Strada/Gallup poll on hiring and college attended

[8filltheheart]

Someone just shared this poll with me and I thought I'd share it here:

http://www.stradaeducation.org/americas-employers-place-technical-skills-and-work-experience-above-rankings/

Quote

According to a new national survey of employers commissioned by Strada Education Network and conducted by Gallup, 90 percent of hiring professionals say they don’t focus on college rankings when making hiring decisions.

Based on interviews with 2,108 business professionals who assess and hire new employees at their companies, the majority (56%) said that college rank is “Not at all important” when making hiring decisions about an applicant. An additional 34 percent said that college rank is “Not very important.” Together, that’s a whopping 90 percent of hiring professionals who say they don’t focus on college rankings when considering a job candidate.

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[catz]

This seems like a "duh" thing to me.  My state flagship BA/MM holding DH works daily with MIT grads.  He has had MIT grads working for him - he may now for that matter.  I know state grads working in the financial district in NYC.  Etc etc etc.  

But don't post it over on CC because them's fightin' words.  🤣

[...................]

For my dd, this is great info, and definitely encouraging.  She plans to be a librarian, where you can have pretty much any bachelor's degree and the name of the game is to start at ground level and work up the ladder while getting your Master's online 🙂 It's a government job that's all about proving you can be dependable, not get on anyone's nerves and have enough ooomph to make it around the politics, while still actually loving books and the public.  🙂 

But, many of the best companies in the world will throw your resume right in the trash (or delete it actually), if it's not from a U they recognize.  ....so....it's not worthless to go to one of the highly ranked colleges- depending on your goals and dreams, finances and abilities.

It also goes without saying that the best universities in the world attract really cool, amazing people.  We lived right near Stanford and our church was full of Stanford kids, and my kids went to Stanford Splash over and over, and I will not hesitate to say, there is something truly amazing/special/unique WOWing about all the Stanford people I have ever met.  And, this may not be true of all of the elite schools but they were all super humble and really loving and friendly- my kids got invited to the Stanford track meets, and one of the Stanford grad students invited my son to his Physics lab...they really want to share their knowledge!  Being in an atmosphere like that, could definitely affect a gifted young person's life in a very positive way.  

[Lanny]

I suspect that the Major may impact that.  Many years ago, the first time I went to Seattle to work for an Aerospace company, under contract, I was told they had a list of approximately 50 universities.  If the person was a graduate of a university that wasn't on their list, that person did not have the title "Engineer" on their badge.  

Whether or not they do that today I don't know...

[catz]

I don't doubt companies might have favorite lists especially when hiring brand new grads.  I used to hire in software engineering and our favorite new grads at that time came out of a handful of public tech flagship programs with a BS.  They had the best tech skills plus they were self reliant, motivated, and scrappy.  They needed less hand holding and could run with projects.  If you were a new grad with a BA from anywhere, you weren't hired as a software engineer unless you had worked as one somewhere else first.

But after 2-3 years of base level experience somewhere and a couple professional references I think the schools matter much less.  That is different if companies are looking for particular certifications, licensing or ABET grads, etc.   I also think off the beaten path schools often have better placement services than people know or acknowledge.  We visited several little Midwesestern CTCL LAC's that all placed students in internships and first jobs all over the place.  

I know a family that just uprooted from the Midwest after the dad was recruited HARD to a major company we would all recognize in the silicone valley  after doing his undergrad at a Midwestern LAC and his master's and PhD at a big ten school after a hand full of years of work experience.  He actually is not working in tech either.   I know a 20 year old just accepted to a fantastic law school after doing 2 years of DE and flying in the honors program at our flagship.  We live urban, so I know kids at elites right now too.  The biggest difference between those flagship honors kids and the elite school kids is the ability to afford those programs.  They go to high school side by side.

I don't doubt there are amenities and advantages to certain schools.   I graduated from a big 10 tech program and that was definitely a sink or swim experience.  I think the school works a little harder to make sure students that are admitted have the ability to succeed, but probably not to the degree of a private school.  My kid has a couple apps out to reachy-reachy schools that aren't likely to work out financially for us even if he were to be admitted.  But hey, if it happened to work somehow (DH is the numbers guy so he makes final call) I'd be happy to send him to one of them.   But I don't think it would make or break his life.

My DH and I live in an urban neighborhoood alongside elite grads working in the area doing very similar things to what many other college grads are doing and have similar incomes.  We  know a couple that both graduated from ivy league schools that were pretty surprised elite schools are not something they could even consider for their own kids as their oldest came up toward graduation last year.   That kid got into one and could not attend.  I don't doubt he will do great anyway.  He's still the same cool amazing  kid.  

