Stuff on teaching reading

[Lecka]

That’s great!

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

Right now my son likes Henry and Mudge and Owl Diaries.  

The "Henry and Mudge" series looks nice Lecka, and Cynthia Rylant is a well known author. I'm sure you are getting a great deal of pragmatics out of those!

As a progression from those, if your son likes Rylant's writing style, you could look at her "Lighthouse Family" series. My oldest loved those when he was younger! We had the opportunity to discuss things like how some families come together through adoption etc. She has added some more titles to the series, I just noticed. You just reminded me to add them to our collection for my youngest ☺️!

Great job following your son's lead!

Edited September 3, 2018 by Guest

[PeterPan]

Well it took me a while, but it finally came together. I got the level C HN Sound Out phonics readers, because those will be at instructional level, and I got the workbooks to go with them, again because I'm working there at instructional level. Then I got a mixture of the level 1 and level 2 fiction and non-fiction options because that gives me a way to get to 3-4 assigned books a week without any trouble. 

I made a list of books that are sort of the sequels to place a 2nd order later, once we burn through all that. I like that it gets me in a nice progression and is pretty much idiot-proof. I know he can do it, so it's just a matter of providing enough support to keep him chilled and get him there. And with this much effort, we're bound to make progress.

So there, misery over, High Noon order placed! Now if only my glasses were so easy, lol. Thanks for the tip on the level 2 readers. That was really the hold-up, because I wasn't seeing enough at level 1 that seemed right to me. I wouldn't have jumped to level 2 on my own, but clearly the data supports it. I think it's just more my worrywart/anxiety thing, that I thought I needed to start with 1. But starting with level 2 gets him into writing he'll enjoy more, and it's still on-level for him. I think on the level 1 I went with The Heights (which has 3 or 4 sets, wow) and Leela and Ben. For the rest I went with level 2 (Pets Rule, It's All True, Trailblazers). My later list is:

The Heights 2

It's All True 3

Mountain Men

Secret Spies

DC Comics Flash

Odd Jobs

And then, if those work out, which just conceivably keep going through levels. It's sort of stupid expensive, but it's idiot-proof and something I know can get done. 

[PeterPan]

I started some visualization stuff with him today. We had dabbled before, but it seemed like the language was holding him back more than the concepts. Now that he has the language, it's looking like he can actually visualize pretty well! We started with single object pictures and did single words which we then tried to build into a couple nice sentences of description. He's going to be at that stage a while, but that's fine. At least he can. If we can get the visualization going, it both is useful for expressive language AND for reading comprehension. Then it would just be a matter of pausing to engage, notice, and make mental images to improve inferencing and comprehension. I'll probably fast-track visualization while we wait for our reading materials to come. Gander Publishing sent me a book with an order, so I have some paragraphs, etc. to use for it too.

[Lecka]

That sounds like it is going great!

For my son I think visualization is a stronger skill, and matching it to language is the hard part.  The expressive language sounds really good.  

The HN books sound good!  I hope they are a hit ?

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

That sounds like it is going great!

For my son I think visualization is a stronger skill, and matching it to language is the hard part.  The expressive language sounds really good.  

The HN books sound good!  I hope they are a hit ?

Yes, I was talking with my little 4 yo great niece tonight, and her ability to describe something (movement, color, mood, etc.) was amazing! I was ticking off the V/V cards in my mind as she told me about kittens.  So yes, it takes language and then it means getting that language from the folder in the brain where descriptions are over to another folder where he's actually USING them and building sentences with them. In that sense, EET is even farther along, because it's seeing how you could use that to build paragraphs and fuller thoughts, sure. But right now we're just working on that crunchy level of words and letting it build. He at least HAS the words, but he hasn't necessarily tried to do this on his own. And yet, there you see, a 4 yo just does this naturally in conversation, offering it up! It's really quite charming.

Yeah, I hope he likes 'em too. Obviously I don't know, and in a way it doesn't matter. I'm getting them as work. The CYOA are his pleasure books, and everything else is just work. And if work is hard, then it's hard. I can't make this juicy easy. I can give him all the pieces, but all the intensive stuff and going forward stuff has been work and hard work. I can't make it not be that. All I can do is make the steps super small. But when we're not actively working on moving forward, he stagnates. It's not like I can just stop and he'll go forward. He does not acquire language and does not acquire reading without active, direct intervention. Even if he doesn't like the books, he'll have to read them, because they're what I've chosen to have him work through to get his skills going forward. What he does for pleasure is his own business. I know that I have my bases covered enough that there's nothing unethical about me compelling him to read these and using behavioral techniques to make it happen.

[Lecka]

I wouldn’t say I use behavioral techniques right now, but I do tell my son it’s time to read with a choice of books ready, and then he can do it then or after 10-15 minutes, and then he does it or he can’t watch tv or play on the computer until he does it.  I would like him to do 15 minutes but if I can tell he is having a hard time I stop pretty soon, before he is frustrated, and then either I read some (to get to an easier part in the book), or he can just be done for a while.  

That’s where we are right now.  He almost always comes to read the second time I tell him, and then has a pretty good attitude.  If his attitude is not so good I get out easier books or start with reading to him, or just read most of a page and then just have him read a sentence here or there.  

Oh, he does get lemonade or fruit punch or something like that, that he mainly only gets while he is reading or listening to a book.  If we have any treats he can have a treat also.  

When it gets cold we will probably do hot chocolate.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Lecka

[Lecka]

The language stuff sounds great!

[PeterPan]

Yeah, before (with the F&P readers) we were reading before bed, which was cuddly and sweet and natural. If I'm coming at him during the day, it's worksheets and work, work, work. I subscribed to a STEM kit club on amazon, so a kit comes each month for us to work on. I'm not sure how I'll arrange it when the new books come. We'll just see what they look like and see what makes sense. I saw a picture on a FB group where someone had made a choice board with reading locations, and I thought maybe we could have something like that (assuming I'm really industrious!) and make our choices at the beginning of the day for where we want to read, and then we'd just point at the choice board and go to the ones we marked. 

