Can someone explain Singapore to me?

[LNC]

I'm really just curious. We use CLE and enjoy it, but many homeschoolers in my area use Singapore. Quite often I hear that so and so's 4th or 5th grade student is "ready" for pre algebra. Yet, when I "babysit" these students and go through their lessons with them - they can't do a simple problem like 5+8 in their heads. I'm curious about a program that teaches so well conceptually, but doesn't drill the basics? Or am I misinterpreting? My daughter is doing well w/ CLE 4, but I'm sure she isn't "advanced" conceptually.

[nmoira]

I'm really just curious. We use CLE and enjoy it, but many homeschoolers in my area use Singapore. Quite often I hear that so and so's 4th or 5th grade student is "ready" for pre algebra. Yet, when I "babysit" these students and go through their lessons with them - they can't do a simple problem like 5+8 in their heads.

One of the things I love about Singapore is its emphasis on mental math. What age are these children? There's not much drill in the Primary Math materials, though there are games, mental math exercises, and other activities in the Home Instructor's Guide and Teacher's Guide; it is expected that mastery of facts will be accomplished, outside the program if necessary (this is the way it would be done in Singapore). However, the methods to use until automaticity is attained are all covered within the program. As to your example, it is expected that addition facts within 20 be mastered during the first year of Primary Math.

[langfam]

There isn't much drill in the Singapore Math workbooks. That's why I use Horizons concurrently with Singapore to cover the drill aspect that's lacking in Singapore. Singapore's strength is teaching concepts and showing children to approach problems from different angles, so there's no opportunity to memorize processeses thereby ensuring real understanding.

 

I'm originally from Singapore and was taught Singapore math. Parents often hired tutors for their children and they were given many additional workbooks to practice. We practiced a lot outside the text/workbook.

 

I believe the reasons why Singapore kids do well on international tests is: they have a good curriculum, but also because they have private tutors and they practice,practice, practice to pass rigorous exams.

 

HtHs

Edited October 20, 2008 by langfam

[KAR120C]

I'm really just curious. We use CLE and enjoy it, but many homeschoolers in my area use Singapore. Quite often I hear that so and so's 4th or 5th grade student is "ready" for pre algebra. Yet, when I "babysit" these students and go through their lessons with them - they can't do a simple problem like 5+8 in their heads. I'm curious about a program that teaches so well conceptually, but doesn't drill the basics? Or am I misinterpreting? My daughter is doing well w/ CLE 4, but I'm sure she isn't "advanced" conceptually.

The main text and workbooks don't emphasize drill, but it's assumed that the teacher is doing drill work as well as what's in the text. It's likely that a) a fair number of people use the program and skip the drill, and b) a fair number of people purposely skip the drill because they don't believe it's necessary (or necessary at that point). We delayed drill ourselves, and found that it came easily, but at a later point than many curricula require. One of the reasons Singapore is popular with some of us is that it doesn't emphasize drill to the exclusion of concepts, and it's easy to keep working on concepts while the drill is coming along at its own pace. Also, it's extremely easy to add in drill to a curriculum that already has good conceptual teaching, but more difficult to add concepts when a program is too focused on drill.

 

You also have to consider those who do the drill but whose kids don't necessarily "perform" in front of others. My DS is one of those. He has memorized math facts till the cows come home, but under stress he counts up. (And a babysitter going over lessons with him would be stressful.)

[nmoira]

 

You also have to consider those who do the drill but whose kids don't necessarily "perform" in front of others. My DS is one of those. He has memorized math facts till the cows come home, but under stress he counts up. (And a babysitter going over lessons with him would be stressful.)

That's a good point. DD the Eldest can do 2 by 2 digit multiplication mentally, but will not answer even the most basic "age appropriate" questions her grandmother asks her.

[LNC]

How does Singapore teach double digits multiplication. 36X48 etc. I taught this to my 4th grade daughter today with CLE. It seems like there would be lots of room for careless errors if your multiplication and addition facts weren't solid. How does Singapore teach to do that mentally? This is really interesting to me! Thanks for answering.

 

In this case, the mom told me I would have to answer his facts while he worked bc he hadn't learned them yet. He was 11. At homeschool meetings, Singapore moms share that their children are very advanced in math but they still don't know their math facts. Again, I'm not criticizing - I'm really just curious!

Edited October 20, 2008 by LNC

[Narrow Gate Academy]

How does Singapore teach double digits multiplication. 36X48 etc. I taught this to my 4th grade daughter today with CLE. It seems like there would be lots of room for careless errors if your multiplication and addition facts weren't solid. How does Singapore teach to do that mentally? This is really interesting to me! Thanks for answering.

