Physics before Calculus?

[OnMyOwn]

My dd has been using DO calculus and she is mildly frustrated at times that he is teaching using examples from physics because she hasn't taken physics yet. I asked Derek about this and he said some schools require students to take physics at the same time as calculus. While I don't think it is required to take physics before calculus, I can definitely see where it would be helpful. My dd is going to be taking physics at a local coop this year using Apologia, but if I had understood the close relationship between the two subjects, I would have had her take physics instead of chemistry last year.

 

I've never seen this discussed before. The only thing I remember people talking about is whether a student should take algebra-based physics vs. calculus-based physics or both. I'd love to hear thoughts about how beneficial it is to take physics at the same time or before calculus and what other people have had their students do.

[Arcadia]

My dd has been using DO calculus and she is mildly frustrated at times that he is teaching using examples from physics because she hasn't taken physics yet.

...

 

Did your daughter take physical science in middle school, typically at 8th grade for public schools here? Biology is typical 9th grade here, then chemistry or physic in 10th. So physics would be done before calculus or concurrently with calculus in 11th grade. I am assuming that DO uses a typical public school calculus textbook so having physics examples won't be surprising.

I'd love to hear thoughts about how beneficial it is to take physics at the same time or before calculus and what other people have had their students do.

 

My oldest did

- Clover Creek Physics with AoPS intermediate algebra, intro to geometry and precalculus. The intermediate algebra and intro to geometry was a continuation from the previous academic year. So three math in two years

- no formal physics (just leisure reading and videos) and AoPS Calculus followed by taking the AP Calculus BC exam

- physics C this year, undecided about which math course

 

He gets stuck on physics partially due to his math. So it becomes getting ahead in math to do physics and then getting ahead in physics and needing more math. Round and around we go with these two subjects.

 

My younger boy is also getting his math foundation for physics and he uses the AoPS books and classes for math.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Arcadia

[EKS]

I am very familiar with the DO calculus course.  The examples from physics do not require the student to have had physics and the sorts of problems DO explores in the course are similar to those likely to be on the AP exam.

 

That said, the first chapter of the calculus course will be easier if the student has had physics.

[Mike in SA]

Precalculus is chock full of examples from physics, as well.  I look at it this way: it will make physics easier later.

 

The volume of physics problems in calculus shouldn't be a surprise, btw.  After all, Newton created it in support his studies of mechanics (no disrespect to Leibniz, whose approach was in studies of areas, etc, also prominent in calculus examples today).

[regentrude]

I would think a student who had physical science in middle school should be able to understand the connections a calculus course makes between physics and calc. Typically, those would be relationships between position, velocity and acceleration. I would expect a student to be familiar with those quantities by the time they reach calculus.

 

Studying calculus and physics simultaneously is certainly beneficial. It would, however, require a physics course that is specifically designed to have calc as a co-requisite, not as a prerequisite. It requires a lot of time time during the first weeks to teach the calculus that is required during the first two weeks of a calculus based physics course. Taking algebra based physics simultaneously with calculus is not terribly helpful, IMO. 

 

I personally prefer to teach physics as the first high school science; my kids took algebra/trig based physics in 8th/9th grade. Then, they have a good physics grounding for calculus and can later reinforce that with calc based physics.

Edited August 27, 2017 by regentrude

[SoCal_Bear]

I thought it was pretty helpful to do it concurrently when I studied both. I was also sitting for the AP for both at the time.

[EKS]

I found that the best thing about taking algebra-based physics before calculus-based physics was that it made me appreciate the elegance of the latter.  

 

That said, my son is taking AP Calculus BC this year and will be taking AP Physics C next year without having had much in the way of physics previously.  The other choice at his school was to take conceptual physics either first or by itself, and I didn't think it was worth wasting a period on that. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by EKS

[Alessandra]

I would think a student who had physical science in middle school should be able to understand the connections a calculus course makes between physics and calc. Typically, those would be relationships between position, velocity and acceleration. I would expect a student to be familiar with those quantities by the time they reach calculus.

 

Studying calculus and physics simultaneously is certainly beneficial. It would, however, require a physics course that is specifically designed to have calc as a co-requisite, not as a prerequisite. It requires a lot of time time during the first weeks to teach the calculus that is required during the first two weeks of a calculus based physics course. Taking algebra based physics simultaneously with calculus is not terribly helpful, IMO.

 

I personally prefer to teach physics as the first high school science; my kids took algebra/trig based physics in 8th/9th grade. Then, they have a good physics grounding for calculus and can later reinforce that with calc based physics.

Sounds like our high school. All students take Physical Science in 9th grade, with an Honors option for those who have done well in middle school science (including physical science) AND math. Those who wish to continue in Physics take regular or Honors Physics, with Algebra II as a pre or co requisite. Then AP Physics, with calculus as a pre or co requisite.

 

As Regentrude has often mentioned, math is critical. There are pretty stringent requirements about the grades in the required math courses for those who want Honors physical science or Honors/AP physics.

 

So all students who take calculus (including AP) will gave had physical science, but not all will have had physics beyond physical science.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Alessandra

[OnMyOwn]

Did your daughter take physical science in middle school, typically at 8th grade for public schools here? Biology is typical 9th grade here, then chemistry or physic in 10th. So physics would be done before calculus or concurrently with calculus in 11th grade. I am assuming that DO uses a typical public school calculus textbook so having physics examples won't be surprising.