At least that was my vision, lol. Sometimes I have a gap between vision and reality. Still, I think some intention can be good, like getting it preplanned in his head that he plans to read somewhere today and that he has some places he likes to read and these are where they would be and that he could be intentional like that. We might play with it a bit and talk about his favorite places to read.  Dd used to read with a kitten, and we would set her up with a bin to put the kitten in and they could be together while she read. 

I'm thinking out loud here, but now it strikes me those are all read independently, not quite read with Mom. It may be a while before he's ready for read independently very much. In theory he can, but it might be a while. It will probably be read with mom. We'll see. But to get it up to 3-4 times a day, that will be the trick.

Edited September 4, 2018 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

I have done a lot to try to fade my proximity during reading.  I am trying to get him to do independent work such as a math paper.  It has not worked with a math paper, but I can be in the kitchen while he’s at the dining room table while he reads.  I think if he is reading with you well, then you can try stepping away from him.  Or move from next to him, to across from him.  

There is a whole thing of “fading proximity support” that I am really in to ?

[PeterPan]

Well the High Noon level 2 tm came, and it's as good as I could have hoped! I ordered the student text to go with it, because that has the reading passages. The comprehension strategies are strong and very explicit. I think it will be a nice nice step. Until the rest of those things come, I have a stack of the Reading Reflex volume 2 readers to try on him. He doesn't think they're going to be fun, but we'll see.

[Lecka]

Awesome!

[Lecka]

For us, AAS 1 is still going great, but slow.  The phonics review is definitely helping him, writing/spelling words is helping him.  He is reading out loud from Owl Diaries #3.  Somehow I am reading him two books, one from Magic Tree House and one from Eerie Elementary (from Scholastic Branches).  One is in the kitchen and one is in his bedroom.  

[Lecka]

https://www.themeasuredmom.com/when-kids-cant-remember-what-they-read/

I just looked this up... last night I had my son read a page and a half or so of a book I am reading him.  He sounded pretty good and he laughed out loud at one point.  Then when I asked him what was funny, he couldn’t remember.  He couldn’t remember anything he had read.  

He used to be like this more, he could understand individual sentences, but then he wasn’t keeping track of them.  

Now he can do it with listening up to a certain level, and I know he can do it with reading at a certain level, but there is a gap for sure.  

I don’t agree this should be called wordcalling, in the blog post, because if her son sounded good reading I bet he did understand as he read it.  I think of wordcalling as the child not even knowing the meaning of words that are read.  But I’m not sure how it used used.  Anyway, I will be watching out for this.  

It’s one of those things I have heard of, but I’ve never personally seen it.  My son has good comprehension of this book when I am reading it to him.  

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

https://www.themeasuredmom.com/when-kids-cant-remember-what-they-read/

I just looked this up... last night I had my son read a page and a half or so of a book I am reading him.  He sounded pretty good and he laughed out loud at one point.  Then when I asked him what was funny, he couldn’t remember.  He couldn’t remember anything he had read.  

He used to be like this more, he could understand individual sentences, but then he wasn’t keeping track of them.  

Now he can do it with listening up to a certain level, and I know he can do it with reading at a certain level, but there is a gap for sure.  

I don’t agree this should be called wordcalling, in the blog post, because if her son sounded good reading I bet he did understand as he read it.  I think of wordcalling as the child not even knowing the meaning of words that are read.  But I’m not sure how it used used.  Anyway, I will be watching out for this.  

It’s one of those things I have heard of, but I’ve never personally seen it.  My son has good comprehension of this book when I am reading it to him.  

I agree that it's different from what Cartwright describes as word callers. Those are kids who decode but aren't comprehending. What you're describing is what my dd with ADHD-inattentive would do, especially if she was not engaged, but also just in general. I think you (at least) have to factors going on. One, when they read they have to attend. If they don't actually use the part of their brain to attend, they won't remember what they read. So your strategies for comprehension and attention (active listening, pre-reading, increasing engagement by talking about the subject first, etc.) can help.

But also your other issue is whether they can actually GET OUT what they read. That's your combo of EF (pulling the main ideas or interesting details, arranging them into a sequence, etc.) and expressive language (actually forming it into sentences and getting it out). My dd would/will do the I don't know, and what it meant for her was that it was too hard to stop and get everything that was in her brain visually and conceptually into sentences and actually SAY them. Huge gap. And now that she's older (19), she's done some research and realized she has synesthesia. She's literally seeing concepts as colors and words as other things that she has to translate into words which she then has to motor plan to get out. End result? One psych who saw her was like dang why weren't you ever diagnosed with SLD Writing??? Makes it crazy hard. She can, and sometimes it goes better than others, but it's wicked hard. At least she's now old enough to advocate and figure out WHY.

So I would never assume he's being bad and I wouldn't even necessarily assume it's simple. What we used to do with dd are some of your word retrieval strategies, and they are your in-between steps, steps you'll see when people are working on comprehension with retelling. You can make popsicle stick figures or clothespin figures of the characters of the story. You can read a section and pull down tiles or use colored post-it notes to hold visually what happened. So with that, maybe read the section for pleasure, then reread together to practice the comprehension strategy. He may need even more support, like the sentences for the summary there and he just works on ordering them. You had asked a while back for things to do. I spent quite a while doing sentence strip sequencing with my ds. You could make strips to sequence. You could make them and hide one (as he gets better obviously!) and see if he can figure out what is missing! Once he has the strips in order, then he can do a nice retelling.

