Talk to me about how language delays affect life

[rose]

I think that the title says it all. I just want to consider the way in which my 5yo's language delays might be affecting him that I could be missing.

[PeterPan]

The discrepancy is less obvious a 5 than it will be over the next few years. My ds' wasn't glaringly obvious till more like 7 to 8. He was hyperlexic in spite of reading instruction, was not able to follow commands (because your expectation of the complexity of the command increases), was struggling to answer questions (locations, etc.), and was not developing syntactic complexity. By age 6 most dc will be using syntactically complete sentences and are able to start exploring the subtleties of MEANING that flow from those more complex constructions. He's also been held from enjoying church because he doesn't understand the language of the music, can't do the LA expectations, can't memorize/recite the Scriptures. 

Remember too that language flows through EVERYTHING you're going to do academically. My ds functions, for content, on science multiple grades ahead. But because of language he has to work behind, working on basic skills and the ability to understand and use the language. Math requires language. My ds qualifies for a scribe per his IEP but his language shuts down when he's stressed. We've also had to spend extra time making words for math have meaning both in word problems and in real life. For writing, well writing gets entirely glitched with the language problems, sigh. 

SLPs will do something called a MLU=mean length utterance, where they basically transcribe everything the dc says for 30 minutes and then do some calculations on it. What they found was that my ds in conversation had exceptionally brief MLU and little variety to the structures. When talking about his areas of interest, areas where he had been typically watching tv or listening to audiobooks, he had more language that we later realized was typically scripting, memorized, whole swath. 

So when you have autism, you can't just look at whether he's talking or not. You're looking at every structure and whether he's scripting or using original language, whether there's variety, where his narrative language is, where his vocabulary is, etc. etc. There's a LOT you can do in a home setting to work on language!! It's not like I'm some huge fan of SLPs. I have yet to fine one who was game to do what my ds REALLY has needed done. Some do and I hear about them, sure. In fact Jenn who used to post here a lot was from Canada and had an SLP who was very attentive to language on every level as well as the apraxia. But where I live, with access to two major cities? Nope, typically they're kind of superficial. It's why I ended up doing it myself, because I don't have time to drive to tons of therapists begging them to do it. 

As far as testing, there are screener/overall tests and then more in-depth testing. So typically they'll run the CELF and say the kid is fine. The CELF has poor sensitivity and it's a known issue. What finally showed it on my ds was the SPELT (which has no models) and the TNL. There's also conflict and turf war stuff between the SLPs and the ABA/ASD people. The SLPs don't like that BCBAs work on language, but reality is the BCBAs and their ABA workers have more access and more hours than the SLPs. So you want to look in BOTH camps. The ABA people are going to use stuff like the VM-PAC (which you can buy and do yourself, yes!!) and the VBA=verbal behavior approach. There's a really thick insomnia cure kinda textbook I read on VBA when I was trying to wrap my brain around it to help my ds. What I finally realized was VBA and SLPs were saying the same things but calling them different names.

So when you wrap your brain around the names and what you're looking for, then you can use ANY benchmark, ANY set of materials, and do informal assessment and happily thorough intervention yourself. 

[PeterPan]

Like I said, it's kinda a snooze, but it's what I read last year. And I have a whole thread explaining what I did, the logic, how the ABA and SLP terms related, etc.          Verbal Behavior Analysis: Inducing and Expanding New Verbal Capabilities in Children with Language Delays Inducing and Expanding New Verbal Capabilities in Children with Language Delays      

With a 5 yo, I'd be trying to get the VM-PAC done. My ds was diagnosed later, and it was a shame we missed it. It would have caught a lot of basic holes and the assessment is also the roadmap to intervention.

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

With a 5 yo, I'd be trying to get the VM-PAC done. My ds was diagnosed later, and it was a shame we missed it. It would have caught a lot of basic holes and the assessment is also the roadmap to intervention.

Yes, I agree.

