Henle 1 and an underwhelmed 12 year old

[Doodlebug]

I'm working Henle 1 with my 12 year old.  We spend a set amount of time on it each day.  DS has a pretty thorough knowledge of english grammar and year two level latin vocabulary.  He has most of his latin noun/verb endings memorized.  However, his ability to work with that information is a real struggle.  I work each Henle lesson with him, with ending charts in front of us for reference, but he won't use them.  He seems to get overwhelmed to the point where endings are too much to think about, so he just takes a stab in the dark with the word order/number.

I should also add that he is in the throes of adolescence, big time.  He's tired, moody, or hungry constantly.  Bathroom trips every 20 minutes don't help... the boy drinks 8 oz of water every 30 minutes.  I'm at a loss...

Help?

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Doodlebug

[blue plaid]

I am sure I am not the best person to respond to this, but since you haven't gotten any other responses ...  My 12 year old son is using Visual Latin -- we both really like it.  I know they have a schedule/chart showing how it can be used as a supplement to Henle, so it might be worth looking into if you are interested in something like that.  The teacher is both clear and entertaining.

[forty-two]

On 9/7/2018 at 7:08 PM, Doodlebug said:

I'm working Henle 1 with my 12 year old.  We spend a set amount of time on it each day.  DS has a pretty thorough knowledge of english grammar and year two level latin vocabulary.  He has most of his latin noun/verb endings memorized.  However, his ability to work with that information is a real struggle.  I work each Henle lesson with him, with ending charts in front of us for reference, but he won't use them.  He seems to get overwhelmed to the point where endings are too much to think about, so he just takes a stab in the dark with the word order/number.

I should also add that he is in the throes of adolescence, big time.  He's tired, moody, or hungry constantly.  Bathroom trips every 20 minutes don't help... the boy drinks 8 oz of water every 30 minutes.  I'm at a loss...

Help?

 

We're using Visual Latin, not Henle, but here's two general Latin things that come to mind:

1) Read through the Latin sentence/phrase aloud at least once or twice, making sure you *understand* what the sentence means *before* you attempt to translate it.  (If once or twice doesn't do the trick, then re-read it very closely, paying attention to the endings and sentence structure, just like you would with a difficult English sentence.  Paraphrase it into easier Latin, or strip out some of the more complex sub-bits, till you get the main idea, and then figure out how each of the rest fits in.)  It's easy, with grammar-translation methods, to fall into the trap of seeing translation as the means by which you figure out what the Latin is saying.  I know I fell into that trap as a Latin student.  I had zero idea what a Latin sentence meant until I'd laboriously parsed each and every word, translated them individually, and then tried to stitch the results together into a plausible English sentence.  Once we got beyond the basics, and cases could be doing multiple things, I had no idea how you could reliably translate - how could you know which possible meaning applied?  It was like you had to know what it meant before you could translate???  Bingo ;).  Translating is *not* how you understand what a sentence is saying - it's how you convey the Latin meaning *you already figured out* into an equivalent (or mostly equivalent) English sentence.  Understand first, translate second.  There's a lot of good advice out there about how to approach a translation, but they all assume that you *already* understand the sentence you are trying to translate.  If you don't understand it, then you aren't ready to translate it.

2) After dd12 has read the Latin aloud and assures me she understands it, I re-read each sentence and then make her orally parse each and every word.  (I jot down the results above the Latin sentences for her - she's already not thrilled I make her do this, and the act of writing is tiring for her.)  For endings that could apply to multiple cases, I have her tell me all the possibilities, and then tell me which one applies here, and why.  We work through the passage sentence by sentence in this manner - she parses everything before she goes to translate.  It's just mandatory, and she moans and groans, but she's getting used to the routine.  I'm trying to help break down the huge amount of fiddly details into manageable chunks. 

FWIW, when my kids are making random guesses because they can't/won't put in the effort to actually do all the hard thinking work, I try to break the task down into smaller steps, and have them do each step individually.  If they baulk at one of the smaller steps, then I break it down even more.  What exactly *is* involved in doing this task?  Let's do each part of it, step by step.  It's kind of me being their brain for them, till they internalize the process themselves.

[mumto2]

We used the MODG study guides with Henle. https://books.modg.org/latin-i-syllabus-henle-first-year-latin-units-1-7. There are several different versions if you decide you are interested.

[Susanna]

My oldest son was a part of Classical Conversations Challenge and used Henle in 7th-9th grade. I am not the most qualified person to respond here either, since I never actually taught Latin. But I will tell you that Henle it is a very hard curriculum (from my perspective at least) compared to other Latin curricula  available). The kids who did well with Henle had a strong grammar background. But even then, it was challenging, even with a very good teacher.  (And these kids were good students with high test scores too). A few years ago that teacher left CC to teach at a different co op and used First Form. We changed as well and liked it a whole lot better than Henle. The videos from Memoria Press that go along with helpful too. After using both, my son prefers First Form.  Good luck with whatever you decide to do. 