I would not expect anything for language, expressive language, during a retelling that you have not taught explicitly or heard in other settings to know he has. Otherwise you're doing two hard things at once. My ds *just* had a growth spurt, and he has started making dialogue for his animals. Like he'll say "Cuddles, do you want to go to therapy today?" and it's really cute. But I listen for these things, because then I know ok these structures are ready to be expected in a narrative. I don't think we actually worked on that. I think it just came. We'll take it, but still. So like if you want a bit of description or active verbs or whatever to be able to tell the story, you may need to preseed that language or put it on slips of paper in front of him so it's on his mind. And really, it's NORMAL to do that!!! If you look at something like Writing Tales 1 (which is brilliant, beautiful, love it), they're going to have kids doing key word outlines through level 1 AND half of level 2. So that's saying that totally NT kids in 3rd-5th gr are still benefiting from supports like that. It's ok to use them, and I would find some simple ways to do that. 

I can also tell you that in one of the summarizing workbooks we used, searching for key words in each sentence or paragraph and then using them to make sentences for summarizing was a key strategy. You might even like to find a workbook like that. They started with just they key word task in fact, just to kind of plant the seed that some words would do that for you and that you could notice what they are. Like you could read a short bit of non-fiction, something like a paragraph on how a seed grows, and then find the key words. Then YOU could do the retelling from the key words and over time fade it over to him. It's ok to bring in a LOT OF SUPPORT like that.

This could also be a time where you decide to being using some story grammar terminology. So instead of asking him what happened, you might ask what the main character's PROBLEM was. She had a problem, what was it? And did she have any ideas on how to solve it? Did she make a plan? You don't have to hit every single thing. You could just do one aspect. You could just make a mental picture together of the character and then talk about how he visualizes them. Was he tall, short, fat, energetic, what was he wearing, etc. Where did this happen? And that's the kind of thing where it's not too threatening if it's just one thing. You could write cards with your questions and draw to see what each of you will answer. You could do it ahead so he has in his mind what he's going to talk about afterward so he's actively reading and thinking about it and monitoring his comprehension. And if he needs to go back and reread again, no biggee. It's normal to need to go through the passage 2-3 times before being ready to discuss. A lot of curricula will do something like having the student read silently first and then aloud together. If he's to where he can read AND comprehend and be ready to discuss, then cool, fine. Maybe just having the question ahead will help.

For my dd, that's actually an accommodation from the psych for her that she was to be given discussion questions ahead. That was how we started our journey and how she got so righteous about her self-advocating. I signed her up for a free online class with MP (memoria press) one summer in lit and and told her these are your accommodations, you're going to use them, and he's going to give them to you because it's the law and you have the documentation. So she learned it was OK to ask for accommodations, to use them, to let what you are show. If you just ask her a question on the spot, she sometimes totally shuts down. Between her low processing speed and her difficulties, she can totally shut down and stammer and have NOTHING, absolutely nothing. So these strategies and accommodations can be really essential! Oh, and for the class, the teacher was awesome. He just decided good for the goose, good for the gander, and made a list of discussion questions for each class ahead and gave them to ALL the students. And I think he really banged it out too, like he made sets A, B, C so students didn't know which set they'd be in, blah blah. So as long as she prepared and prethought, she could get out her thoughts. And now stuff like that has become the norm on college campuses. She can see all the syllabii before she signs up for a class, gets class powerpoints ahead to prestudy them and preload the language to help with the processing, etc. It's more work and not necessarily what everyone needs, but it's easy to get now. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Total aside, but I was working with ds last night on some language worksheets (because we need to get back in the groove, oy), and I was surprised how well his reading was doing. He's actually a fuzz more fluent and cordial and easy than he was. Remember I had him reading everything on the pages this spring/summer during our major language push, and at the time it was like ok, deep breath, you can do this, and just the fact that it had reading was this huge deal for him.

So I don't really know what that is. He definitely had a growth spurt this summer, because he got 3/4" taller! He'll turn 10 soon. Maybe it's just kinda coming together. I was just pleased to see that he was more fluent and comfortable. I don't think his RISE scores were a fluke, is what I'm saying. I think he's actually functioning at that level. Some things we had been using are starting to seem easy, which is really good too! And where before I was having to prompt for a complete sentence every. single. time. now he just offers them on his own and has even because to use appropriate phrases and natural shorter responses. So they're not single words but shorter responses that would be natural. This is really good! 

So I don't know if that's the new therapies we're getting or the growth spurt plus the language push or ALL of it just coming together. I'm really liking his new SLP btw, the one working on language. She's actually sort of phenomenal in her own ways. She's really putting it up. She has BA and MA in english AND her SLP stuff AND even a dab of PROMPT training. The english degrees really push her to the next level, because her language with him is BRILLIANT and beautiful. Ds has always had 99th percentile vocabulary, and it's actually hard to find somebody ready to meet that and work with that. A person's MLU actually reflects their education (except on me because I'm a hack, haha), so you get these higher IQ, super smart people, and they're just able to go in and model beautiful language. He comes out of there finally using really good sounding language. I'm super over the moon about it. I'm not saying she's the be all, end all for EVERYTHING, but she's really doing what we need. 

So that SLP is gonna tackle the Color My Conversation kit. She was kinda cracking up because the kit starts off saying how you'll love it, this is open and go, just pop in the cd... and then the file is 258 pages!!!  LOLOLOL She's like that's NOT open and go. I'm like yup baby, that's why I didn't get it done and why you're getting paid to do it.  So I go get a massage and walk and shop and she gets to sweat over long files and use her beautiful MA in English language to get my ds' conversation shot to lands unknown. I'm ecstatic. 

I totally flipped him out last night, btw. I was using the No Glamour Sentence Structure pages and decided to kick them up a bit, because it was obvious he was ready. I had him go through the set of ten 3X, first straight using the pictures, then adding description expansions (the fat white polar bear...) then adding because. He wanted to give these really boring becauses, and I wanted some social thinking, some inference, a smart guess. Well that totally pushed him! So of course we'll support and keep working to get there, but my point is it's really hard to expect something in reading comprehension, in narrative, when they can't even get it out at all. So he gets "because" but only at the most simple level.

