Quite Disappointed: WWYD?

[lea1]

My dh and I recently decided, for many reasons, it might be good for our two sons (both currently 11 year old 5th graders) to go to a nearby private school.  We submitted applications for the boys to start in August and they would be starting in 6th grade.  Both boys have always been homeschooled (except for one week of public school in 2nd grade:) and had never taken a standardized test before.  Also, we have been using Math U See for the past year and half or so (CLE before that).

 

Knowing they would be taking portions of the Sanford Achievement Test, I found a Sanford prep booklet to do with them so they would know somewhat what to expect and how to fill in the little bubbles and all that.  I also started reviewing some math concepts that we had been over with CLE but they had likely forgotten or were very rusty on so they might be more prepared for that.  So we spent the week before the test just preparing for the test and taking short practice tests.

 

The sections of the test the school gives are the Reading Comprehension, Math Problem Solving and Math Procedures.  Son1 scored above average in all three sections, no problem there.  Son2 scored in the 2nd percentile (2nd grade level) in Reading Comprehension, the 3rd percentile (2nd grade, 5th month) in Math Problem Solving and 43rd percentile (5th grade, 5th month) in Math Procedures.  I am completely blown away by this and, I must say, quite disappointed.  I am happy to keep homeschooling, so that is not a problem.  But I am very concerned that son2 may have some sort of processing issue, although I also wonder if he didn't just get off on filling in the bubbles.

 

He loves to read and he reads a lot and always has.  In second grade, he was fighting me a lot, so we put them in the nearby public school where they tested him as reading at a 7th grade level at that time.  But, he has always had a very difficult time being able to tell me about something he has read or being able to tell me the basic plot of a story.

 

We are currently using CLE Language Arts for grammar and we are also using CLE Reading and have switched back to CLE Math.  I switched over to Math U See because they needed some extra work with long division and I had not switched back because they kind of liked it. I have switched back to CLE now though and I think they will do fine with it.

 

I was thinking maybe he needs more practice with these kinds of tests (and being timed) so I will have them take the Iowa test with our co-op at the end of the year and I may give them another test that I can administer at home sometime during the summer or in August.  We are planning to keep homeschooling another year and possibly try the private school again in for 7th grade.

 

Anyone know what would cause a child who loves to read and reads a lot not to be able to formulate his thoughts well enough to be able to tell the plot of a short story he had just read?  Also, we use IEW for writing and he has always had a lot of difficulty using the key word outline to tell back the short story in his own words.  He just really struggles to find the right words to add in to make it make sound good, if you know what I mean.  He will put in the most basic words to fit the words from the KWO together in the simplest way.  When he actually sits down to write/type, he can do a better job then when he is doing it on the fly.

 

Any words of wisdom, advice, encouragement, etc. is totally welcome but please go easy on me because I am feeling pretty low about this.  Thanks.

[Arcadia]

But I am very concerned that son2 may have some sort of processing issue, although I also wonder if he didn't just get off on filling in the bubbles.

 

I was thinking maybe he needs more practice with these kinds of tests (and being timed) so I will have them take the Iowa test with our co-op at the end of the year and I may give them another test that I can administer at home sometime during the summer or in August.

Coloring the bubbles wrongly would cause scores to be off. How did your son do on the practice tests at home? Stanford achievement tests are untimed though and we used that because my DS11 reads slowly.

 

Reading detective workbooks has been useful for my kids for test prep. They tend to choose the second best answers before doing test prep.

 

I might add a math word problem supplement for your son to see whether that is a problem area for him.

 

While I didn't find my kids Stanford achievement test results very useful, the online version took us two mornings and results are within an hour of the last section completed. We did the complete battery and my kids results did show me which sections my kids were weaker at.

[lea1]

Coloring the bubbles wrongly would cause scores to be off. How did your son do on the practice tests at home? Stanford achievement tests are untimed though and we used that because my DS11 reads slowly.

 

Reading detective workbooks has been useful for my kids for test prep. They tend to choose the second best answers before doing test prep.

 

I might add a math word problem supplement for your son to see whether that is a problem area for him.

