Talent search testing for 3rd grader? Pros/Cons?

[ondreeuh]

My 3rd grader just did MAP testing through our school district and while his scores are great, it took a lot out of him. He spent 1 hr and 45 minutes on the math test and cried twice (luckily quietly enough no one noticed). He took about an hour on reading and only 30 minutes on language usage. He scored way off the charts, and I am very proud of him!

 

I am thinking of having him take the SCAT. It might be helpful to have CTY eligibility to provide options, especially if we end up moving to an Army or NATO base overseas. In that situation I would likely enroll him in the base school and work with them to offer appropriate challenge which could mean a CTY course. I have plenty already to challenge him at home, although he might like the chess and cryptography classes.

 

He hasn't needed like-minded peers yet. He is finally learning the give & take of socializing with kids around his age and is a total goofball in a group.

 

Besides SCAT for CTY, what other options are there? Are there pros or cons I'm not thinking of? Would you do the test just so you have it done, even if you don't need it?

 

 

 

 

 

[Dmmetler]

NUMATS offers testing for 3rd as well, and BESTS will do so if the parent requests, although normally they don't start until 4th.

 

I found the out of level test was a better choice than the grade level one and was more useful to me. It also did make DD eligible for various programs, although we haven't used it much. And it made the ACT/SAT much more familiar and comfortable, which did end up coming in handy for advocacy purposes.

[ondreeuh]

Thanks. NUMATS has a nice set of courses available too. I also looked at Athena's. I am a little shocked by the high prices by all of the providers! As long as I can challenge appropriately myself, I think I will skip the special courses. There are providers like JAM and Youth Digital that are a lot more affordable.

 

Is the EXPLORE test useful for a parent who already knows her kid's strengths & weaknesses, or is it better for proving eligibility for a program?

[lamppost]

Thanks. NUMATS has a nice set of courses available too. I also looked at Athena's. I am a little shocked by the high prices by all of the providers! As long as I can challenge appropriately myself, I think I will skip the special courses. There are providers like JAM and Youth Digital that are a lot more affordable.

 

 

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Athena's has live classes with the teacher and whole class present. You can participate asynchronously in some courses, but the price reflects that the teacher is there live every week at a specific time and the students are having a live discussion. Students complete assignments which are assessed and given feedback by the teacher, which takes additional time throughout the week.

 

Looks like Jam and Youth Digital involve watching prerecorded lessons where the student works at their own pace. Great for learning some things, but if what you're looking for is a lively discussion about big ideas, those won't meet that need.

Edited December 16, 2016 by lamppost

[ondreeuh]

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Athena's has live classes with the teacher and whole class present. You can participate asynchronously in some courses, but the price reflects that the teacher is there live every week at a specific time and the students are having a live discussion. Students complete assignments which are assessed and given feedback by the teacher, which takes additional time throughout the week.

 

Looks like Jam and Youth Digital involve watching prerecorded lessons where the student works at their own pace. Great for learning some things, but if what you're looking for is a lively discussion about big ideas, those won't meet that need.

 

Oh, I agree that they are not the same type of courses. I was just trying to say that as long as my son doesn't need the interactive, teacher-led type of courses, he will be satisfied with the cheaper enrichment ones like through JAM and YD.

 

[SeaConquest]

Thanks. NUMATS has a nice set of courses available too. I also looked at Athena's. I am a little shocked by the high prices by all of the providers! As long as I can challenge appropriately myself, I think I will skip the special courses. There are providers like JAM and Youth Digital that are a lot more affordable.

 

Is the EXPLORE test useful for a parent who already knows her kid's strengths & weaknesses, or is it better for proving eligibility for a program?

I thought the Explore was no more? My understanding is that there is no test for 3rd grade talent search, apart from the SCAT -- at least, according to Davidson. I asked them what I could offer for Sacha in 3rd grade, and was told that the only acceptable evidence for DYS was private IQ/Achievement testing (until he is old enough for the PSAT 8/9, which is a long test).

 

The SCAT is a very short test, and not an onerous test.

[wapiti]

I would see about a private WISC.  Just the test itself, without achievement testing (MAP would serve as achievement), and without major analysis, might not be terribly expensive - it depends on your area.  Check the websites of any local gifted schools for a tester recommendation, under the admissions tab (often such schools require an IQ test for admission).

