learners4life Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 DD got acceptance from UC Davis today, and was awarded the Regents Scholarship! :party: She is beyond happy, as this was her top choice. A lot of people will think we are crazy for turning down UC Berkeley, but as a future vet, this is where she wants to be. Neither UCLA or USC have announced yet, but she has already accepted UCD's offer. Regent's at UCD is $30,000 over 4 years! Thank you, ladies, for your help with the application process! This forum is a wealth of information and experience! You are amazing ladies whose children are very fortunate to have you guiding their paths. :o (I know there is a college acceptance thread, and I will post there. But, I wanted to share this with people who have helped us through the application process.) 30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilaclady Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Congratulations!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hurray hurray hurray! :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
learners4life Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hurray hurray hurray! :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: Thank you! And thanks for your UC application support! Am still looking forward to a visit soon!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirabillis Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 YAY!!!! I am thrilled!!! You give such hope to us UC-hopefuls. Both UCB & UCD are on our list... so wonderful news to homeschoolers all around!!! :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyforlatin Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 If you guys keep giving us good news, I may just have to homeschool high school. Congratulations! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I agree, if your dd interested in vet med, UCD is a great place to be! Congratulations to her! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Congratulations!!!! As the wife of a vet (and hospital owner) . . . I do want to warn you that vet school has, in the last decade, become outrageously expensive and the field is now rather over-populated due to the rapid expansion of vet class sizes along with the opening of numerous overseas and private vet schools (for financial gain of the schools, not due to a need for more vets). Vets don't make much $$ in comparison to the cost of vet school . . . So, keeping student loans to an absolute minimum, earning during summers/etc, and reserving as much $$ towards parental support (if feasible) during vet school will be necessary if at all possible. Be sure to do all you can to guide your child towards selecting the vet school that is as inexpensive as feasible (i.e., keep her instate status and don't look at overseas or private vet schools.) Also, taking some business courses during undergrad would be a very smart idea, as would be developing competence in personal finance/budgeting/managing student loan debt. My youngest expresses interest in vet med, but we're encouraging her to aim towards human med, mostly due to the financial issues. *Many* students are graduating with 200k+++ debt (some as high as 400k), and you're looking at an *average* lifetime income of around 80k/yr right now (that's including all levels of experience, not just new grads) . . . The level of debt is unsustainable for that income level. Owning your own practice *can* be (much) more lucrative, but that is highly dependent on the *business* skills of the owner . . . and requires having pristine credit in order to get financing . . . (Student debt isn't a deal breaker, but having significant cash on hand is generally needed, along with perfect credit otherwise.) These kids are coming out of vet school looking at accruing more interest each month than they can afford to possibly repay, meaning that even with the pretty generous IBR, PAYE, and REPAYE extended/income-based repayment options, they are still looking at substantial loan payments for 20-25 years and then 6 figure debt forgiveness along with full income tax due on the forgiven amount . . .meaning that even if they are very savvy, they need to save many hundreds per month in a "loan forgiveness tax savings" account . . . because they may owe a 6 figure tax debt in the year they get forgiveness (20-25 years after they go into repayment). Being very savvy about which repayment plan to select, keeping up with documentation requirements, etc, is a very important thing to be on top of, because tiny errors can cost tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of dollars in increased costs . . . Bookmark this site: http://iwanttobeaveterinarian.org and be sure that you help your daughter become very familiar with all the ins-and-outs of vet school, finance, etc. This site is supported by VIN -- an incredible veterinary-only-forum/resource for vets, which happens to be founded and led by Paul Pion, a vet cardiologist from UC Davis. The VIN Foundation (charitable wing of VIN) supports this site and some other resources for vets-to-be as well as current vets, pet owners, etc. VIN is pretty much *the* best resource for veterinarians and for the field/industry as a whole, and the VIN Foundation does some awesome work. Very accurate, very honest, etc. They have a lot of details on costs among schools, etc. If my