 

While I didn't find my kids Stanford achievement test results very useful, the online version took us two mornings and results are within an hour of the last section completed. We did the complete battery and my kids results did show me which sections my kids were weaker at.

 

I had read that the Stanford was not timed but the practice test booklet did have me time them on their practice tests.  The first one they did they both bombed badly.  After that they improved quite a bit but son2's scores were lower than son1....but not to the level that they were at the private school.

 

I will have to check in to the reading detective.  Thanks for suggesting that.  I have some of the Singapore math word problem workbooks so I could use those for math.  Thanks for these suggestions.  Great ideas and very helpful.

 

With the online version, they take the test online and there is nothing in writing?

 

[MistyMountain]

One of my kids had trouble telling back plot and with comprehension type stuff. I heard good things about SRA's corrective reading comprehension so I will be giving that a try this summer. We have done Reading Detective and I think it does ok with test prep but I feel like we need a little more then just that.

Edited February 23, 2017 by MistyMountain

[Arcadia]

With the online version, they take the test online and there is nothing in writing?

 

There is nothing in writing and the screen shows a question at a time so my easily distracted kid was not as distracted. Also no chance to bubble wrongly. He just take a 5-10 mins toilet break after each section.

[Peaceseeker]

If there is a reading comprehension problem that may be why he struggled with the word problems, as opposed to a math issue. If he doesn't understand what it is asking that may be the struggle. Just something to consider. A lot of kids with reading comprehension problems struggle with word problems.

[Peaceseeker]

And here is some encouragement for you. Millions of kids in the public and private school system also experience low test scores. Just because you are a homeschooler doesn't mean you have somehow done something wrong, failed, or messed him up. Some kids struggle with tests. Some kids need extra help or to be taught in specific ways. Some kids just have a bad test taking day and everything is just fine.

 

You have some new information, and I bet you will take it and figure out which category your son falls in. And you can work on whatever he is struggling with, whether that is reading comprehension, test taking skills, math or whatever.

 

How lucky is he to have someone in his corner, able to teach him one on one, to figure out what he needs to be successful in school. That is priceless and it is unlikely the private school could provide it for him.

[lea1]

There is nothing in writing and the screen shows a question at a time so my easily distracted kid was not as distracted. Also no chance to bubble wrongly. He just take a 5-10 mins toilet break after each section.

 

This sounds like it would be a better method of test taking for son2.  I may have them retake the test using this method and see how he does.  Thanks so much for the info.

[lea1]

And here is some encouragement for you. Millions of kids in the public and private school system also experience low test scores. Just because you are a homeschooler doesn't mean you have somehow done something wrong, failed, or messed him up. Some kids struggle with tests. Some kids need extra help or to be taught in specific ways. Some kids just have a bad test taking day and everything is just fine.

 

You have some new information, and I bet you will take it and figure out which category your son falls in. And you can work on whatever he is struggling with, whether that is reading comprehension, test taking skills, math or whatever.

 

How lucky is he to have someone in his corner, able to teach him one on one, to figure out what he needs to be successful in school. That is priceless and it is unlikely the private school could provide it for him.

 

Thank you for this encouraging bit of wisdom.  I greatly appreciate it and needed to hear this:).

 

[Mandamom]

My dh and I recently decided, for many reasons, it might be good for our two sons (both currently 11 year old 5th graders) to go to a nearby private school.  We submitted applications for the boys to start in August and they would be starting in 6th grade.  Both boys have always been homeschooled (except for one week of public school in 2nd grade:) and had never taken a standardized test before.  Also, we have been using Math U See for the past year and half or so (CLE before that).

 

Knowing they would be taking portions of the Sanford Achievement Test, I found a Sanford prep booklet to do with them so they would know somewhat what to expect and how to fill in the little bubbles and all that.  I also started reviewing some math concepts that we had been over with CLE but they had likely forgotten or were very rusty on so they might be more prepared for that.  So we spent the week before the test just preparing for the test and taking short practice tests.