We'll get there. It takes a lot of stress off me to have someone doing such a good job and a stack of people working so intensely with him. He comes out really energized and invigorated with his language. He has to destress a little and there are challenges, sure, but overall the effect is good. Someone was telling me that's because they're a stack, that it's different if you're there all the time and things get sorta lackadaisical, that the therapists really pull it out when it's stacked like this and you're private pay coming in. I don't know. I just know right now it's good and that the school might be fine but that I can't spend four hours a day driving every day of the week. For right now, this is really good and it's lowering my stress to know he's got really high quality interaction. It's the type of interaction we wanted from in-home workers but couldn't get. And I've been through lots of therapists too, trying to find people who were kick butt. So for right now, we've got it, which is good.

[Lecka]

He couldn’t tell me one thing.  He is very able to say one thing that happened.  I think it’s too hard.  I will have to think about if he is attending/engaged.  He may need more support for that.  

[Lecka]

The new speech therapist sounds great!  I’m glad things are coming together ?

[PeterPan]

Someone posted this study on reading rates and comprehension. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022219417691835  For my ds, as now a 4th grader by age, anything beyond 90 wpm isn't improving comprehension. I guess we could say the flipside is if he's not at 90 wpm then working on it would correlate to improved comprehension, hmm.

[Storygirl]

How reading rate compares to comprehension is interesting.

DD13 (dyslexic) has a slow oral reading rate -- about half the WPM of typical peers, 60 instead of 120 -- but when tested by the NP, her comprehension was in the 99th percentile. But she is very quick to pick up on inference and context clues. She can anticipate the meaning of the passage by intuitively knowing what is coming next in the sentence.

This made learning to decode difficult for her, because she was a champion guesser and didn't want to slow down and work through the words.

DS14 has a slower rate of reading. I don't have the data for that off the top of my head, but I can just tell when listening to him. His reading issues are the opposite of DD's, in that he reads the words on the page but doesn't interpret the meaning as he does so. The article Lecka listed called it word calling, and his previous school called it "drive-by reading." He reads in order to get through it, so his goal is to get to the end of the passage. Just to get to the end, not to think about it. He just wants to get it over with, so he just plows through it.

Each can rush impatiently through reading a passage, but for different reasons. DD13 can tell what's coming up and tends to skip words and want to jump ahead and will mispronounce or guess at words if not required to slow down and decode. DS14 will methodically read every word like a robot.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Each can rush impatiently through reading a passage, but for different reasons. DD13 can tell what's coming up and tends to skip words and want to jump ahead and will mispronounce or guess at words if not required to slow down and decode. DS14 will methodically read every word like a robot.

That's so interesting! And it sounds like neither of those would be improved by working on reading speed. Well maybe your dd would if it were with totally controlled text, but your ds definitely would not be. 

For my ds, in reality reading aloud is going to be affected and at some point limited by his apraxia. It's not really sensible to push that, and it's interesting that your dd was having stellar comprehension in spite of it. 

[Lecka]

Okay, I thought hyperlexia and wordcalling were the same thing.  Hyperlexia can mean different things, too, but I mainly have heard it used for kids who don’t necessarily know them meaning of words they read, don’t know the meaning of sentences, etc.

I think it’s different from mostly understanding as you read through, but then not thinking about it and remembering it.  

I have seen with reading aloud, it is much easier for my son to make connections from one part of a book to another, if the book is shorter.  Or, if he needs to connect to something that just happened within 2-3 pages.  If something connects to something earlier than that, he won’t make the same connection that he would make within 2-3 pages.  And then he can get it (for a lot of things) if I go earlier in the book to the relevant passage.  

I feel like it is a cognitive load issue for him to some extent, that there’s too much for him to keep track and remember, and then he can’t make the connection. 

 

[Lecka]

I looked back at the linked article, and my take-away is some kids are having problems with reading comprehension for reasons besides reading too slowly.  That makes sense.  

 

[PeterPan]

I don't think "word callers" is a precise diagnostic term, just the name of the book and a term the author, a researcher iirc, coined. In the book she spends chapters on contributing factors.

When people saying hyperlexia, they're usually being pretty tight and referring to reading without comprehension due to language issues. I don't think word callers necessarily are diagnosed with those autism-level language delays. The word callers are having issues with processing for meaning and orthography at the same time, issues with language aspects like jokes and multiple meanings, etc., but they're not all the way to that hyperlexia situation where there's literally NO comprehension. But yes, you'd have people with autism who are word callers and people with autism who are hyperlexic. 

Ds was functionally hyperlexic when he learned to read, and as we bumped his language he just has these word caller components, where he still needs work. But it's not the same degree. He blew through the processing exercises in WC with just a few repetitions. I don't really have data or anything to say whether it HELPED anything or not to do those exercises, but it certainly didn't hurt. It was definitely curious that he struggled so much to do the processing for meaning and orthography at the same time.

Oh, and WC to the author seems to be an EF issue, a form of rigidity, where I think traditionally hyperlexia is considered due to severe language issues, often in autism.

[Storygirl]

I haven't actually heard the term "word callers" before, but the list of strategies that the article includes are things that are helpful to DS14. Though he won't do them on his own, only when instructed to.

[Lecka]

I think it is from before there was much knowledge about how to improve reading comprehension.  

It’s also in kind-of anti-phonics stuff, saying focusing only on phonics will “turn out word callers.”  Things like that.  It doesn’t sound very nice when it is used that way.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I think it is from before there was much knowledge about how to improve reading comprehension.  

It’s also in kind-of anti-phonics stuff, saying focusing only on phonics will “turn out word callers.”  Things like that.  It doesn’t sound very nice when it is used that way.  

