Building an 11th grade English credit unconventionally

[bluebonnetgirl]

We are fortunate to have a homeschool outsourcing center near us with small classes and qualified teachers teaching a nice variety of high school subjects.

There is a one semester SAT Verbal prep course I am considering for my rising 11th grade son, followed by a one semester Journalism course.   Could these 2 courses combined make up 1 credit of high school English?

He needs the SAT verbal prep course, and the journalism course is to explore this as a potential career field while getting writing in.

Thank you!

[Farrar]

Are they once a week classes? Will the workload justify it? Is this for your main credit or would it be an elective credit in English?

I think it sounds like it could be... but only you know for sure. Typically, a high school English credit would have a literature component and this wouldn't have one. Overall it seems light, but that could be fine - it's okay to have light credits as long as there's enough in there. However, if he's really interested in journalism as a potential career, I'd want to load him up with more English than this for sure. Like, I'd make the journalism class a half credit elective (assuming the workload justifies it) and fold the SAT vocab class into an overall English credit that would also include literature and traditional writing assignments for an English class - just leave it a bit lighter because he has this additional vocab class beefing it up.

[bluebonnetgirl]

The SAT Verbal Prep  class meets one hour a week and the Journalism class meets 1.25 hours a week.   I am guessing there is 2-2.5 hours of homework for each class in addition to the class meeting time.  Each class would be worth .5 credit I am pretty sure.  I am just not sure if they together are enough for an English credit.

I could add a speech class for one semester.  It is also .5 credit.  Does .5 credit of speech count as .5 of English credit? 

If I did this, then would his English credit be SAT Verbal Prep (.5) and Speech (.5)?  And the journalism course becomes a .5 credit elective?

They also offer a year long literature class - but I think this would be overkill and killjoy on top of the SAT Verbal and Journalism class.  I need to keep in mind that this average student is going to be very challenged by his other classes like Spanish 2, Algebra 2, World History, and Chemistry, plus prepping for the SATs.  So I don't want to burden him with a rough year of English.  He is not an academic overachiever.  His real passion is art and drama and I need to leave some time for those too.

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by bluebonnetgirl

[8filltheheart]

I would not give English credit for an SAT prep class or a speech class.I would only classify those as electives.

I would expect a high school English credit to be built around literature and composition.

[Lori D.]

JMO: The Journalism course as 0.5 credit of English would be fine. But because SAT prep is something most students do without counting it as credit -- even sometimes taking a prep course -- I personally would not feel comfortable in counting that SAT verbal as 0.5 credit of English. On a very pragmatic note, 0.5 credit is between 60 (minimum) to 90 (maximum) hours of work; I find it hard to imagine that this prep course will even approach the minimum end of time spent for 0.5 credit. That's 3-1/3 to 5 hours of class time + at-home time per week for 18 weeks.

Instead, I'd fill up that 0.5 credit to make a solid credit of English, I would add in reading/discussing some classic works of Literature throughout the year, or select works of high interest in your DS that have high discussion-ability. Perhaps do a short (1-5 paragraph) written reader response on a 2-3 of the works, and 1 longer (2-4 pages) literary analysis essay on one work, as it fits in with the rest of his schedule and choosing works he esp. enjoyed thinking about/discussing. 

Just my 2 cents worth! BEST of luck with your 11th grade planning. Warmly, Lori D.

[merry gardens]

Counting test prep for English credit happens at public schools.  I recently learned that our local public high school offers a "ACT Test Prep/College Study Skills" as a class in their English department can count towards graduation English credits. In addition to the typical "English 9, English 10, 11 & 12" they also offer "Creative Writing", "Speech" and various Literature classes that all go towards fulfilling our state's graduation requirements.

Seeing how much work you expect the classes to require, I'd suggest the classes be combined and/or incorporated with other work. Mine took a co-op debate class and counted it as part of their English that year but I required additional work in vocabulary and writing. We were using high school curriculum from a homeschool provider in another state that separates "Literature" classes from "English" (rhetoric/vocabulary/writing). It sounds like the three classes you are considering cover vocabulary, rhetoric and writing, which may be enough to equal a full year of English credit. I assume your child will study some form of English Literature at some point during high school. Perhaps literature can be a bigger focus some other school year or perhaps incorporate literature into a different subject such as history.  

  

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, bluebonnetgirl said:

The SAT Verbal Prep  class meets one hour a week and the Journalism class meets 1.25 hours a week.   I am guessing there is 2-2.5 hours of homework for each class in addition to the class meeting time.  Each class would be worth .5 credit I am pretty sure.  I am just not sure if they together are enough for an English credit.