kid were aiming towards vet school, I'd spend 2-3 hours every 6 months or so with them, studying and understanding the current options for financing and repaying school debt and focusing on ways to be frugal about their education . . . and I'd pay VERY CLOSE attention to changes in the various plans, as both PAYE and REPAYE are not locked in through statute (and so are very vulnerable to changes in the political climate), so IBR (which is much less generous than PAYE or REPAYE) is the only (for now) certain option for income-based repayment options, since PAYE and/or REPAYE may disappear at any time, and the choice of plan is incredibly important . . . Getting *in* to vet school has become much, much easier in recent years . . . but surviving as a vet w/o drowning in a lifetime of debt has become much, much harder in recent years. 15 years ago, loans for vet hospital were super easy to get because vets pretty much never went bankrupt. That's not the case anymore, because the highly indebted younger vets have a much rougher time surviving in today's tighter business climate. You have to be a great vet *and* a great business person to thrive. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readinmom Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Congrats! UC admissions are tough and unpredictable, and to get money on top of that, wow! Best wishes for your dd as she embarks on this exciting journey. Well done! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
learners4life Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 Congratulations!!!! As the wife of a vet (and hospital owner) . . . I do want to warn you that vet school has, in the last decade, become outrageously expensive and the field is now rather over-populated due to the rapid expansion of vet class sizes along with the opening of numerous overseas and private vet schools (for financial gain of the schools, not due to a need for more vets). Vets don't make much $$ in comparison to the cost of vet school . . . So, keeping student loans to an absolute minimum, earning during summers/etc, and reserving as much $$ towards parental support (if feasible) during vet school will be necessary if at all possible. Be sure to do all you can to guide your child towards selecting the vet school that is as inexpensive as feasible (i.e., keep her instate status and don't look at overseas or private vet schools.) Also, taking some business courses during undergrad would be a very smart idea, as would be developing competence in personal finance/budgeting/managing student loan debt. My youngest expresses interest in vet med, but we're encouraging her to aim towards human med, mostly due to the financial issues. *Many* students are graduating with 200k+++ debt (some as high as 400k), and you're looking at an *average* lifetime income of around 80k/yr right now (that's including all levels of experience, not just new grads) . . . The level of debt is unsustainable for that income level. Owning your own practice *can* be (much) more lucrative, but that is highly dependent on the *business* skills of the owner . . . and requires having pristine credit in order to get financing . . . (Student debt isn't a deal breaker, but having significant cash on hand is generally needed, along with perfect credit otherwise.) These kids are coming out of vet school looking at accruing more interest each month than they can afford to possibly repay, meaning that even with the pretty generous IBR, PAYE, and REPAYE extended/income-based repayment options, they are still looking at substantial loan payments for 20-25 years and then 6 figure debt forgiveness along with full income tax due on the forgiven amount . . .meaning that even if they are very savvy, they need to save many hundreds per month in a "loan forgiveness tax savings" account . . . because they may owe a 6 figure tax debt in the year they get forgiveness (20-25 years after they go into repayment). Being very savvy about which repayment plan to select, keeping up with documentation requirements, etc, is a very important thing to be on top of, because tiny errors can cost tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of dollars in increased costs . . . Bookmark this site: http://iwanttobeaveterinarian.org and be sure that you help your daughter become very familiar with all the ins-and-outs of vet school, finance, etc. This site is supported by VIN -- an incredible veterinary-only-forum/resource for vets, which happens to be founded and led by Paul Pion, a vet cardiologist from UC Davis. The VIN Foundation (charitable wing of VIN) supports this site and some other resources for vets-to-be as well as current vets, pet owners, etc. VIN is pretty much *the* best resource for veterinarians and for the field/industry as a whole, and the VIN Foundation does some awesome work. Very accurate, very honest, etc. They have a lot of details on costs among schools, etc. If my kid were aiming towards vet school, I'd spend 2-3 hours every 6 months or so with them, studying and understanding the current options for financing and repaying school debt and focusing on ways to be frugal about their education . . . and I'd pay VERY CLOSE attention to changes in the various plans, as both PAYE and REPAYE are not locked in through statute (and so are very vulnerable to changes in the political climate), so IBR (which is much less generous than PAYE or REPAYE) is the only (for now) certain option for income-based repayment options, since PAYE and/or REPAYE may disappear at any time, and the choice of plan is incredibly important . . . Getting *in* to vet school has become much, much easier in recent years . . . but surviving as a vet w/o drowning in a lifetime of debt has become much, much harder in recent years. 