[Arcadia]

My kids took the SCAT at 2nd and 4th grade when they just turned 8 and 9. There is an option to automatically send scores to school. So their public charter received a copy of their scores. They were already subject accelerated for math at that point for public charter, and the high verbal scores help with further subject acceleration for LA. The school had thought they were strong in math and normal in LA. They are equally strong actually in both.

 

My kids had state testing at that time but when your children are scoring so near the maximum score for math and LA, it doesn't say anything about what amount of subject acceleration is needed.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Arcadia

[ondreeuh]

I would see about a private WISC.  Just the test itself, without achievement testing (MAP would serve as achievement), and without major analysis, might not be terribly expensive - it depends on your area.  Check the websites of any local gifted schools for a tester recommendation, under the admissions tab (often such schools require an IQ test for admission).

 

His school did the Kaufman Brief IQ test (KBIT2) last year with absolutely no analysis, just an IQ standard score. I'm not feeling the need for in depth IQ testing (I know he is not 2E), but I assume the KBIT2 is not accepted for entry for most programs.

 

The MAP test isn't even THAT useful to me. I mean, I look at the example questions for 230 level reading and I am kind of dumbfounded that my child can get those right. Lots of subtle inferences and understanding nuances. I'm not going to fold him into his brother's high school literature work just yet, LOL. And while he scored as well as the average 11th grader on the math test, we are still going to do pre-algebra because I know he needs that firm foundation.

 

There is a standalone gifted classroom that he almost went to for this year, but I backed out at the last minute. He is happy homeschooling and I love teaching him. That class is a combined 3rd-5th, and while the teacher said she can supplement with higher materials as needed, it wasn't clear that he would be challenged there for 3 years given that he is already getting into middle school stuff now. Anchorage has a couple of programs for highly gifted students that would be a good fit when he is in 7th grade, but we have no desire to live in Anchorage ;). Maybe in 4 years we will decide it is worth moving into the district for that.

[wapiti]

And while he scored as well as the average 11th grader on the math test, we are still going to do pre-algebra because I know he needs that firm foundation.

 

Yeah, we can't use MAP scores that way (scoring as well as the average 11th grader does not equate with the student being ready for 11th grade math, not even close), plus the MAP 2-5 has a low-ish ceiling (that is, I don't feel that high-end scores are as meaningful as I'd like them to be, even though my kids tend to score very high on MAPs).  The MAP 6+ is a little harder to score high on, i.e. my kids tend to have a small percentile drop from the 2-5 test to their first 6+ (looks more like a score stagnation).

 

I've never looked, but I imagine that CTY and many/most school gifted programs would accept a private WISC, as it's not a screening instrument.  You might be able to get a private WISC for a few hundred dollars, especially if you have access a university with a grad program in gifted ed, psych or neuropsych (call department and ask).

 

I think you first need to determine what program you need scores for and then see what scores they will take.  If you do not need the scores for applying to a program in the very near future, then maybe it's best to wait a couple of years.  One year at a time, sigh...

[EndOfOrdinary]

MAP created a significant amount of test anxiety in my Ds. Crying, nosebleeds, nausea. The format just plain made him a basketcase and if the kid maxes out the test they just have them keep answering questions until they time it out (1:45 or 1:30). MAP was the only thing offered K-3rd with our state, so twice a year, every year. If your kiddo was super stressed, I might take a bit of time off.

 

EXPLORE gave us out of level results. None of the other testing we did allowed my son to be ranked with other gifted kids or ranked with such a large grade spectrum. That helped with anyone questioning the idea of extremely gifted. MAP just showed that he maxed out the test every year.

 

We waited until Ds was ready to take high school level courses for online providers. This was mainly due to the cost. By this point, he is getting executive function practice as well as transcript grades which come from someone other than me. It also shushes any lingering naysayers, since he is integrated with high schoolers. Before online providers, we used Great Courses and MOOCs. Same high level education, same instruction coming from someone other than Mom, but not the major output of money or stress on the line.

[ondreeuh]

MAP created a significant amount of test anxiety in my Ds. Crying, nosebleeds, nausea. The format just plain made him a basketcase and if the kid maxes out the test they just have them keep answering questions until they time it out (1:45 or 1:30). MAP was the only thing offered K-3rd with our state, so twice a year, every year. If your kiddo was super stressed, I might take a bit of time off.