I could add a speech class for one semester.  It is also .5 credit.  Does .5 credit of speech count as .5 of English credit? 

If I did this, then would his English credit be SAT Verbal Prep (.5) and Speech (.5)?  And the journalism course becomes a .5 credit elective?

They also offer a year long literature class - but I think this would be overkill and killjoy on top of the SAT Verbal and Journalism class.  I need to keep in mind that this average student is going to be very challenged by his other classes like Spanish 2, Algebra 2, World History, and Chemistry, plus prepping for the SATs.  So I don't want to burden him with a rough year of English.  He is not an academic overachiever.  His real passion is art and drama and I need to leave some time for those too.

I was cross-posting while others answered and you added this. 🙂

Agreeing with 8FillTheHeart -- if giving credit for SAT prep, it would be an Elective, same as a Study Skills course would be.

Agreeing with Merry Gardens that Journalism, Creative Writing, and Technical Writing are all great options for an English credit, and they are all widely accepted as such. As far as Speech, yes, that can be included as part of an English credit; I see many public school systems requiring 0.25 to 0.5 of 1 of the 4 English credits during high school to be Speech or Public Speaking. So having 11th grade English be 0.5 credit Speech + 0.5 credit Journalism would be fine.

I'll just note that since DS's passions are Art and Drama, it would be very easy to make the other 0.5 credit of English be lit.-based, with reading and watching and analyzing/discussing classic PLAYS. 😀

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I was cross-posting while others answered and you added this. 🙂

Agreeing with 8FillTheHeart -- if giving credit for SAT prep, it would be an Elective, same as a Study Skills course would be.

Disagreeing that only Lit. and Comp. count as English credits. Journalism, Creative Writing, and Technical Writing are all great options for an English credit, and they are all widely accepted as such. As far as Speech, yes, that can be included as part of an English credit; I see many public school systems requiring 0.25 to 0.5 of 1 of the 4 English credits during high school to be Speech or Public Speaking. So having 11th grade English be 0.5 credit Speech + 0.5 credit Journalism would be fine.

I'll just note that since DS's passions are Art and Drama, it would be very easy to make the other 0.5 credit of English be lit.-based, with reading and watching and analyzing/discussing classic PLAYS.

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

 

I agree about the journalism (which I didn't list as not giving credit for, just the prep class and speech), but I don't see a 3.25-3.75 hrs per week of speech course she is describing as being equivalent to an English credit.  That would be a very weak high school course. If she beefed it up and required additional work, maybe. It would really depend on what the course was actually covering.  

[Lori D.]

13 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I agree about the journalism (which I didn't list as not giving credit for, just the prep class and speech), but I don't see a 3.25-3.75 hrs per week of speech course she is describing as being equivalent to an English credit.  That would be a very weak high school course. If she beefed it up and required additional work, maybe. It would really depend on what the course was actually covering.  

Agree.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Lori D.

[Julie of KY]

I think it's fine to give credit for unconventional classes. I do think that a typical English credit also involves literature which isn't part of your plan.

What I usually do in a similar situation is say Engish 11 covers grammar, literature and writing with an emphasis on journalism. I'd add in my own literature with discussions or writing and say in my course description that the SAT prep class and Journalism class are components of my English 11 course, but I don't give separate credit for them. I do this with Brave Writer, Center for Literature, Co-op classes, and other online classes. I just lump it all together as English - list in my course description the pieces that make up my class, and try to make sure I cover all the pieces typically covered in English as well as making sure the workload is justifiable for a credit. Most outside classes that say they are 1/2 credit, don't get that much on my transcript.

[bluebonnetgirl]

I have heard in my area, that the SAT prep courses are commonly used for high school credit as they are quite a bit of work. So a semester of SAT verbal prep would count as .5 English credit. 

I know a lot of you have super academic competitive kids here but my son is an average academic student.  I’m leaning toward a lighter English for 11th grade for my son, as he will be taking a lot of very challenging courses for him such as Chemistry, Algebra 2, World History and Spanish 2.  In addition he will be prepping for the SAT which won’t be enjoyable for him. He did only did “ok” on the PSAT in early 10th grade, nothing close to scholarship worthy, and his scores, if they don’t improve, won’t get him into  competitive colleges.   He will likely go to a community college or a state school.  Sometimes I feel like most of these high school classes for him are like pounding a square into hole.  They just doesn’t fit him.  But he does it because it is required. Sigh.

I wish he could skip some of them and focus on his interests such as graphic design, web design, photography, journalism, creative writing, art, theater, etc.  This is what he excels at but his core classes leave him pretty spent, and leave little time for them.