For my son, making requests was difficult even when he had full sentences, original language, etc. So, if he had a problem, he might describe the situation in great detail six ways to Sunday, but leave the adult to realize that he was basically talking through a "proof" and at the end, you were supposed to conclude what the problem actually was! And there was enormous frustration if you just treated this big information dump as a pile of facts because he'd worked so hard to step you through the logic piece by piece, lol! This was the ONLY way he could state a problem for years, and basically the only way he could ask questions that were more complicated than, say, "Did you say the blue one or the green one, mom?" Obviously, when he was little, even asking those kinds of questions didn't answer. He was super good at combining phrases and miming to get what he needed. It sounds obvious now, but at the time, he was doing this in a way that didn't seem like it was a problem (combo of disability and giftedness cancelling each other out).

Integration of any kind of language with gestures, body language, and facial expressions was difficult. Tone of voice translated the best, but many kids have trouble with tone of voice, and even for us, it was better, but it wasn't typical. 

Grading shades of meaning with emotion words was very difficult. He could grade meaning with all kinds of concepts, but not with feelings. Everything with feelings was positive or negative, and that was as subtle as he could get. So, if someone was stern with him, he thought they were furious with him, and he would conclude they didn't like him. We could kind of explain it, and then he'd feel better about it, but it left him high and dry when he was facing things solo, like at school or at church. We also didn't realize it was happening, because we were just used to explaining things to him. The need to explain so much should have been a red flag, but again, he was interested in things beyond his years, and we just kind of got used to it. (He's the older of my kids.) At some point, an ABA person worked with him a great deal on the emotions, body language, etc., and it was really, really helpful.

Sequencing was kind of an issue--you identified it, but with my son it wasn't so much steps (though they could be tricky sometimes) as it was beginning, middle, end. In fact, it was more of a parts to whole thing. He just told all or nothing of a story; he couldn't retell with varying levels of detail (still working on that, but it's improving vastly). Wh- questions were a big thing. Connector words and phrases were a big thing he didn't do much of. 

He struggles to generalize. He often over or under-generalizes situations. I can't think of a good example with language that my son actually did (he does it more with expectations of how things should go), but I have heard of kids mixing up apple as a category and calling all fruit apples. So, I think one way this comes up (we missed all this when he was little) is feature, function, class to fix this kind of error. But then, there are generalizations that are more just making broad statements. Those are difficult for him, except maybe if he's catastrophizing something. Otherwise, it's really hard for him to sum up the essence of something (getting better though!). 

My son also had some novel phrases. It often made sense, but wasn't expected. Since we plug things in, he started saying "plug it out" for unplug. 

Neurotypical kids will do some of this stuff too, but they won't do it as often, or in as confusing a way, etc.

Language can make transitions hard. I don't see this as much with my son, but I have seen it with other kids. It seems like there is a lot of social understanding that is required for smooth transitions. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

...making requests

...body language, and facial expressions was difficult

...Grading shades of meaning

...Sequencing

...generalize

Yes, good stuff. These are things she should expect because it's autism.

Without roadmaps, autism-specific checklists, you're going to have so many things going on that it's like where to start, how to prioritize. I remember hearing all these voices and reading all this stuff, and it was confusing how to sort out what to prioritize. Like should we be working on RDI (for non-verbals help) or praxis or preschool academics or behavior or... Communication is usually going to be at the TOP of the list, because it's pivotal. There's the idea of pivotal response therapies or a pivotal response approach where we're going to look for what we could unlock that would make lots of other things go better. And language is always going to be right up there, because it's pivotal and glitching almost everything else.

When a dc is ASD2 or 3 support level, that's part of what we're expecting is that really significant language delay, some kind of significant effect on language. And conversely, it's what tells us the dc (op's) is probably not a level 1, because the language issues are so significant. 

The plus side, language issues respond really well to bulk effort. In our area they'll bring in a college student, something 18-21, give them some goals and good things to do together (puzzles, card games, playing at the park, playing with duplos, etc.) and have really clear but attainable goals like practicing responding to hello, practicing colors, extending the lengths of utterances, turn taking, ask questions. This does not have to be an SLP or a high $$ per hour kinda person. It's literally just the doing it, doing it, doing it using a really basic roadmap so you know what you're trying to work on. 