15 years ago, loans for vet hospital were super easy to get because vets pretty much never went bankrupt. That's not the case anymore, because the highly indebted younger vets have a much rougher time surviving in today's tighter business climate. You have to be a great vet *and* a great business person to thrive. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You bring up so many important points about cost of education versus expected income. It is disappointing that vets make such little money. I wonder what effect pet health care insurance will have on that... We live very close to UC Davis - dd will be able to live at home, which she prefers anyhow. That $30,000 Regent's Scholarship from UCD is VERY welcome, as it will basically pay for a year of vet school. I understand that UCD offers some scholarship money to vet school students, and am hopeful that she will get some additional money there. Between all of that, what we have already saved, and what we have budgeted to contribute her last couple of years, we are planning on her graduating debt-free, or very close to it. If she couldn't do that, we would have to take an even more cold, hard look at things. DD would like to do genetic research, and so is hoping to stay on at a university after graduation and split her time between research and clinic. She does have a passion for research. From the career fulfillment side, that would be wonderful. From the financial side, I'm thinking that being at the university would increase her salary. What do you think? She has already attended a few vet conferences at UCD, mainly aimed at vets who needed continuing education hours, and has been further excited by the research side. Thank you so much for the link to the VIN supported site! Already bookmarked it. I see from your sons' schools that you are probably located in Alabama. We just recently met a UCD vet student who was a graduate of University of Alabama. :) Thanks, again, for your insight. I appreciate your candor. Question: Does your husband still love his job? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) To be at a vet school as an academic, she would need to do an internship (1 year) and a residency (about 3 years, depending on specialty) after finishing her DVM, both at *very* low wages (like 30k/yr) with extremely long hours, in order to become a board certified specialist. That's the path that any vet students who desire to work at a Uni follow. I'd imagine that to do genetics research, she'd likely actually need a PhD either in addition to or in lieu of a DVM. Universities do not hire DVMs, as a rule, unless they have a board-certified specialty (ortho, dermatology, soft tissue surgery, cardiology, etc, etc) and/or a PhD (not typical for clinical professors -- those who are actually practicing vet med on patients on a regular basis, but more likely for those researching genetics/pharmacology/etc) -- either of which will require *at least* 3+ years post-DVM of additional education. I doubt there are many (if any) PhDs on faculty that do not also hold DVMS, but that might be the case for things like genetics/etc that wouldn't be clinical in nature. If it's like med schools, then any non-DVM faculty are likely not tenured. (For instance, a friend of mine is a pharmacology professor (PhD) at our local med school. Neither she, nor ANY of the 3-4 other pharmacologists have tenured faculty jobs. They are contract employees, and have little standing/prestige in the med school, and have much lower salaries than the MDs. TO be tenure track faculty at the med school, they'd need to be a MD +/- a PhD, but the MD is required, period.) There might be some DVM/PhD combined programs -- those would certainly take longer than the 4 year DVM, but might get the total down to 6-7 years. I'm not aware of any such programs, but they might exist, and if not, they might crop up in coming years before your daughter is done with undergrad. I'd google that. :) Now, that said, getting funding for a PhD program in the sciences is *not* as difficult. So, if your daughter graduates debt free from undergrad, it might be very smart to go directly to a MS/PhD program (straight to PhD is possible for the most exceptional students), with a nice graduate research assistantship that could provide enough money to live on -- well to live on like a pauper -- and a tuition waiver . . . That might be very smart if she's sure she wants to go into research in genetics. Then, the next step would be to go from the PhD to a DVM program. (The PhD is NOT at all needed for clinical specialties -- i.e., she just wants to become a kick-ass orthopedic surgeon and/or work in clinical research at a university in that setting . . . But, genetics is an entirely separate specialization, and would, I'm guessing, generally be led by PhD research scientists, as opposed to CLINICAL specialists that are produced via the DVM/internship/residency process.) Getting into the DVM program with