Science for a kid looking toward med school: Sequence? Dissections? Other considerations?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

The med school focus is a relatively new development, and I was not prepared for high school to go in this direction, so I really haven't done much research. I'm not even sure where to start. 

 

We're HSing Bio at home using Miller-Levine and Kolbe's Honors syllabus (still at the beginning for various reasons). I'm comfortable with teaching it, and I'm comfortable with guiding labs etc. BUT...dissections. I'm halfway to vegan right now, personally, and while I know dissections are very important, I simply will not be able to guide DD in them. She has no problem with them though, and is kind of looking forward to them. (She's done a cow eye and a few other small ones, so she knows what to expect to a certain degree.)

 

I'm wondering how important hands-on dissections are for 9th grade bio, especially for a kid looking at a med school-oriented undergrad experience. Are there certain ones we absolutely need to do so that she can be prepared for AP Bio (or more likely DE Bio)? Can we still get by with virtual labs for 9th grade while knowing that she'll be doing hands-on later? 

 

And for sequence, my original plan was Bio for 9th, Chem for 10th, a conceptual Physics for 11th, and then something DD wanted for senior year--either a DE or something more interest-led at that point (probably Botany). But now I'm thinking this probably needs to be done differently. Bio for 9th, Chem for 10th, a harder Physics for 11th, then DE Bio for STEM students? Something else? Can we let Physics go in favor of more life-science-oriented courses? 

 

Are there standard expectations we should look toward meeting if med school is a consideration? Or am I still just looking at getting a kid into a good college, and THEN she starts worrying about what expectations to meet for med school? 

 

Thanks again. I'm flapping in the wind here, and I don't have much time to get all this ready. At least I know what we need to do in the short term!

[JanetC]

I wouldn't do conceptual "anything" science -- she's going to need to prepare for high powered college level science classes. No, do not let physics go. High school physics makes college physics much easier.

 

When enrolling in DE classes, remember that all college transcripts will be part of the medical school application, do be conservative about challenge and workload until you're confident she's ready.

 

High school matters as preparation for college level premed classes, but it doesn't need to be a life science focused experience. Many high schools are doing more molecular (DNA,molecules of life) and cellular processes (mitosis, meiosis, photosynthesis) in the first high school bio class. Anatomy and dissecting would be biology 2. Even if you don't do any dissections, she will be ok for college, but a detailed frog dissection makes the different organs more "real" versus looking at pictures.

[almondbutterandjelly]

My future nursing student is quite enjoying Anatomy and Physiology as her 4th science.  We are using Apologia Advanced Biology, and I bought the DVD lectures.  She takes notes on the video, we read the book together, she answers the questions and does the coloring book work.  Then study guide.  Then test.  And we are going through it at half pace so taking two years to do it, just to really solidify it.  But it's her favorite class.

 

 

[regentrude]

I do not think that dissections in highschool are important.

Premed students will need to take two semesters of physics at college. I would definitely do a physics course in highschool so they will have a better foundation.

 

Beyond preparing the student for college, I do not think that the high school coursework has any relevance for acceptance to medical school.

[kiana]

Are there standard expectations we should look toward meeting if med school is a consideration? Or am I still just looking at getting a kid into a good college, and THEN she starts worrying about what expectations to meet for med school? 

 

Yes. And laying the groundwork for her success in college classes. Don't worry about AP/DE classes. She can prep for medical school just fine starting with college classes in college instead of high school. 

 

Normally I'd agree about not doing conceptual physics but I think because of her non-standard situation with math it might be the best solution for 10th grade. Physical science would look weird after biology and I don't think she's ready for a standard chemistry class with where she is in math. Then you could do a standard chemistry in 11th, and make your decision about 12th later after seeing how she's doing in math, and also assuming her goals don't change. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Yes. And laying the groundwork for her success in college classes. Don't worry about AP/DE classes. She can prep for medical school just fine starting with college classes in college instead of high school. 

 

Normally I'd agree about not doing conceptual physics but I think because of her non-standard situation with math it might be the best solution for 10th grade. Physical science would look weird after biology and I don't think she's ready for a standard chemistry class with where she is in math. Then you could do a standard chemistry in 11th, and make your decision about 12th later after seeing how she's doing in math, and also assuming her goals don't change. 