 

The sections of the test the school gives are the Reading Comprehension, Math Problem Solving and Math Procedures.  Son1 scored above average in all three sections, no problem there.  Son2 scored in the 2nd percentile (2nd grade level) in Reading Comprehension, the 3rd percentile (2nd grade, 5th month) in Math Problem Solving and 43rd percentile (5th grade, 5th month) in Math Procedures.  I am completely blown away by this and, I must say, quite disappointed.  I am happy to keep homeschooling, so that is not a problem.  But I am very concerned that son2 may have some sort of processing issue, although I also wonder if he didn't just get off on filling in the bubbles.

 

He loves to read and he reads a lot and always has.  In second grade, he was fighting me a lot, so we put them in the nearby public school where they tested him as reading at a 7th grade level at that time.  But, he has always had a very difficult time being able to tell me about something he has read or being able to tell me the basic plot of a story.

 

We are currently using CLE Language Arts for grammar and we are also using CLE Reading and have switched back to CLE Math.  I switched over to Math U See because they needed some extra work with long division and I had not switched back because they kind of liked it. I have switched back to CLE now though and I think they will do fine with it.

 

I was thinking maybe he needs more practice with these kinds of tests (and being timed) so I will have them take the Iowa test with our co-op at the end of the year and I may give them another test that I can administer at home sometime during the summer or in August.  We are planning to keep homeschooling another year and possibly try the private school again in for 7th grade.

 

Anyone know what would cause a child who loves to read and reads a lot not to be able to formulate his thoughts well enough to be able to tell the plot of a short story he had just read?  Also, we use IEW for writing and he has always had a lot of difficulty using the key word outline to tell back the short story in his own words.  He just really struggles to find the right words to add in to make it make sound good, if you know what I mean.  He will put in the most basic words to fit the words from the KWO together in the simplest way.  When he actually sits down to write/type, he can do a better job then when he is doing it on the fly.

 

Any words of wisdom, advice, encouragement, etc. is totally welcome but please go easy on me because I am feeling pretty low about this.  Thanks.

 

Children/adults with language processing weaknesses (I have difficulties myself) are usually not diagnosed until later because they can read the words on the page very well. I really don't like using (I am a reading tutor) reading tests with students unless there is both a word recognition score and a comprehension score. Without both pieces of information you don't get the full picture as to what is going on.

 

Memory, attention and language are the three pieces that are usually the cause of comprehension difficulties. Word retrieval, difficulty comprehending and selecting simplistic words causes me to think that he is having language problems. 

 

Some things that you can and should work on. 

 

* Make sure that he has really fluent in phonics skills and that,missing  phonics skills isn't the cause of the reading/comprehension problems. Does he read fluently, and accurately? Can he decode new words fairly easily? If he has difficulties here, you need to strengthen these skills. 

 

* If you can, determine about what books that he does like, that he is comprehending. work with that level book for a while and have him do lots of narrations with your support. If you can get someone to test his levels that would be wonderful. 

 

* Can he comprehend when he reads aloud as opposed to reading silently? If he has more problems reading silently, work  on having him read short passages silently and then talk about them? 

 

* Build up his speaking vocabulary. Also, his reading vocabulary. 

 

Start with where he is even if it is a couple levels below where he is working now.

 

I really like IEW. Keep using it but stay on those KWO until he gets them. Make sure that he comprehends the story (talk about it) before he has to create the outline. Choose easier reading passages if you have to. 

 

Also, play games with building sentences. 

 

The boy ran.   

Quickly, the boy ran. 

The boy ran quickly across the field. 

 

 

Make it fun. 

 

Sorry, I have a lot of thoughts but I have to run out and pick up a kid. 

[lea1]

Children/adults with language processing weaknesses (I have difficulties myself) are usually not diagnosed until later because they can read the words on the page very well. I really don't like using (I am a reading tutor) reading tests with students unless there is both a word recognition score and a comprehension score. Without both pieces of information you don't get the full picture as to what is going on.

 

Memory, attention and language are the three pieces that are usually the cause of comprehension difficulties. Word retrieval, difficulty comprehending and selecting simplistic words causes me to think that he is having language problems. 

 

Some things that you can and should work on. 

