Is there a Latin program that sufficiently covers English grammar other than LREG?

[Slache]

Thanks.

[TheAttachedMama]

Have you looked at Memoria Press Latin?

[Slache]

Have you looked at Memoria Press Latin?

 

That's what I'm looking at right now but I'm not convinced it covers English Grammar. Also, If I use MP I'd like to start with Prima Latina and I don't want to begin another language next year. My son will be in 2nd grade.

[ScoutTN]

I think a student learns English grammar as he studies Latin, but not in the same way or to the sane extent that happens when actually studying grammar. I don't think any Latin program is a substitute for English grammar. Esp. since Latin curricula for elementary age kids are largely vocabulary and forms.

[Hunter]

Henle Latin has a lot of diagramming that transfers right over to English. Both my boys and I all learned English grammar AFTER Latin grammar. It was a difficult transition for me to start teaching English grammar to students that did not have any training in Latin.

[Slache]

Henle Latin has a lot of diagramming that transfers right over to English. Both my boys and I all learned English grammar AFTER Latin grammar. It was a difficult transition for me to start teaching English grammar to students that did not have any training in Latin.

 

What did you use prior to Henle and when did you start?

[Slache]

Was MP Latin written *for* Henle?

[Hunter]

What did you use prior to Henle and when did you start?

 

I really didn't use anything other than a library copy of Latin Made Simple, a Latin dictionary, and homemade lessons. It was the 1990s, and I was dealing with a barely-verbal but gifted kid with migraines skipping school so he could stay home and take a "mental health day" and learn something.

 

I didn't learn the parts of speech until my Latin teacher taught them to me. I just did the same thing with the boys. I had little more than myself and I learned grammar from my Latin teacher. It was the best I had to offer at the time. This is pre-internet, mind you.

 

MP originally made some supplements for Henle, but then abandoned that to write their own. 

 

For ME at THAT time with what I HAD, it was easier to do things the way I did. It aint the 1990s anymore, though. :lol:

[Hunter]

My little guy was 9 when I started Latin with him.

 

My older son got a lot less and a lot later grammar. He took Latin at the charter school, but didn't teach the parts of speech, if you can believe that. That was really one of the primary reasons I yanked him for what was supposed to be just one year of grade 8 homeschooling. Things went a whole other unexpected way, though. :lol:

 

He called me on Christmas, at a reasonable time in HIS timezone, but WAY late my time and talked to me until morning my time, and one of the things he talked about was his teen education and more about one of the times he got injured at work while underage. It is a good thing I didn't know the true story! Unbelievable. Sigh! :lol:

 

He did fine with his hodgepodge grammar instruction. It is absolutely not one of the things he wishes went differently. Math is another story and not MY fault. I got a story about that, too, that wasn't shared earlier. Man, what you hear once they turn 30. :lol:

[Hunter]

He was 10, almost 11 when we started Henle, I think. It took me awhile to save up for the book. We didn't have much, back then. Not only was money tight, but the first couple years were before the curriculum explosion.

[chiguirre]

Was MP Latin written *for* Henle?

 

The MP Forms replace the Henle I book which actually takes 2 high school years to cover and will prepare a student to read Caesar's Gallic Wars. You can do the forms from about 5th or 6th grade and take 4 years to do them and still get to AP Latin (The Aeneid) in high school. Prima Latina and Latina Christiana are watered down versions of First Form for younger kids. They're not essential, you can easily start with First Form. If you're doing Spanish with your kids, the vocabulary bump from doing the earlier books is negligible. They'll already "know" lots of Latin words just from having learned Spanish.

 

If you do wait until 8th or 9th grade to start Latin, Henle I will work fine with a couple of caveats. The book's font is very small, the layout is cramped and the binding is a bit wonky. It's physically hard to work with. There are free worksheets available for Henle at Magistra Jones' website (kudos to her for typing out all the exercises to make them visually appealing--this is such a help to using Henle!)

 

http://www.magistrajoneslatin.com/bonus-materials/

 

We used Michael Clay Thompson and those work well for prepping for Latin. The sentence parsing into clauses, phrases, parts of the sentence and parts of speech is excellent practice for translating Latin and understanding the use of the cases. I only used MCT so I don't know if other programs would work as well.

[KrissiK]

Henle Latin has a lot of diagramming that transfers right over to English. Both my boys and I all learned English grammar AFTER Latin grammar. It was a difficult transition for me to start teaching English grammar to students that did not have any training in Latin.