that background should be a piece of cake, assuming she checks the needed boxes and has good grades. If your daughter can live at home through undergrad and DVM, that would be a HUGE cost efficiency, and I'd HIGHLY recommend it! Typically, she'd need to live w/in 15-25 min (depending on the school's policies) for the final year of vet school, due to the "clinical rotations" that include on-call coverage and require the students to be within a certain time frame for being on call. If you don't live quite close enough, she could just get close-in housing for that one year -- by then, she'd have plenty of friends in the program and could probably get a cheap room in a friend's house and just use it when she's on call. IF she can get free housing all through her studies, then she's gonna have a MUCH better chance of getting through it with a manageable debt load. (Most smart folks advise no more debt than the expected first year salary . . . or certainly NOT more than 2x that salary at the VERY most, but at 2x, you're looking at a long, hard repayment schedule. Remember that nearly 100% of repayment will be coming from after tax money . . . ) Also, be very careful to maintain state residency in the state she wants to go to DVM (or at least SOME state!! LOL). Residency for DVM programs is generally MUCH more restrictive than for undergrad. For instance, my dh had legal residency for NO STATES AT ALL when he was applying to vet school. . . He had been state-hopping for MS & PhD programs . . . so had lost his original state residency where he'd graduated high school . . . and in general, no states (not either he'd lived in for grad school) allows in-school years to count towards residency. In state restrictions get harder and harder each year, and this is NOT gonna' change. SO, we just paid the surcharge for out of state . . . but, back then, that surcharge was MUCH lower than it is today! Today, IMHO, it would be insanity to pay OOS tuition to vet school unless you were simply **very** wealthy. If that's the case, then go for it! Unfortunately, more and more students go OOS today, because state schools have opened up MANY more OOS slots (instead of instates slots) because they are cash-strapped due to decade++ of state-budget-cuts . . . so a lot of kids today are paying 45-60k/yr in tuition . . . It's INSANE, IMHO. I've literally seen student loan reports for grads with 500k in loans . . . at 7-8% interest . . . now earning 80k/yr. They're accruing more interest each year than can be paid with the entirety of their after-tax paychecks, let alone money for food or health insurance or pet care expenses. 10-15 years from now, when these loans hit forgiveness, I guarantee we'll be reading reams of reports of students getting 500k+, even 700k or more, forgiven, resulting in 200-300k++ due-today tax bills, which will create an entirely new industry as banks offer financing for that tax debt . . . These poor kids will be in debt until they die. Very, very sad. Totally irrational and just not right! It is COMMON to hear young vets complain that they can't afford to own a pet!! Or have a kid!! Let alone a house or save for retirement . . . It is best to look at vet school/etc as a life of hard choices, precise budgeting, Ramen noodles, and roommates . . . Get through with as little debt as humanly possible, and then get on with the great life you aim to have . . . The specialists (board certified specialists -- a very specific legal definition, requiring a residency -- which itself comes after the internship) can make more than the average private practice general medicine vet, depending again on their specialty. Specialists (cardiologists, oncologists, surgeons, etc) at universities generally make more than ordinary private practice general practice vets, but not *hugely* more, maybe 30-50% more than GPs. The specialists who work in private practice "referral hospitals" likely make the most, but, again, that depends on the specialty and in particular, if the specialist is an owner or co-owner of the referral practice. I'd imagine many of those specialists command salaries more like 150-200k/yr (which is about the top 10% of private practice general vets -- and nearly all of those earning over 120k/yr are owners, not employees. Typical associate (employed) vet salaries are around 70k-80k in most areas, with perhaps closer to 90-100k in very high cost of living areas. There is not a large "up-side" on associate salaries with experience (this is in stark contrast to human med where one can expect to double their salary with a handful of years' experience. . .) Note that "matching" for an internship and/or residency is very competitive, and it is highly unlikely the student would be so lucky as to "match" for the one university (presumably UCD) that was her first choice. That would require both *great* luck and *tip top* talent/performance. So, one would assume that she'd move for her internship (1 yr) and move again for the residency (2-3 years typically). The wages earned during those positions are so low that one would *not* be able to make any headway on loan repayment, so borrowers typically take a forbearance or deferral of some sort, but interest accrues 100% of the time, as grad school loans all accrue interest from Day 1, no matter your circumstance. However, if one is savvy, you can just enter an