Rhetoric versus Lit based writing class

[crazyforlatin]

Dd is now in Lit 2, a literary analysis class, with Lange. Her Lit 3 class is really an AP class if we add the extra 30 minutes. Rather than taking Lit 3 and then taking her AP Lit class the following year (possibility of same material taught), I'm exploring Rhetoric for 9th grade and maybe even for 10th grade. Also, we had a hard time finding test locations for AP Latin, so rather than taking an AP Lit class so soon, I would rather wait at least year before going through it again. 

I’m confused by what a Rhetoric class offers. It's not lit analysis but a writing/oral class based on the art of argument using ancient texts? So this is a different path from the Lit based classes leading to AP Lang or Lit?

Lukeion offers a one-semester class using Corbett. If we take this, we need another class to get a full credit in English. I would have to enroll in their Shakespeare class, but it looks odd on a transcript to not have a full credit of Rhetoric. If DD could take every class at Lukeion she would.

WHA offers 4 semesters but the prerequisite is Logic 1 and 2; both are taught by a new teacher from Cornell, PhD. We've had neither but can enroll in Logic 1 in the summer. If the teacher allows enrollment while concurrently enrolled in Logic 2, the extra student fee would be worthwhile. WHA offers Rhetoric only after their Advanced Composition classes. 

WTMA offers 3 years of Rhetoric.

CRLC offers a one year Rhetoric class without much writing. 

It seems that Lit based writing is more popular. I don't see any Rhetoric classes in our local schools. 

If DD takes Rhetoric 1 or 2 for 9th grade, and will be done with Lit 2 with Lange and has already done AP Latin at Lukeion (which required a lot of writing), are we going backwards or is there something to be gained by taking a different route with this type of writing. I'm just confused by what Rhetoric really offers. And, I'm not sure what the alternative is if I don't want AP Lit in 9th but still want her moving forward with writing which prepares her for college writing. 

 

 

[SoCal_Bear]

Thank you for asking this question. I'm nowhere near this yet, but it has confused me greatly when I read about these courses. Schole Academy also has Rhetoric classes as well. It sounds like both Schole and WHA are emphasizing persuasive speech and writing and a similar sequence of pre-requisite classes.

This is the description from Schole:

High school students enrolled in this Rhetoric 1 course will study and practice the art of rhetoric: persuasive writing and speaking. Using Rhetoric Alive! Book 1—which explores the principles of winsome speech as developed by Aristotle—the course guides students through a study of the theory and application of the essential components of persuasion: the 3 appeals, the 3 types of speech, and the 5 canons of rhetoric (see below). Along the way, students encounter, discuss, and analyze classic examples of rhetoric, spanning from Pericles’s “Funeral Oration” to Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail.” Students also develop their own rhetorical skill through workshops, imitation assignments, and oratory presentations. This course equips students to speak and write persuasively with wisdom and eloquence.
 

3 appeals	3 types of speech	5 canons
Ethos (speaker’s credibility)	Deliberative (exhort or dissuade)	Invention
Pathos (audience’s emotion)	Ceremonial (praise or blame)	Organization
Logos (argument’s reasoning)	Judicial (accuse or defend)	Style
		Memory
		Delivery

Incoming students should have a working knowledge and familiarity with the informal fallacies (a good preparation would be Scholé Academy’s Informal Logiccourse or The Art of Argument text), and an ability to apply the principles of formal argument construction (along the lines of Scholé Academy’s Formal Logiccourse or The Discovery of Deduction text). Students who have additionally completed Scholé Academy’s Persuasive Writing course or The Argument Builder text are also well prepared to embark on this journey into Rhetoric 1.

This sounds similar to WHA's description of Rhetoric and Logic sequence, but this does not sound that similiar to WTMA which seems writing focused.

[Farrar]

I'm no expert in the classical rhetoric path, but I think the skills would potentially lead in just fine for a student wanting to do AP Lang and Comp - not so much for a student wanting to do AP Lit. To be successful on AP Lit, you need to read a lot of literature leading up to taking the exam.

I don't think it would look weird at all to have a half credit course in rhetoric if it wasn't the primary English course. It would be an English elective.

Colleges (at least, most mainstream ones) aren't looking for classes in a rhetoric sequence at all. They are definitely looking for literature.

[MamaSprout]

I think AP Language covers some Rhetoric. I think you could use it as a Speech credit, too, if you wanted.

Edited February 20, 2019 by MamaSprout

[2_girls_mommy]

We did the Well Trained Mind's suggested text for rhetoric at home and are calling it a speech elective on top of a full English credit. 