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Hoggirl]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I don't doubt companies might have favorite lists especially when hiring brand new grads.  I used to hire in software engineering and our favorite new grads at that time came out of a handful of public tech flagship programs with a BS.  They had the best tech skills plus they were self reliant, motivated, and scrappy.  They needed less hand holding and could run with projects.  If you were a new grad with a BA from anywhere, you weren't hired as a software engineer unless you had worked as one somewhere else first.

But after 2-3 years of base level experience somewhere and a couple professional references I think the schools matter much less.  That is different if companies are looking for particular certifications, licensing or ABET grads, etc.   I also think off the beaten path schools often have better placement services than people know or acknowledge.  We visited several little Midwesestern CTCL LAC's that all placed students in internships and first jobs all over the place.  

I know a family that just uprooted from the Midwest after the dad was recruited HARD to a major company we would all recognize in the silicone valley  after doing his undergrad at a Midwestern LAC and his master's and PhD at a big ten school after a hand full of years of work experience.  He actually is not working in tech either.   I know a 20 year old just accepted to a fantastic law school after doing 2 years of DE and flying in the honors program at our flagship.  We live urban, so I know kids at elites right now too.  The biggest difference between those flagship honors kids and the elite school kids is the ability to afford those programs.  They go to high school side by side.

I don't doubt there are amenities and advantages to certain schools.   I graduated from a big 10 tech program and that was definitely a sink or swim experience.  I think the school works a little harder to make sure students that are admitted have the ability to succeed, but probably not to the degree of a private school.  My kid has a couple apps out to reachy-reachy schools that aren't likely to work out financially for us even if he were to be admitted.  But hey, if it happened to work somehow (DH is the numbers guy so he makes final call) I'd be happy to send him to one of them.   But I don't think it would make or break his life.

My DH and I live in an urban neighborhoood alongside elite grads working in the area doing very similar things to what many other college grads are doing and have similar incomes.  We  know a couple that both graduated from ivy league schools that were pretty surprised elite schools are not something they could even consider for their own kids as their oldest came up toward graduation last year.   That kid got into one and could not attend.  I don't doubt he will do great anyway.  He's still the same cool amazing  kid.  

 

 

I completely agree with the bolded.  I think this is the part that often goes unsaid and is the aspect that rubs people the wrong way the most. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Hoggirl

[...................]

I don't know.  For those that are high income, maybe that's the case.  But those Ivies are mostly need-blind and have huge endowments so that they can totally make up the difference for lower income families.  

That said I am a huge fan of the "Public Ivies" ...they provide an excellent value for the money and have a lot of really neat highly capable young people...in my own home I'm very torn because my son is admitted to, and we are VERY excited about one of those "Public Ivies" and yet he has applied to four private universities that really have special programs/people/internships that are absolutely awesome. Absolutely not just about the name, otherwise he would have applied to all the Ivies....he appled to Carnegie Mellon becuase of their collaborative and non competitive super creative environment of learners....to Columbia because he loves the Classics and would LOVE to the do the Core program, and also would love to start doing research freshman year in computer Science which is unique...Stanford because he'd learn from and be with the best of the best but also it's a fun, creative, unique atmosphere....USC because it has a very well known huge Artificial Intelligence program with people he's been following for years....  so we might just cough up the extra 30 k per year....

[catz]

35 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

I don't know.  For those that are high income, maybe that's the case.  But those Ivies are mostly need-blind and have huge endowments so that they can totally make up the difference for lower income families.  

 

Well as a family that is full pay at every school in the country with a spouse approaching 60, a single income, living in a higher COL area, with another teen coming up to college age, significant home equity and parents who both had life threatening health crises in their 50's I can say not everyone can afford their EFC at any income level.  Not everyone can choke up an extra 30K+ a year and still keep planning for retirement and have a safe amount of savings available for emergencies .   Sometimes 5K and travel expenses are insurmountable for another family when the kid would already need to take out max student loans.  The financial formulas are extremely narrow and there are lots of reasons they don't actually work for real families budgets other than they are just being stingy and cheap.  

We have a neighbor that sent a kid to a need only private this year.  She has max student loans and parents took out parent plus to make it work.  Well parents are approaching retirement age and suddenly one parent needs surgery and what will require significant rehab time.  I'm worried about their situation.  

If you look at the financial data for Dartmouth for example

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/dartmouth-college

21% of their student body is from the top 1% income bracket (> 630K per year).  69% come from the top 20%.  Average family income  is 200K - which means the average family there is full pay or close to full pay.  The bottom would fall out on many of these schools if the student distribution actually was much closer to an average family.  I think need blind admissions policies aren't necessarily as need blind as people assume they are.  There are definitely a small number of elite schools doing a little better than this in terms of average family income, etc.  Which they can because they have larger endowments, etc.  The more generous a school is and can be, the more difficult the admissions acceptance rate.  