My oldest did

- Clover Creek Physics with AoPS intermediate algebra, intro to geometry and precalculus. The intermediate algebra and intro to geometry was a continuation from the previous academic year. So three math in two years

- no formal physics (just leisure reading and videos) and AoPS Calculus followed by taking the AP Calculus BC exam

- physics C this year, undecided about which math course

 

He gets stuck on physics partially due to his math. So it becomes getting ahead in math to do physics and then getting ahead in physics and needing more math. Round and around we go with these two subjects.

 

My younger boy is also getting his math foundation for physics and he uses the AoPS books and classes for math.

So you think it is more important to have the math first and then the physics?

[OnMyOwn]

I am very familiar with the DO calculus course. The examples from physics do not require the student to have had physics and the sorts of problems DO explores in the course are similar to those likely to be on the AP exam.

 

That said, the first chapter of the calculus course will be easier if the student has had physics.

Thanks, this is particularly helpful. She did chapter 1 a few weeks ago and then was away at camp for a few weeks and we're getting ready to get started again. I was thinking if the whole course was taught through a "physics lens" it might make more sense to get some physics under her belt first.

[OnMyOwn]

Precalculus is chock full of examples from physics, as well. I look at it this way: it will make physics easier later.

 

The volume of physics problems in calculus shouldn't be a surprise, btw. After all, Newton created it in support his studies of mechanics (no disrespect to Leibniz, whose approach was in studies of areas, etc, also prominent in calculus examples today).

Yes, Derek enlightened me about Newton and physics and calculus. I was ignorant about that. When I was in high school, I took through algebra II with trig and then took business calculus in college. I never took physics and there is much I do not know about the topics of physics and calculus. To say the least! Lol!

[OnMyOwn]

 

I personally prefer to teach physics as the first high school science; my kids took algebra/trig based physics in 8th/9th grade. Then, they have a good physics grounding for calculus and can later reinforce that with calc based physics.

This is exactly what I was wishing we had done. My dd will be taking algebra-based physics at the same time as calculus and I'm sure it will be fine, but the timing of physics in relation to calculus isn't something I had considered before.

[OnMyOwn]

Sounds like our high school. All students take Physical Science in 9th grade, with an Honors option for those who have done well in middle school science (including physical science) AND math. Those who wish to continue in Physics take regular or Honors Physics, with Algebra II as a pre or co requisite. Then AP Physics, with calculus as a pre or co requisite.

 

As Regentrude has often mentioned, math is critical. There are pretty stringent requirements about the grades in the required math courses for those who want Honors physical science or Honors/AP physics.

 

So all students who take calculus (including AP) will gave had physical science, but not all will have had physics beyond physical science.

My plan was for chemistry, algebra-based physics, biology and one AP-level science in whatever area my dd is the most interested. I had asked on these boards a few years ago how necessary physical science was in middle school for success in high school science and got a "not necessary" response, so my dd did not do physical science. I never thought about the timing of science, though, in relation to calculus. Edited August 27, 2017 by OnMyOwn

[OnMyOwn]

I thought it was pretty helpful to do it concurrently when I studied both. I was also sitting for the AP for both at the time.

Did you do algebra-based physics or calculus-based physics when you studied it?

[Arcadia]

So you think it is more important to have the math first and then the physics?

For my kids, laying the math foundation for physics and chemistry was useful. I wasn't educated in the states and math was always a step ahead of the core sciences even for biology which has less math.

 

My oldest said that some of the algebra based physics questions is easier solved with calculus.

 

ETA:

Mine was conceptual physics 7th/8th, algebra based 9th/10th, calculus based 11th/12th. Math was multivariable calculus for 11th/12th. My kids are following a similar path/sequence.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Arcadia

[Alessandra]

My plan was for chemistry, algebra-based physics, biology and one AP-level science in whatever area my dd is the most interested. I had asked on these boards a few years ago how necessary physical science was in middle school for success in high school science and got a "not necessary" response, so my dd did not do physical science. I never thought about the timing of science, though, in relation to calculus.

I'm not an expert, and I didn't want to give the impression that our public school's way is the best way. Just one example of how some schools do it. Do schools in your area post their curriculum sequences? I love looking at curricula (weird, I know) and find so many different approaches. A lot of top private schools have informative websites too.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Alessandra

[gstharr]

 I was planning on having the 7th grader start precal next month.  But, taking physics first is interesting (can't take concurrently because he is  at grade level at school).  Might be a good break after 4 years of year round after school math. 

[daijobu]

My dd is taking AP physics C and AP calc BC concurrently this year.  But we did a bit of self-study using AoPS calculus last spring, so she's had some exposure to derivatives and integrals, but mostly spent time on proofs, lol.  She hasn't had any high school level physics.  

 

I would think a few Crash Course physics videos might bring your dd up to speed.  

[OnMyOwn]

My dd is taking AP physics C and AP calc BC concurrently this year. But we did a bit of self-study using AoPS calculus last spring, so she's had some exposure to derivatives and integrals, but mostly spent time on proofs, lol. She hasn't had any high school level physics.

 

I would think a few

might bring your dd up to speed.

Thanks! She's used the Crash Course videos in the past and really liked them, so I will mention those to her.