Oh yeah, it's all stupid. On these lists I'm on they'll just say phonics and not distinguish a more thorough implied phonics (say the BJU) from crap not really phonics (Richardson/RISE where they study the beginning and end and GUESS) vs. explicit phonics (anything OG-derived or influenced). It's just utter stupidity and arrogance. And the fact is, so many more kids are struggling from not being taught explicit phonics than they are from all these other additional factors. And the additional irony is that if they ACTUALLY TAUGHT explicit phonics in some fashion, then the kids from the disadvantaged situations could read and build up their language bases, not needing these intervention efforts.

Think about it. How many homeschoolers on the board ACTUALLY struggle to teach our kids to read? Almost none. Thousands of homeschoolers do this every year, but still the ps perpetuates this myth that reading is hard and complex. No, they just teach the most egregiously ineffective ways and then have kids who aren't moving forward on language or reading, meaning they then have double/triple deficits.

It's all why JW, in the beginning of WTM, was so emphatic about reading being EASY, that it's not that complicated. She was pushing back against the system. 

[PeterPan]

Well ds blasted through the volume 2 Recipe for Reading readers tonight!!! I was actually surprised that he could turn it on and work so hard. He had some apps he wanted, and the total cost was $20, which I told him he had to earn by reading. (They're some kind of package, so a $17 app bundle and a $3 app.) So with such terrific enticement, he could turn it on! 

I stayed with him the whole time and asked him questions to make sure he was turning on his brain and engaging and thinking. Like I'd ask if he knew someone like the character or if we had birds like that where we live or get him to make predictions or inferences or... It was really good. The books lot longer in structure (smaller pictures, more text on each page), so that was really good too. I need to get volume 3 next. I think it would be really good for us to do those and finish that sequence then go into the HN reading. The HN2 reading won't have any picture support at all, so I'm hoping the R4R volume 3 books will get us to that.

The HN visualization book came and it looks terrific. It uses selections from the HN hi-lo readers. Utterly worthless on the instruction part, no help there at all compared to the thoroughness of V/V, mercy. But I guess if kids don't have language issues then maybe they won't need the prompts to explain what they're visualizing.

I think the CYOA books come this week, so that's exciting. Given what I saw today, I'm thinking he may burn through them, hehe! He even tried reading upside down for the jokes in one of the R4R readers. He struggled a little bit with the limericks in that book, because they rely on rhythm. He wasn't terrible, but it's definitely an area I could work on a fuzz more.

Oh, so he had already read 5 of the R4R readers, so he read *13* tonight!!!! Woo-woo!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I didn't keep track of time, but I suggested to him that it had to have been at least an hour and that READING MORE would make reading easier for him and that we'd be pushing up to have him choosing to read 2 hours a day. He didn't say much to that, but I think he could get there. He wasn't exhausted or anything from this. He's fine and he's ready. He just didn't know it. I also gave him a bit of l-tyrosine today, which may have helped. It bumps attention. Too much and it counteracts the 5HTP and we have problems again. Just with a dab though, he seemed good and a bit calmer and more ready to attend. He even had this extended conversation with me ABOUT attention in reading, if you can imagine. He volunteered that he could tell when he was reading and thinking and when he was reading and NOT thinking. I asked how he knew, what he could do to be able to attend more when he reads. He said he had to slow down, which of course he doesn't like either. I told him that reading MORE would probably speed up his reading and that he'd get to where he could read quickly AND attend AND have it be comfortable. I think he will.

I think at this point he just have to have materials that make it easy to put in the time. I can't remember what I ordered from HN, but hopefully the books will be adequate. The R4R books at the end had some non-fiction fact boxes blended in, which were a really nice bridge to reading non-fiction. That blew his mind to realize he'd ENJOY reading those, and you could tell they made him think. Now all these R4R readers are single syllable. We'll see how that goes. I'm pretty sure some of the hi-low readers I ordered were level 1. I think we just have to be very careful with the level and ease him in...

[PeterPan]

I don't think I'm going to order the volume 3 R4R readers. Language looks too hard.

[PeterPan]

What I was thinking about though was whether he's at a point where I could actually use a normal reading curriculum with him. I don't know. I'd have to look at it. Might not be worth it. I was thinking the BJU, and I was thinking of it for the discussion questions. I'm just thinking out loud here. I'll have to look at it and see. I was looking at their math today thinking he'd fly through their math 3 and 4 now, maybe even having 5 be at instructional level, so then I was thinking I could throw the reading in the order. But that might be nuts. And there's a sense in which too much curriculum might hold him back by making us too busy or keeping us from real stuff.

[Lecka]

Awesome reading!  

[Lecka]

I have an opinion about a reading curriculum.... I don’t think you’ve found his level.  He’s making really good progress with what you are doing.  It’s hard to say where that will level out.  If you wanted to use a curriculum as made sense, it could fit in, but it doesn’t seem like you are in a place to follow a curriculum, because he’s making progress and it would be hard to place him and then if he’s making progress the curriculum might not fit him long (as far as following a curriculum).  

My son I see as having plateaued, not in the sense like he’s not making progress, but in the sense that he is at a certain level, it’s an appropriate level for him, and it’s good to embrace his level.  He has vocabulary delays, he has a lot of lack of knowledge because of being delayed when he was younger.  It makes sense.  

I don’t think he’s going to just be able to use regular curriculum, I think he will need and benefit from intervention material, but he’s not ready for the next level of intervention material right now.  He needs to consolidate his gains!!!!!!!

I just don’t quite that impression, it seems like there is a lot of progress being made across a lot of areas, and like intervention materials are going well.

Just my take.  

If you bought something and then used it as you wanted, that would be different than buying it and expecting to follow it as designed.  But it doesn’t seem like you could expect to place him in a level and then expect him to go through it and have it stay appropriate, because he is making a lot of progress.  If he slows down and fits a level, or if you think a level would fit him and provide some benefits for him, you could use a level and then supplement.  I think that’s fine, too, if there is a level that does seem like a good fit.  

