Math curriculum for kids who might be under challenged conceptually but whose work is a hot mess

[chilliepepper]

...or at least I think this may be my kids' problem.

My oldest two sons (11 and 13) both make a lot of careless errors; both hate (or at least think they hate) math. We've been using CLE for several years now and though I love love love its methodical, gentle approach, I feel it could be moving a lot faster. With each lesson introducing only one tiny aspect of one concept, and then having endless practice of already-learned concepts, it takes my guys forever to move through the books and they are bored and frustrated. I know I can go through and cross out problems to make a lesson shorter, and then maybe they could do multiple lessons in a day, but 1) I don't have time to do that and 2) they can't wrap their minds around doing multiple lessons in a day, even if half or more of the problems are crossed out.

For reasons I won't detail here (having to do with his age at the time we pulled him out of PS), my 13yo is almost 2 years behind "grade level" in math. I know this isn't the end of the world, but at the same time I feel it's demoralizing for him. He thinks he's terrible at math. I've looked at AOPS's placement test for Prealgebra and plan to give it to him today. I suspect its approach might help restore his confidence in his abilities, #1 because he won't, as an 8th grader, be doing something that's viewed as 6th/7th grade math (there is no "number" associated with Prealgebra), and #2 because the presentation just feels a bit more grown up. However, I know AOPS is marketed to kids who are "high performing," a term I certainly wouldn't use to describe my kids as of yet. On the other hand, I love AOPS's depth---we did BA for one year before CLE so I'm familiar with their approach, but we didn't continue because my guys got frustrated with the more challenging problems. In retrospect, maybe we should have stayed the course with BA and just not stressed so much on the star and double-star exercises.

My 11yo is working at grade level (for whatever that's worth), but he is acutely traumatized by math. It's the result of friction between us regarding his carelessness and copious errors. I haven't handled it well, resulting in meltdowns on his part and an intense dread of math. He has begged me to go back to PS, and those conversations have almost always taken place when it was time to work on math. I believe he may have some kind of learning difficulty, but haven't been able to put my finger on it despite neuropsych testing (including the academic tests) a few years ago which suggested some issues with executive function and social pragmatic communication. Everything was subclinical, and I haven't pursued any therapies and we have continued to struggle. I feel he is extremely bright but uninspired. While he seems to grasp new concepts very quickly, he can't be bothered to exert the effort to execute them accurately. His writing (we do IEW) is atrocious: Penmanship, spelling, mechanics, logical flow...it's all a disaster. While his peers are putting together papers that make sense and beautifully execute IEW's stylistic techniques, he just can't be bothered.

But I digress. 2 separate but similar issues: Older son is demoralized; younger son is traumatized. Both are bright; both (I think) may need to move faster, but I don't want to sacrifice mastery and I want to improve accuracy. AOPS comes to mind for both of them, but I know this community has a wealth of knowledge about a vast range of curricula so hit me with your best ideas!

Oh, I should add: DS1 tried CTC math about a year ago and HATED it. I think he couldn't handle it when he got something wrong, and couldn't have a discussion with the computer about the reason he got it wrong. Discussing it with me didn't help, and he just got angry. He doesn't want to do online math.

Edited January 14, 2019 by chilliepepper

[Farrar]

Hm... so do you think they need a get it done, confidence building program that will let them solidify concepts? Because I think Key to Math is really, really good for that. Also, the MEP 7th-9th grade program is really simple and just hits all the middle school basics. It's geared toward kids who need to spend some time reviewing and looks different from the elementary series.

Or... do you think they need a conceptual challenge? If they're good writers and readers, they might like Jousting Armadillos, which is a pre-algebra program meant for middle schoolers.

I can think of lots of other potential directions. I'm not not totally sure what the cure is. If you think either of them is actually ready for pre-algebra, you can look over the options in the Pre-Algebra Fence Straddlers thread, which is really useful.

[HomeAgain]

This is why we supplement.  I like ds's program well enough - there's a lot of variety, and it encourages exploring topics different ways.  It just gets a little wacky at times  or we need a break.  I use the Life of Fred books to bring in a different aspect.  We're about to switch programs to Gattegno (which goes up through middle school) and yes, I'll still use LoF to get a "break" from the usual work.  For middle school, I have these supplements:
Patty Paper Geometry
This Is Not A Math Book!
Perfectly Perilous Math
....and I'm sure more, I'm just not downstairs right now. 🙂 But these we will definitely be using between Fred books.

Have you done the quiz at the Math Curriculum Selector page?  That might help you narrow down exactly what you want and what might be good options to fit.