[crazyforlatin]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

I'm no expert in the classical rhetoric path, but I think the skills would potentially lead in just fine for a student wanting to do AP Lang and Comp - not so much for a student wanting to do AP Lit. To be successful on AP Lit, you need to read a lot of literature leading up to taking the exam.

I don't think it would look weird at all to have a half credit course in rhetoric if it wasn't the primary English course. It would be an English elective.

Colleges (at least, most mainstream ones) aren't looking for classes in a rhetoric sequence at all. They are definitely looking for literature.

If colleges are looking for lit based classes, why bother with rhetoric? Not trying to be flippant, just trying to understand how to fit in rhetoric along with a lit class plus a history class, all having a writing component. WTMA only offers rhetoric for high school writing, so I'm assuming that a student would have to add in their literature class as well. 

Wrt Lukeion, the problem with just a semester of rhetoric and a semester of Shakespeare is that they look like English electives. Are these substitutes for an English class? Or should I still consider a lit class? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SoCal_Bear]

I would think colleges would know think that a Rhetoric class is rigorous and does involve writing. Shakespeare looks like a literature credit. You don't have to do all your English credits as writing credits.

I can tell you that I most definitely avoided the Rhetoric class in college which was well known to be difficult and opted for a Comparative Lit class to satisfy an English credit I needs for General Ed. I did get one credit covered via AP Language & Composition. My husband took Rhetoric and told me that it was one of the toughest classes he took at our U.

[MamaSprout]

Colleges would understand that rhetoric (and speech) are part of an English credit. Most are very flexible what they take for admissions in regard to English credits for high school graduation. Science, not so much. In fact, most would expect a mix of eight semesters of literature, composition and speech.

[Farrar]

If rhetoric is important to you, you should do it for that reason. And you can then make it work for colleges. I think if you did no significant study of literature for all of high school, it would be like only doing chemistry throughout high school. Colleges would be like, um, what is this? But just because nearly all public schools have their college track students doing writing in context of learning about literature doesn't mean you have to take that approach. And combining something like a semester of rhetoric with a semester of lit study totally seems like it equals a normal English credit to me.

With history, colleges don't expect a student to have done anything like the four year history cycle either - but there are lots of ways to credit it and make it work on the transcript that are totally fine. As long as you don't entirely skip literature study, I think take the path you prefer and is right for the student.

[chiguirre]

13 hours ago, crazyforlatin said:

 

It seems that Lit based writing is more popular. I don't see any Rhetoric classes in our local schools. 

 

 

I bet they do offer it as "Composition". My ordinary public high school offered it as a semester elective or as a year long class with Speech for juniors and seniors.

Memoria Press Online Academy separates their Comp classes from their Lit classes. They use their series of Classical Composition which is a 9 level study of classical rhetoric along the lines of what Calbear posted about Schole:

https://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/writing-and-english-grammar/

The high school comp classes do several levels in a year . Comp 1 goes through Level 4: Refutation and Confirmation. Comp 2 covers Levels 5 and 6. Comp 3 does the rest. The classes involve writing a weekly composition that starts as a paragraph and works up to 800 words or so in Comp 2. They aren't standard 5 paragraph essays, they're exercises that practice specific writing skills. They sound a little odd imho, but T says the exercises have helped her writing immensely. The topics they write on don't involve a lot of research beyond reading a wiki about the topic you're supposed to praise or attack if you don't know enough about it from general knowledge. The books and live classes go through a series of steps to produce the weekly exercise. T has found that it's easiest to rewatch the lesson with the book, pause at the end of each section and write her assignment. This takes about 4 hours a week outside of class time and is the only homework they have.

MPOA also offers lit based classes that include more typical writing assignments about the works they've read. Students post 500 word posts to forum about topics drawn from the reading assignments and then respond to another student's post in a couple of paragraphs. They write longer essays a couple of times. There is far less writing than the Comp classes because they also need to read and prepare short presentations on chapters or characters each week.

MPOA can be an English heavy program if you take both Comp and Lit each year. I don't think every student needs this much time on reading and writing if that's not where their interests lay. For a more math/science oriented student, I'd pick either Comp or Lit and call it good. Even MPOA only requires 5 English credits to finish their diploma program. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by chiguirre

[Penelope]

11 hours ago, crazyforlatin said:

If colleges are looking for lit based classes, why bother with rhetoric? Not trying to be flippant, just trying to understand how to fit in rhetoric along with a lit class plus a history class, all having a writing component. WTMA only offers rhetoric for high school writing, so I'm assuming that a student would have to add in their literature class as well. 

