear and there is lots of practice for the student who needs it (struggling students often do).  However, it is a text targeted towards remedial college students and is somewhat crowded.  Coming out of public school this may not be an issue.  The advantages of this text is that if you work through the whole thing it is usually sufficient as a pre-algebra course and it would be easy to teach from for a non-mathy mom (everything you need is right there in the book).  I was able to get a full set: textbook, DVT, solution manual (you only need the student one with the odd numbered problems) of an older edition for $20 or so on ebay.  Lial's would fill in gaps and prepare her for algebra.

If she is very far behind (as in not ready for pre-Algebra because her arithmetic skills are weak) you may need to work at a slower pace and fill in those gaps with either the Key to... series or Math Mammoth Dark Blue topic worktexts.  Many times struggling students have gaps in their conceptual understanding going back as far as third grade and it is well worth your time and effort to fill these gaps before jumping in to pre-algebra work.  Doing pre-Algebra in 9th grade, Algebra I in 10th, Geometry in 11th and Algebra II in 12th will still fulfill Ohio graduation requirements.  You may even find that getting that basal work done will give her a boost in confidence and motivate her to work through pre-Algebra (using something like the Key to Algebra... series) in the summer before 9th grade to be able to start Algebra I in 9th.

I want to give you a word of warning because you stated that you are not good at math and because your student has executive functioning issues: do not expect her to work independently with a video based program.  You can help her be ready for 9th grade math, but it won't be without effort on your part.  I'm usually a big fan of older students working independently, but in a situation like this the best chance of success is a tutor (you!) working right along side.  Nothing in 8th grade math would be beyond your own abilities if you had a good text with clear explanations (and the Hive to help when you run into problems!).  Definitely use videos and whatever other support you need, but be prepared to sit right there by her side!  If your time is short (as I imagine it is!) realize that it is far more important to really solidify the 3Rs before 9th grade than anything else: if you need to drop content subjects do so - let her read from a wide variety of books and call it a day - but really get those 3Rs solid: that's the key to high school success and ultimately college readiness, not whether you managed to get through a history or science curriculum.

Caveat emptor: my eldest is only 10 but I taught middle and high school math and science for a short while before kids.  The advice above is based on that experience, including helping struggling 8th grade students with math, and long time membership on this board not personal experience with homeschooling 8th grade 🙂 

Wow, thank you so much for your detailed answer. I'm not quite sure where she is at after the 2 years in public school. She was homeschooled through 5th grade and she struggles with remembering for one thing. Grasping concepts and problem solving could be issues as well.  I could sit down with her and explain her work and she could get it right then but the next day didn't remember how to do it. That was as of a couple years ago. I do plan on doing her work along side of her as well as try to see how she does independently. I'll definitely be hands on.  I'll be schooling 3 kids and I'm home with them. Thanks for the encouragement that if I only get the basics done it's ok. Public school was stressful and I'm hoping to slow things down for her. What is Lial? It sounds interesting. I'd like to look for it.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Mom28kds

[Mom28kds]

19 hours ago, CAtoVA said:

Totally agree with Farrar—I also used the Key to Algebra series alongside CLE Algebra 1 with my DS. They were great for reinforcement when needed.

As far as mastery vs spriral goes, my DS did okay with mastery programs (Singapore) but experienced much less stress with spiral curricula such as Saxon or CLE. He was more confident solving math problems when he continually reviewed material, and the lowered stress/increased confidence greatly affected his ability to remember math concepts, his motivation to learn math, etc. Just something to consider.

 

How did you use both programs CLE and Keys to? She'd be ok with CLE but am wondering how Keys to series helps when added alongside. What's the benefit of 2 programs together?

Edited June 12, 2019 by Mom28kds

[CAtoVA]

The Keys to.... books are modules that cover individual topics within a broader mathematical subject area. There are ten of them in a set and they are sold as Keys to Decimals, Keys to Fractions, Keys to Algebra I, etc.  I would use selected topics/problems as reinforcement when my DS needed additional work in a specific area, graphing or quadratic equations, for example. I did not use them as a secondary curriculum with CLE Algebra I as that would be too much imo.  I know people sometimes use them as a total, stand alone curriculum but I would imagine that would involve buying several sets and mixing them (I'm not really sure).

The other option similar to Keys is Math Mammoth in that you can purchase downloadable modules for specific, targeted reinforcement of topics as the pp (above me) said. I also have all the MM modules for grades 1-7 (purchased over the years) but I didn't use them for DS's Algebra I (they don't cover Algebra I topics). I have used Math Mammoth for earlier grades, though, in a manner similar to Keys.

[Storygirl]

I used and liked CLE with my kids who struggle with math, when I was homeschooling. I used through level 800 with DD17 and planned to use their algebra program, but then our plans switched, and all of the children enrolled in school.

