Packaging a math and science kid who wants to go away to college early... Help!

[JenneinCA]

I have a problem or rather my son has a problem and I need some other views in dealing with it.

 

Son is currently 16 years old. He started at the local community college two years ago at the age of 14 after taking and passing the CHPSE (California High School Proficiency Exam) in June. He enjoyed the fact that he had classmates and teachers that knew more about subjects than I did. In short he loved it. But it was easy. He was offered a job in the tutoring center after that first semester and has been working there ever since. We had to provide different documentation than usual because he was so young. Last semester he tutored the calculus class he was taking! It is still easy.

 

Tonight he surprised us by saying that he wants to apply to colleges now for entry next fall. This is a full year ahead of the schedule that I had predicted when we started, but he is unchallenged and unhappy with the community college and wants something more interesting and to meet people that are 'like him'.

 

But we have a problem. He doesn't have anything resembling a typical high school transcript. He doesn't have the right courses in the right places. He took classes he wanted to take, mostly math and science. And not English or history. In another two years at the community college he would fill in those holes and be ready to transfer. But not yet and not in just one year. I was waiting for a maturity to handle non-preferred classes because I just couldn't force him to do the work.

 

So his gpa is 3.943. He got a B in trigonometry. And As in everything else. All of it. His ACT is high but not amazing at 32. Sub scores are eng 34, math 28, reading 31, and science 35.

 

He has taken

Trigonometry and Python

College Algebra and Astronomy with lab

Java, Calculus 1, Music Theory, Spanish 1

Data Structures, weight training, Calculus 2, Physics 1 with lab, Spanish 2

 

This semester he is signed up for English, Biology with lab, Mulivariable Calculus, Physics 2 with lab. We were trying to deal with the holes and give him classes he enjoyed.

 

So ideas? He is ready for more. But how do I package him to get into a school he would be happy with?

 

At t

[quark]

Is he considering the UCs?

[JenneinCA]

Is he considering the UCs?

Up until tonight I thought so. But in order for that to work he really really needs to get more of the transfer courses done.

 

I think that the ADHD meds that he got to a good dose this fall is allowing him to actually think and get stuff done and he is seeing that he really can do hard things. Previously he couldn't concentrate long enough to do that.

[quark]

If UC was in the picture, is he thinking of applying as a freshman or a transfer student?

 

Instead of Physics 2, would he be willing to take World or US History? It might be a lot of writing with the English too, I guess. How does he feel about doubling up on English? Is his CC on the semester system? If he took World or US History this coming fall and two English classes the following semester he might still make the UC minimum requirements for freshman admission.

 

Again, if considering freshman admission, another option is to self study SAT subject tests for History (US and World), and take the SAT Lit as well?

 

UCs do seem to like to see students with CC classes so he might still be a competitive freshman applicant but without the English requirements he would have a harder time as a transfer applicant.

 

It might really depend on where he wants to apply to and what he wants to do. Does it have to be a STEM-oriented school?

[JanetC]

For the best selection of schools, I agree wifh quark. Redo the college schedule so you can present 4 years of English, 4 years of math, etc. You can do a homeschool transcript to give him credit for classes taken before he started at the CC. Each college semester counts as one high school year as well.

[JenneinCA]

If UC was in the picture, is he thinking of applying as a freshman or a transfer student?

 

Instead of Physics 2, would he be willing to take World or US History? It might be a lot of writing with the English too, I guess. How does he feel about doubling up on English? Is his CC on the semester system? If he took World or US History this coming fall and two English classes the following semester he might still make the UC minimum requirements for freshman admission.

 

Again, if considering freshman admission, another option is to self study SAT subject tests for History (US and World), and take the SAT Lit as well?

 

UCs do seem to like to see students with CC classes so he might still be a competitive freshman applicant but without the English requirements he would have a harder time as a transfer applicant.

 

It might really depend on where he wants to apply to and what he wants to do. Does it have to be a STEM-oriented school?

He was thinking of going in as a transfer student. He isn't seeing the end of more boring classes that are easy. He wants school to be over so he can do something interesting.

 

About Physics 2, he wants to take that course. Probably more than any other course in his schedule. He keeps hoping it will be something he doesn't already know. He doesn't want to take English at all. The one course he is taking is because he knows that he needs it for any sort of transfer option. He hates writing of papers and literature. He finds it really really difficult to concentrate on those classes. That is why there aren't more of them on his schedule. I can not figure out how to make him want to do them. And history is more of the same problem, papers and random facts that don't stick but are tested on. He can derive most math and science things from first principles but there is no way to do that for a date on a test.