Wrt Lukeion, the problem with just a semester of rhetoric and a semester of Shakespeare is that they look like English electives. Are these substitutes for an English class? Or should I still consider a lit class? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The reason to separate Lit and comp/rhetoric is so that you can spend a lot more time on both, read more full length works, and maybe more of a mix of literature and nonfiction in the literature classes, especially if you want to have more of a Great Books focus and coordinate literature with history. It probably doesn’t make sense to do for all four years of high school, though, unless you don’t mind one of your elective credits being in English each year. We managed it for three years because doing so is one of the reasons we wanted to homeschool high school. 

I haven’t had a student take AP English Language yet, but looking at many provider course descriptions and materials from the College Board, there is a lot of overlap with what Rhetoric courses. I would wonder if a student who took a couple of years of rhetoric could self study for the Language exam. I wouldn’t have my kids take Rhetoric and then finish with an AP Language course but rather one or the other. 

Even though colleges are going to look for literature, AP Eng Language, which many college bound students take in grade 11 or 12, focuses on nonfiction. So those students are generally taking a Rhetoric course without a literature credit that year. 

I think those two Lukeion courses are fine for an English credit. If it really makes you nervous, you could have them add a sampling of other English works and include the Shakespeare course as part of a larger credit that you name British Literature. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Penelope

[teachermom2834]

If I wanted my child to take a semester of rhetoric and a semester of Shakespeare I would have them do that. Then I would grant one English credit and call it “English 10” or “”English 11” or whatever. If course descriptions were requested I would explain what made up the English credit. 

My kids apply to state universities where the admissions staff is glancing at a transcript and ticking off four years of English. I’m not going to give someone (possibly a work study level assistant) the task of deciphering what my rhetoric credit is. 

If my kids were applying to highly competitive schools and their transcripts were getting an intense examination I might want to make them look more interesting by listing the specific courses but for simplicity sake our kids have pretty generic looking transcripts as far as the core requirements go. If something extra is on there as an elective I name it more specifically but I want to make sure the four years of English get ticked off correctly. 

I do tend to err on the side of simplicity, I admit. That and doing exactly what I think is best for my dc and fitting it to the transcript however necessary.

[Penelope]

I like that answer, but what if you are doing both? I’m going to start another thread because I’ve been meaning to ask about that here.

[ByGrace3]

This thread has been helpful. I have often wondered about the differences, and how to get everything in. 

My current plan is for dd to continue with logic at Schole (precursor to their Rhetoric). She will take DoD (Formal Logic) for 9th grade, and then their Everyday Debate and Persuasive Writing in 10th, Rhetoric 1 in 11th. I need to figure out how to best cover literature. We will be studying literature along with history next  year, doing a great books study....

[crazyforlatin]

Thanks for all the replies! It's been very helpful in organizing my thoughts. 

Lange is working on her AP Lang course for 2020-2021. But her AP classes are Lit 3 and Lit 4 with an added 30 minutes at the end of each class. So we can't take Lit 3 and then AP Lit without being redundant. So while we hold off on those classes, we don't really have anything else to take except Rhetoric and maybe one of those research writing classes at Lukeion. But we also need to continue with some Lit, reading and analyzing more fiction books, for AP Lit. 

I looked at Blue Tent Lit 2, some overlapping of books, but about the same thing as Lange's Lit 2. 

Could I add one semester of Lit for 9th grade? Is that enough for lit if taking a year of rhetoric?

And, can someone explain electives? For each year, we are supposed to have one unit in science, English, math, history/ social science, foreign language. Anything extra is an elective? 

If this is helpful at all, I don't think DD will be applying to competitive schools. We need merit money and those are available at a local University, mid-tier, but it requires high SAT and maybe even a competitive transcript, so adding in rhetoric seems to provide the rigour and give the added benefit of moving forward with writing. Also DD is an extrovert and is very interested in persuasive speech and public speaking (will take it at cc in 9th). 

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, crazyforlatin said:

 

And, can someone explain electives? For each year, we are supposed to have one unit in science, English, math, history/ social science, foreign language. Anything extra is an elective? 

 

Actually, some of that 5x4 count as electives. Usually schools require 4 units of English and social studies, 3 or 4 of math, 3 of science and 2 of foreign language as a minimum. Most kids get either 6 or 7 or even 8 classes per year with the extras being things like choir, gym, art, typing, etc. DE classes usually count as a whole high school credit per semester course. It's relatively easy to rack up a lot of credits if you use DE or do summer courses. 

If you do 4 years of each of the 5 main subjects with some AP and/or DE, you'll have a competitive transcript.