 

EXPLORE gave us out of level results. None of the other testing we did allowed my son to be ranked with other gifted kids or ranked with such a large grade spectrum. That helped with anyone questioning the idea of extremely gifted. MAP just showed that he maxed out the test every year.

 

We waited until Ds was ready to take high school level courses for online providers. This was mainly due to the cost. By this point, he is getting executive function practice as well as transcript grades which come from someone other than me. It also shushes any lingering naysayers, since he is integrated with high schoolers. Before online providers, we used Great Courses and MOOCs. Same high level education, same instruction coming from someone other than Mom, but not the major output of money or stress on the line.

 

I do have a subscription to the Great Courses Plus, but he hasn't watched any yet (brother watches them alone). He is currently devouring Nova and Crash Course history videos, but of course those are topical and more visually interesting than watching someone lecture. Do you have a recommendation for a GC+ series that might engage him? He loves history, science, literature, music/composers, inventors, etc. Maybe Daily Life in the Ancient World?

 

[hellojwolford]

I thought the Explore was no more? My understanding is that there is no test for 3rd grade talent search, apart from the SCAT -- at least, according to Davidson. I asked them what I could offer for Sacha in 3rd grade, and was told that the only acceptable evidence for DYS was private IQ/Achievement testing (until he is old enough for the PSAT 8/9, which is a long test).

 

The SCAT is a very short test, and not an onerous test.

Yes, my DS 3rd grader took the PSAT 8/9 a couple weeks ago through NUMATS. That is the EXPLORE replacement. And it was a 3hr test-a long time for my little one to sit still!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EndOfOrdinary]

I do have a subscription to the Great Courses Plus, but he hasn't watched any yet (brother watches them alone). He is currently devouring Nova and Crash Course history videos, but of course those are topical and more visually interesting than watching someone lecture. Do you have a recommendation for a GC+ series that might engage him? He loves history, science, literature, music/composers, inventors, etc. Maybe Daily Life in the Ancient World?

 

Any of the travel ones are full of pictures and highly engaging. 30 Geological Wonders is neat and very visual. We LOVED How to Look at and Understand Great Art. Ds really liked Great Pharohs. The new heiroglyphlcs one is by the same Egyptologist and would probably be very engaging. World's Best Voyages is another visually interesting one.

 

Initially, we had only courses from the library on audio. So we would listen while Ds and I did other things. If watching doesn't hold his attention, just turn the screen off while he plays with Legos, colors, uses clay, whatever. I got a lot of knitting done the first year.

[SeaConquest]

Yes, my DS 3rd grader took the PSAT 8/9 a couple weeks ago through NUMATS. That is the EXPLORE replacement. And it was a 3hr test-a long time for my little one to sit still!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think we can participate in NUMATS in CA? It's only the midwest, right? Not sure how else we could take the PSAT 8/9.

[Alessandra]

You mentioned chess. If you are in a good area for chess, you might like to try some competition. Early elementary is a great time to begin. Check out the USCF (US Chess Federation) website.

[Dmmetler]

I don't think we can participate in NUMATS in CA? It's only the midwest, right? Not sure how else we could take the PSAT 8/9.

Contact them and ask. We are "zoned into" TIPS, but have had no trouble doing other talent search programs. The question would be whether there is a talent search site doing the PSAT in your area or not. Check soon for this year, though-usually the last talent search dates are in Feb or Mar.

[Arcadia]

I don't think we can participate in NUMATS in CA? It's only the midwest, right? Not sure how else we could take the PSAT 8/9.

Both my kids are in CTD NUMATS. They have kids from California participating. My kids are also in Duke TIP and CTY JHU. No restrictions on where your child is.

[SeaConquest]

Contact them and ask. We are "zoned into" TIPS, but have had no trouble doing other talent search programs. The question would be whether there is a talent search site doing the PSAT in your area or not. Check soon for this year, though-usually the last talent search dates are in Feb or Mar.

Yep. That's the issue. All their PSAT test centers are in the midwest. I think that's why I had it in my head that we couldn't do it unless we were in the midwest. Hmmm. What to do?