[PeterPan]

I think you're right that he's poised to make dramatic gains right now. Lots of components we've been working on are coming together. So I think you're right that if I expect to get a curriculum and have it just fit for a year it won't. Definitely. On the math I was thinking I'd run the three levels parallel. I need to see them. The amounts per page are small and I've built his tolerance to where he could handle a significant amount. He also thrives on the interaction. It's REALLY good for his behavior when he gets that level of interaction. He wakes up seeking me and ready to work. 

I just like to have a spread of work with him so it's not ask easy or all hard. With him a mix is good. I've done the three grade spread before in materials by the same publisher and it worked.

the BJU reading would have a lot of Social Thinking which would pull the level back. But you're right that if he jumps with his new books then it would quickly be boring. I was definitely not planning on the workbook, only the reader and discussion.

[PeterPan]

Yeah I wanted it more for the Social Thinking and thinking about his reading, so I'd be fitting him socially. 

 

[PeterPan]

Looked at it again and the 3rd gr 3rd edition would be really good for him.

[Lecka]

Seems good!  

[PeterPan]

The CYOA robots book is going well and cute, but he has trouble with turning to all the pages. I think it's the math thing. He knows those numbers, but those sequences and whether to turn forward or later in the back are not clear for him. So that's the challenge at this point, go figure. Good thing I ordered some books that are just straight readers as well.

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The CYOA robots book is going well and cute, but he has trouble with turning to all the pages. I think it's the math thing. He knows those numbers, but those sequences and whether to turn forward or later in the back are not clear for him.

You can work on this with various math related activities but if you want to make it more specific, you could work on dictionary skills. That is something that Jolly Grammar that we are using puts a lof of emphasis on but I had come across doing dictionary activities from when my oldest was very young (Sorry, I tried to find where but wasn't able to!) and started from when both my boys were really young. You could look up words in the dictionary or use the index of books to look up topics. First focus on just modeling it for your son until he can take over. 

All the best, 

M

[PeterPan]

Yeah, he can do it in theory. It was just a lot on top of the reading. He's not having the best day either. I just figured get him through today and tomorrow he'll shove me a side and be done with me, lol.

[Guest]

Another thing I found useful with my youngest is to show him roughly the thickness of 100 pages. This way he doesn't have to flip one or two pages at a time. It helps to visually know this type of information. 

We learn how to teach them better with time and by observing their needs. This is why I don't stress about things of the past. I just deal with things as they come up. 

I'm taking off again. Just came back to post in a thread that my comments were troubling me and I wanted to clarify them. Sometimes my choice of words in my eagerness to share what I feel is useful information, does not always reflect the sincerity of my intentions. 

 I do wish you and your son all the best,

M

[PeterPan]

Well we're back and going at it! For this first round, I'm going with these from my High Noon order:

-Sound Out Readers level C-1

-Leela and Ben series

-City Secrets

I should have ordered the It's All True series at level 1 instead of 2. I don't know how he'll do. The Heights was too hard for him to follow. He read the chapter but said he wasn't following it, couldn't keep track of the names. So that may be a narrative language thing that can improve with our Gillam work or that it's just pushing (lexile 430) or whatever. I might try some other things to get the list up to 4 or I might just keep it at 3. He went through them so quickly and comfortably, I almost think I could require it 2-3 times a day and be fine. So keeping them all at that same comfortable level would facilitate that. Then I'd have Sound Out C2, Pets Rule, and I don't know.

I think I want to add a choice reading time too, or at least I wish I could. I'm not sure he's ready for that. He's really chilled about these books because they're very comfortable for him. I told him that, that I had spent a lot of money to make sure he'd be able to just pick them up and they'd WORK. Maybe choice should be stuff we already have like Step readers, comics, magazines? I guess that could work. 

I'm just pleased it's working at all. It's definitely good momentum. We got some really cute lenticular bookmarks, so he thinks that's cool too. I had him read to me this morning from a jokes book (walmart, nothing fancy) and he really enjoyed that. So if we read when he first wakes up, have 2-3 required reading times, and then have a choice time, that's pretty good. At that point we're actually pushing into 1 hour, which would be nice. 2 would be better, but 1 is a start. 

It was also very obvious to me that he's not ready to just tell himself to sit down and read. I think that's the behavioral/autism piece. It's just my gut. Like when I gave him the joke book this morning, it was very obvious he could read with me hanging there and go on 20-30 minutes but that if I left it would be over. The reading he's doing in the HN books he did independently, but I asked for just one chapter and handed him a book, walking away, then I handed him the next book and said one chapter, etc. So that's a lot of support there, keeping it chunked and small and calm. But I think I can put those 3 books in a basket and then it's just basket reading, boom, go do your basket reading. And then I have a hook, an anchor, because he knows ok this is the chair I do my basket reading in. Then I'm screwed up because he'll say he can only read in that chair, oh my. Have to think harder, lol. But still, I liked the basket reading idea. It's just tidy, because it's one thing, go read through this stuff. 

I think if we get the frequency up enough (2-4 times a day), he'll start to feel the flow of the books and spit and realize he wants to just read longer chunks. I don't know, but I suspect that. I think maybe the plots will be easier to follow at this level. I need to hurry up and get the Gillam narrative program prepped, because he's going to need that to go into harder books with comprehension.

So are there other behavioral supports you use with autism to chain or help reading happen? What is the norm there? Haha, norm. I do think now that we're addressing the phonological issues adequately and acknowledging the affect narrative language has on his comprehension that at this point we're good to say we're also seeing the need for behavioral supports. He's not going to magically start reading at this point just because he CAN. He's actually going to need supports to get there. And at this point we've done enough that it's positive, not perjorative or forced or negative. He actually said he was good with the three and that the Heights (the 4th book) was too hard, that he didn't understand it. So to me, he's there and he'll just need the structures and supports to get him there. Goal would be two hours a day total eventually but maybe push into 90 minutes a day now. 