 

Double digit multiplication would be 36 x 8 + 36 x 40. We don't do that mentally here because it is a new skill for this year, but my 4th grader can do quite a bit mentally.

 

In this case, the mom told me I would have to answer his facts while he worked bc he hadn't learned them yet. He was 11. At homeschool meetings, Singapore moms share that their children are very advanced in math but they still don't know their math facts. Again, I'm not criticizing - I'm really just curious!

 

We do math drill alongside of Singapore. I expect addition facts to be mastered by the end of 2nd grade and multiplication by the end of 4th. Honestly, I couldn't imagine doing the program without it. I consider it to be essential. Both my 2nd and 4th grader can add and subtract quite well in their heads. My 4th grader can multiply and divide by single digits mentally. We're quite happy with Singapore, but we do drill separately.

[cillakat]

" they can't do a simple problem like 5+8 in their heads."

 

in Singapore, it's a given that drill is done separately, every single day, for 'x' period of time.

 

that bit of the success of Singapore math is lost in translation (so to speak) when US consumers use it. Too many assume that drill/repetition/mastery of facts isn't needed when in fact it absolutely is.

 

Really it's not a problem with Singapore math, but a cultural difference in how the programs are used.

 

I personally wouldn't consider a child pre-algebra ready without fact fluency.

 

just my .02:)

[Laura Corin]

in Singapore, it's a given that drill is done separately, every single day, for 'x' period of time.

 

that bit of the success of Singapore math is lost in translation (so to speak) when US consumers use it. Too many assume that drill/repetition/mastery of facts isn't needed when in fact it absolutely is.

 

 

Drill is indeed done in Singapore schools - I asked at the Singapore International School in Hong Kong. Whether it is necessary for all children is another matter. Calvin and Hobbes have mostly picked up their maths facts by using them - I've never taught Hobbes what 8+5 is, but he's counted it up enough times that he knows it. If he wasn't getting it, and this was impeding his progress, I wouldn't hesitate to drill, but so far we haven't needed to.

 

Laura

[Strawberry Queen]

I would have to join in and say that adding in math fact practice is necessary. My dd doing sm3a is currently doing x working on her 6's-9's. I have to add in practice and enforce it because if it's not immediate knowledge then her work is painfully slow. (and then I have a bad attitude:D)

 

It's always a toss up to know when to stop for a while and solidify the facts, or when to press on to a new concept. I know for sure that I will require all of the basic facts for +,-, x,/ *will* be learned by the end of this year. (meaning immediate recall)

 

I think that some parents excuse children when they shouldn't. There are times when ld's are a problem. But if this is not the case, I think it's the laziness of the parents not requiring instant fact recall. Sometimes we need to be unrelenting, and at other times we need to give way. The trick is knowing what to do when.;)

[elegantlion]

The main text and workbooks don't emphasize drill, but it's assumed that the teacher is doing drill work as well as what's in the text. It's likely that a) a fair number of people use the program and skip the drill, and b) a fair number of people purposely skip the drill because they don't believe it's necessary (or necessary at that point). We delayed drill ourselves, and found that it came easily, but at a later point than many curricula require. One of the reasons Singapore is popular with some of us is that it doesn't emphasize drill to the exclusion of concepts, and it's easy to keep working on concepts while the drill is coming along at its own pace. Also, it's extremely easy to add in drill to a curriculum that already has good conceptual teaching, but more difficult to add concepts when a program is too focused on drill.

 

You also have to consider those who do the drill but whose kids don't necessarily "perform" in front of others. My DS is one of those. He has memorized math facts till the cows come home, but under stress he counts up. (And a babysitter going over lessons with him would be stressful.)

 

 

:iagree: My son has mild dyslexia and has had difficulty in memorizing his facts. When we use them daily in context he recalls them much more easily.

 

The word problems are what sold me on Singapore math. They are excellent.

[Dianne-TX]

when you all say "drill" what does that specifically mean? Flash cards, worksheets? Does "drill" mean memorization to you? Is it just practice? What methods of "drill" do you use? Thanks.

[KAR120C]

when you all say "drill" what does that specifically mean? Flash cards, worksheets? Does "drill" mean memorization to you? Is it just practice? What methods of "drill" do you use? Thanks.

