SAT more than once with selective schools?

[omd21]

DD took the SAT in 7th grade, and scored higher than 85% of high school students in Math and Writing, a bit lower in Critical Reading.

 

She is now in 9th grade, and we are thinking about when to have her take the SAT and ACT again.

 

She is aiming for selective schools, and we are going to be needing merit aid. She'll likely major in a math or science.

 

So our question is, how do selective colleges view taking the SAT more than once, and when should we have her take it again? Should we aim for taking it just once and prepping really well, or is it better to plan on taking it more than once?

 

I think if we wait as long as possible she'll have a higher chance of improving her Critical Reading score, but I'm also worried that the Math covered on the SAT will be far behind her.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

 

[omd21]

Also, I'm having her take the AMC this February and she's in a math competition team this year. If there is anything else I should be doing to help her, please let me know. :)

[regentrude]

I would have her take it in winter of 10th or fall of 11th grade, so that she has an opportunity to retake if she is not satisfied.

The 7th grade scores are not reported, so the colleges won't know she took it then. Also, that really does not count against the student.

[wapiti]

A student can take the test as many times as she wants.  It is not unusual for a student to take it 2-3 times.  More than three times seems to be frowned upon, but I'm not sure whether it's an actual detriment in admissions.

 

There are a few selective schools that request all SAT (or ACT) scores to be sent.  Many of those same schools will superscore, i.e. take the highest score from math and the highest EBRW from the group of SAT scores the student has submitted.  Other schools may allow Score Choice, where a student can choose which set of SAT scores to send.  Some both superscore and allow score choice.

 

IMO it is best to take it well-prepped, hoping to be done with just one.  Then take it again if the student thinks she can do better a second time.

 

A decent amount of prep should address any issues with being far ahead in math.  The SAT tests up through Algebra 2, IIRC, with some trig.

 

Our test plan:  my junior took SAT in August, for the first time, following a few test strategy sessions with a tutor.  We don't have the scores yet, but she will take it again in October, just a few days before the PSAT.  (Two birds/one stone - SAT prep and PSAT prep are the same although the PSAT sections are shorter length.)  Then if she's still not satisfied, she has nearly a year to take it again, though she'd really prefer to be done as she has a few APs and SAT2 subject tests planned for May/June.

 

National Merit Scholarships are based on the PSAT in 11th grade only.

 

Also note that the SAT changed in March 2016.  I would suggest not using old prep materials.

 

ETA, also while the essay is optional, a few highly-selective schools and other random schools still require it, though fewer than in the past.  I would suggest doing the essay portion just in case any of those schools end up on the final application list.

Edited September 7, 2017 by wapiti

[omd21]

I would have her take it in winter of 10th or fall of 11th grade.

Thank you so much, regentrude. This falls in line with what I thought. What do you suggest for a solid prep?

 

It is not unusual for a student to take it 2-3 times.

 

IMO it is best to take it well-prepped, hoping to be done with just one.  

 

A decent amount of prep should address any issues with being far ahead in math. 

 

Our test plan:  my junior took SAT in August, for the first time, 

 

Thank you so much, wapiti. This is exactly the information I needed. I agree that I'd rather have her take it with as much prep as possible and hopefully only once. I think we'll aim for August before 11th grade, since that will give us the summer to get ready.

 

Any recommendations on a good prep program? How far in advance did you start?

Edited September 8, 2017 by odalysmd21

[GoodGrief]

You'd certainly want her to take it again if her only exam was 7th grade.

 

My second daughter took both the PSAT and SAT in fall of junior year, for efficiency's sake. It's very easy to prep for both simultaneously, and doing it in the fall gives the student the summer to study. If the SAT falls in a range you/she consider acceptable, she is done well before senior year! If not, she has plenty of time for another go at it. One thing to consider if you are thinking about a spring test date is that there is lots of other academic stuff going on then, and AP exams are generally looming. Some colleges will want all her scores; others allow her to send select scores.

 

One of my daughters did a local SAT prep class. The other used various prep books and Prep Scholar. The most important thing is that she do plenty of practice tests.

 

 

[regentrude]

Thank you so much, regentrude. This falls in line with what I thought. What do you suggest for a solid prep?

