Tell me about logic stuff? Lollipop?

[Shred Betty]

I've browsed thru the "look inside " for lollipop logic at Amazon, but still can't decide if it will be just right or my DD will think it's too childish?

 

have any other suggestions on logic?

 

Edit: my DD is 8 years old.

 

Thanks!

Edited November 9, 2016 by Shred Betty

[silver]

Lollipop logic is more for K or 1st, I think. Primarily Logic might be better for an 8-year-old.

[SilverMoon]

My suggestion would be not to worry about it for now. 8 is little. WTM doesn't even schedule light logic puzzles until 5th grade age. Mine enjoyed the Mind Benders, Word Benders, and such in 4th-5th but I never saw any long term benefit from it. On my second time around with my middle two kids I had the puzzles out for them if they were interested, but I didn't add it to the school schedule. When they were ready for fallacies, more like 6th grade, I had them do Art of Argument. After that we did Argument Builder, and really interested kids could do Discovery of Deduction. These did have visible benefits and long term effects, especially in their composition.

[Shred Betty]

Lollipop logic is more for K or 1st, I think. Primarily Logic might be better for an 8-year-old.

They say k-2 for lollipop, that's why I'm torn... I've made a little list of topics but I don't remember or know what the following means until I get the book.

 

They both have analogies, relationships, and deductive reasoning practice.

Primarily logic also has problem solving and organizing

Lollipop also has inference, pattern decoding, critical analysis

 

I know it's silly in one way but I feel like we may be missing out on something - the things lollipop does that primarily does not.

my DD is not good at these kinds of things yet - we've never done it before, and she finds doing puzzles really really difficult for some reason.

Pattern decoding that's obvious, is inference like "if - then" thinking?

 

:) darn I think I started a thread myself about this awhile back... Sorry!

[silver]

I actually have all three Lollipop Logic books as well as Primarily Logic. I'd say the main difference between them is that Lollipop Logic is way more picture based and Primarily Logic has words to read/writing to do.

 

Here are the puzzle types found in the final book of the Lollipop Logic series:

Lollipop Logic Book 3

* Sequences: Number these pictures to show the correct order

* Relationships (puzzle type 1): Draw a circle around the picture that has something in common with the first picture (ex: a raincloud is the first picture and one should circle the picture of the umbrella)

* Relationships (puzzle type 2): A group of related things is in a box, and the student has to circle which pictures outside the box would belong with the items in the box.

* Analogies (puzzle type 1): Circle the thing that is related to the third thing in the same way the first two things are related (this is like the A:B as C:? problems, only with pictures). The first two items are shown and a third item is to be matched with a choice of 3 things.

* Analogies (puzzle type 2):  Choose the pair of pictures that are related to each other in the same way the top two pictures are related. Similar to the previous puzzles, but the first two items are shown and the entire analogy must be chosen that is similar to the first pair.

* Deduction: These are like the grid deduction puzzles, but much simpler. There are pictures that need to be matched given clues. One of the puzzles is about figure out which child threw which candy at a parade. It has clues like "Colton did not throw bubble gum."

* Pattern Decoding: Draw a line to the thing that should come next in each pattern.

* Inference (puzzle type 1): The inference section is like jig saw puzzles. It shows a picture with part of it missing and the student has to choose which of the puzzle piece options would fill in the empty space. 

* Inference (puzzle type 2): These are actually jig saw puzzles. There are four puzzle pieces shown, and without being able to manipulate them (they're printed on the page, not physical objects, after all), the student needs to figure out what the puzzle is a picture of.

* Inference (puzzle type 3): Draw a line to connect the pictures that go together (ex: a palm tree and some coconuts)

* Inference (puzzle type 4): Can you guess what these pictures are? (zoomed in pictures of things, like a part of a cactus)

* Critical Analysis: A group of pictures are given a label "These are santycrins" another group is shown with the caption "These are not santycrins". The student then has to figure out what features santycrinshave and decide what pictures would be included in the santycrins group.