[serendipitous journey]

Forty-two's post is just brilliant.  I would look over that carefully. 

And, do consider switching Latin curriculum if you follow that advice and still have misery.  There is a lot to be said for the Form series by MP, but it is just the sort of grammar-based translation Forty-two critiqued above.  I see the value of such an approach as we move forward, and also the limitations. 

Visual Latin is used by folks upthread and might be better.  My older child is using the Oxford Latin program now, switching from MP's Forms series, and it is entertaining and rigorous.  We are supported by online instruction (or will be mid-year: we're catching up right now), however, and I don't think Oxford Latin has all the homeschool helps available that other programs have so it is harder for a non-Latin-knowing parent to teach.

My Ideal Plan for my younger one is to parallel the Form series with work in Oxford Latin/Orberg's Lingua Latina, maybe focusing on the Oxford/Lingua books in the summer, so that he both masters the grammar forms and gets experience reading.  ETA: more realistically: work in the Forms series until he begins online instruction with CLRC.

Edited November 28, 2018 by serendipitous journey

[LMCme]

While CC tends to do Henle really young, it was, as far as I understand, meant as a high-school-level, four-year course.  So if Henle is overwhelming, you might try a different curriculum.  Latin gets overwhelming for younger children when there are multiple parts of the mechanics that aren't totally solid yet, e.g. conjugating the verb, declining the noun, getting the vocabulary, getting the word order, then actually writing all that down.  Spending more time getting automatic with the basics with simpler seat work, as is done in the curricula for younger kids, tends to help a lot.  If you are committed to Henle, you can take him through each sentence step by step -- first vocab for each word in the sentence (complete entries for nouns and verbs, and for pronouns what case the pronoun takes, etc).  Then take him through the verb noting the entire conjugation (e.g. laudo/laudare/laudavi/laudatus would be vocab, then for conjugation you would say first person present active indicative, then 'translate' what that means in normal English).  The verb clues you in to the noun that is the subject, so then jump to that noun (remember you should already have the vocab done for this) and you state that it is singular/plural and what case.  And so on.  But this is a far more teacher driven approach than just sitting him down with a sentence to translate all at once using a grammar table, which is hard even for high school and college students.

[HomeAgain]

We are doing First Form Latin which you may want to look into.  Memoria Press took the first year of Henle and broke it down into the 4 forms so students do all four and move to Henle 2. (Fourth Form uses Henle 1 as a textbook but the other three are a slow, solid introduction of concepts).  If Henle isn't doing it for your son, then the extra practice in the Forms might be a better.  Even just going and solidifying the concepts with First Form before jumping into the book would be a better option.

That's if you want to stick it out with the program.  If not, you have a wide range to choose from as far as programs go.

[2_girls_mommy]

FYI, I discovered last year that Memoria Press has guides for Henle with their style of lesson plans with the daily memory work and plans with a 1. 2. 3. step by step of what to do each day. It could be a help. It still isn't as good as just using the Form Series, but it is better than just tyring to do Henle on your own. If you get your child through Fourth Form, you've done a full 2 years of Latin. My dd got a perfect score on the NLEs partway through Fourth Form, and got a Summa Cum Laude the next year, still not completely finished with Fourth Form before moving through Henle 2 for Latin 3 (and doing well on latin 3 in NLEs that year.) 

My current 9th grader is in the 2nd half of Third Form and will start Fourth Form this year when she finishes for Latin I.  Age 12 is a good time to do First Form. You could get to Second Form at 13 and do Third Form for Latin 1 in 9th and get as far as you could in Fourth Form in 10th for Latin II. 

 

[JadeOrchidSong]

We used Henle 1 for a year. My younger son was 10 and did wonderfully with it. We didn't finish the book. The reason was he wanted a living language. We used both MP guide and MODG. I cried several times because he did so well and I would love for him to continue. Finally I gave up and let him do Spanish on line with Potter's School. 

That aside, I wonder how he is doing now. Being hungry and thirsty all the time and uses th bathroom so often is very concerning to me. How is his weight? Is he gaining weight fine? 

i haven't been on the board for a long time. So you may not have seen  me here before. 

[Doodlebug]

I haven't revisited this post in some time and apologize that I didn't see the responses!

Thank you all so very much.  An update:

Latin is much better!  We stuck it out with Henle.  I believe we had a combination of issues going on that had nothing to do with latin.  Adolescence, confidence issues from a not-so-great prior school year, etc.  This resulted in school avoidance (the water/bathroom trips).  I was able to arrange latin tutoring for both of us and our tutor cuts through the overly prescriptive aspects of Henle.  But, she does exactly what forty-two suggested... We orally parse every single word in a sentence.  That work has really paid off.  DS can reliably check his translations with the answer key and nails them.  Huge confidence boost there.  Where he feels competent, he engages eagerly.... getting there just took time and support.