Edited February 5, 2019 by bluebonnetgirl

[8filltheheart]

I have plenty of avg students. I still wouldn't count what you are describing as worthy of an 11th grade English credit.

One approach you could take is to have him read literature selections over summer as a way to supplement to the speech course. Or swap and have him do SAT prep over the summer.

You are only listing 4 other crs for him next yr: math, history, science, foreign language. Even for an avg student, that is not a heavy load.  If he is not going to require college chemistry in the future, for example, you could possibly have him take a chemistry class that will take him less time daily and allow more time for lit/writing.

[bluebonnetgirl]

He will also be taking art during the school year and an intensive cinematography internship over the summer.  So that is a total of 7 credits (English, Chemistry, Algebra 2, World History, Spanish 2, Cinematography, and Art) which I think is a full load.   And he will be doing theater during the school year where he does read plays.  Wouldn't the plays count as literature?  Probably the best way to get literature into the English credit is to count the plays he will be in and their scripts as literature, especially if we do some in depth discussion about them.  He will of course be acting in them and reciting the lines, and probably have lead roles..  He will no doubt internalize the material that way better than reading anyway. 

[2_girls_mommy]

I think reading plays counts as literature. I even list plays we attend in our literature lists for the year. I will say that nobody ever mentions grammar in high school english courses, but that the state sponsered scholarship program that my kids are enrolled in here lists that an English credit must contain literature, composition, and grammar. I assume that grammar discussion about what they are reading and writing counts as instruction, but we do grammar intensely with Latin and we keep Rod and Staff around and review from it occasionally too. 

[Lori D.]

On 2/5/2019 at 11:38 AM, bluebonnetgirl said:

...a semester of SAT verbal prep... he will be prepping for the SAT which won’t be enjoyable for him. He did only did “ok” on the PSAT in early 10th grade, nothing close to scholarship worthy, and his scores, if they don’t improve, won’t get him into  competitive colleges.   He will likely go to a community college or a state school...

Just a thought: If you are doing the SAT prep course in order to boost to scholarship level of $$, most really good ACT/SAT prep courses can only guarantee a maximum boost of 1-2 points (ACT) or 150 points (SAT), so if based on DS's early PSAT score, if that amount of boost isn't going to push in him to scholarship range, AND, if his strengths and interests are not leaning towards a college degree, or he is more inclined towards a community college... perhaps you don't really NEED to do the SAT prep course at all?

Or, if you were planning to mostly outsource to do a lighter English credit for 11th grade, then I think you could do as Julie of KY suggests, and make 1.0 credit of English on the transcript out of combining all your "odds and ends" (SAT prep course + Journalism course + Speech course + some independent reading of plays or other lit. of high interest). That is certainly workable. You could just call your English courses: English 9, English 10, English 11, English 12 on the transcript, and then list on a Course Description document what the focus was and resources used were for each course. Quite a few colleges never even ask for a Course Description document, and if he ends up going to a community college first and then transferring, no one will be looking at what his grade 11 English course consisted of.

On 2/5/2019 at 11:38 AM, bluebonnetgirl said:

...I know a lot of you have super academic competitive kids here but my son is an average academic student...

Well, just to reassure you, that is NOT me (LOL). Two DSs here, neither of whom were "into" school/academics or were self-motivated. One was a bit above average in academics, and one had mild LDs in Math and LA areas (and strong-willed attitude that was very ANTI-anything-school-like), so a LOT of extra time and effort here on my part to drag... er *encourage* (LOL!) them through a basic set of college prep courses while still giving them time for exploring extracurricular activities.
 

On 2/5/2019 at 11:38 AM, bluebonnetgirl said:

... 11th grade... he will be taking... Chemistry, Algebra 2, World History and Spanish 2...

...I wish he could skip some of them and focus on his interests such as graphic design, web design, photography, journalism, creative writing, art, theater, etc.  This is what he excels at but his core classes leave him pretty spent, and leave little time for them.

Sounds like he will have mostly completed the minimum of credits needed for admission the average university by the end of 11th grade:

4 credits = English
3 credits = Math (up through Alg. 2)
3 credits = Science, with labs 
3 credits = Social Studies (1 credit Amer. Hist., 1 credit World History, 0.5 credit each Gov't & Econ)
2 credits = For. Lang., same language
1 credit = Fine Arts

From your list of projected courses in 11th grade, I would guess that about the only thing out of that college prep list of requirements he would be missing is 1 credit of English, and possible 1 credit of Science (or maybe a specific Soc. Studies credit). That would leave him 4 credits in 12th grade to explore his interests. And if he did all 4 of them as dual enrollment courses at your local community college (ex: Graphic Design, Web Design, etc.), he could take 4 different classes (2 per semester), that would actually come out to a total of *8* credits on his transcript (1 semester of college DE = a YEAR of high school). That would allow him to try out quite a few interests. AND, if you pick the specific courses carefully, they might all line up to be required courses towards an AAS degree in graphic arts or other Associate Degree to work on after graduation. Just a thought! 