 

Any recommendations on a good prep program? How far in advance did you start?

 

My DD used the blue SAT prep book published by the College Board. I assume there is now a new one for the changed SAT.

She started about three weeks before and prepped for a little bit each day. The main preparation was a solid long term education in English and math; the test prep just familiarized her with the format and possible questions and gave her speed practice.

 

The January/February test dates worked well for us, because that allowed the kids to use the tail end of Christmas break and the early part of the year. Both would not have wanted to spend their summer prepping for the tests.

[wapiti]

FWIW, there are no longer any SAT dates in Jan/Feb.
 

Any recommendations on a good prep program? How far in advance did you start?

 

I think this will depend on the student, just like a curriculum choice.  My kiddo was going to take an in-person class but it was cancelled.  Ultimately, I think the tutor was probably the most efficient way to go for her, though she could have used a bit more practice on the strategies the tutor taught her.  They only met for a couple of hours for a few weeks in a row right before the official test.  She had a little bit of homework after each session and one full practice test, really not anywhere close to the tons of practice I see other kids doing, but for her, the most important need is speed and a few strategies specific to this test.  She also did one full test prior to starting with the tutor to look for weak areas.  We will wait to see scores and then decide whether to do a few more tutoring sessions before the next test.  She is unlikely to aim for Ivy-level, though regardless, higher scores are always helpful, and I'll be happy as long as her score reflects her ability as I believe it to be.

To start with, some months prior to the actual test, I would choose one of the practice tests on Kahn (I believe tests #5-8 were real prior administrations, whereas tests #1-4 were not) though if you can get your hands on a paper copy of those actual administrations in a book from CB, I think that's more realistic than taking the test on the computer (maybe it can be printed out someplace).  Then see how she does.  Maybe she won't need much prep other than a little bit of practice.

 

The tutor (we used princeton review) was of the opinion that any practice/class/tutoring should back up right to the test date because kids forget/get out of practice if there's too much time lag.  I think that's because the strategies taught by the tutor need to be remembered, and perhaps that's not relevant for the student who naturally scores very high and won't need time-saving strategies.

[Arcadia]

To start with, some months prior to the actual test, I would choose one of the practice tests on Khan (I believe tests #5-8 were real prior administrations, whereas tests #1-4 were not) though if you can get your hands on a paper copy of those actual administrations in a book from CB, I think that's more realistic than taking the test on the computer (maybe it can be printed out someplace).

 

The tutor (we used princeton review) was of the opinion that any practice/class/tutoring should back up right to the test date because kids forget/get out of practice if there's too much time lag. I think that's because the strategies taught by the tutor need to be remembered, and perhaps that's not relevant for the student who naturally scores very high and won't need time-saving strategies.

The PDFs of the 8 practice tests are here. I printed out for my younger boy who is faster on computer so that he can practice more on paper.

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/sat/practice/full-length-practice-tests

 

Prep before the test date is good for my kids because it builds up the adrenaline for the test. It is not so much about remembering strategies as it is about that adrenaline kick. Prepping too early is like having a cheerleading session, and then a long intermission before the soccer game starts, so exasperating for my kids. My oldest who is good at test taking just need less lead time than my youngest.

 

For someone with test anxiety, slow and steady would work better than doing what my kids did for test prep.

 

As for selective schools, those I checked are ignoring middle school scores taken for talent search. I did keep my kids scores but it won't count towards number of times taken by the schools. Kids will retake in 11th grade to have a recent score and in case kids do well for PSAT.

 

ETA:

Both kids took the new SAT in June 2016, November 2016 and June 2017. Older took once and younger took twice under Talent Search.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Arcadia

[wapiti]

Also, for any lurkers, not only might middle school talent search testing be ignored, but some schools are no longer accepting the Old SAT.

[omd21]

The PDFs of the 8 practice tests are here. I printed out for my younger boy who is faster on computer so that he can practice more on paper.

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/sat/practice/full-length-practice-tests

 

Prep before the test date is good for my kids because it builds up the adrenaline for the test. 