Full pay state flagship is what we planned for.  We have a little give and leeway and kid wanted to throw out some long shots.  I can say if we were living in the deep south with the same income, my kid could definitely have more options.  On the other hand, he's had better educational amenities here and better flagship options too.  It's give and take.  

I think it's a mistake to assume if the FAFSA says someone can afford something some number they magically can.  I can tell you the numbers an independent financial adviser recommended for us to plan for vs. what the FAFSA/NPCs say we can afford are significantly different.   The adviser's numbers are actually more conservative than what we'll probably end up spending.  Those formulas can/should be much more nuanced IMO.  And if schools didn't want to "meet need" at least it would be transparent.  I find the marketing more than a little obnoxious how approachable these schools are to everyone.  This is another discussion that never seems to go well on CC.  😂

But the ACT 31+ honors kids at the flagship?  Yep - they're still absolutely "elite" kids doing impressive things.  

Edited March 4, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Pawz4me]

56 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

IThat said I am a huge fan of the "Public Ivies" ...they provide an excellent value for the money and have a lot of really neat highly capable young people...in my own home I'm very torn because my son is admitted to, and we are VERY excited about one of those "Public Ivies" and yet he has applied to four private universities that really have special programs/people/internships that are absolutely awesome. Absolutely not just about the name, otherwise he would have applied to all the Ivies....he appled to Carnegie Mellon becuase of their collaborative and non competitive super creative environment of learners....to Columbia because he loves the Classics and would LOVE to the do the Core program, and also would love to start doing research freshman year in computer Science which is unique...Stanford because he'd learn from and be with the best of the best but also it's a fun, creative, unique atmosphere....USC because it has a very well known huge Artificial Intelligence program with people he's been following for years....  so we might just cough up the extra 30 k per year....

DS23 graduated from a "public ivy." He (and we) couldn't be more happy with the experience. When it came down to it none of us could make sense of spending the $40,000 a year difference it would have cost between Chapel Hill and the comparably ranked private that tempted him. Fortunately/unfortunately, "need blind" didn't make any difference for us.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Pawz4me

[kokotg]

We're in a financial position such that needs met private schools will cost us about the same as our in-state publics (even though tuition is covered at in-state publics through Georgia's lottery funded scholarships), so DS has a lot of good options. Hey--being married to a teacher and having 4 kids is finally paying off for something 😂 . If we made 2 or3x as much money, though, it wouldn't even be a question of whether we COULD afford to send our kids to very selective colleges at full price; we just wouldn't do it because it wouldn't make sense to us to spend $50,000 more a year on one of those schools than UGA's honors program. The very rich have a ton of options; the very poor to lower middle class have a lot of options IF they have very high achieving kids...people in the middle either have fewer reasonable choices or have to think long and hard about how to prioritize limited funds, depending on individual financial circumstances.

[catz]

Oh well 3 public ivies are high on my kid's list, there's a great chance he will end up at one.  One is only possible with music merit (which is a very hard to predict thing - depends on program needs, prof, etc).    The local kids I am consistently impressed with are at one of them.  I guess I graduated from one.

[Hoggirl]

Not everyone has a UNC-Chapel Hill, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Berkeley, UVA, Michigan-type state flagship, though.  Those of you who do are extremely fortunate, and I do think you realize this. 
 

 

[catz]

2 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

Not everyone has a UNC-Chapel Hill, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Berkeley, UVA, Michigan-type state flagship, though.  Those of you who do are extremely fortunate, and I do think you realize this. 
 

 

Absolutely.  And I think the ones that do exist are starting to realize they aren't necessarily affordable and approachable to all incomes levels, but our closest one certainly has some work to do.  I will say our urban CC's are free for 2 years for residents earning under 75K and scale tuition accordingly and 100% credits transfer to the public flagship.  I feel very lucky with our affordable to us options but we can do better too.

 

[...................]

2 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

Not everyone has a UNC-Chapel Hill, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Berkeley, UVA, Michigan-type state flagship, though.  Those of you who do are extremely fortunate, and I do think you realize this. 
 

 

Some of the public Ivies are not much more out of state, than they are in state.  It pays to do the nitty gritty research.  My ds did not want to go to Berkeley, even though it is around the corner.  PennState is only about 7k more per year, and more welcoming to people who are conservative, better/different school spirit.  (aka not likely to get bricks thrown at your head lol) ...  even though that 28 k is still a lot of money, it's still way way cheaper than a private top tier school for full pay people 🙂

[kokotg]

6 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

Not everyone has a UNC-Chapel Hill, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Berkeley, UVA, Michigan-type state flagship, though.  Those of you who do are extremely fortunate, and I do think you realize this. 
 

 

For sure. Before I researched financial aid more, I assumed UGA or GT would be my kids' best options, and I was (and still am) very grateful to know they're there and affordable for us.