Warm regards, Lori D.

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Lori D.

[EKS]

I would call the journalism course an elective and the SAT prep course an extracurricular (an extracurricular in your mind, not on any college applications).  So, I guess the answer is no, I would not try to cobble together a core English credit for an 11th grader with these classes.

[bluebonnetgirl]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their feedback.  I am going back to the drawing board to flesh out another plan.  Thank you for all the ideas.

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, bluebonnetgirl said:

...I am going back to the drawing board to flesh out another plan...

Good luck! BEST wishes and hoping everything all aligns so that 11th grade English is something he enjoys, is not onerous for you, and covers whatever needs to be covered. 🙂 Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Lori D.

[bluebonnetgirl]

Thank you Lori.  You are always so generous with your advice.

I am likely going to scrap the Journalism class for 11th grade, and also maybe even the SAT prep class, instead using Khan and a tutor.

In 9th grade my son had a combination literature/vocabulary/grammar/writing class for 9th grade (English IV at Big River Academy).  He did well enough, and got a solid  A, but some of the literature was difficult for him.  I especially recall the Hobbit and Treasure Island being a slog.    Maybe it is for everyone?  I dunno.  It was for me too, and I read with him.

In 10th grade (present) he is taking a format writing class, and nailing it.  He can express himself well with his own ideas and experiences,  and is carrying a high A.

So, for 11th grade, it probably makes sense for him to focus more on literature, versus just writing or journalism.  In his PSAT, his writing was strong, whereas reading was not as strong.  He has struggled in the past with classic literature comprehension.  He can write well when it comes to his own ideas and experiences, but it is harder for him to understand what I would call classic literature.  I was the same way in high school and college, and I had to rely on Cliff notes for the same.  It did not stop me from getting a higher education degree in a STEM field though, and having a great career.  

If any of you have a good recommendation for a gentle, online class focused on literature with some writing, I would appreciate it.  He does best interacting with others.  A lively, patient, gentle teacher would be best - not so much to explain the writing process, which he is good at, but to help comprehend the literature and help break it down.  Maybe a class where they even read together in class, stopping to go over passages in the moment.    Perhaps a class where the pace of reading is a bit slower, only covering 4-6 books per year instead of so many.  I know it is a long shot, but does anyone have a good recommendation?

I think this might help him even in the SAT.  

Thank you!

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by bluebonnetgirl

[bluebonnetgirl]

Also, the Lights, Camera, Action: An Alternative Course for High School English -  Movies as Literature Course by Open Tent Academy, though not traditional literature, would involve discussion and analysis of concepts and vocabulary using a medium that speaks to his visual brain.    It would also open his mind up to a wider genre of topics than he presently reads or watches.  I know it is only 20 weeks, however, there is work required for the break weeks.   Also ds will be reading several play scripts during the school year and acting in them as well as attending at least 8-10 theatrical productions.   And doing lots of SAT verbal prep meaning reading and analysis of such.

Film/cinematography is a very huge interest for this kiddo.  He may wind up in the field someday and already has some connections and hands on experience.

[JazzyMom]

Your original plan sounded fine to me as  journalism would involve research, writing, and citing sources, and SAT prep would cover grammar and vocabulary.  If you’re concerned about literature, then maybe during the SAT portion you add in 3 books (1 per month) in an area of interest.

I think the most important thing for high school is to do what works for your student.  That’s the freedom we have as homeschoolers.

My oldest 2 dc just completed Engl 1301 at a community college, and they wrote 4 3-page papers, and that’s it.  No reading.  Class met twice a week, but the professor usually let them out of class really early.  This semester they are in Engl 1302 with a different prof who is requiring quite a but more.  There is a lot of variation in workload between different types of classes.  Some require less and some more, but they get equal amount of credit.

[Lori D.]

Ug, just responded on your other thread about the Open Tent alternative English class before seeing your added info here, so you may want to disregard that response... 😬
 

8 hours ago, bluebonnetgirl said:

In 9th grade my son had a combination literature/vocabulary/grammar/writing class for 9th grade (English IV at Big River Academy).  He did well enough, and got a solid  A, but some of the literature was difficult for him.  I especially recall the Hobbit and Treasure Island being a slog.    Maybe it is for everyone?  I dunno.  It was for me too, and I read with him.