 

* Make sure that he has really fluent in phonics skills and that,missing  phonics skills isn't the cause of the reading/comprehension problems. Does he read fluently, and accurately? Can he decode new words fairly easily? If he has difficulties here, you need to strengthen these skills. 

 

* If you can, determine about what books that he does like, that he is comprehending. work with that level book for a while and have him do lots of narrations with your support. If you can get someone to test his levels that would be wonderful. 

 

* Can he comprehend when he reads aloud as opposed to reading silently? If he has more problems reading silently, work  on having him read short passages silently and then talk about them? 

 

* Build up his speaking vocabulary. Also, his reading vocabulary. 

 

Start with where he is even if it is a couple levels below where he is working now.

 

I really like IEW. Keep using it but stay on those KWO until he gets them. Make sure that he comprehends the story (talk about it) before he has to create the outline. Choose easier reading passages if you have to. 

 

Also, play games with building sentences. 

 

The boy ran.   

Quickly, the boy ran. 

The boy ran quickly across the field. 

 

 

Make it fun. 

 

Sorry, I have a lot of thoughts but I have to run out and pick up a kid. 

 

This is all very helpful.  Thanks so much for taking the time to write it out.

 

He can read aloud quite well and has always been a strong reader.  His phonics usage and vocabulary are both pretty solid, as far as being able to read new words, sound out words, etc.  I have always read aloud to them a ton.  I normally read a bit above their level and I think that is why they both scored at the 7th grade level when they were tested in 2nd grade.

 

I was just wondering about the reading aloud thing vs reading silently to himself, if his comprehension would be different.  I am going to try that and see how well he comprehends if he reads aloud.  I definitely need to start working with him on smaller passages.  He has always had trouble with narrations. We were using Writing With Ease in 1st through 3rd and he could never get the narration part down so I switched to something else.  I was hoping it was just something he would grow out of but I think we may be dealing with something more than that.  Well, at least I have a few things to start looking at and working through with him.  Thanks!

 

[Storygirl]

Are you going to keep homeschooling next year, then, instead of enrolling in school?

 

You may already know this, but you can request for your local public school to evaluate him for learning disabilities, free of charge, even if you are a homeschooler or enrolled in private school. You will get less information that you would if you pursued private evaluations, but it would give you a better idea about the best way to teach him. And if you decided in the future to enroll in school, it would help to be able to get any needed IEP in place without a delay.

 

There isn't a way to tell what might be at the root of the problem from your description, but there is such a thing as Specific Learning Disability in reading comprehension (one of my children has this SLD). There are also other issues that could be at play, including language issues, processing issues, working memory, auditory issues, attention, etc., that could help explain both the comprehension and writing difficulties.

 

I don't mention these things to scare you, but to give you information that might help. If you can determine the root cause, you can research ways to address it. Another thing to consider is whether he has had vision and hearing exams. Not just the screening they do at the doctor's office, but thorough exams. It's not uncommon for hearing and vision issues to be undetected.

 

And :grouphug: . Doing poorly on testing when considering enrolling in school was the tipping point for our family and let to the realization that some issues for our kids were deeper than typical. It was a really heart wrenching time for me, so I know how it can feel.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

And yes, reading aloud can make a difference with comprehension. If you find that to be true, you should still work specifically on comprehension strategies, but you can support their other reading with audio books, reading aloud, and other technology.

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Storygirl

[sbgrace]

I think you got some good thoughts on the reading. On the math word problems, Singapore FAN math are better books imo than CWP. They have better instruction, scaffolding, and solutions. There are also fewer problems, so the books work better as a supplement to CLE in my experience. With my struggler, who has had similar issues as yours it seems, I would help with problems as needed on a white board, then have him try again on his own another day. The harder books we often worked through twice for him. CLE really benefits from additional word problem work.

[HSmomof2]

Can you actually see the test/results from the school? Before spending much time trying to plan how to remediate, or looking for learning issues, I would want to make sure it wasn't actually a problem with how he took/filled in the test.