Your best tip of the day is to use lists like that and have that plan. You can even make a checklist and everyone who works with him can tick with little checkboxes or circle how well he did with the goal. (got 25%, 50% 75%, 100%) Hopefully you'll see fast progress and the data will let you see that. Or if you think it's burdensome for them, only make data the time *you* work with him each day. You'll still be tracking his progress from day to day, which will let you know how you're doing. It keeps it from drifting and keeps it really concrete.

Edited May 10, 2019 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

DS15 had a speech delay when he was a toddler and has had pragmatic language delay since that point. His ongoing issues have become more entrenched and obvious to me and to his SLPs over time.

A couple of thoughts:

-- DS did not acquire background knowledge just by living life, the way that most kids do. So now things happen or come up in conversation or his reading, and they have to be explained to him, while other kids will understand immediately. For example. when he was reading a story about the Titanic, he had to be told what an iceberg is and why it's dangerous, while the other kids would already know this. His intervention teacher really worked hard with him on that Titanic unit to get him to understand it -- not just the iceberg part, but all of it, including the social interactions.This was in sixth grade. If you read a history story, for example, you can't assume he knows the difference between a king and a prince (making this up, but it's a good example of what one assumes kids get, but he doesn't).

So talking about everything over and over again is important, just as you do regular life.

-- DS loves jokes because he likes to be funny, but he doesn't understand them. This has created all sorts of problems now that he is a teen, because he will repeat things he has heard that have gotten a laugh, but he doesn't understand that he is insulting people or being racist or saying things that would be offensive to girls. If it's funny, that is good enough reason to him to repeat it. And he doesn't have the ability to look at things from someone else's perspective, so he doesn't understand the importance of adjusting his speech for the audience. And he doesn't stop doing it, even when he is told it is offensive, because not offending others is not a priority for him, sadly. So it is a pervasive problem.

-- This inability to relate to the people you are talking to is a major issue in many ways.

-- DS has trouble reading and using nonverbal communication, such as facial expression and body language, which is a whole thread of it's own, but it affects all of his communication.

-- DS shuts down and does not talk to people in authority (teachers, doctors, etc), other than one-word answers, like Yes and No, even though he talks freely at home and to peers. We have a large list of concerns related to this as he gets older, including being able to manage his own medical care, succeed in a job interview, and interact with a boss or co-workers. His communication issues are the main concern for how well he will transition into adult life.

--DS has had years of therapy with SLPs at school for social communication now. He has learned how to give correct answers during sessions, but he does not USE the skills. So for him it has been a harder nut to crack than just teaching him something and him being able to do it. He can know it but still not do it.

 

[Storygirl]

I wouldn't have predicted these things when DS was five, by the way.

If I had had a glimpse into the future, I think I would have worked on getting him to notice and attend to things around him. He has ADHD, so he was really scattered in his attention at that age. Pointing out things around us and having him talk about them. For example, if we passed cows while driving, talk about the cows. Back then, I would have said, "Look, cows!!" as one does. But for him I would have asked him some questions to get him to observe things about them for himself. And talked about what cows do and why farmers have them.

And so an and so forth for everything in life.

Here's a little snippet from last night. We had meatballs. DS15 asked if meatballs were hamburgers. DH said, not that hamburgers were different but both were made from ground beef. They seemed like little hamburgers but were different. DS didn't just say, "Oh, I get it." He stuck to his thought that meatballs are hamburgers and wouldn't switch his thinking, even after it had been explained several times to him.

That is kind of minor. It's good that DS noticed that hamburgers and meatballs have similarities. But he wouldn't accept that they have differences that make them separate things.

 

 

 

[Storygirl]

I was one of those moms that talked a lot about everything to my kids.

But I guess what I wish I had done differently is pay attention to what DS15 was TAKING IN from what I was saying. Because he wasn't taking it in and understanding, and I didn't recognize that.

And then to make things tricky for me, my other son was not good a auditory processing, so when I talked too much, it overwhelmed him, and he would miss information.

It was really hard to balance this and make sure that all of my kids would get what they needed. I recognized that DS14 needed less auditory input and tried to adjust to that. But I missed that DS15 was not understanding and generalizing life and background information.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

His communication issues are the main concern for how well he will transition into adult life.

It's hard to "like" this, as it's sad, sigh. 