My kids all went through most of MP’s stuff and I am half way through Henle I for my own personal studies. I think both curricula assume you know English grammar. I finished purpose clauses in Henle recently and it doesn’t teach you what they are in any depth, it assumes you know. If I didn’t know from having taught/learned dependent clauses from R&S, I would have had a harder time of it. Plus, Latin grammar does not mirror English grammar. Or, perhaps I should say the opposite, since Latin is older that English. Latin grammar is Latin Grammar and English Grammar is English grammar. Knowing one may help you with the other, but Latin is not English, just with different words.

[KrissiK]

Was MP Latin written *for* Henle?

I went through Prima Latina four times, Latina Christiana three times and First Form twice and Second Form once with my kids and then started Henle on my own. I agree with previous posters that MP’s elementary curriculum is kind of like Henle, but drawn out. But there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think it is good, especially for kids (and moms) who do not grasp languages naturally. It took all that for me to finally figure out the “Latin Paradigm†and that I cannot approach the study of Latin the way I speak, read and study English. That may be “duh†for some people, but for me, I just applied my English language paradigms to Latin and finally realized “it don’t work that way!†And for me, since I am a busy mom with 5 kids, etc.etc. and didn’t have a lot of time to study, but just kind of absorbed Latin after doing it so many time with my kids, that realization was a huge “aha†moment and kicked off my on personal Latin study. Edited January 7, 2018 by KrissiK

[Slache]

I think Latin can replace explicit English grammar *practice,* but not initial instruction. I was extremely optimistic about the Latin for English idea until my son began Latin lessons! I don't see how he could have done any of it without already knowing some grammar the regular way. I mean, it would have just been gobbledygook.

 

He started with Little Latin Readers and GSWL, for reference. Maybe there really is some amazeballs Latin program that teaches, instead of just reinforces (and possibly deepens) English grammar understanding!

Latin Road To English Grammar but I don't find it appealing.

 

It aint the 1990s anymore, though. :lol:

It isn't? 

 

 

The MP Forms replace the Henle I book which actually takes 2 high school years to cover and will prepare a student to read Caesar's Gallic Wars. You can do the forms from about 5th or 6th grade and take 4 years to do them and still get to AP Latin (The Aeneid) in high school. Prima Latina and Latina Christiana are watered down versions of First Form for younger kids. They're not essential, you can easily start with First Form. If you're doing Spanish with your kids, the vocabulary bump from doing the earlier books is negligible. They'll already "know" lots of Latin words just from having learned Spanish.

 

If you do wait until 8th or 9th grade to start Latin, Henle I will work fine with a couple of caveats. The book's font is very small, the layout is cramped and the binding is a bit wonky. It's physically hard to work with. There are free worksheets available for Henle at Magistra Jones' website (kudos to her for typing out all the exercises to make them visually appealing--this is such a help to using Henle!)

 

http://www.magistrajoneslatin.com/bonus-materials/

 

We used Michael Clay Thompson and those work well for prepping for Latin. The sentence parsing into clauses, phrases, parts of the sentence and parts of speech is excellent practice for translating Latin and understanding the use of the cases. I only used MCT so I don't know if other programs would work as well.

This is all extremely helpful. Thank you. I find that with my Spanish and limited Greek that Latin is not very frightening.  Where in the MCT program do you see the prepping? Just the grammar?

 

Latin is not English, just with different words.

But I want it to be.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Slache

[Slache]

My wardrobe and decor both strongly disagree that it's not 1992 right now.

 

So does my music.  :coolgleamA:

[Slache]

So, does LC take 2 years? Suggested sequence.

[Hunter]

Not everyone teaches ALL possible grammar topics. I didn't teach my boys what I didn't know. Heck, I didn't even know that many topics even existed. I was young and times were different. I didn't worry about teaching what I didn't know and need myself. I didn't know enough to worry. LOL. So I just winged basic grammar while we worked through Latin made Simple and then Henle. And then I learned more grammar alongside my son while doing Machen Greek as we needed it for the Greek. I mostly only taught what overlapped between classical languages and English. 

 

It is a CHOICE what grammar topics you teach. Really it is! You cannot teach it all. Teach what you have and what you love. If the kid is going to NEED more than that, he is going to need a work ethic and have the abilities to self-teach by the middle of high school. If he doesn't, he ain't going to need that stuff. So mid-high school, the kid, if he is the type to need it, can park his fanny in a chair and teach himself. These kids are not going to make it through the next step after leaving us, if they don't first show some ability to self-educate. Few of us, here, can hire college tutors that will baby-sit them through that next step. Those last couple years at home are an indication of what to expect for the next decade.

 

Really, for a LONG time, you CAN focus almost exclusively on what overlaps in Latin and English and then clean up more as NEEDED later on.