 

Kiana (or anyone, really), what math would she have finished, ideally, to do well in a standard chem class? Algebra 1? Or all the way through Algebra 2? I can't remember when I took what in my own high school experience. 

 

Thank you for the alternate sequence to consider. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I wouldn't do conceptual "anything" science -- she's going to need to prepare for high powered college level science classes. No, do not let physics go. High school physics makes college physics much easier.

 

When enrolling in DE classes, remember that all college transcripts will be part of the medical school application, do be conservative about challenge and workload until you're confident she's ready.

 

High school matters as preparation for college level premed classes, but it doesn't need to be a life science focused experience. Many high schools are doing more molecular (DNA,molecules of life) and cellular processes (mitosis, meiosis, photosynthesis) in the first high school bio class. Anatomy and dissecting would be biology 2. Even if you don't do any dissections, she will be ok for college, but a detailed frog dissection makes the different organs more "real" versus looking at pictures.

 

Excellent, thanks! And someone on our local FB group clued me in to the fact that a WTMer who happens to be local to me runs science classes and offers dissection, so if necessary and DD really wants to, she can get her hands dirty (ugh!) that way as well.

 

My future nursing student is quite enjoying Anatomy and Physiology as her 4th science.  We are using Apologia Advanced Biology, and I bought the DVD lectures.  She takes notes on the video, we read the book together, she answers the questions and does the coloring book work.  Then study guide.  Then test.  And we are going through it at half pace so taking two years to do it, just to really solidify it.  But it's her favorite class.

 

A&P, of course! Wonderful idea!

 

I do not think that dissections in highschool are important.

Premed students will need to take two semesters of physics at college. I would definitely do a physics course in highschool so they will have a better foundation.

 

Beyond preparing the student for college, I do not think that the high school coursework has any relevance for acceptance to medical school.

 

 

That is a great relief, thank you. I'd like her to still have the experience if we can manage it, but it will be easier to get the smaller dissections accomplished than the larger ones. And it's good to know that even if we can't manage it, we'll still be OK. Her cousin was telling her all about dissecting fetal pigs and whatnot for AP Bio, and I was wondering how on earth I was going to make that happen.

[Dicentra]

Kiana (or anyone, really), what math would she have finished, ideally, to do well in a standard chem class? Algebra 1? Or all the way through Algebra 2? I can't remember when I took what in my own high school experience. 

 

Thank you for the alternate sequence to consider. 

 

To do well in a standard chem class, she should be solid on Alg 1 concepts.  When students struggle with chemistry, it's primarily because their algebra skills (algebraic manipulations of formulas, reading/analyzing/solving word problems, etc.) aren't solid.  They may also struggle because they have difficulty with abstract thinking but that can also be helped by working algebra problems. :)

[Joyful]

I agree that doing hands-on dissection is not so important in high school. Virtual dissection labs will do fine.

 

One thing I would add is that college pre-med requirements are heavy on chemistry, while requiring one year each of biology and physics. Not only is one year of college level chemistry required, so are one year of organic chemistry (traditionally a "killer course" for pre-med students) and one semester of  biochemistry. So I would recommend that a student take honors chemistry and consider taking AP Chemistry in high school in order to have a solid foundation to do well in their pre-med courses.

[Julie of KY]

Lots of science to prepare for more science.

 

I do recommend taking statistics sometime as medical literature is full of statistics and doctors are poor readers of statistics. With a little knowledge, you can wee out a lot of junk.

[Dicentra]

 

One thing I would add is that college pre-med requirements are heavy on chemistry, while requiring one year each of biology and physics. Not only is one year of college level chemistry required, so are one year of organic chemistry (traditionally a "killer course" for pre-med students) and one semester of  biochemistry. So I would recommend that a student take honors chemistry and consider taking AP Chemistry in high school in order to have a solid foundation to do well in their pre-med courses.