[Guest]

My kids love doing stuff like this. It falls under the "joy" tab not the "mandatory" tab of life.

 

There are other things, too, like perplexors, analogy challenges, true lies (on Kindle). Plus games like rush hour. There are a tonne of great logic games.

[Farrar]

I wouldn't get Lollipop for an 8 yo. I mean, they wouldn't hate it - it might be fun for some kids to solve the puzzles and so forth, but it wouldn't stretch them at all and unless a child had learning issues of some kind, they'd likely get the whole thing done in like two days. It wouldn't be worth the money. I agree that Primarily would be a better choice. Or the first Logic Safari book paired with Analogies for Beginners.

 

I don't think these things are musts at all. And you could just do free sudoku printables or play Rush Hour or Set or other games. Mastermind is a really good ones. And there are lots for smart devices now that are great for logic, even some really popular games have a lot of that types of logic. But I do think doing some type of puzzles is good for kids.

[SilverMoon]

I didn't think of games. My 8yo does play lots of card games with her siblings. Just the normal childhood variety that's a mix of luck and strategy to win. Plenty of board games too.

 

Challenge math problems on the big white board as a family. (MOEMS books, etc) We take turns sharing our strategies.

 

Apps could be DragonBox5+, Flow Free, and such. There are gobs.

[purpleowl]

My DD enjoys the Blast Off with Logic series (Logic Countdown, Logic Liftoff, and Orbiting with Logic). I haven't used Primarily Logic, but it looks pretty similar (at least to Logic Countdown) based on the Amazon preview.

 

I consider the (free, self-paced) courses on Code.org to be in the same "family" as logic, so I'm having DD alternate between a logic book and Code.org activities. Might be something else to consider.

 

Oh, and logic is something I introduced because DD was interested in logical puzzler type things, not because I felt like she "needed" to learn it. It is one of her favorite subjects. 

[Alessandra]

I love Lollipop Logic and its kin. But I wanted to make one comment from my experience using it with a child who has some learning challenges. It can be difficult, because the type of problem changes from one page to another. I found that books with similar problems helped understanding and mastery more than books with varied problems. So, we especially liked things such as Logic Links. Obviously, this will vary child by child, and many will have a totally opposite experience.

 

At the other end of the spectrum, look at Stepping Stones thinking skills. RR is not kidding when they suggest you buy the answer guides. These problems are *totally* out of the box. Deceptively simple looking, but not easy at all.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Alessandra

[Jackie]

DD and I both prefer using games for logic. There are piles of logic-based games out there. I just started playing Ticket to Ride with my kid, and there's a lot of logic in that. Forbidden Island is all logic and cooperation. Gobblet is a favorite here, it's like a more complex (and far more interesting) version of tic-tac-toe.

 

For single player games, look at the ThinkFun website. They have more logic games than you'd ever likely get through!

[Shred Betty]

I actually have all three Lollipop Logic books as well as Primarily Logic. I'd say the main difference between them is that Lollipop Logic is way more picture based and Primarily Logic has words to read/writing to do.

 

Here are the puzzle types found in the final book of the Lollipop Logic series:

Lollipop Logic Book 3

* Sequences: Number these pictures to show the correct order

* Relationships (puzzle type 1): Draw a circle around the picture that has something in common with the first picture (ex: a raincloud is the first picture and one should circle the picture of the umbrella)

* Relationships (puzzle type 2): A group of related things is in a box, and the student has to circle which pictures outside the box would belong with the items in the box.

* Analogies (puzzle type 1): Circle the thing that is related to the third thing in the same way the first two things are related (this is like the A:B as C:? problems, only with pictures). The first two items are shown and a third item is to be matched with a choice of 3 things.

* Analogies (puzzle type 2):  Choose the pair of pictures that are related to each other in the same way the top two pictures are related. Similar to the previous puzzles, but the first two items are shown and the entire analogy must be chosen that is similar to the first pair.