 

 

[SevenDaisies]

So, does LC take 2 years? Suggested sequence.

It was written to be completed in a year. A few years ago MP revamped their 3rd grade package to create a more gentle ramp-up from 2nd grade. In their standard 3rd grade package it is scheduled over two years. In the accelerated 3rd grade plans (the original 3rd grade package now sold as accelerated), it is completed in 1 year.

[TheAttachedMama]

So, does LC take 2 years? Suggested sequence.

 

LC is not necessarily a two-year program.  The chart you are looking at there is for a typical child who happens to start with Prima in 2nd grade.  If they start that early, they can spread LC through 3rd and 4th grade if they want.  This allows them to have a shorter school day in 3rd grade so they can still have plenty of free time (still a priority)...and it also allows them to focus on any other skill-based subjects that still need to be firmed up (phonics, penmanship, etc.)   

 

But, starting Prima in 2nd grade is not the only path through MP Latin.   Some kids are not ready for all of the writing in Prima Latina in 2nd grade.   They need another year to gain hand stamina.    And some kids are still firming up their phonics in 2nd grade (and that has to take priority.)    Additionally, some older kids can skip Prima and LC completely since they are introductory courses.   SO---A better chart to look at would be the chart recently published in the latest magazine/catalog Memoria Press just sent out.  It shows you several suggested paths through Latin using Memoria Press depending on what age you start.   You can view that article online here:  https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/which-latin-program-do-i-start-with/

(BTW---that chart assumes you are talking about typical children with no learning challenges.   My two older kids have dyslexia, but they are thriving with Memoria press because of the explicit instruction and all of the scheduled review.    I have my 4th grader in Prima and my 5th grade son going through LC at the one year's pace.   As you can see, even starting a bit later, they will have time to go all the way through Henle year 3 or even AP Latin which is not bad!)    Other kids are quite advanced in language-based subjects, and can even handle Prima in first grade.  

 

MP publishes two different sets of lesson plans.   One takes you through LC in one year, another takes you through the program in two years.   You can choose whichever one works best for your kids.   (Another confusing point I should mention is that a long time ago, Memoria Press used to publish another Latin program by the name of Latina Christiana.   It was a lot different than the current Latina Christiana that you can buy. It covered more of what is in the form series of Latin.   They have since updated their Latin sequence and made a TON of improvements to LC.   So, make sure when you talk to people, they are taking about the new version of LC...not the old.   I don't think I would have liked the old program very much, but I love the new LC.)   

[chiguirre]

Where in the MCT program do you see the prepping? Just the grammar?

The grammar and the vocabulary will help prep for Latin. Caesar's English spends a lot of time on Latin roots.

[Hunter]

Personally, I find it easier to learn a whole language than to learn just the roots. The roots out of enough context, just don't stick.

 

I know slache doesn't mind, and she is the OP, but some of the rest of you are going to just have to bear with me. The people that know me best know why I am not taking advantage of PMs. So you ALL get an update.  :laugh:

 

College starts next week. I'm mostly all set. One of you ladies bought me a coat and snow pants from Amazon and had it sent to an Amazon locker in my city and sent to code to someone else that sent it to me. It has been frigid here! God bless you!

 

Last week I had to walk over a mile and then again back home in the height of the blizzard. That was a blast, when in the right gear. I was so high on life. In some of the wind tunnels, the wind was so strong, if I hopped onto icy strips, I was able to "sail" down the ice. I fell a few times, but it was so worth it! It was crazy fun!

 

I'm trying to learn Spanish and have been going at it as hard as I tackled the math for the placement test. I was listening to Earworms Spanish and singing and chanting along as I sailed down the ice. When people in MY city stare at you, you know you are being REAALLY different. They were miserable. I was having a blast. Thanks to my new snow pants that cushioned my bum when I fell.  :lol:

 

By the time I got back to my building, I was covered in any icy layer and running and laughing. One of the staff I know well was using the snowblower, and he just laughed at me and said he was NOT having as much fun as me.

 

My new glasses were another flop. Going to one of the best eye hospitals in the whole world still resulted in another improper FITTING session. Unbelieveable. The person doing that fitting said it was normal to have glasses make your vision WORSE at first and to wear them for two weeks anyway. All that did was give me major eye strain and now I cannot see with or without glasses. Soooo, that got me declared visually impaired by Easter Seals this morning, which – this is crazy – makes me eligible for MORE stuff than just the PTSD. Okay, so, like, if I get better vision back later, which I expect I will, this is a pretty good deal in the long run. Everything this year that first looks tragic turns golden! EVERYTHING! I am loving this year!