[ElizabethB]

I would check reading for sure with all my tests.  He should be able to read silently 173 WPM for 5th grade, 185 WPM for 6th grade and read oral nonsense words from my last page 90 - 100 WPM.  The MWIA scores should not be a slowdown of more than 10% and both lists should be read with 100% accuracy at 90 - 100 WPM.  Also, a reading grade level test, and if below 12th grade level, work up to there--it makes comprehension easier.  All the tests and remediation if he is behind on anything are here, tests at bottom of page.  Nonsense word document for nonsense word reading speed is teacher folder link #6 near bottom of page.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

Here is an ESL comprehension resource from a friend/mentor of Don Potter, he also used it for non ESL students who needed explicit help in that area, it is in both English and Spanish, keep scrolling through if it switches to Spanish:

 

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/gonzalez_materials.pdf

 

I found these helpful for my daughter who struggled with inference, we skipped to level 2 and some of the early exercises even in the level 2 book, but they all looked good, she just didn't need the first few books or the first bit of book 2:

 

https://classicalacademicpress.com/subject/reasoning-reading/

 

Also, try to figure out what the challenge is--underlying specific vocabulary of the subject, problem with inference, problem with long sentences where you have to figure out the use of "but" or "and" or things like that, then isolate and work on problem area.

Edited February 23, 2017 by ElizabethB

[lea1]

I would check reading for sure with all my tests.  He should be able to read silently 173 WPM for 5th grade, 185 WPM for 6th grade and read oral nonsense words from my last page 90 - 100 WPM.  The MWIA scores should not be a slowdown of more than 10% and both lists should be read with 100% accuracy at 90 - 100 WPM.  Also, a reading grade level test, and if below 12th grade level, work up to there--it makes comprehension easier.  All the tests and remediation if he is behind on anything are here, tests at bottom of page.  Nonsense word document for nonsense word reading speed is teacher folder link #6 near bottom of page.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

Here is an ESL comprehension resource from a friend/mentor of Don Potter, he also used it for non ESL students who needed explicit help in that area, it is in both English and Spanish, keep scrolling through if it switches to Spanish:

 

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/gonzalez_materials.pdf

 

I found these helpful for my daughter who struggled with inference, we skipped to level 2 and some of the early exercises even in the level 2 book, but they all looked good, she just didn't need the first few books or the first bit of book 2:

 

https://classicalacademicpress.com/subject/reasoning-reading/

 

Also, try to figure out what the challenge is--underlying specific vocabulary of the subject, problem with inference, problem with long sentences where you have to figure out the use of "but" or "and" or things like that, then isolate and work on problem area.

 

Wow, this is awesome!  Thanks so much for all of this Elizabeth.  I will definitely go through what you have suggested and do the testing. 

 

 

[ElizabethB]

Wow, this is awesome!  Thanks so much for all of this Elizabeth.  I will definitely go through what you have suggested and do the testing. 

 

 

You're welcome!

 

Where the reading speed plays in--some of my students with slow reading speeds struggle to remember what they read, the dad of one of my students had to take notes as he read. (Son was also slow but had a great memory and didn't have to take notes.) It is also a good idea for anyone to read the questions first in this type of test, but even more so for a slow reader or someone with comprehension difficulties.  

 

If the reading checks out OK and the comprehension resources suggested by me and others don't help much, you might need a speech therapist that specializes in language processing, and/or may need to adapt some ESL type resources.  (Also, post to the learning challenges board at that point for ideas and the exact expertise that is needed and good books to use on your own.)

[lea1]

You're welcome!

 

Where the reading speed plays in--some of my students with slow reading speeds struggle to remember what they read, the dad of one of my students had to take notes as he read. (Son was also slow but had a great memory and didn't have to take notes.) It is also a good idea for anyone to read the questions first in this type of test, but even more so for a slow reader or someone with comprehension difficulties.  

 

If the reading checks out OK and the comprehension resources suggested by me and others don't help much, you might need a speech therapist that specializes in language processing, and/or may need to adapt some ESL type resources.  (Also, post to the learning challenges board at that point for ideas and the exact expertise that is needed and good books to use on your own.)

 

OK, thank so much!