Thank you, Arcadia. This is really helpful. Prepping closer to the test might prove better for us as well; she's generally not anxious about testing, and she'll have other testing experiences before Junior year, such as SAT subject tests.

[omd21]

My second daughter took both the PSAT and SAT in fall of junior year, for efficiency's sake. ...One thing to consider if you are thinking about a spring test date is that there is lots of other academic stuff going on then, and AP exams are generally looming. 

Thank you, Gr8lander. We have been checking out Prep Scholar online. I agree that the Fall might be better, as she'll have AP tests to think about in the Spring.

 

I also notice that her productivity is higher in the Fall, by the end of Spring, she's usually ready to be done and wanting to move on to other projects / classes, and focus might not be as sharp as in the beginning of the year. ;)

 

The main preparation was a solid long term education in English and math.

Absolutely, regentrude, I completely agree. That is our priority here as well, but she is without a doubt, asynchronous and more advanced and talented in Math than she is with languages. I'm hoping the next couple of years will help bridge that gap maturity-wise.

 

To start with, some months prior to the actual test, I would choose one of the practice tests on Kahn (I believe tests #5-8 were real prior administrations, whereas tests #1-4 were not) though if you can get your hands on a paper copy of those actual administrations in a book from CB, I think that's more realistic than taking the test on the computer (maybe it can be printed out someplace).  Then see how she does.  Maybe she won't need much prep other than a little bit of practice.

 

The tutor (we used princeton review) was of the opinion that any practice/class/tutoring should back up right to the test date because kids forget/get out of practice if there's too much time lag.  I think that's because the strategies taught by the tutor need to be remembered, and perhaps that's not relevant for the student who naturally scores very high and won't need time-saving strategies.

Thank you! This so helpful.

[Arcadia]

Prepping closer to the test might prove better for us as well; she's generally not anxious about testing, and she'll have other testing experiences before Junior year, such as SAT subject tests.

Oldest boy did SAT subject tests prep after his AP exams ended so May 2017 ended up being test prep season for us this year. We'll do the same next year of taking the June date for SAT subject tests and prepping after the AP exams are over. Both my kids complained about flipping through the SAT subject tests exam booklet to locate the tests they are sitting for. Oldest boy took math 2 and physics subject tests on the same day.

 

As for forgetting the math, oldest did one practice test and had finished precalculus a month before he took the new SAT. He did well enough on the math section of the new SAT. Youngest boy has retention issues for every subject so we did test prep for two weeks (10 days) before the test and he remembered everything he had learned but temporarily forgotten. He did very well the second time for both English and Math after finishing intermediate algebra and knowing what the SAT exam is like in terms of time constraints. He is a slower worker than my older.

[RootAnn]

To piggyback on the test prep comments, use the link Arcadia provided to print out a practice test from Khan's site. Get your kid a Khan account (just for this, if they don't already have one). When they are done taking the practice test under as close to real testing conditions as you can get (just the listed break times, only snacking/bathroom at breaktimes), put the answers into Khan yourself. This will score it for you (although I scored it by hand to double check), but it will also show Khan's system the type of questions that your kid missed and needs more practice on. Khan has test prep - and it helps, to a certain degree, although not for tippy-top scoring kids. I'd definitely start there & see what types of questions (esp. math) that she missed.

 

I'd make her go through the explanations (over a couple of days after the test - my kid is always exhausted after taking a full test) on the questions she missed. I also have my kid mark the questions she was unsure of - so if she guessed correctly, she can see if her reasoning is correct or if she just got lucky. (She marks with a question mark on the actual test sheets. I print her a bubble sheet to fill in & she doesn't mark on those other than bubbling. But, you could do it either way. There is a link to the bubble sheets in the link already provided. If you can't find it, let me know & I'll link to it directly.)