 

Self studying for history would be a great idea, but he would have a horrible time actually doing it. The only times that anything other than math stuck was with a teacher and lots and lots of class participation. That was how he did Spanish. He was motivated by the peer pressure and teacher made it fun. They did skits and conversations and that was the only way it got into his head.

 

He doesn't know where exactly he wants to go, just someplace with people like him and harder more interesting classes. It does need to be a STEM type school. He wants to do computer science and maybe math. And he is good at that and really not interested in anything else.

 

Thank you for thinking with me. I do appreciate your thoughts.

[JenneinCA]

For the best selection of schools, I agree wifh quark. Redo the college schedule so you can present 4 years of English, 4 years of math, etc. You can do a homeschool transcript to give him credit for classes taken before he started at the CC. Each college semester counts as one high school year as well.

I wish I could give him high school credit for English or history before he started at the community college. But I can't. For history, he just didn't do it. And for English, he failed the outsourced class that he took. (He got that 34 English ACT score and failed his year long English class at the same time. He needs the in person teacher interaction and the online course couldn't do that.)

[quark]

He was thinking of going in as a transfer student. He isn't seeing the end of more boring classes that are easy. He wants school to be over so he can do something interesting.

 

About Physics 2, he wants to take that course. Probably more than any other course in his schedule. He keeps hoping it will be something he doesn't already know. He doesn't want to take English at all. The one course he is taking is because he knows that he needs it for any sort of transfer option. He hates writing of papers and literature. He finds it really really difficult to concentrate on those classes. That is why there aren't more of them on his schedule. I can not figure out how to make him want to do them. And history is more of the same problem, papers and random facts that don't stick but are tested on. He can derive most math and science things from first principles but there is no way to do that for a date on a test.

 

Self studying for history would be a great idea, but he would have a horrible time actually doing it. The only times that anything other than math stuck was with a teacher and lots and lots of class participation. That was how he did Spanish. He was motivated by the peer pressure and teacher made it fun. They did skits and conversations and that was the only way it got into his head.

 

He doesn't know where exactly he wants to go, just someplace with people like him and harder more interesting classes. It does need to be a STEM type school. He wants to do computer science and maybe math. And he is good at that and really not interested in anything else.

 

Thank you for thinking with me. I do appreciate your thoughts.

 

I am sorry it's a dilemma. I have a similar kid who did most of high school through CC and felt the same way about how disappointingly easy the math and science classes are but luckily, took a leap of faith and did the humanities gradually, a little at a time, after a first year of just STEM and started realizing how passionate the humanities teachers at the CC were and found some classmates who were similarly passionate and felt driven by that momentum to take more lit and history and excel at them. But I know how resistant some kids can be towards the humanities when they are so enamored by STEM. Mine was luckily willing to try and took off from there.

 

It would be really good for him to take at least one more English class. Would he be willing to research schools and see their requirements and realize for himself that they ask for more English courses? If UC is out, he might have more options with what he has now transferring into liberal arts schools or a school like Santa Clara U but possibly not the more elite STEM schools. See this transfer requirements page from Santa Clara U for example: https://www.scu.edu/admission/undergraduate/transfer-students/qualifying-for-admission/ - they ask for at least 2 English classes.

 

BTW, I am only mentioning Northern CA schools because 1) he is young-ish and 2) I find them easier to research. I know he might be considering schools that are far away too. There might be so many other options to consider. I'd strongly recommend visiting some of the upcoming college fairs if you have not already done so! IIRC, there should be a couple at least coming to the Bay Area about now.

 

Another option might be to not apply to transfer yet but take a few university classes instead. If you live near a state school like San Jose State, he might be able to enroll in a few classes there and experience more challenge that way. I know a couple kids who took classes there while in high school. (Bummer, just saw that SJSU is no longer accepting applications for concurrent enrollment). Mine started taking on-campus classes at Cal through the concurrent enrollment option for high schoolers and found them a lot more worthwhile than CC classes and that bought us some time to insert more humanities from CC (but Cal is expensive when taking classes for credit!). Would you happen to have another concurrent enrollment friendly state school nearby?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Since he has been taking DE classes, what about asking counselors and instructors there for suggestions.  It's possible they won't have worthy suggestions for an out of the box student like your DS, but then again, they might think of programs and approaches that would be a good fit.

 

If he got a 34 on the ACT, what about doing a CLEP test for the purpose of granting him high school credit.  Even if he is not able to get college credit out of the exams, you could state that you recognized high school credit by exam based on the CLEP scores.