* Deduction: These are like the grid deduction puzzles, but much simpler. There are pictures that need to be matched given clues. One of the puzzles is about figure out which child threw which candy at a parade. It has clues like "Colton did not throw bubble gum."

* Pattern Decoding: Draw a line to the thing that should come next in each pattern.

* Inference (puzzle type 1): The inference section is like jig saw puzzles. It shows a picture with part of it missing and the student has to choose which of the puzzle piece options would fill in the empty space. 

* Inference (puzzle type 2): These are actually jig saw puzzles. There are four puzzle pieces shown, and without being able to manipulate them (they're printed on the page, not physical objects, after all), the student needs to figure out what the puzzle is a picture of.

* Inference (puzzle type 3): Draw a line to connect the pictures that go together (ex: a palm tree and some coconuts)

* Inference (puzzle type 4): Can you guess what these pictures are? (zoomed in pictures of things, like a part of a cactus)

* Critical Analysis: A group of pictures are given a label "These are santycrins" another group is shown with the caption "These are not santycrins". The student then has to figure out what features santycrinshave and decide what pictures would be included in the santycrins group.

 

 

Thank you SO much for your time putting this post together! So helpful!

 

 

My kids love doing stuff like this. It falls under the "joy" tab not the "mandatory" tab of life.

There are other things, too, like perplexors, analogy challenges, true lies (on Kindle). Plus games like rush hour. There are a tonne of great logic games.

we are in our first yr of homeschool and we've gotten our "mandatory" tab stuff down pretty well so it's time to add in some more joy stuff! :D I will google your suggestions for myself as I'm not familiar but if anything leaps out at you as would help my DD with her unique challenges (stay tuned - after next quote) and her age at 8 let me know!

 

  

I wouldn't get Lollipop for an 8 yo. I mean, they wouldn't hate it - it might be fun for some kids to solve the puzzles and so forth, but it wouldn't stretch them at all and unless a child had learning issues of some kind, they'd likely get the whole thing done in like two days. It wouldn't be worth the money. I agree that Primarily would be a better choice. Or the first Logic Safari book paired with Analogies for Beginners.

 

I don't think these things are musts at all. And you could just do free sudoku printables or play Rush Hour or Set or other games. Mastermind is a really good ones. And there are lots for smart devices now that are great for logic, even some really popular games have a lot of that types of logic. But I do think doing some type of puzzles is good for kids.

Sudoku: I tried this route number puzzles even easy ones, still out of reach for her.

 

I'm going to tell you about my DD's personal struggles with jigsaws for a minute, as an example - maybe you can help me understand what's going on here or maybe you have different advice if you know a little more about why the details "matter" so much in our situation . I'm hoping someone wants to help me troubleshoot this a bit.

 

DD just turned 8. Zero learning issue that we know of knock on wood etc. We are new to homeschooling & I'm new to learning about her skills / challenges in various areas too. She is an AMAZING reader, amazing memorizer, ok to good in math, spelling is a big challenge but she's making good progress on that front with AAS but hates using the tiles so far. Art is a challenge. Stuff involving writing or drawing in general challenging but I don't see anything to concern me whatsoever. Has always been amazing at mazes when it comes to free printable style stuff but all the other types on krazydad are out of reach for her still.

 

Jigsaws: she will try, and try, and try to put an edge piece every way possible in a non edge piece hole and just not "see" that it belongs on the edge by its shape. She also does not seem to "see" the picture and colors very well on pieces and has trouble with the fact that a piece with this color/pattern on it is probably Elsa's dress so will eventually belong... Somewhere around this side of the puzzle.

Last spring I tried talking out loud while doing one explaining and modeling my thinking etc. I even made a diagrams haha. it was so strange. Seemed to help somewhat but when left to her own devices and I stopped hinting and controlling she reverted to stubbornly trying to put an edge piece on the inside again! Ugh. Or putting a corner piece where corners wouldn't belong.