[SeaConquest]

It looks like Western Academic Talent Search has a site in Vegas, which is far, but more doable. He's not in 3rd until next year, so perhaps this will be an option. Or, maybe, I could find a gaggle of 20 kids to establish a test center in Southern CA.

[Arcadia]

Yep. That's the issue. All their PSAT test centers are in the midwest. I think that's why I had it in my head that we couldn't do it unless we were in the midwest. Hmmm. What to do?

When I did a search using San Diego as the city, I found at least two schools with Wed. March 15, 2017 test date for PSATâ„¢ 8/9 Spring 2017. You can put in your zip code and get better results, then maybe call and ask if you can take there.

https://ordering.collegeboard.org/testordering/publicSearchCont

[SeaConquest]

Also, CTY does offer the PSAT 8/9, but for 5th and 6th graders. Perhaps, we should just wait until then. 3 hours is a very long test for a 3rd grader.

[SeaConquest]

When I did a search using San Diego as the city, I found at least two schools with Wed. March 15, 2017 test date for PSATâ„¢ 8/9 Spring 2017. You can put in your zip code and get better results, then maybe call and ask if you can take there.

https://ordering.collegeboard.org/testordering/publicSearchCont

I saw that, but I thought you had to use one of the talent search test locations. Is that not correct?

[Arcadia]

I saw that, but I thought you had to use one of the talent search test locations. Is that not correct?

For a 2nd grader, he can just take the SCAT which is the very short test. Other than the SCAT which need a number from CTY JHU, none of the talent searches care where we took the qualifying tests as long as we pay them the talent search money which is separate from the testing fee. After all the online classes and summer camps are good revenue for them.

 

Duke was the picky one, I couldn't sign up my DS11 for the 4th grade talent search until he was in 4th grade and then I couldn't sign up DS12 for the 7th grade talent search until he is in 7th. However they took the results of past tests so there was no need for my kids to retake to qualify.

[OlgaLA]

Has anyone seen an actual or practice  PSAT 8/9 test? I am really curious how different math section is. I looked at PSAT, and it seems that without at least prealgebra, probably AOPS level, there is no point in taking it. Is it the same with 8/9? Or does it have at least some easier problems than PSAT? And it's not even that problems are hard, it's the way they are worded. We just finished BA4, and it doesn't look like it covered anything that was asked on PSAT.

[SarahW]

As far as I know, only sample questions of the PSAT 8/9 have been released. Never a whole practice test.

 

That drives me crazy. I like to sometimes evaluate where my kid stands with regard to peers/grade level/some standard and a grade level test doesn't tell me much, and the practice SAT/PSAT materials have stuff he just isn't ready for. An official practice PSAT 8/9 would be golden to me. Especially since we are effectively locked out of taking it "for real."

 

Maybe CB is not releasing a full test because of concerns over prep or cheating?? Or maybe they just don't see dollar value in releasing prep materials?

[SeaConquest]

As far as I know, only sample questions of the PSAT 8/9 have been released. Never a whole practice test.

 

That drives me crazy. I like to sometimes evaluate where my kid stands with regard to peers/grade level/some standard and a grade level test doesn't tell me much, and the practice SAT/PSAT materials have stuff he just isn't ready for. An official practice PSAT 8/9 would be golden to me. Especially since we are effectively locked out of taking it "for real."

 

Maybe CB is not releasing a full test because of concerns over prep or cheating?? Or maybe they just don't see dollar value in releasing prep materials?

Doesn't Khan Academy offer PSAT 8/9 prep? I haven't looked at the test yet, but seem to recall that.

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, the EXPLORE was similar-no full test, only a handful of questions. For timing purposes, I gave DD a practice ACT, telling her it was going to be hard and she wasn't expected to know much (FWIW, her composite on that practice test still was better than the average from my local district high school-and at the time, she had had no math beyond SM5b).

 

For talent search testing, my strategy is to tell DD that she hasn't had most of the content, that it's Ok, and to have fun. So far, she's stayed at about the same % rank nationally no matter the test (except for misgridding on the SAT math last fall).

[SarahW]

Doesn't Khan Academy offer PSAT 8/9 prep? I haven't looked at the test yet, but seem to recall that.

 

All I see is SAT. Maybe they'll add items for the PSAT(s) in particular in the future?