 

 

[mumto2]

My ds is also similar. For him Clep exams have been a good fit rather they can be done for college credit or not. Saylor might be another thing to look at https://www.saylor.org. My son has dome some classes there successfully.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'm not sure if this would work in your state but couldn't you just let him test out of certain classes? So Eng 1, 2, 3, (shouldn't be an issue to pass EOC's with a 34 ACT) take a World History and US history EOC if he thinks he could pass or double up on those at home/online then take a test (again EOC or CLEP). If he knows the material why does he have to take a course in it?  Honestly he already has the test scores to get into College, I'd call him graduated and let him move on before he loses motivation. Bright students shouldn't be held back just to check a box, my opinion only of course.

[JanetC]

Are there any other local universities? Perhaps he could enter as a non matriculated student somewhere else and take classes in a more challenging environment?

[katilac]

The CHPSE is the legal equivalent of a diploma, so would he even be able to apply as a first-time freshman? Because the CC courses were taken after he took the test. Going in as a transfer does make it harder to figure out how much merit aid you might get. That's the very first thing I would clarify, so you know how to proceed. 

 

It looks like some of the a-g courses can be satisfied via ACT. Did he take the writing portion? If not, he can retake and should easily satisfy the complete requirements for English (at least at some schools, I'm not sure if this is state-wide or by school): 

 

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/freshman/minimum-requirements/subject-requirement/index.html

 

 

[quark]

The CHPSE is the legal equivalent of a diploma, so would he even be able to apply as a first-time freshman? Because the CC courses were taken after he took the test.

 

Yes, a student can apply as a freshman as long as the homeschooling parent continues to file the private school affidavit or the student remains enrolled in a charter school (but some charters balk because they would not take a "double dipping" student who is considered full time CC as well as enrolled in their charter but they might if the student is only taking a few CC units/ semester, using the CHSPE to give them priority enrollment).

 

From the CHSPE site:

Passing the CHSPE does not, by itself, exempt minors from attending school. Minors who have a Certificate of Proficiency must also have verified parent/guardian permission to stop attending school. Many students who pass the CHSPE continue to attend school. State law provides that, if you leave school after passing the CHSPE and are no more than 18 years old, you may reenroll in the district in which you were registered with no adverse consequences. If you do reenroll you may be required to meet new or additional requirements established since you were previously enrolled. If you reenroll and then leave school again, you may be denied re-admittance until the beginning of the following semester. Contact your guidance counselor or school administrator for further information and details about leaving school after passing the CHSPE.

 

 

Mine took CHSPE and over 60 CC units but remained enrolled in my homeschool private school all the time and was admitted as a freshman at UC Berkeley.

[JenneinCA]

He and the rest of my kids have been on my Private School Affadavit since we moved to California when they were were ten, eight and four (he wasn't on at the beginning, only after he was old enough). His older sister also passed the CHSPE at the same time he did. She is going to Northern Arizona Univeristy in the fall as a freshman with lots of community college credit.

 

He can do that too if he wants. But I can also back date his graduation to when he passed the CHSPE if I want to. We have options.

 

About the ACT writing test... he is not a very good writer. He does not do well in extreme time situations and writing/spelling/penmanship is most definitely not his strong point.

 

He would NOT pass an end-of-course test in history or writing/English at this time. The ACT is multiple choice and that is totally different than a typical test. He is just a very very odd kid. He loves math and science. He loves computers.

[katilac]

 

He would NOT pass an end-of-course test in history or writing/English at this time. The ACT is multiple choice and that is totally different than a typical test. He is just a very very odd kid. He loves math and science. He loves computers.

 

But if he can get the fantastic multiple choice English score again, he doesn't have to do very well on the writing portion to get a good combined score. 

[EKS]

I was waiting for a maturity to handle non-preferred classes because I just couldn't force him to do the work.

 

This is what stood out to me in your OP.  If he isn't mature enough to handle non-preferred classes, then he isn't mature enough to go to a four year school (at least this is how I'd view it if he were my own kid).

 

I'd sit down with him and go over what classes he has taken and what classes he needs to graduate and/or transfer.  Work with him to develop a plan, but have him take the lead.  It may be that this year he will need to concentrate on the humanities and social sciences and forego some of the math and science classes if he wants to go to a four year school next year.

 

I think the key thing is that this isn't something that *you* need to do anything about--it's his deal, and *he* needs to make it happen.

Edited July 16, 2017 by EKS

[Lori D.]

EKS said what I was thinking -- it's not just about the math/science ability, but it's also about having the skill AND maturity to handle *all* the subjects that will be required for successfully making the jump to college early.