Here is some information about CLE that you may or may not know. Their high school math was previously not well regarded, because it is a repackaging of the Alpha-Omega program. The Sunrise editions of the elementary math program are often recommended, but the high school math is NOT the Sunrise edition, except for Algebra 1. They are working on revamping geometry and higher but have not released it yet, and it has been years since they released Sunrise algebra 1, so the process is not moving quickly. Therefore, after algebra, you will top out of the CLE program, unless you decide to use their old high school math. I have no experience with Alpha-Omega, but I know the reputation is inferior, at least on the WTM boards.

With that said, CLE algebra 1 is well regarded, and it would not be bad to use that and then switch to another program for geometry and beyond. I have not used MUS, but I often see it recommended for struggling learners.

My second point is that CLE can work well for students who need constant review. DS15 needs constant review, or he forgets. The problem is that with only a few problems to practice while learning new concepts, it is not always enough for students who have trouble learning concepts to really grasp what they are doing. I found that DS15 could muddle through his spiral practice and move on to the next lesson, without actually really getting it. You need to watch for that and be willing to stop and practice the concepts in other ways, instead of marching through the program. I made this mistake  -- I admit that I would just move on to the next lesson, feeling assured that he would be practicing it again anyway, since it is spiral, and so there were things that he really didn't master. If I could go back and do over, I would add sources to CLE to cement the teaching of concepts, such as the Keys To series or perhaps Khan Academy.

Now the truth is that DS's math disability gets in the way of him mastering concepts. He needs lots of practice over a long period of time, with problems presented in many ways, so that he doesn't lock into just one way of solving them.

Also, CLE does not have enough word problems. Word problems are hard for DS, so just working through the ones in there was challenging for him. BUT word problems in math adds another layer of complexity for students who have language disabilities or attention issues, because they have to interpret what the words mean and turn it into a numerical problem before solving. And be able to do multiple steps. All of those things can be hard. If they are hard for your student, you might seek out a separate source of word problems and add that in. If it seems to make the math lesson too long, have a word problem drill time each day, separate from the main math lesson.

If your student has problems retaining math facts, there are accommodations you can use for that. You can also always post on the Learning Challenges board to get advice from other moms of struggling students. There are many people on the LC boards willing to share what worked or didn't work with their kids.

[Storygirl]

Definitely take the CLE placement test and do not despair if she places much lower than the 800 level. There are ways to work through the program at a quicker pace to help catch up. However, this will not always be the best choice for struggling learners; it just depends. If she lands in the, let's say, 500 level, that is a pretty big gap to try to cover, and it would probably be better to use a different program. I would definitely place her in the level that she tests at and would not skip years.

Someone upthread posted that doing prealgebra through ninth grade, algebra in 10th, geometry in 11th, and algebra 2 in 12th still gets you through the required graduation sequence. Yes! That is the track that DS15 is on for public school.

The tricky thing is that your daughter is already going into 9th, right? So to follow the above plan, she needs to be ready for algebra in 10th. That could be challenging, depending on how far behind she is.

In our public school, for the students who cannot complete the regular math program, due to disabilities, there is a resource room / special education level of math, where the pupils have algebra when their peers have algebra, but their class does not cover ALL of the material the gen ed class does; instead it is aspects of algebra and aspects of geometry when peers are taking geometry. You may find that your daughter needs a plan that covers less material at a more basic level, and if so, there are option for that when homeschooling, and you could post on the LC board asking for ideas.

She was in public school. What were their plans for her math? Would she have been scheduled for algebra next year? Was she in the general education class or getting special education?

[CAtoVA]

Yes! My DS sounds a lot like Storygirl's son and, as I said earlier, CLE Algebra 1 with reinforcement from the Keys series has been great for him. I' m commenting yet again : ) because she makes a great point about word problems. It reminded me that CLE is a little "weak" in the word problem area which, imo, is  a significant problem for Algebra 1, but really for any math level.

What I did to "beef up" the word problems in CLE was to find extra word problems for him on Purplemath.co and other, similar web sites. Sometimes we would watch free Khan Academy videos to reinforce concepts and do the problems they have.  I also purchased cheap, used "schoolish" textbooks at my state's homeschool convention's used curriculum sale for a few dollars and mined them for useful word problems. Mainly, I put together a math program that specifically works for my DS which requires my carefully diagnosing where he is doing well and where he needs reinforcement as we complete the "spine" program (in his case now it's CLE Algebra 1). I couldn't imagine using only CLE by itself with him, or just giving the modules to him and saying "do it." That probably works for some students, it just wouldn't work for my DS, lol. 

[PeterPan]

I'm unclear whether she has an SLD or is really crunchy from the ADHD or what. In general, ADHD kids can do really well with MUS. I'm not saying it's the most stellar math ever, only that it can get done and that getting done is a virtue. 