 

I tend to view organic chem and biochem as different beasts than AP Chemistry - while AP Chem is heavy on the Phys Chem aspect, they've taken out virtually all mentions of organic chem.  After a good and rigorous honors chem course, a first course in org chem and biochem might be more helpful for a potential pre pre-med student. :)  Organic was my major at university and what you mention above is the main reason why I have an Intro to Organic Chem & Biochem course on offer along with the Reg Chem and Honors Chem courses on my website. :)  My dd is considering medicine as a possible future career so for her Grade 12 year this year, I've been creating and developing a chem course that will give her a first look at what organic and biochem will be like at university.  If anyone would like to see the scope and sequence, it's here.

 

If a student is less strong mathematically, an intro organic chem & biochem course might be a better second chem option than AP Chemistry - AP Chem is VERY heavy on mathematical applications of phys chem.  There is virtually no math needed for my intro org chem/biochem course - just a love of tiny, picky details and tons of memory work. :)

[daijobu]

If your student is interested in dissections, then by all means, let her do them.  (She'll be dissecting human cadavers soon enough!)  But it isn't necessary.  

 

In high school she should be prepping hard for science and math classes.  At my college, chemistry was the "weed-out" course: little support from professors; students who enter as premeds change their minds because of chemistry.  At other colleges it could be a different class.   The important thing is to arrive on campus ready to knock those classes out of the park.  

 

You can also prepare your student by having them develop their scientific curiosity.  Read non fiction books about science and technology and medicine.  Maybe become acquainted with public health and US health care delivery.  Physicians are both healers and scientists.  

[MeaganS]

Dh just finished residency last summer, and I agree that high school doesn't matter much beyond getting into a good college and being prepared for more difficult work. Dh didn't even decide to go to med school until after his 2nd year of undergrad.

 

One thing I would recommend is making sure your dd has interests that aren't related to medicine that she can document and talk about. Everyone applying to med school has good grades and scores, it's the extracurriculars that stand out. For example, dh was editor of a college publication and a TA for History of Jazz all through college. These were the main talking points at almost all his interviews. That and start looking at opportunities to shadow and volunteer in a medical setting as early as possible in her undergraduate career.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Meagan S

[EKS]

Coming in a bit late here, but I'd have her do real high school physics (Derek Owens is good) and *not* have her do any of the med school prerequisites until she gets to college (so not DE, though AP would be ok). 

 

Dissections aren't important.  I have a degree in biochemistry and never dissected anything in high school or college--I did dissect a worm and a frog in middle school, which is how I know they aren't critical.  Dissections are concerned with *surface features* whereas modern biology is concerned with what's underneath, how the molecules, cells, and organs actually work.  

 

You want to make sure her math is rock solid so that she can be successful in math-based science in high school and college.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

For anyone who didn't also read my math schedule thread: Thank you again, so much! I'm sorry it took me so long to come back. We're hosting visiting family this week, and it has been a whirlwind of cleaning, prep, and hosting family gatherings. 

 

I finally ordered the Bio lab kit (the big LabPaq). We're both really looking forward to all the experiments. There are two dissection specimens in there--crayfish and grasshopper, I believe--and she's looking forward to both (though she scoffed a little and called them dissections for babies, since she's already soooo experienced, having done the cow eye). I might just let her do those on her own while I find something to do on another floor of the house  :ack2: 

 

Thank you all for the fantastic information. I will share as much as I can with her without freaking her out :lol: It's really wonderful to see her excited about something academic for the first time in our homeschooling journey  :blush:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Dh just finished residency last summer, and I agree that high school doesn't matter much beyond getting into a good college and being prepared for more difficult work. Dh didn't even decide to go to med school until after his 2nd year of undergrad.

 

One thing I would recommend is making sure your dd has interests that aren't related to medicine that she can document and talk about. Everyone applying to med school has good grades and scores, it's the extracurriculars that stand out. For example, dh was editor of a college publication and a TA for History of Jazz all through college. These were the main talking points at almost all his interviews. That and start looking at opportunities to shadow and volunteer in a medical setting as early as possible in her undergraduate career.

 

Thank you, I will definitely keep the value of balance in mind. She's been getting more and more into archery, and we're about to get her her own bow, so hopefully that will be something else for her to build on. Again, this is the first extracurricular she's ever found rewarding enough to stick with in spite of the anxiety it can engender, so we'll support it every way we can!