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

DS15 asked if meatballs were hamburgers. DH said, not that hamburgers were different but both were made from ground beef. They seemed like little hamburgers but were different. DS didn't just say, "Oh, I get it." He stuck to his thought that meatballs are hamburgers and wouldn't switch his thinking, even after it had been explained several times to him.

That is kind of minor. It's good that DS noticed that hamburgers and meatballs have similarities. But he wouldn't accept that they have differences that make them separate things.

Fwiw, that seems like a FFC thing to me. So you have the category of meat and subcategories of what types of meat and then whether they're ground or chunks or cuts. I've had to do a lot of work with my ds with FFC and it's a known autism thing, something that will be on the VMPAC, something that they skip if they just kinda assume it's all there. Like oh the kid is verbal, he doesn't need that. That's what they did with my ds. And no, that idea of categories and features and what categories they could be in and how we could sort and resort them by categories. So like all the chicken dishes we make that use chunk chicken, all the dishes we make that use ground chicken. That would be a sort and then sorting the same things a totally different way (meats we eat as chunks, meats we eat as cuts), and you could make it more interesting by then ordering them by more preferred, less preferred, and sorting across meats and cuts and dishes with sauce and dishes without sauce and so on. 

Story has said in the past her ds can't tell what he wants for breakfast, and my ds does this. And some of it is just interoception, attention, stopping and noticing the stomach and taking the time to do something about it. However the other piece is that the brain organization isn't there to say these are my top 5 breakfast foods and I know what they are and will be happy with them. Even if we list them, they could be scattered in the brain. Like instant oats could be filed under "foods I ate while on vacation at Disney" and not come over to the "breakfast at home" folder in the brain. So we're always concerned about how things are organized and sorting in the brain and how we can get more connections made so he can sort more ways and realize the options and generalize information and get it to where he can pull it up and use it.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

But I guess what I wish I had done differently

It's sorta hard because we figure all this stuff out with hindsight. And although it won't make you feel any better, I think some things are so pervasive they would have been hard and still present even if we had known and been able to work on them. If it's not one thing, it's the next. There still would have been more. 

But like you say, our goal is function and that's where the rubber is going to meet the road on this. 

[kbutton]

10 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

However the other piece is that the brain organization isn't there to say these are my top 5 breakfast foods and I know what they are and will be happy with them. Even if we list them, they could be scattered in the brain. Like instant oats could be filed under "foods I ate while on vacation at Disney" and not come over to the "breakfast at home" folder in the brain. So we're always concerned about how things are organized and sorting in the brain and how we can get more connections made so he can sort more ways and realize the options and generalize information and get it to where he can pull it up and use it.

Lol, yes! 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

But I missed that DS15 was not understanding and generalizing life and background information.

It's very easy to miss. Really. 

[PeterPan]

For op, I'm harping on this FFC thing, but multi-sorts and being able to realize how words relate is both an autism thing AND a serious known comprehension issue.                                             Word Callers: Small-Group and One-to-One Interventions for Children Who "Read" but Don't Comprehend (Research-Informed Classroom)                                       This is a whole book on it. You just haven't had fun till you realize you finally get him reading and he's hyperlexic and not understanding what he's reading. And if he doesn't get him early, the next slump is around that 4th grade reading level, when the syntactic complexity, social thinking demands, everything comes together. 

[Storygirl]

Word Callers is meant for teachers. How well does it work when homeschooling, and what ages is it for. The OP has a five year old. I have a 15 year old going into high school. Would it be useful for both of us? Or neither? Maybe it is for intermediate grades, where the kids already know how to read and are past the phonics stage?

 

[Storygirl]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

It's very easy to miss. Really. 

Yes, the background knowledge gaps are really easy to miss. My style of teaching while homeschooling was heavy on reading, explaining, and giving historical background. I chose materials that tied in to each other and did a lot of homemade unit studies. I also talked a lot while we were out and about for our daily activities. I read to my kids a ton. We went to a lot of museums and talked about the exhibits. So on and so forth.

And I just figured it was sinking in for DS15 the way that one would expect. When he enrolled in school in fifth grade, and I got feedback from his intervention teacher that he lacked background knowledge, I was really surprised.