[chilliepepper]

4 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

This is why we supplement.  I like ds's program well enough - there's a lot of variety, and it encourages exploring topics different ways.  It just gets a little wacky at times  or we need a break.  I use the Life of Fred books to bring in a different aspect.  We're about to switch programs to Gattegno (which goes up through middle school) and yes, I'll still use LoF to get a "break" from the usual work.  For middle school, I have these supplements:
Patty Paper Geometry
This Is Not A Math Book!
Perfectly Perilous Math
....and I'm sure more, I'm just not downstairs right now. 🙂 But these we will definitely be using between Fred books.

Have you done the quiz at the Math Curriculum Selector page?  That might help you narrow down exactly what you want and what might be good options to fit.

 

So are you saying LOF has been your main curriculum?

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, chilliepepper said:

 

So are you saying LOF has been your main curriculum?

No.  It has been our supplement.  We are currently using Right Start as our main. Next school year we'll be using Gattegno for a base along with LoF Fractions and LoF Decimals.  I set aside an hour for math each day right now.  We do a lesson in RS, move on to a chapter in Fred, and if there is still time, extra RS games.  It's kind of an incentive to get the basic work done if he knows the fun is part of the hour, too.

You can also stretch in the same sort of way with TOPS or AIMS units.

[chilliepepper]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

Have you done the quiz at the Math Curriculum Selector page?  That might help you narrow down exactly what you want and what might be good options to fit.

 

Thank you for recommending Math Curriculum Selector; I wasn't aware of it. I just did the quizzes both for the "Christian" and "secular" varieties. I scored super high for LOF on the Christian side, and something called Harold Jacobs (never heard of it) on the secular. FWIW.

[HomeAgain]

We have Jacob's Geometry.  It's a really good program!  It's what I intend to follow Patty Paper Geometry with.

[Farrar]

We loved Jacob's Algebra. And before my kids were fully ready for it, we did parts of Jacob's Mathematics: A Human Endeavor...

[lewelma]

I was just going to recommend Mathematics: A Human Endeavor. You beat me to it, Farrar. We used it too. Very mature text. Fascinating topics. Not standard do this, then do this repetitive type program.  Deep and thought provoking. You could use it for 3 months solely to bring back the joy, and then use it as a supplement as you start back on standard math.

Ruth in NZ

[Farrar]

Yeah, in some ways the OP's kids sound a bit like one of mine. We spent a year doing bits of easy things like Key to Math and really challenging, enriching things like Mathematics: A Human Endeavor side by side and back and forth and it was a really good fit for him at the time.

[chilliepepper]

Ok, Jacobs sounds like it might be just the ticket! I was wondering...on Amazon I only see a hardcover textbook. Are the exercises right there in the book, or is the a separate work space?

Also: Is there a comparable online curriculum? AOPS looks super pricey. I have one son who is still open to, in fact wants to try online math. 

[chilliepepper]

Oh wait, never mind. I do now see a workbook.

[lewelma]

Be warned, AoPS is HARD!

[chilliepepper]

38 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Be warned, AoPS is HARD!

So...do you think the placement test(s) aren't a good gauge of whether a kid is ready for a given level? My 13yo aced the Prealgebra placement test today, but I did feel it was surprisingly easy.

[lewelma]

I think the placement tests are way too easy.  But have your 13yo try the book for a couple of chapters.  I think it was chapter 2 that was a nightmare for my younger ds. 

[chilliepepper]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I think the placement tests are way too easy.  But have your 13yo try the book for a couple of chapters.  I think it was chapter 2 that was a nightmare for my younger ds. 

 

Good to know. Thanks.

[chilliepepper]

Ok, I'm strongly considering giving Jacobs a try, but wondering if we should do MHE or just go straight to Algebra. I read that the first six chapters are more like prealgebra. Would this be about right for someone who just finished CLE's 600 series, or would MHE be more appropriate?

[Petrichor]

On 1/14/2019 at 10:17 AM, HomeAgain said:

This is why we supplement.  I like ds's program well enough - there's a lot of variety, and it encourages exploring topics different ways.  It just gets a little wacky at times  or we need a break.  I use the Life of Fred books to bring in a different aspect.  We're about to switch programs to Gattegno (which goes up through middle school) and yes, I'll still use LoF to get a "break" from the usual work.  For middle school, I have these supplements:
Patty Paper Geometry
This Is Not A Math Book!
Perfectly Perilous Math
....and I'm sure more, I'm just not downstairs right now. 🙂 But these we will definitely be using between Fred books.

Have you done the quiz at the Math Curriculum Selector page?  That might help you narrow down exactly what you want and what might be good options to fit.