You know, I'm thinking if I went to the library and got NON-FICTION books, those could be a total winner for the choice pile. Y'all had told me that. The reason to get the total time up high like that (90-120) is because he's bored. I think getting non-fiction will help that too. He could enjoy reading to learn, I think. He's reading a Zelda Encyclopedia, so he CAN when he's motivated. We need to get that proactiveness and engagement. 

He had a really hard time with menus on our trip, btw. When he's confronted with a lot of text, it's just really hard for him to scan and figure out what to focus in on to read. He does ok with the kid menu, but he struggles with the full. He's about where he needs to switch over, so it's an issue. It's also just a life skill, mercy. But I don't know exactly what the words are for that and why it's hard and what to do about it. I just think it's something I'll need a way to target, because it's a life skill to be able to scan a display at the airport or a menu or a field of text and find things and be comfortable. Anyone know what that's called or what I'm trying to do there?

[Kanin]

I'm not afraid to admit it, I'm totally jealous of your High Noon reading stash ? I'm doing the CVC Sound-Outs with two kids, and one loves it, and the other is really meh... and I don't blame him, the CVC ones are pretty boring. The other kid is just thrilled to read her first chapter book. Raz-Kids is a better fit for the one who needs more non-fiction, high interest, still at a basic level.

Your experience with the CYOA books is interesting. Did he still enjoy them?

[PeterPan]

52 minutes ago, Mainer said:

I'm not afraid to admit it, I'm totally jealous of your High Noon reading stash ? I'm doing the CVC Sound-Outs with two kids, and one loves it, and the other is really meh... and I don't blame him, the CVC ones are pretty boring. The other kid is just thrilled to read her first chapter book. Raz-Kids is a better fit for the one who needs more non-fiction, high interest, still at a basic level.

Your experience with the CYOA books is interesting. Did he still enjoy them?

Bug me and maybe I can sell them to you when we're done with them. I think I looked at Raz Kids, and that was on the computer, right? I like something I can put in a basket, put in his face, something idiot-proof. He's not really mature enough or motivated to stick with it on a computer. (and we don't do wifi to read on an ipad) 

I don't think he's thrilled anyway. It may just take time to grow on him. 

We took our trip right after the CYOA books came, so he only read the one. We'll just have to re tackle it. Guess I don't have a sense there of how to handle them. And yeah, once he gets through them, I'll sell the CYOA books off too.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Bug me and maybe I can sell them to you when we're done with them. I think I looked at Raz Kids, and that was on the computer, right? I like something I can put in a basket, put in his face, something idiot-proof. He's not really mature enough or motivated to stick with it on a computer. (and we don't do wifi to read on an ipad) 

 I don't think he's thrilled anyway. It may just take time to grow on him. 

We took our trip right after the CYOA books came, so he only read the one. We'll just have to re tackle it. Guess I don't have a sense there of how to handle them. And yeah, once he gets through them, I'll sell the CYOA books off too.

Yea! I'll buy them! ?

Raz-Kids is online, yes. Maybe it will work in the future. If not, there are tons of other things! I usually prefer paper books, too, it's just so handy for people with more than one student to have a bunch of 5-minute books available. 

[Lecka]

The Zelda Encyclopedia sounds great.  I think I saw it at Target today.  He might like DK non-fiction books or other “guidebooks” or “handbooks” about popular themes.  

If he is reading that independently, then you may be able to just provide similar books for him.  

I separate independent and required reading.  My kids may or may not do any independent reading at all.  

If he is doing independent reading, I think look at when, where, and what he is reading and keep a space for it and look for ways to encourage it.  This can be anything from letting him put off a chore or bedtime, to leaving library books a place he will flip through them, to making a theme book into a reward.  If you have him save money or get points some way, and wait, etc, he might like that.

For required reading we have some kind of routine, but it is required on some level.  

If you have independent reading where he is picking up a book on his own time, I think that’s really precious.  

For my kids in regular classes, they both have time they read their choice of book, but it’s either a quiet time (study hall) or a time the teacher is working with other reading groups (my 4th grader).  Right now I talk to both of them about what they are reading at school and I trust they are reading at school.  

For my younger son, right now I have relaxed a lot because he is finally at a point where I think he gets something out of silent reading at school.  This can be SUCH a waste of time.  But  at this point I think he does benefit.  He at least picks books and looks at them (reads them lol) at his desk everyday.  I don’t see him have stamina of more than ten minutes at home, though, and I doubt he has more than that at school, at a time.  It’s something, though.  He is read to a lot so that he can participate in whatever is going on, and I don’t think they do much as far as decoding/phonics.  But they do good with other things, and reading to him or telling him things.  They don’t leave him to sit with a book and then assume he has read and understood it, which I think happens a lot in mainstream classes.  

Anyway I am aiming for him to read out loud to me 10-20 minutes a day and then have a long (30+ minutes) read-aloud at night.  It’s less than we have been doing but it seems good for now.

Lately he has done a Level 2 Spongebob reader and a Young Cam Jansen.  I check out things from the library and then let him pick.  He often picks to read something I have previously read out loud to him.  I tend to read the possible books the first day or two they are checked out, and then he can picks the ones he has liked.  It’s also a comprehension support since I will talk about it when I read it to him.  Seems to be working out.  

I feel like right now he is actually reading more words in 10-20 minutes, than he used to read in 2 hours, pretty recently, because he is reading better.  

I think it’s great you are increasing reading volume.  It sounds like a good idea for you guys.   

 

[PeterPan]

20 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I don’t see him have stamina of more than ten minutes at home

Oh now THAT is something I hadn't thought to ponder. I just figured oh he'll read and figured that meant like 30-60 minute chunks. But you're right, if it's that hard, he may do better with multiple short sessions. Dunno. Guess we'll just see.