[Pawz4me]

30 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

Not everyone has a UNC-Chapel Hill, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Berkeley, UVA, Michigan-type state flagship, though.  Those of you who do are extremely fortunate, and I do think you realize this. 
 

 

Absolutely. I fervently hope TPTB in NC always realize how incredibly valuable the entire UNC system is, and heed the state constitutional requirement that says " . . the benefits of the University, as far as practicable, be extended to the youth of the State free of expense for tuition." Obviously they don't offer free tuition, but compared to many other states we have a lot to be thankful for.

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

I don't know.  For those that are high income, maybe that's the case.  But those Ivies are mostly need-blind and have huge endowments so that they can totally make up the difference for lower income families.  

That said I am a huge fan of the "Public Ivies" ...they provide an excellent value for the money and have a lot of really neat highly capable young people...in my own home I'm very torn because my son is admitted to, and we are VERY excited about one of those "Public Ivies" and yet he has applied to four private universities that really have special programs/people/internships that are absolutely awesome. Absolutely not just about the name, otherwise he would have applied to all the Ivies....he appled to Carnegie Mellon becuase of their collaborative and non competitive super creative environment of learners....to Columbia because he loves the Classics and would LOVE to the do the Core program, and also would love to start doing research freshman year in computer Science which is unique...Stanford because he'd learn from and be with the best of the best but also it's a fun, creative, unique atmosphere....USC because it has a very well known huge Artificial Intelligence program with people he's been following for years....  so we might just cough up the extra 30 k per year....

Meeting need is strictly based on how a university defines need.  That does not mean that they meet need in a way that is affordable.  For example, meet need schools add retirement contributions back into your income as available to pay toward tuition.  For our family that means adding back all retirement contributions from 2007 until 2032.  Thye do not care that we wouldn't have the means to save for retirement.

The formulas are also biased toward discounting overlapping kids.  Families with kids spread apart in yrs pay more for college attendance.  For example, there were quads posting on CC whose family had an annual income of $250,000 with over $1,000,000 in assets.  They all attend the same Ivy for $15,000 each, or $240,000 total.   If those same kids had been spread over 16 yrs, their costs would have been closer to $240,000 times 4, or $960,000.

"Totally make up the difference" is a superficial understanding of how meeting need works.

1 hour ago, Calming Tea said:

Some of the public Ivies are not much more out of state, than they are in state.  It pays to do the nitty gritty research.  My ds did not want to go to Berkeley, even though it is around the corner.  PennState is only about 7k more per year, and more welcoming to people who are conservative, better/different school spirit.  (aka not likely to get bricks thrown at your head lol) ...  even though that 28 k is still a lot of money, it's still way way cheaper than a private top tier school for full pay people 🙂

Where are you getting $7000 difference in tuition?  UCB's IS tuition is $14,000 and Penn State's OOS tuition is $33, 664.  That comes out to a $20,000 difference.  Add in extra costs for commuting, often additional health insurance costs, and attending OOS can really add up. (PSU's site states: Typical Penn State scholarships are between $1,500 to $3,000 per academic year.)

Edited March 4, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[...................]

32 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Meeting need is strictly based on how a university defines need.  That does not mean that they meet need in a way that is affordable.  For example, meet need schools add retirement contributions back into your income as available to pay toward tuition.  For our family that means adding back all retirement contributions from 2007 until 2032.  Thye do not care that we wouldn't have the means to save for retirement.

The formulas are also biased toward discounting overlapping kids.  Families with kids spread apart in yrs pay more for college attendance.  For example, there were quads posting on CC whose family had an annual income of $250,000 with over $1,000,000 in assets.  They all attend the same Ivy for $15,000 each, or $240,000 total.   If those same kids had been spread over 16 yrs, their costs would have been closer to $240,000 times 4, or $960,000.

"Totally make up the difference" is a superficial understanding of how meeting need works.

Where are you getting $7000 difference in tuition?  UCB's IS tuition is $14,000 and Penn State's OOS tuition is $33, 664.  That comes out to a $20,000 difference.  Add in extra costs for commuting, often additional health insurance costs, and attending OOS can really add up. (PSU's site states: Typical Penn State scholarships are between $1,500 to $3,000 per academic year.)

 

I'm including room and board.  We can't commute to any UC's.  The total attendance at UCs is about 35K and our total attendance at PennState is 45- so 10k  difference NOT 20k difference.  Thank you

No one said it was THE SAME.  I SAID IT WAS NOT THAT MUCH MORE. 

Also, I agree that need-blind is nicer in theory than it actually is.  FOR LOW (the key word there being LOW) low income people, they can get most of the difference covered.  Does that help me? No.  Does that help most upper or upper middle class? NO.

I don't know what your point is?  My point is just to keep considering all factors, which I think everyone should do!  I wouldn't want a low income person not to bother to apply to Columbia - they should apply and see what their package is!