 

We just did a pretty basic analogy type " which one does not belong" type exercise in our SM 1 book and she did not happen to be able to get it without help. Again, she did not "see" the important part of the pictures that differentiated them. For her, I am leaning towards the lollipop book because in my first quote in this post, the way Silver kindly described the types of "inference puzzle types 1, 2, and 4" exercises in such detail make me think it might help things click a little with her.

 

Knowing a little more now, could someone give me any insights on what I am missing here for what skills she needs to practice, or ways I can address strengthening these skills just thru basic conversation etc

 

I need to know if primarily logic has the equivalent of the "inference puzzle type 1, 2, and 4" as described.

 

TYIA!

[Farrar]

Huh. That's really interesting, Shred Betty. Primarily Logic doesn't have those IIRC. There are some other inferencing puzzles in there, but I don't remember ones like that. You can see the TOC on Rainbow Resource:

http://www.rainbowresource.com/proddtl.php?id=000420

 

Can she really not do the tiny sudoku? You referenced easy ones but also Krazydad, which I know starts with easy normal sized sudoku. What about the small ones here:

https://www.worksheetworks.com/puzzles/sudoku.html

 

I still think games might be the way to go. I'm thinking even Rush Hour Jr. might be way too hard though. What about the preschool type ones though - like Castle Logix? I'm sure there's other stuff out there too now that I'm not familiar with because my kids are older. Oh, and what about playing with really simple shapes puzzles. Like, Mighty Mind? Or some tanagrams? And I still think Mastermind is good (get the regular version and adapt it - the pegs are a mess in the junior version - all you need to do to adapt it is remove some colors and/or tape over some of the peg holes to make it easier).

 

And maybe some of the creative thinking books from Tin Man Press would be good? I haven't used this one, but maybe Looking Logic?

https://www.tinmanpress.com/things-to-do/looking-logic

If it looks promising but not quite right, poke around on their site - they have a lot of different things.

 

Good luck! It sounds like she has some sort of a learning disability and you might consider testing. Or it may be something that she learns to compensate for and isn't a big deal in the end. Dh cannot for the life of him manipulate shapes in his head or figure out visual puzzles. He's not as bad as what you describe for your dd, but he can't really do jigsaws either. And he's terrible about getting lost. But he always aced school back as a kid. Sometimes unusual learning issues don't have to be fully fixed... I guess it'll depend on how it ends up affecting her across the board...

[CadenceSophia]

You know, I was going to say no to lollipop for a 8 year old. My 4 year old likes them and they are on his level. My 6 year old did 22/52 pages in one the other day in a sitting (I have them in a binder with sleeves so we can dry erase.) BUT.. If you are thinking she really has something going on with space, orientation, and parts of images, they might let you see what is going on from the very very beginning. It would be a good way to identify difficulties as long as cost isn't an issue. You don't get much in each book for what you pay. Your daughter might not struggle and finish all three books in under a week. The logic safari books (next series that is more appropriate for 8 years old) is more word based. Not the same type of problems.

 

I kinda think all my kids stink at jigsaw puzzles though and it doesn't extend to anything else. They are very good at other types of puzzles but jigsaw gets low practice/low interest here.

 

My 8 year old just started Will Shortz's Monster Book of Sudoku for Kids and loves it. He's progressing independently but you could work them with her more deliberately and slowly if it's a challenge. It starts off with an example he works through and explains and then has 35 easy 4x4, 35 6x6, then moves into full size puzzles in increasing difficulty. I think 150 puzzles in all. I'll probably purchase this book for each of my children. It's such an easy way for them to learn the game.

[Earthmerlin]

I didn't think of games. My 8yo does play lots of card games with her siblings. Just the normal childhood variety that's a mix of luck and strategy to win. Plenty of board games too.

 

Challenge math problems on the big white board as a family. (MOEMS books, etc) We take turns sharing our strategies.