The vocabulary and sentence structure of those older works is *hard* -- esp. when also just starting to learn how to analyze and discuss Lit.! Yes, it takes time and repeated exposure to older writing for it not to be so hard. And honestly, in older works, everything unfolds at a much slower pace -- and that is just not going to be everyone's cup of tea. 😉
 

8 hours ago, bluebonnetgirl said:

In 10th grade (present) he is taking a format writing class, and nailing it.  He can express himself well with his own ideas and experiences,  and is carrying a high A.

Awesome! What a confidence boost! 😀
 

8 hours ago, bluebonnetgirl said:

...I am likely going to scrap the Journalism class for 11th grade, and also maybe even the SAT prep class, instead using Khan and a tutor...
...He does best interacting with others.  A lively, patient, gentle teacher would be best...

If he does best with other students and a teacher in a live class setting, then it makes more sense to keep both of these classes as the bulk of his English credit, and then just work in a few works of Lit. in some way. Totally JMO, FWIW. 😉
 

8 hours ago, bluebonnetgirl said:

...If any of you have a good recommendation for a gentle, online class focused on literature with some writing... where the pace of reading is a bit slower, only covering 4-6 books per year instead of so many.  I know it is a long shot, but does anyone have a good recommendation?

Bravewriter's Boomerang book club classes? You sign-up per month and 1 book is covered that month, so that would fit in easily around your other commitments, if doing 4 months of that + the Journalism for your writing and the SAT prep for vocabulary and test prep. This year, Boomerang is doing a number of older classics with harder language, BUT in other years I've seen them do a lot of YA and more contemporary works.

 

8 hours ago, bluebonnetgirl said:

Also, the Lights, Camera, Action: An Alternative Course for High School English -  Movies as Literature Course by Open Tent Academy, though not traditional literature, would involve discussion and analysis of concepts and vocabulary using a medium that speaks to his visual brain...

...Film/cinematography is a very huge interest for this kiddo.  He may wind up in the field someday...

And this works, too. He would get writing through the Open Tent class, and would also get practice with analysis through watching / discussing the movies. I still think this class is "light" -- I think it would be a good idea to add some actual reading (plus discussing & analyzing) beyond just the plays he'll be performing in/watching during the year.

Perhaps read some short stories or a few short novels and put some of that analysis he learns from the movie class into practice with lit? Maybe together pick 4 books of high interest and get a good lit. guide to help you both work your way through each book? Or for one of those 4 books, pick one of those additional plays that he'll be watching and dig deep with reading it/discussing it with a lit. guide?

And doing it together at home would allow you to take as long as you like to fit in around your other commitments... BEST of luck in finding the solution that works BEST for this student for this coming year! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Lori D.

[bluebonnetgirl]

Thank you Lori.  Lots to think about.  

[Farrar]

Adding to what Lori said about those older books being difficult... it strikes me that both the books you mentioned can be considered older children's classics. They aren't the only sort of reading that would push a high school student. More recent classics and much older classics would be really different. There are lots of books that are shorter, more engaging for high schoolers, that can still be part of reading the classics... Animal Farm, Of Mice and Men, Siddhartha, Frankenstein, Candide, Slaughterhouse Five... And there are longer books that are likely to be more engaging to a kid who wasn't so into Treasure Island or The Hobbit... It depends on the kid, of course, but some students are going to be more engaged with all kinds of other books from different periods.

[michaeljenn]

On 2/7/2019 at 6:59 AM, bluebonnetgirl said:

This is exactly what I am looking for as well!  I was looking at the Big Tent Academy English IV class, but I would rather put my daughter in a gentle literature class.  She is doing High School Writing Methods right now, and is doing well, but reading tough works of literature would be tough for her.  She is more of a math student and struggles greatly with reading.  UGH!! Let me know if you find anything!

If any of you have a good recommendation for a gentle, online class focused on literature with some writing, I would appreciate it.  He does best interacting with others.  A lively, patient, gentle teacher would be best - not so much to explain the writing process, which he is good at, but to help comprehend the literature and help break it down.  Maybe a class where they even read together in class, stopping to go over passages in the moment.    Perhaps a class where the pace of reading is a bit slower, only covering 4-6 books per year instead of so many.  I know it is a long shot, but does anyone have a good recommendation?

 

 

 

 

 

[bluebonnetgirl]

Hi MichaelJenn,

Let me know now if you find anything that fits the bill.  The Movies as Literature Class still is of interest to me as some other classes at Open Tent Academy.