Anything that helps with automaticity (rather than concepts) would count as drill in some way... So for instance DS has done worksheets, flashcards, copy work, card games, computer games, dice games, songs, strategies, and then just plain practice. We spent a lot of time on abacus work when he was learning to add, which is partly a conceptual skill (place value) and partly a strategy for memorization, and he did enough work that I would count it as just plain practice. He used to have the job of adding up our grocery bill as we shopped, and he routinely got it spot on with no errors in a week's worth of groceries.

 

DS really does know his math facts, and has for a long time. Most of his practice has been in the context of his regular math work rather than separate, because by the time we started separate drill (other than the abacus) he really knew almost all of the facts already. I teach a geometry class at our homeschool co-op, and in that setting, with other kids, he can spit out answers to 2 and 3 digit multiplication questions faster than most, worked out in his head. But if someone were paying attention to him directly he would almost certainly get flustered and count up rather than risk being wrong.

 

That said, I never gave him the answers before he had memorized them... I think his work memorizing was almost entirely done by having to work things out over and over. I helped him with strategies and explained concepts, but he always had to get his own answers. It sounds like the situation that LNC is describing might be different.

[kalanamak]

Yet, when I "babysit" these students and go through their lessons with them - they can't do a simple problem like 5+8 in their heads. I'm curious about a program that teaches so well conceptually, but doesn't drill the basics?

 

I'm in 1A, and the HIG comes to a point where it says that the child should know the addition and subtraction number facts up to 10 BEFORE moving on. So, I am working there.

 

Perhaps there aren't pages and pages of workbooks, or flashcards you tear apart that came in a kit, but the child still have to learn them. Sounds like the kids you are sitting with didn't have a teacher who made sure they were ready for the next step. I know my kiddo, who is not yet 6.5, could turn 5+8 into the easier 8+5 in his head, and they say to me 8+4 is 12, so 8+5 is 13. If he wants to!

[Myrtle]

I think his work memorizing was almost entirely done by having to work things out over and over. I helped him with strategies and explained concepts, but he always had to get his own answers.

 

Ditto from another Singapore user.

[nmoira]

Ditto from another Singapore user.

Myrtle!!!

 

:grouphug:

[Myrtle]

Myrtle!!!

 

:grouphug:

 

Hijack:

 

I am back from the dead.

 

But I'm going to be busy again: better meds, got a bird dog, got a shotgun, went trap shooting, sail training starts up again this weekend, discovered Cicero, and Howard Eves."

 

"Foundations and Fundamental Concepts" is not a traditional history of mathematics, but an investigation of the philosophical context in which new developments emerged."

[cillakat]

Anything that helps with automaticity (rather than concepts) would count as drill in some way... So for instance DS has done worksheets, flashcards, copy work, card games, computer games, dice games, songs, strategies, and then just plain practice. We spent a lot of time on abacus work when he was learning to add, which is partly a conceptual skill (place value) and partly a strategy for memorization

 

 

:iagree: games, games, did I mention games?, dice games, RS math card games, board games, flash cards, _Memorize in Minutes: The Times Tables_, strategies, songs, Aha! Math (homeschoolbuyersco-op.com), Math Fact Fluency (hsbc again), worksheets (not a fave around here but something we do occasionally use;p), TimezAttack (for improved speed once they know the facts).

 

At the bare minimum i 'drill' math facts for a couple of minutes a couple of times per day. We have working memory issues and processing speed issues so it's even more important. Oh, and dyslexia....so even math facts she knows down pat can suddenly float away, just outside her ability to pull them back as needed. For us, learning, overlearning and repetition are key. Short and sweet though. And varied.

 

:)

[Mamagistra]

Hijack:

 

I am back from the dead.

 

But I'm going to be busy again: better meds, got a bird dog, got a shotgun, went trap shooting, sail training starts up again this weekend, discovered Cicero, and Howard Eves."

 

"Foundations and Fundamental Concepts" is not a traditional history of mathematics, but an investigation of the philosophical context in which new developments emerged."

 

Great to 'see' you! :001_smile: Off to check out Mr. Eves...

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I can't answer for those students, but my son does most of his work in his head, which is something that Singapore emphasizes. Singapore teaches one to think mathematically. That said, one must know the basics first, of course, in order to be able to accomplish that.

 

Now, it's true that if one only completes the text/workbook of Singapore, and does no other extra drill work of any sort, then some children, at least, will not find that enough to make them comfortable in their basic math skills. My older son certainly needed extra practice galore in addition to Singapore. There are now a number of extra books available from Singapore which cover this need very well.

 

So, it may be that people presume that simply because pages have been checked off, then skill has been achieved, when in fact that is not the case.