I like your point that supplementing with what he's already enjoying will probably lure him into more independent reading. I didn't make it to the library today, my bad. I have this pile of 50 books that we used and enjoyed that I wanted to reread and do something with on a narrative language level. The books are wonderful, but I just need to get him going with Gillam and get that done. Then I can return them and get fresh books. I cap at 99 I think, and I'm sorta there at all times these days, oops.

[Lecka]

I think for my other two kids this age... plain reading I think stamina of 30 minutes would be their maximum.  

For things like a DK book or Pokémon handbook, that are simpler or involve time spent looking at the pictures, then yes an hour.  

I think, consider your purpose.  Is you purpose fluency, comprehension, getting used to solo reading, etc.  For some goals listening to an audiobook might be just as good and his stamina might be longer. 

Right now my purpose is more fluency, so I have gone over comprehension with him ahead, or I am familiar with his comprehension of similar things and know it will be okay.  

Then with read-alouds I am focusing on comprehension.  Or, with picture books I am focusing on vocabulary.

Right now with his best comprehension, he can answer questions very well.  But he doesn’t make much of a summary.  But I’m not focusing on that right now at all, partly he does get some of that elsewhere, and partly I think he’s balanced now (as his listening comprehension is not at a very high level) and so I think he’s balanced enough for now.  He can state the problem a lot of the time.  He can say a sentence like “the character did such-and-such.”  I think it’s good for where he is right now.  It’s hard to explain.  I think it’s good for him right now, though, I think it’s where he is at right now.  I think he’ll hang out here for a while but still be making a lot of progress.  

Partly too he has exited OT and so right now he has an exercise type class 3 days a week after school, and I need to sign him up for swim lessons at some point.  It’s taking up time but it’s good for him now.  (My husband is also concerned about over-scheduling so I’m not sure if we will quit anything.)  He is getting home later too, but he likes riding the bus with his sister a lot, so I’m letting that take up about an hour (compared to if I went and got him, because if I went and got him I would get him before they load the buses).  But my daughter has a lot of friends on the bus and they both enjoy it.  My daughter has also decided that only “babies” get picked up from school, sigh.  It’s easier on me anyway lol.  

Edited September 30, 2018 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

You know how occasionally I'm incredibly doofuss-y? Well I'm reading on a FB group today and they're gabbing reading comprehension and intervention and kids who are word callers, low comprehension, blah blah, and the one teacher is like oh well I have them read an article a day from Read Works and then notebook it!! Well, duh, hello. Boy am *I* slow on the draw!!! And she called it something swanky (Book of Knowledge) but that was the idea, notebooking, finding a way to communicate what you learned and making the effort to comprehend enough that you COULD notebook it. 

Back to your regular programming. I'm just slow sometimes, lol. Oh, and it turns out ds can read a chapter from the Leela and Ben mysteries during the commercial breaks for Tom & Jerry. That means it's all right and school work to watch cartoons, right? Ugh, I know. Sometimes I don't win. But he is plowing through the books. This could get really cool though, if he makes tracks through these books and we get the Gillam stuff going and we get some notebooking going. That would actually be impressive. I've decided that's the hardest thing about having him home right now, that there's so much entropy to him, that he just gravitates to whatever is on his mind and it takes so much energy to spin and pull him from that orbit. I don't know whether I should just work with that orbit or fight it, sigh. But that's what working with it looks like, a chapter book read during commercials. Crazy.

Actually though, that tells me he's having a hard time. We had been doing better. It's always effort to get it back. I've just been lower energy, even with the thyroid meds. It's just that it blows my mind how QUICKLY his brain returns to that entropy. It's really crazy. I want to create some up to date, very clear structure. Not so much structure of what I do with him as structure he does to himself. That's why the notebooking is resonating, because I think he can work with a list like that. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Came across this discussion of guided reading in the FB list for this TX literacy support group. http://www.texasreaders.org/uploads/4/4/9/0/44902393/10._october_lss.pdf  The teachers are talking about how they use guided reading. They mention some F&P question prompts, which I think may be these http://marcy.mpls.k12.mn.us/uploads/fpcomprehensionquestionstems.pdf

[Kanin]

On 9/30/2018 at 4:45 PM, PeterPan said:

You know how occasionally I'm incredibly doofuss-y? Well I'm reading on a FB group today and they're gabbing reading comprehension and intervention and kids who are word callers, low comprehension, blah blah, and the one teacher is like oh well I have them read an article a day from Read Works and then notebook it!! Well, duh, hello. Boy am *I* slow on the draw!!! And she called it something swanky (Book of Knowledge) but that was the idea, notebooking, finding a way to communicate what you learned and making the effort to comprehend enough that you COULD notebook it. 

Back to your regular programming. I'm just slow sometimes, lol. Oh, and it turns out ds can read a chapter from the Leela and Ben mysteries during the commercial breaks for Tom & Jerry. That means it's all right and school work to watch cartoons, right? Ugh, I know. Sometimes I don't win. But he is plowing through the books. This could get really cool though, if he makes tracks through these books and we get the Gillam stuff going and we get some notebooking going. That would actually be impressive. I've decided that's the hardest thing about having him home right now, that there's so much entropy to him, that he just gravitates to whatever is on his mind and it takes so much energy to spin and pull him from that orbit. I don't know whether I should just work with that orbit or fight it, sigh. But that's what working with it looks like, a chapter book read during commercials. Crazy.

Actually though, that tells me he's having a hard time. We had been doing better. It's always effort to get it back. I've just been lower energy, even with the thyroid meds. It's just that it blows my mind how QUICKLY his brain returns to that entropy. It's really crazy. I want to create some up to date, very clear structure. Not so much structure of what I do with him as structure he does to himself. That's why the notebooking is resonating, because I think he can work with a list like that. 

Dang, I didn't see this earlier. ReadWorks is super! I never had the kids do the "Book of Knowledge" thing, but I really love the quizzes that accompany the articles. Very simple and good, I think.