 

And, speaking as a strongly English (Lit/Writing) person ;) , it's about making sure the foundational skill of WRITING is solid and in place before jumping to college, because that is a basic skill needed for college success whether the student is STEM-based, Fine Arts-based, or Humanities-based.

 

I feel very anxious about the idea of CLEPing for English or Social Studies courses if there is not strong writing in place already. Even if CLEP-ing works to jump the hurdle of getting need credits of Humanities/English in place next year, it does not address helping to develop  solid writing skills -- a very fundamental skill needed not just for college success, but for success in career and life as well. JMO! :)

 

A sideways angle to come at developing the writing that might be more interesting to your student is involvement in Speech & Debate. That requires logical thinking and support of your opinion or topic, plus explanation (commentary) of how your examples/facts support your contention -- all of which is exactly what writing of essays (and research papers) is all about.

 

CA High School Speech Association -- secular

National Speech and Debate Association -- secular

STOA -- Christian

National Christian Forensics and Communications Association -- Christian

 

Another group that does involve speeches/debate/public speaking, but to a lesser degree so less writing "carry over" is YMCA Youth & Gov't.

 

 

Another route is, if DS is highly motivated to move on to college, and understands that getting solid with writing is going to be one of the requirements to get to that goal, get a lgood ocal tutor to work one-on-one with DS to get him up to speed with his writing. My *guess* is that DS is just young, and while the STEM portions of his brain matured early, his writing portions are more delayed to mature. I have a LOT of 14yo, 15yo, and 16yo students in my Lit & Comp classes who struggle with writing and are JUST on the cusp of clicking with it; a year of outsourcing a lot of regular/weekly writing with someone else (in this case, me ;) ) who sets the bar high but who is encouraging and provides a lot of mentoring/input, often helps them break the log jam and start moving forward.

 

 

If, after discussing with DS, like EKS suggests, and he's really not quite "there" for taking the initiative for himself in making subjects he doesn't enjoy happen, then plan on 1.5 to 2 years before heading to college (rather than the 1 year that DS is suggesting), and work in the Humanities and English gently, as Quark suggests above -- and help DS find ways to continue to challenge himself with his STEM areas of interest:

 

- individual in-depth/long-term research project?

- find a professor at the local university in his area of interest and even now in summer build a mentoring relationship and see if that can work towards an informal internship?

- online group who are pursuing similar fields of study, to work together long-distance on a project?

 

If you decide to go that route, consider posting a separate thread to see if people can help you and DS come up with more ideas for how he can continue to "push" himself and learn in the STEM areas, while also growing in the weaker English/Humanities areas for an additional year...

 

BEST of luck in finding what works best for all of you in this situation! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

ETA -- PS

Just re-read your post and realized DS is 16yo not 14yo -- so older than I was initially thinking, and so my thoughts here may be less helpful... ;)

Edited July 17, 2017 by Lori D.

[SebastianCat]

Since he has been taking DE classes, what about asking counselors and instructors there for suggestions.  It's possible they won't have worthy suggestions for an out of the box student like your DS, but then again, they might think of programs and approaches that would be a good fit.

 

If he got a 34 on the ACT, what about doing a CLEP test for the purpose of granting him high school credit.  Even if he is not able to get college credit out of the exams, you could state that you recognized high school credit by exam based on the CLEP scores.

 

 

This is what stood out to me in your OP.  If he isn't mature enough to handle non-preferred classes, then he isn't mature enough to go to a four year school (at least this is how I'd view it if he were my own kid).

 

I'd sit down with him and go over what classes he has taken and what classes he needs to graduate and/or transfer.  Work with him to develop a plan, but have him take the lead.  It may be that this year he will need to concentrate on the humanities and social sciences and forego some of the math and science classes if he wants to go to a four year school next year.

 

I think the key thing is that this isn't something that *you* need to do anything about--it's his deal, and *he* needs to make it happen.

 

These were my thoughts as well.   If he's going to demonstrate the maturity to move away to go to school, he should take ownership of his education to get himself to that point.   I know nothing about California universities or requirements, but the state university in my city has advisors for every major who will sit down with a prospective student (even prior to applying for admission) and help the student create a written plan.  They also do advising appointments via Skype.   I would think that hearing about pre-requisites from a neutral outsider would make more of an impact than Mom's opinion.

 

Thinking about my own DS who is 15 and will be taking his first DE classes this year....before I allowed him to apply to any university for admission at an early age, he would need to take ownership of his educational plan.   I would expect him to do the research to find a suitable school, reach out to advisors and admissions personnel, and put together a plan for pre-university work as well as a tentative plan once he started at the university.