I don't really have regret. I mean, I wish I had known, so that I could have tried even harder, but I'm not sure it would have helped. The key problem is not that I was failing to give him experiences to build background knowledge.

What I think I could have done differently is to encourage him to talk more, so that I could see the holes more. I tended to be wordy as a teacher and as a mom and did a lot of the talking. Paying more attention to the communication he was (or was not) giving back to me might have helped. Again, though, I had four kids to pay attention to, which muddied the waters. Spending more time getting him to talk to me one on one would have been helpful. We really did everything as a group, because it's how I managed things. Individual time with him would have helped me notice things more, I think.

I'm just thinking back to when DS was five, since the OP's son is five, and what I would have watched for, if I had known.

[Kanin]

5 hours ago, kbutton said:

 

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

However the other piece is that the brain organization isn't there to say these are my top 5 breakfast foods and I know what they are and will be happy with them. Even if we list them, they could be scattered in the brain. Like instant oats could be filed under "foods I ate while on vacation at Disney" and not come over to the "breakfast at home" folder in the brain. So we're always concerned about how things are organized and sorting in the brain and how we can get more connections made so he can sort more ways and realize the options and generalize information and get it to where he can pull it up and use it.

This is a really great way of showing why categories are important. If so many things have their own specific file, but aren't put together in the same folder, quickly accessing information is impossible. I was thinking about this at the grocery store the other day - I ran into a friend and we couldn't figure out where the panko bread crumbs would be. They weren't with bread, they weren't with spices/baking stuff, and it turned out they were in the aisle with croutons and stuff. It was really annoying trying to figure out what the heck category we should be looking for. I imagine that's what it's like a lot of the time for someone who doesn't have knowledge efficiently categorized. At the store, I was just trying to FIND something... imagine how much more frustrating it would be to not be able to express my thoughts/feelings/needs quickly and efficiently. 

That 100% vocabulary book is great for working on these skills, but it's way above the level of a 5 year old. Is there some kind of primary-age book that works on this? I'm picturing something with picture cards that can be sorted different ways (like the Word Callers book, but more little-kid friendly). 

That reminds me. I borrowed a box of picture cards from the SLP at school, and they're  broken up into categories like clothes, foods, school stuff, etc. I like to take 3 or 4 cards and have kids tell me why they're all the same (all things you write with, for example), or which one doesn't belong (pencil, pen, marker, stapler), etc. 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Word Callers is meant for teachers. How well does it work when homeschooling, and what ages is it for. The OP has a five year old. I have a 15 year old going into high school. Would it be useful for both of us? Or neither? Maybe it is for intermediate grades, where the kids already know how to read and are past the phonics stage?

 

WC is by a psych, so she's looking at the language problems holding back kids who are decoding but not comprehending. If you buy it new, it includes a set of cards to do the types of multi-sorts she teaches. She also has chapters on other language issues affecting reading comprehension. It's meant for an intervention or therapy setting and would be used by intervention specialists or SLPs typically. None of the techniques are difficult or beyond us in a homeschool setting and the book is VERY approachable, a very easy read. This is not a technical, dry manual. I don't think anyone here would have any problems picking it up and using the concepts.

I think with a 15 yo, it might not reflect the *extent* of what's going on. I'm referenced it for Rose because it lets her see where this is going. 

Can you see the toc to see what topics are covered? I really don't remember how informative the titles were. The concepts she covers are so simple that it's easy to gloss how profound they are. Also, she's covering them at the most basic level and not getting into the weeds on all the precursor skills. Like how do you do the WC multi-sorts if you haven't worked on FCC and the c doesn't have that skill? She talks about jokes and amibiguity, but again that's sort of end fruit for a longer process. So I would say she's not trying to be encyclopedia on language comprehension but rather to bring to the front issues that people aren't connecting. I found it useful, but I'm not sure it's the issue for your 15 yo. Some of the issues she addresses could be there, but she's literally addressing that question of word calling, hyperlexia, kids who are reading a sentence and not attaching meaning to it. 

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

That 100% vocabulary book is great for working on these skills, but it's way above the level of a 5 year old.

The 5 yo with ASD should be doing it via the VMPAC. 