income-based-repayment plan before beginning the internship/residency, so that those years can count towards your 20 or 25 years of loan payments. This will mean the balances get larger and larger, of course, but at least the clock is ticking towards repayment. These are the sorts of things that the vet student needs to *seriously* research before graduation, so they enter the best program for them. An incorrect choice can cost 10s to 100s of thousands of dollars, and often are IRREVERSIBLE. I'd encourage your dd to find opportunities at UCD to explore research as an undergrad, and especially to seek out any opportunities the vet school offers to meet faculty and students, etc. If they have any outreach options, especially that involve Paul Pion, I'd make it a very high priority to take advantage of that. Sitting down with one or more vet faculty at UCD during her years as an undergrad, to discuss her ambitions and get advice/mentoring would be HUGELY beneficial. Question answer: Yes, my husband loves his job. I don't think there's any other job he'd want to do. He'd be happy to be retired, though, lol, and sit on a beach -- or stand in a trout stream -- for the rest of his days. He's an owner, though, and has been since 4 years out of school, and that's the only way he'd have been happy (and the only way we'd have been able to do more than tread water financially). Owning has also allowed him to make a great income and build wealth/assets, but again, that'd dependent upon business/finance/management savvy and a lot of very hard work, taking large personal financial risks, etc. I don't think he'd have been happy earning 80k/yr with his ability to practice the way he wants to dependent on the whims of another owner or corporation. And, FWIW, corporate ownership is a rapidly increasing issue . . . even many of the seemingly-small-mom-and-pop vets out there are now owned by national corporations, which both limits the medical choices of the veterinarians and takes away a lot of the freedoms to practice that make practice satisfying. Vet med is sad and hard many days. Having the freedom (as the owner) to give away services or discount them when desired to just do a nice thing . . . or change protocols as new research comes out . . . being able to hire/fire/give benefits/etc at his whim . . . these things are *key* to his personal satisfaction in his profession. The *medicine* itself is always gratifying and meaningful, but vet med is 100% dependent on the client's ability to pay. . . . If your boss (corporation or individual owner) controls all those things, it can be disheartening and very hard. Vet med has one of the highest suicide rates among professions . . . mental health is no joke . . . My husband makes a great living for us, and we're on track to retire comfortably . . . But, he can (and does) choose to give away 10s of thousands of dollars a year to pets he just wants to help . . . When he has a nice client who takes good care of their pets but just can't swing the $1000 dentistry their old, beloved doggy desperately needs . . . he can just say, "Let me let the Needy Pet Fund take care of this for you. Let's do it Wednesday." (Our Needy Pet Fund is essentially an imaginary fund that means we, the owners, are paying for it . . . but we don't want people to *know* it's just us paying, or the whole world would be at our doorstep by tomorrow, looking for free care, and then we really would be depressed and/or bankrupt. Because he's the owner, he can do that. BUT, he can't do that every day, and definitely can't meet the endless need that exists. The same goes for staff compensation and benefits . . . We do as much as we can to be good citizens and good employers (and we do a lot), but there is always a limit . . . Being the responsible one for saying "no" to owners and staff alike . . . is the hardest part of the job. Dealign with *people* is a huge part of vet med. (Taking some undergrad psych and/or human/personnel management courses would be great!!) There are a lot of great things about being a vet. I think I'd have liked it, if I were doing it the way dh does it (being able to call his own shots . . . never *has* to decline a case due to finances, and never had to practice medicine for profit instead of for the good of the patient and client . . . You *can* do good while also doing well. He proves it every day. Oh, also, we are actually in WV!! Our kids (oldest daughter, and soon to be son, whose graduating in May) both go (or will go) to U Alabama . . . because of U A's awesome National Merit scholarships . . . 5 years free tuition ++++. We've lived with student loan debt long enough . . . that we've made it non-negotiable to go to undergrad debt free -- we have a certain $$ amount we've committed to each kid for higher education support . . . With the very generous NM scholarships at UA, we will not only be able to support them (in style) through undergrad. . . we'll also have enough parental support left over to be able to help them out during grad and/or professional school. #2 is considering med school, and so, for him, cheap undergrad is even more important, and we hope to be able to help him at least minimize if not completely avoid med school debt . . . Edited March 13, 2017 by StephanieZ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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