I'm really liking this series right now with my ds, who does have an SLD in math btw. https://www.evan-moor.com/p/20051/Evan-Moor-Daily-Word-Problems-Grade-6  It's word problems, updated this year to Common Core. You may hate CC, but it's really tight with multi-step, lots of thought. I like them a lot. I'm linking a gr 6 book, don't know if they go higher. If you don't know what to do, just start running her through this, like doing a week a day. I keep it on the easy side for my ds and he can do 1-3 weeks worth a day. Also while you're doing that maybe run her through some Hands On Equations or Hands On Fractions (also borenson). Actually I thought their fractions was kinda lame and only so-so, but something like that. The Ronit Bird Fractions ebook is terrific. Where is she bogging down? She's also at a good age to do some living math. There are a few really cute books at that pre-algebra kind of level. There's a                                             A Gebra Named Al                                     

and                                             The Number Devil: A Mathematical Adventure                                       

I felt like CLE was really tedious when I tried it with my dd, but if you thought it was working well for her by all means continue. 

[Mom28kds]

12 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Definitely take the CLE placement test and do not despair if she places much lower than the 800 level. There are ways to work through the program at a quicker pace to help catch up. However, this will not always be the best choice for struggling learners; it just depends. If she lands in the, let's say, 500 level, that is a pretty big gap to try to cover, and it would probably be better to use a different program. I would definitely place her in the level that she tests at and would not skip years.

Someone upthread posted that doing prealgebra through ninth grade, algebra in 10th, geometry in 11th, and algebra 2 in 12th still gets you through the required graduation sequence. Yes! That is the track that DS15 is on for public school.

The tricky thing is that your daughter is already going into 9th, right? So to follow the above plan, she needs to be ready for algebra in 10th. That could be challenging, depending on how far behind she is.

In our public school, for the students who cannot complete the regular math program, due to disabilities, there is a resource room / special education level of math, where the pupils have algebra when their peers have algebra, but their class does not cover ALL of the material the gen ed class does; instead it is aspects of algebra and aspects of geometry when peers are taking geometry. You may find that your daughter needs a plan that covers less material at a more basic level, and if so, there are option for that when homeschooling, and you could post on the LC board asking for ideas.

She was in public school. What were their plans for her math? Would she have been scheduled for algebra next year? Was she in the general education class or getting special education?

She's going into 8th next year. She did get moved to a special Math class but I'm not sure what all they were covering. She had an IEP.

[Mom28kds]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm unclear whether she has an SLD or is really crunchy from the ADHD or what. In general, ADHD kids can do really well with MUS. I'm not saying it's the most stellar math ever, only that it can get done and that getting done is a virtue. 

I'm really liking this series right now with my ds, who does have an SLD in math btw. https://www.evan-moor.com/p/20051/Evan-Moor-Daily-Word-Problems-Grade-6  It's word problems, updated this year to Common Core. You may hate CC, but it's really tight with multi-step, lots of thought. I like them a lot. I'm linking a gr 6 book, don't know if they go higher. If you don't know what to do, just start running her through this, like doing a week a day. I keep it on the easy side for my ds and he can do 1-3 weeks worth a day. Also while you're doing that maybe run her through some Hands On Equations or Hands On Fractions (also borenson). Actually I thought their fractions was kinda lame and only so-so, but something like that. The Ronit Bird Fractions ebook is terrific. Where is she bogging down? She's also at a good age to do some living math. There are a few really cute books at that pre-algebra kind of level. There's a                                             A Gebra Named Al                                     

and                                             The Number Devil: A Mathematical Adventure                                       

I felt like CLE was really tedious when I tried it with my dd, but if you thought it was working well for her by all means continue. 

Are you only doing the Evan Moor or is it just for the word problems part?  What is a SLD. She has ADHD non attentive type. In researching the issues I see with her she has definite executive functions issues as well which I've read is a result of the ADHD

[PeterPan]

SLD=specific learning disability. So SLD math=dyscalculia. SLD reading = dyslexia plus some other things like comprehension problems. SLD writing=dysgraphia plus issues with organization and EF.

No I use a hodgepodge of things to tackle areas he's weak in and give him fun at the same time. So I like the Evan Moor for the word problems, use Ronit Bird for conceptual instruction, use Lakeshore Learning kits to tackle hands-on projects, use living math books like                                             Learning About Percentages at the Mall (Real World Math, Level 5)                                      to get him applying it in real life and engaging ways, etc. I'm using the Tang Math with him right now also, but I'm not sure that's useful to you. It just hits him where he is. 

My ds has an SLD plus autism, so he needs everything broken down into teeny tiny pieces for it to make sense and he needs to see the concept in lots of settings for him to be able to "generalize" or use it in real life. I can't just do one curriculum, one way, because if I change the curriculum or the setting he literally won't know it. He's kinda your worst case scenario for a very bright kid, lol. 

So I wasn't saying to use that Evan Moor word problems stuff long-term. You're only talking a couple months if she does one week a day. What I was thinking it would bring her skills up, get her balanced out (so she can do with word problems what she's been doing with computation) and give you something you could do immediately while you sort out the bigger curriculum question. 

[Lecka]

Can you look on her IEP and see if it says anything about math?  It might tell what they had her working on.  

[Mom28kds]

7 hours ago, Lecka said:

Can you look on her IEP and see if it says anything about math?  It might tell what they had her working on.  

I'll see if it says. I don't think it does though 🙂