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

I borrowed a box of picture cards from the SLP at school, and they're  broken up into categories like clothes, foods, school stuff, etc. I like to take 3 or 4 cards and have kids tell me why they're all the same (all things you write with, for example), or which one doesn't belong (pencil, pen, marker, stapler), etc. 

Ok, so when we started doing FFC sorting with my ds, he was all over the place, making these really out there connections that a kid with a gifted IQ can, but not being able to say something like they're all foods or they're all green or they all have tails or they all jump, kwim? So as we worked through 100% Vocab (I'm about to get profound here), I applied the skill from the 100% vocab chapter (which I also practiced with SPOTLIGHT and SPARC and anything else I could find) *to* the picture sorting cards. 

So if that week we were working on talking about functions, then we were going to sort cards only by FUNCTIONS. That's your verbs. Things they do or things you do with them. All the things that jump, all the things you can drive, all the things you can eat, all the things you can write with, blah blah. Nothing else. Nothing all the things Martians might use for Valentines. Just do them jump or fly or whatever. And that was rocket science. And we only did in a really open-ended game after we had spent 10-15 hours practicing lots of other ways. I used the sorting cards from Linguisystems that are really tight. They may be what you have. That end of the week sort, end of the chapter, was really open-ended like using pictures from Pickles to Penguins. Check it out, cute game, super useful. He didn't need tighter sorts a long time, but he needed them to really seal the deal IN HIS BRAIN that things have attributes, things have functions, things have features (parts), things are in categories, etc. We did a LOT of list-making. Listmaking is seriously valuable and costs nothing.

So if the dc is young enough to use a tool like the VMPAC, obviously a behaviorist would. The schools and SLPs don't because they engage in turf war. I see no logical reason why SLPs know zilcho about VBA and language development theories for autism and say they can't study it because it's VBA. Stupidity. 

Where was this going, haha. I'm telling you that single thing just BLOWS MY MIND. The utter pigeon-holing of the field, where the SLPs are like oh why do we need them and the BCBAs are the ones with the hours trying to do the heavy lifting it REALLY TAKES. This is what it really took for my ds and why kids are getting assigned massive hours of ABA, to develop these skills. It's not like 1 hour a week, 30 minutes a week, whatever the SLP gets would do that, get real. And it's not beyond us to do once we realize. And EVERY TIME WE UNLOCK ANOTHER PIECE WE DO SOMETHING MAGICAL. It's not like oh we didn't do it perfectly and completely so we still failed. Literally just making the effort on one area, any area, and nailing it, is a huge win, unlocking function for the next person to harness.

functions=verbs. So if we nail them, suddenly we can use verbs in our writing, will be more observant about verbs in our reading, maybe will be ready to notice verb tenses and be more accurate in our conversations and comprehension. Huge win, all because we did some sorts and talked about what things can do and what we use them for and got that type of sorting organized in the brain.

attributes=features=adjectives. And don't we all love them and need them? They boost reading comprehension and specificity. 

class=categories=ability to tell what something is. I play a game now every day where I have my ds DESCRIBE something. And what does he need to start with? The CATEGORY. It's so frustrating if he's telling you all these details and you're like bud that's nice but I seriously have no clue what it could possibly be because you're totally out of the blue, not even getting me into a ballpark. It's a thought process, realizing whether people are on your page and ready to fill in dots or whether you're talking about something they have no clue about. Kbutton is always telling us how her ds does this. And it starts with this simple stuff where we build into their brains that people think this way, that the world is orderly.

Now I will rabbit trail. When I was in school, I could not deal with history because I thought it was thousands upon thousands of separate events. I saw timelines in my texts, but I never knew any of them actually OVERLAPPED!!! So there was the US and Egypt and all these places, but they didn't overlap in my world. Then I started teaching my dd history (teaching would be an overstatement, read throwing it at her) and found out there was order, that you could outline it, and that things overlapped. I'm like NO WAY, YOU MEAN I CAN ACTUALLY WRAP MY BRAIN AROUND THIS?? LOL

So we want to organize the brain and create order in a person where things are misfiled, all over the place, not useable, not organized, not retrievable. When the mini-columns are very closely spaced and so highly connective like the MRIs are showing for ASD, I think you just get scads of connections. But are they USEFUL connections? So going back and doing simple things organizes the brain, calms it down, makes the connections that got missed. 