 

When I didn't have a coat and even when it first got cold, so cold it hurt, I just stood in the cold calmly and KNEW that either a coat would be supplied, or somehow the painful cold would lead to something that would make it worth it. It is just how this year goes, if I don't panic, don't complain, and WAIT. I got a coat.  :hurray:  I love my coat and pants! Thanks!

 

I'm good. Bad stuff happens, but it is like water than rolls off a duck's back, no matter what it is. I'm not manic. No one can maintain mania this long and stay this productive. I am just high on life. People are scratching their heads at me, trying to figure this out. It makes no sense by normie standards, but I'm no normie, so... this is just how being 50 is playing out for ME. I still have a couple months. This year has been the fastest, most incredible ride, yet.

 

I think college is going to be really really good! The college seems to like me. They know what crap I bring, and they just keep saying how much they want me there and for me to succeed. They are okay even about the seizures and just put a plan in place to deal with them when they happen. So, like, all the security guys now know my name. All my tests are going to be in the disability department.

 

I think that about covers what I would want to say in public. I love you all, but, the issue still remains that makes PM not a great idea. There was an issue last week.  :banghead:  :ack2:  :angry:  But *I* am good. I just don't want this to leak onto anyone else from here.

 

Happy New Year everyone! I was under the confetti and watching the fireworks for New Years. By myself, in the freezing cold, but definitely not feeling sorry for myself. I stood there looking up at the sky and fireworks and couldn't believe how alive and how lucky I felt. The biting cold and being alone in the crowd only made me feel more alive. I was giggling in joy, and turning in circles, taking it all in and wondering what adventures THIS year will bring. Being alive feels so good. Sometimes just merely breathing and feeling a big lungful of air. The cold lungfuls are even more intense.

 

Thanks Slache!

[Slache]

Personally, I find it easier to learn a whole language than to learn just the roots. The roots out of enough context, just don't stick.

 

I know slache doesn't mind, and she is the OP, but some of the rest of you are going to just have to bear with me. The people that know me best know why I am not taking advantage of PMs. So you ALL get an update. :laugh:

 

College starts next week. I'm mostly all set. One of you ladies bought me a coat and snow pants from Amazon and had it sent to an Amazon locker in my city and sent to code to someone else that sent it to me. It has been frigid here! God bless you!

 

Last week I had to walk over a mile and then again back home in the height of the blizzard. That was a blast, when in the right gear. I was so high on life. In some of the wind tunnels, the wind was so strong, if I hopped onto icy strips, I was able to "sail" down the ice. I fell a few times, but it was so worth it! It was crazy fun!

 

I'm trying to learn Spanish and have been going at it as hard as I tackled the math for the placement test. I was listening to Earworms Spanish and singing and chanting along as I sailed down the ice. When people in MY city stare at you, you know you are being REAALLY different. They were miserable. I was having a blast. Thanks to my new snow pants that cushioned my bum when I fell. :lol:

 

By the time I got back to my building, I was covered in any icy layer and running and laughing. One of the staff I know well was using the snowblower, and he just laughed at me and said he was NOT having as much fun as me.

 

My new glasses were another flop. Going to one of the best eye hospitals in the whole world still resulted in another improper FITTING session. Unbelieveable. The person doing that fitting said it was normal to have glasses make your vision WORSE at first and to wear them for two weeks anyway. All that did was give me major eye strain and now I cannot see with or without glasses. Soooo, that got me declared visually impaired by Easter Seals this morning, which – this is crazy – makes me eligible for MORE stuff than just the PTSD. Okay, so, like, if I get better vision back later, which I expect I will, this is a pretty good deal in the long run. Everything this year that first looks tragic turns golden! EVERYTHING! I am loving this year!

 

When I didn't have a coat and even when it first got cold, so cold it hurt, I just stood in the cold calmly and KNEW that either a coat would be supplied, or somehow the painful cold would lead to something that would make it worth it. It is just how this year goes, if I don't panic, don't complain, and WAIT. I got a coat. :hurray: I love my coat and pants! Thanks!

 

I'm good. Bad stuff happens, but it is like water than rolls off a duck's back, no matter what it is. I'm not manic. No one can maintain mania this long and stay this productive. I am just high on life. People are scratching their heads at me, trying to figure this out. It makes no sense by normie standards, but I'm no normie, so... this is just how being 50 is playing out for ME. I still have a couple months. This year has been the fastest, most incredible ride, yet.

 

I think college is going to be really really good! The college seems to like me. They know what crap I bring, and they just keep saying how much they want me there and for me to succeed. They are okay even about the seizures and just put a plan in place to deal with them when they happen. So, like, all the security guys now know my name. All my tests are going to be in the disability department.