 

I was going to recommend the bolded and similar books. Perfectly Perilous was the only one I looked at (library.) My 9yo DS, who is actually a bit below grade level in math loved it. he didn't know the math involved, but was willing to give it a think. I enjoyed the puzzles too. Murderous Maths was a hit too, but it might be better suited to kids closer to 9. I don't have it in front of me so I don't recall what exactly was in it.

We both like Fred, and I appreciate that it introduces concepts that aren't typically taught at his age level. And it's more story+lesson than practice problems. At least in the elementary levels.

 

Regarding the Christian content in LoF: We're not Christian and still enjoy it. Fred is a 5yo Christian living in the American south. Sometimes the Bible gets brought up, but it took 8 books for him to go to Sunday school (where he learned about how God made bees or something like that.) DS was old enough by that chapter that we took it as a lesson in comparative religion. There was something mentioned in an earlier book that I decided to skip because it felt preachy without really adding to the story, but I don't remember what it was now. Really just a paragraph or so.

 

 

 

Of course, the case might be something totally different with your boys, but I grew up thinking I hated math, and scared of math, while still doing well, but making "careless mistakes." Took me years to realize that in my case, "careless mistakes" equated to mild dyslexia/dyscalcula, mixed with ADHD. I'd get 4 mixed up with f and 5 and instead of writing "8459.034" like it said on the calculator screen (I was in precalc/chemistry by this point), I would accidentally write "8549.054" or when typing stuff into the calculator, I'd type "843*490" instead of "834*590" and get the answer mysteriously wrong even though I understood the concept.

I'm planning to go back to school this year and, reviewing my transcripts and test scores, I should place into Calculus. I'm terrified, but working hard to review and perhaps get ahead before the class starts. And I got a copy of Life of Fred: Calculus so my favorite 5yo (well, so far, he's only 3 days old in the Calculus book, lol) can teach me about something I've been terrified of for over a decade. I will say, there is a ton more practice questions in the calculus book than there is in the book intended for 4th graders.

[Ausmumof3]

My son is similar though not as far behind grade level.  He has enjoyed alcumus especially because it kind of self adjusts to the correct level for the kid.  So it’s less about the grades.  Also he gets great satisfaction out of ranking the problems and the funny little comments and the computer game type aspect of Leveling up strength and stamina. 

It probably won’t solve all your problems but it might be part of the puzzle.

[Coco_Clark]

On 1/14/2019 at 3:08 PM, lewelma said:

I think the placement tests are way too easy.  But have your 13yo try the book for a couple of chapters.  I think it was chapter 2 that was a nightmare for my younger ds. 

 

I just want to reiterate this.  My 11yo son did Beast Academy 3-5, and then tested well into Pre-Al.  Despite being obviously familiar with the AOPS method, it was way too much.  

We've been floundering, tbh, with Khan and Armadillos and Key To's.  He's not quite ready for Algebra.  Yet past elementary math.  

 

[Clemsondana]

I wouldn't recommend AOPS for anybody who makes careless mistakes.  Their problems are very tedious - to practice exponents, you don't just do x^3 * x^4 = x^7, they'll have a couple of numbers to factor, a couple of exponents, some of the exponents will have variables in them, too, etc.  On one hand, it's great practice, and if you can do it, you really understand.  On the other hand, there are 8 ways to make a mistake on each problem.  We started it at an age when my kid made a lot of mistakes, and it was extremely frustrating.  We switched to Jousting Armadillos and it was a great fit.  After doing bits and pieces of that series, we eventually switched back when kiddo was better able to be careful.  We also took some LOF breaks.  Right now we do AOPS geometry some days and LOF Algebra (I think we're on the second book now) other days.  Based on our experience, I'd say that either JA or LOF, or a mix of the 2, would be a better fit for your particular situation right now.  If you decide to do AOPS, prepare to go very slowly.  I sometimes found it hard to figure out what was careless and what was misunderstanding, and when there were a lot of long problems, the number of careless mistakes exploded.  

[Mrs. Tharp]

My oldest son's journey through math has also characterized by sloppy work and careless mistakes I also occasionally did not handle it well. What worked for us was to switch from mostly independent work to working out the problems one by one on a white board. It forced him to slow down and made it much harder for him to rush through the problems or try to guess at solutions. Since doing this, his math work has improved tremendously. We have been very happy with College of the Redwoods PreAlgebra and Prentice Hall Algebra as they are both easy to teach from--the lessons are in manageable chunks and don't require much prep. I've been very happy with the way concepts are presented as well.