 

My DD#1 isn't a tippy top student like many on here. She's an average kid with some fun and awesome pointy edges (math & foreign language). However, she's a good test taker for her academic level and just took the SAT for the first time in August. We are waiting for her scores as she's determined to do last minute prep for the PSAT in October. She wouldn't ever score high enough to make NM in Virginia or New Jersey, but we don't live in a super high scoring state, so she's hoping to get there with lots of hard work, determination, stubbornness, and a "good day."  :wub:  

 

If you choose to prep on your own, the Hive has some good prep book recommendations. Best of luck to yours! We, the Hive parents, will be rooting for you both. The High School board is a wonderful education and support structure for when she makes her list of colleges, narrows it down, and when you are working on your part of applications. Don't forget to get started on the transcript and course descriptions freshman year. The pinned threads at the top of the forum are a wealth of information. A glass of wine or a cup of tea are mandatory when sitting down with them.  :ph34r:

[GoodGrief]

Like Arcadia, my second daughter (I always reference her because the older did not do much as far as standardized testing) always had AP exams in May, and we used the June testing date for SAT subject tests (she did a total of four, following her freshman and sophomore years.) October was for the PSAT freshman-junior year (though she only prepped for the junior year sitting), and as I said in the other post, she took the SAT in October of junior year.

 

A young man I've been assisting just used Khan Academy for his SAT prep with fantastic results, so it's definitely worth looking at. As long as your student has a decent foundation and is generally a good test taker, I'm not so sure that it matters terribly which program/book she uses for prep.

[omd21]

Oldest boy took math 2 and physics subject tests on the same day.

 

oldest did one practice test and had finished precalculus a month before he took the new SAT. 

Thank you. How did he like taking math and physics on the same day? DD will have finished Calculus by the time she starts prepping for the SAT. I'm planning on having her take the SAT Math 2 in June of this year after pre-cal. 

 

When they are done taking the practice test under as close to real testing conditions ... put the answers into Khan yourself. This will score it for you 

 

 also have my kid mark the questions she was unsure of   

 

 We, the Hive parents, will be rooting for you both. The High School board is a wonderful education and support structure for when she makes her list of colleges, narrows it down, and when you are working on your part of applications. Don't forget to get started on the transcript and course descriptions freshman year. The pinned threads at the top of the forum are a wealth of information. A glass of wine or a cup of tea are mandatory when sitting down with them.  :ph34r:

Thank you so much, your response is so sweet and supportive. I don't post much but I know I couldn't do any of this without what I've read and learned from the hive  :001_smile: I already have a transcript and a resume made on Excel. I am going to get started on course descriptions in the next week or so. At the moment I'm not overwhelmed but I am trying to get a hold on all the new dates, test deadlines, etc. I will be picking everyone's brain on making a list of possible schools. 

 

I'll be rooting for your DD as she awaits her test results! She sounds like a very determined girl!

 

...we used the June testing date for SAT subject tests

 

A young man I've been assisting just used Khan Academy for his SAT prep with fantastic results

Thank you Gr8lander! She's taking the SAT subject test in Latin this December in the middle of AP Latin, and probably the SAT subject test for Math 2 in June of 2018 after pre-cal, then we'll see where we go from there.

[Arcadia]

How did he like taking math and physics on the same day? DD will have finished Calculus by the time she starts prepping for the SAT. I'm planning on having her take the SAT Math 2 in June of this year after pre-cal.

Two SAT subject tests is still shorter than the general SAT so he didn't mind. He finished his SAT subject tests and then sit around next to us and played on his phone while waiting for my younger boy to come out from the general SAT.

 

Oldest took Math 2 after AP Calculus BC as a 7th grader because he took the new SAT after precalculus as a 6th grader and we wanted the June dates so as to not clash with his Saturday German school class. There wasn't an August date last year or he would have taken the Math 2 in August 2016.

 

As for prep wise, the subject test only took an hour to finish a practice test. So two hours and a little bit more per day to finish the Barron's book for math 2 and physics. After spending 3hrs plus per set on AP exam practice, the 2hrs prep per day to cover two subjects wasn't so bad. We did test prep at the library for air-conditioned comfort as May/June can be very hot here. We choose Barron's because it has the most practice tests (6 practice tests and 1 diagnostic test) and we used the library copies. He has perfect scores for both and we wrote Collegeboard to keep his scores.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Arcadia

[omd21]

Two SAT subject tests is still shorter than the general SAT so he didn't mind. He finished his SAT subject tests and then sit around next to us and played on his phone while waiting for my younger boy to come out from the general SAT.