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

That 100% vocabulary book is great for working on these skills, but it's way above the level of a 5 year old. Is there some kind of primary-age book that works on this?

https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31856/spotlight-on-vocabulary-level-1-6book-set.aspx  Spotlight on Vocabulary, level 1, is what I used alongside 100% Vocab Rothstein. It says ages 6-8. This was last summer and my ds was 9 1/2. It was essential and amazing, but we did go through it very quickly. We were doing each workbook in 1-2 weeks. Like literally I just broke it up and said how many pages do we have to get through to make it through and plowed. I'm apparently not a nice person, lol.

I don't know if my ds could have done it earlier. I think you would do the VMPAC before that. I think you would take 100% vocab and use it as an outline to realize *what* you should be teaching. The SPARC books are a lower entry point and they're amazing. https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31159/sparc-for-attributes.aspx  Yup, this SPARC says ages 4-10. I super love the SPARC series. But do catch that we did this work lots of ways. We didn't just buy the SPARC book. I think that could be a really hard starting point for some kids and perfect for others. You want to step them up so they're ready to do it and succeed.

And I just checked and Rothstein says ages 6-9. I think it might not be as bad as you think. A lot of these therapy workbooks are set up to take a year. Like they'll have 36 weeks or chapters or lessons or something. So it's really handy for intervention. And to me, like if you knew you were not going to get through everything I would just make smaller goals, like getting through 1/2 the book or something.

Edited May 11, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Spending more time getting him to talk to me one on one would have been helpful.

So with my ds, part of it is noticing the exact language, using the academic vocabulary. So like if they're talking about trees and the life cycle of a tree, op will want a manipulative and want him to actually say it and move the pieces and use the vocabulary. Also I find myself going back and reading a lot of these simpler children's books (on trees and holidays and this and that) now that ds actually has the language to comprehend and interact with them. But it's not like we're late. He wasn't really ready to do this earlier. They talk about learning to read vs. reading to learn, but maybe it's also that way with language, that you're learning to use the language and then you're using the language to learn.

[Crimson Wife]

11 hours ago, Storygirl said:

 DS did not acquire background knowledge just by living life, the way that most kids do. So now things happen or come up in conversation or his reading, and they have to be explained to him, while other kids will understand immediately.

Yes, this. I had to spend a good 15 minutes explaining the verbal pun "chili today, hot tamale" because my DD didn't understand it. With one of my other kids I might've had to spend 30 seconds explaining what a tamale is since it's not a Mexican entree I personally serve, but they would've gotten the pun after that. With my SN child I had to explain that "chili" the food sounds like "chilly" the weather descriptor and that "tamale" sounds a bit similar to "tomorrow". Furthermore, I had to specifically tell her I was making a joke.

[kbutton]

The SLP version of feature, function, class might be something like the Expanding Expression Tool. I think Rose needs the VB-MAP, but Storygirl or others working with older kids might want to check out that tool. https://www.expandingexpression.com/   Pinterest and TpT have a lot of ideas about how to use it. 

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

The SLP version of feature, function, class might be something like the Expanding Expression Tool. I think Rose needs the VB-MAP, but Storygirl or others working with older kids might want to check out that tool. https://www.expandingexpression.com/   Pinterest and TpT have a lot of ideas about how to use it. 

 

I should get my hands on it and see how much farther EET goes. Yes, from what I've seen online EET is definitely hitting your FFC stuff. It pushes a little farther into composition and is assuming some basic skills for language are already present. But yeah, for Mainer, that would be a really great suggestion. The SLPs in the autism schools usually have it, so it's kind of a normal tool to have.

V/V is another that hits your FFC, though it's from a totally different angle.

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I should get my hands on it and see how much farther EET goes. Yes, from what I've seen online EET is definitely hitting your FFC stuff. It pushes a little farther into composition and is assuming some basic skills for language are already present. But yeah, for Mainer, that would be a really great suggestion. The SLPs in the autism schools usually have it, so it's kind of a normal tool to have.

V/V is another that hits your FFC, though it's from a totally different angle.