 

I think that about covers what I would want to say in public. I love you all, but, the issue still remains that makes PM not a great idea. There was an issue last week. :banghead: :ack2: :angry: But *I* am good. I just don't want this to leak onto anyone else from here.

 

Happy New Year everyone! I was under the confetti and watching the fireworks for New Years. By myself, in the freezing cold, but definitely not feeling sorry for myself. I stood there looking up at the sky and fireworks and couldn't believe how alive and how lucky I felt. The biting cold and being alone in the crowd only made me feel more alive. I was giggling in joy, and turning in circles, taking it all in and wondering what adventures THIS year will bring. Being alive feels so good. Sometimes just merely breathing and feeling a big lungful of air. The cold lungfuls are even more intense.

 

Thanks Slache!

Yay for coat and pants! Yay for joy! Yay for good year! I agree about roots out of context. Have you read Fluent Forever?

[TheAttachedMama]

Anyone mention yet that MP made the English grammar Recitation series to fit with the Latin series to supply the English grammar? 

 

(and Hunter I am glad things are looking up for you.)

 

Yes, I am glad you brought that up.

Even Memoria Press doesn't use Latin alone to teach grammar.   (And their Latin programs are very grammar intensive!)

They have their own English grammar program that roughly lines up with what they are learning in Latin.   And in their core programs, kids complete another simple grammar workbook assignment for extra practice.    However, MPs English Grammar program is very light and quick when compared to TWTM.    The focus is more on helping kids apply/transfer the concepts they have learned in Latin to their English writing.  (Just in case they don't make those connections themselves.)     (To get an idea of the full picture of how MP Latin teaches, it is best to look at one of their core guides so you can see everything they are doing in the various grades.)   

 

In TWTM model, English grammar is a focus and Latin is treated more as an elective IMHO.   Whereas according to the MP recommended schedule, kids should spend about an hour per day studying Latin and then only 10-15 minutes learning to apply those concepts to English Grammar.   (The focus in on Latin and Engish grammar is much lighter.)  MP's model of instruction is more old school.   Probably closer to the way C.S. Lewis or Tolkien would have been educated.   The focus is on Latin, Myth, Fairy Tale, nature, and western culture.   Whereas TWTM is focused more on English grammar, the trivium, the 4 year history cycle, etc.   (I don't know which is better.  That is above my pay grade!   I'm just comparing.)

[Hunter]

I don't think there is a "better". Just different roads that lead to the same place or some other place.

 

Right now, I have read more of the Benny Lewis stuff than the Fluent Forever stuff. I am having to be careful not to spend too much time on theory as it interferes with the time I could be spending actually learning.

 

I am hitting the Spanish REALLY hard! A couple times I have not left my room the whole day, and in an 18 hour period did nothing but study, take a quick shower, and eat whatever scraps of food that were already here, leaving the dishes on the floor to make sure I didn't get them mixed up with all my papers and books.

 

I had a chance to speak a little Spanish with a friend this morning, and had the opportunity to get it confirmed, that yes, I told the weekend janitor that I was "hot" in a very explicit and inappropriate way. The weekend janitor would not explain, but just blushed badly and told me firmly not to say that again. My friend talked quite a bit about the different ways to talk about being hot and it being hot. I think I am more confused than ever. So we need to add the whole formal and informal thing and three different verbs and then the explicit stuff on top what is already a mess. 

 

Classical languages are so much safer! I miss that! This Spanish stuff is a whole lot of NOT safe, in so so so SOOOO many ways. 

 

 

 

 

[Hunter]

Some of you ladies are doing Spanish, too, right?

 

Have you checked your library online subscriptions and seen if the capital city and/or neighboring towns offer free cards that give you more? Some libraries have online Muzzy, now. The city north of me has online Muzzy. It is stupid, but a nice supplement, even for me.

 

Many libraries have Gale courses and the Speed Spanish is good for mom and teens, but not the little guys. Gale's Speed Spanish uses the same method that Spanish with Paul uses in his ten-part free youtube mini course. You are taught a bunch of starter phrases that set you up to use infinitive verbs to drastically reduce the need to conjugate verbs.

 

Ogden is the first person I know to play around with ideas to reduce the need to teach a lot of verb tenses to beginners.

 

http://ogden.basic-english.org/verbs.html

 

http://ogden.basic-english.org

 

Spanish with Paul PART ONE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Hunter

[mamamoose]

Memoria Press Latin is meant to be used with their grammar, and together it is excellent grammar training. Additionally we do Fix-It Grammer each Fall.