I didn't realize that an AP test is 3 hours long vs. 1 hour for the SAT subject test. I'm glad to hear two back to back SAT subject tests is doable, although your kids sound exceptional.

 

Thank you for letting me know Barron's worked well for your kids to attain perfect scores, we'll definitely keep those books in our arsenal.

[wapiti]

nm 

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by wapiti

[Arcadia]

Thank you for letting me know Barron's worked well for your kids to attain perfect scores, we'll definitely keep those books in our arsenal.

Barron's test prep books are kind of over prepping. We met ex-colleagues at the test site also waiting for their kids. The consensus from the kids was that Barron's make it so much harder that the actual test becomes not scary by comparison. Most kids after the tests would recommend using Princeton Review for first round test prep and then using Barron's when you run out of practice tests to use. Princeton Review is closer to the actual test difficulty.

 

If you want actual SAT Math 2 tests to practice, it is worth borrowing this book through inter library loan or do it at Barnes & Noble cafe while sipping a drink. When we borrowed the older book, there was only two tests but now there is four in the new book. It is brand new and I just browsed it at Barnes & Noble last weekend.

 

The Official SAT Subject Test in Mathematics Level 2 Study Guide Paperback – September 5, 2017

by The College Board https://www.amazon.com/Official-Subject-Mathematics-Level-Study/dp/1457309327

 

My younger boy is not as strong a test taker as my older boy and he is aiming for engineering schools. So I am really on the ball for test prep for him. My older boy is the guinea pig taking the exams first and telling us all the tips and tricks to help the younger boy score better. My firstborn is really sweet about it and we are thankful.

[omd21]

My younger boy is not as strong a test taker as my older boy and he is aiming for engineering schools. So I am really on the ball for test prep for him. My older boy is the guinea pig taking the exams first and telling us all the tips and tricks to help the younger boy score better. My firstborn is really sweet about it and we are thankful.

One of the best parts of homeschooling is the bonds that are formed between siblings; it's so sweet to see the older ones guiding the littles. :)

 

You've given me so much to think about. I'll be referring back to this thread for all of you ladies' input.

[Arcadia]

Also, I'm having her take the AMC this February and she's in a math competition team this year. If there is anything else I should be doing to help her, please let me know. :)

  

Work through past papers for AMC 10 and AMC 12 as math enrichment. My oldest say to improve on discrete math skills. He is hoping to make AIME again. Also take both AMC10 and AMC12, since your child can take AMC 10A on one day and AMC 12B on the other.

 

daijobu has lots of posts on AMC and other math contests prep.

 

AMC 10 https://artofproblemsolving.com/wiki/index.php?title=AMC_10_Problems_and_Solutions

AMC 12 https://artofproblemsolving.com/wiki/index.php?title=AMC_12_Problems_and_Solutions

 

nm

My good test taker suffers from allergies and made the mistake of 1 hour equals 60 seconds twice in physics homework. Allergy season is upon us which means staying indoors as much as possible :( We have to plan test dates around allergy seasons too and hope for the best so January and April are the worst months for tests, apparently late August/early September is another time period to avoid. We need the rain here. My younger boy's allergy is less bad but he still uses up boxes of Kleenex.

[omd21]

  

Work through past papers for AMC 10 and AMC 12 as math enrichment. My oldest say to improve on discrete math skills. 

My good test taker suffers from allergies 

Will do. Glad you covered this because my next question was going to be whether to take the AMC 10 or the AMC 12.

 

About allergies, you might have tried this already but, I suffered from seasonal allergies for the past seven years: impacted sinuses, extremely swollen eyes, out of commission completely for three months in the Spring. No medicine would make a difference.

 

Arcadia, this past year I barely had any allergies at all. I found a supplement called "Super Quercetin" by a brand called "Blue Bonnet", but there's other brands as well. I started taking it in the beginning of March before allergy season was in full swing, and although I had minor symptoms, I did not have congested sinuses or swollen eyes, etc and I was able to lead a normal life. I was 90% better. I would always ask a doctor before I'd start taking a supplement, but ours said it was ok for me as well as my DD.