You can use the EET for something as small as writing a definition to organizing longer writing. 

[rose]

On 5/11/2019 at 12:29 PM, Storygirl said:

Yes, the background knowledge gaps are really easy to miss. My style of teaching while homeschooling was heavy on reading, explaining, and giving historical background. I chose materials that tied in to each other and did a lot of homemade unit studies. I also talked a lot while we were out and about for our daily activities. I read to my kids a ton. We went to a lot of museums and talked about the exhibits. So on and so forth.

And I just figured it was sinking in for DS15 the way that one would expect. When he enrolled in school in fifth grade, and I got feedback from his intervention teacher that he lacked background knowledge, I was really surprised.

I don't really have regret. I mean, I wish I had known, so that I could have tried even harder, but I'm not sure it would have helped. The key problem is not that I was failing to give him experiences to build background knowledge.

What I think I could have done differently is to encourage him to talk more, so that I could see the holes more. I tended to be wordy as a teacher and as a mom and did a lot of the talking. Paying more attention to the communication he was (or was not) giving back to me might have helped. Again, though, I had four kids to pay attention to, which muddied the waters. Spending more time getting him to talk to me one on one would have been helpful. We really did everything as a group, because it's how I managed things. Individual time with him would have helped me notice things more, I think.

I'm just thinking back to when DS was five, since the OP's son is five, and what I would have watched for, if I had known.

This is really helpful. I really have noticed lately that I haven't been giving him enough time to talk. It takes him a little bit of effort to come up with what he wants to say and usually someone else is interrupting him before he even finishes. I've been trying to correct that but it take a bit of effort to quite the other littles and the insure that they aren't answering questions for him.

I've noticed with my older two NT children that when I introduced tests (at about jr high level) to their education I realized that my dd wasn't grasping things as well as I thought that she was. I now see that some sort of assessment is necessary, even if it's just verbal feedback, to really see if a child is grasping what you're teaching. It's really easy to assume that someone is understanding when they don't readily ask question that reveal their lack of comprehension.

On 5/11/2019 at 4:32 PM, PeterPan said:

So with my ds, part of it is noticing the exact language, using the academic vocabulary. So like if they're talking about trees and the life cycle of a tree, op will want a manipulative and want him to actually say it and move the pieces and use the vocabulary. Also I find myself going back and reading a lot of these simpler children's books (on trees and holidays and this and that) now that ds actually has the language to comprehend and interact with them. But it's not like we're late. He wasn't really ready to do this earlier. They talk about learning to read vs. reading to learn, but maybe it's also that way with language, that you're learning to use the language and then you're using the language to learn.

This is good. I can really see that without working on language knowledge acquisition will be stunted.

13 hours ago, kbutton said:

The SLP version of feature, function, class might be something like the Expanding Expression Tool. I think Rose needs the VB-MAP, but Storygirl or others working with older kids might want to check out that tool. https://www.expandingexpression.com/   Pinterest and TpT have a lot of ideas about how to use it. 

 

Can you please explain what VB-MAP is? I googled it but maybe a layman's definition would be more helpful. I'm a little lost in this thread with all the acronyms but I am appreciating the feedback nonetheless. Thanks everyone. 🙂

[Crimson Wife]

1 hour ago, rose said:

 

Can you please explain what VB-MAP is? I googled it but maybe a layman's definition would be more helpful. I'm a little lost in this thread with all the acronyms but I am appreciating the feedback nonetheless. Thanks everyone. 🙂

It's an assessment used by Applied Behavioral Analysis therapists that goes up to IIRC a neurotypical 5 year old level. It covers language, social, self-help, and pre-academic skills. It's written in ABA lingo so if you don't know the terminology, it's going to be hard to interpret the results.

ETA: I would recommend reading The Verbal Behavior Approach by Dr. Mary Barbera prior to attempting to use the VB-MAPP.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Crimson Wife

[Lecka]

Mary Barbera (author of The Verbal Behavior Approach) has a nice website. 

I am listening to her be interviewed on a podcast right now — she is on The Autism Helper Podcast today.  

[Lecka]

https://www.marybarbera.com/. Here is her website.

Edit:  her book is very worthwhile!

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Lecka