 

It has to be taken consistently, every day, and takes a few weeks to work.

 

This coming year, in addition to the quercetin, a naturopath advised me to take 1 tbsp of local wildflower honey daily, starting the month before allergy season. The honey is supposed to contain antibodies (?) or help to strengthen the immune system since it is made of the same pollen that is causing the allergies. It's not to be cooked or put into hot tea, but taken raw to retain its properties.

 

Anyway, I thought I'd pass that along. I was desperate and this has been like a miracle for me.

Edited September 9, 2017 by odalysmd21

[Arcadia]

Glad you covered this because my next question was going to be whether to take the AMC 10 or the AMC 12.

My kids had been taking the AMCs for the past two years for fun. They didn't think they could qualify for AIME so we never looked at the criteria until after my oldest qualified this February based on his AMC10 and AMC12 scores.

 

Based on the criteria, I would say go for both because no harm done and your child get some bubble coloring (scantron) practice. A student ID or any photo ID is required if taking outside of school. My kids took at a local university as the AMCs were hosted by their math circle staff and my kids use their passports as photo ID. Some public school kids also took there as their school may not host both AMC10 and AMC12.

 

To qualify for AIME

". All students who took the AMC 12 and achieved a score of 100 or more out of a possible 150 or were in the top 5% are invited to take the AIME. All students who took the AMC 10 and had a score of 120 or more out of a possible 150, or were in the top 2.5% also qualify for the AIME. "

https://www.maa.org/math-competitions/american-invitational-mathematics-examination-aime

 

Thanks for the allergy supplements information. I'll check it out. My side of the family has asthma (likely hereditary) so most of us have suffered through allergies since we were toddlers. It's likely the ragweed allergy this time of year because the worse days coincide with high volume of ragweed days.

 

ETA:

We sneeze like crazy outside the library but did not sneeze inside the library all day. Then sneezing again when we leave the library. So we suspect we are sensitive to certain shrubs outside the main entrance. We don't have that problem with the side/back entrance which has no greenery.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Arcadia

[mumto2]

Also, I'm having her take the AMC this February and she's in a math competition team this year. If there is anything else I should be doing to help her, please let me know. :)

A couple of quick AMC and AIME thoughts. My dc's found the past papers really helpful. They normally did several past papers with their team....it ended up being one good friend from their mathcounts team. Going over the problems was great and fascinating. I loved hearing how differently they all solved the same problem.

 

They also liked to use Alcumus for prep. For them it free time fun, sort of like video games for many. :lol: They enjoyed it. I would start with Alcumus now and introduce the past papers in a couple of months.

 

Sign her up for both the AMC 10 and 12. The coordinator that worked with us said many who do both advance to AIME via AMC 12 not 10, she strongly advised both exams.

[omd21]

A couple of quick AMC and AIME thoughts. 

Thank you so much, mumto2! We already use Alcumus on a regular basis for fun and to review past concepts. Today she also started looking at past exams on her own.

[daijobu]

 

Sign her up for both the AMC 10 and 12. The coordinator that worked with us said many who do both advance to AIME via AMC 12 not 10, she strongly advised both exams.

 

So do they allow students to take the AMC 10 and the AMC 12 on the same day?  

[Arcadia]

So do they allow students to take the AMC 10 and the AMC 12 on the same day?

It's not allowed for the same student. But there is A and B so the student can pick one for A date and another for the B date.

 

"AMC 10/12 A and B Dates:

There are four different exams offered: AMC 10A, AMC 12A, AMC 10B, and AMC 12B. There are some overlapping questions on the AMC 10 and AMC 12, so if a school is offering both competitions on a given day, they must be given at the same time. For this same reason, a student may only take one examination per exam date. If they meet the age and grade requirements, students are permitted to take both an A version of an exam and a B version of either exam. For example, students can take the AMC 10A and AMC 12B, or the AMC 10A and AMC 10B, but may not take the AMC 10A and AMC 12A. Your school can register for all four competitions if they choose, which can be helpful for providing an alternate date for students."

 

Page 2 of 7 https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/2017AMC10.12-TeachersManual.pdf

Edited September 12, 2017 by Arcadia