 

Apps could be DragonBox5+, Flow Free, and such. There are gobs.

Could you elaborate on the 'challenge math problems on the big white board as a family', please? It's piqued my interest & I wonder where you get such problems. Do you all discuss them at once, say over dinner? Very interesting....

[Shred Betty]

Can she really not do the tiny sudoku? You referenced easy ones but also Krazydad, which I know starts with easy normal sized sudoku. What about the small ones here:

https://www.worksheetworks.com/puzzles/sudoku.html.

Thanks for this link Farrar I'm doing this today :) wow, so helpful that it offers more starting help (why didn't I think of that as I way to help teach how to solve?? SMH!) I've only offered sudoku a couple times, she just hasn't gotten the point/rules down yet probably.

[Shred Betty]

You know, I was going to say no to lollipop for a 8 year old. My 4 year old likes them and they are on his level. My 6 year old did 22/52 pages in one the other day in a sitting (I have them in a binder with sleeves so we can dry erase.) BUT.. If you are thinking she really has something going on with space, orientation, and parts of images, they might let you see what is going on from the very very beginning. It would be a good way to identify difficulties as long as cost isn't an issue. You don't get much in each book for what you pay. Your daughter might not struggle and finish all three books in under a week. The logic safari books (next series that is more appropriate for 8 years old) is more word based. Not the same type of problems.

I kinda think all my kids stink at jigsaw puzzles though and it doesn't extend to anything else. They are very good at other types of puzzles but jigsaw gets low practice/low interest here.

 

My 8 year old just started Will Shortz's Monster Book of Sudoku for Kids and loves it. He's progressing independently but you could work them with her more deliberately and slowly if it's a challenge. It starts off with an example he works through and explains and then has 35 easy 4x4, 35 6x6, then moves into full size puzzles in increasing difficulty. I think 150 puzzles in all. I'll probably purchase this book for each of my children. It's such an easy way for them to learn the game.

Thank you :). The bolded sound a lot like us too, low practice and interest. Thanks for helping me think clearer about this by providing me word reminders - visual, spatial, orientation! It really helps me for some reason as I grapple with homeschool questions. It's strange, I know the word orientation but I don't apply them to my problems until someone in the hive reminds me :) :grouphug:

[silver]

The books have three puzzle types: pattern recognition (not just visual, also with numbers), spatial sense, and logic puzzles.

 

http://www.rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?subject=Logic/12&category=Critical+Thinking+Activities/3417

 

Cathy Duffy has a review on the two books for older kids that might help.

 

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-extras/critical-thinking-logic/critical-thinking-activities

[SilverMoon]

Could you elaborate on the 'challenge math problems on the big white board as a family', please? It's piqued my interest & I wonder where you get such problems. Do you all discuss them at once, say over dinner? Very interesting....

 

We aim for daily, but at least 3 times a week I put some challenging math problems on our big white board, along with a proofreading exercise and something else that rotates (memory pieces, art lessons, etc). Right now it has couple problems from Math Olympiad Contest Problems volume 2, a couple sentences to correct from Fix-It grammar, and a question from Philosophy For Kids. Some of the kids will work on it early on their own and scratch their answers down secretly. If there's something particularly challenging I'll pull the 8yo aside and walk her through it. Later today, probably around lunchtime, we will start at the top of the whiteboard and work our way down. We do it as a family. Everyone says their answer to the math problem and then we take turns explaining our method. Like a math club would. When someone is stuck I'll have another kid just say their first step, and so on until the stuck kid is unstuck. Then we'll work through the rest of the board and I'll finish by reading aloud from the current family story.

 

We have done this at dinner time if the day gets carried away with itself. Then Dad will be home from work and jumps in as a student too.

 

Math Olympiad says their first level is grades 4-6 and the second one is 6-8. Both are included in volume 2. We've started with the 4-6 part of the book. These problems are more about your ability to puzzle your way through the problem than they are about computational skills. If a kid is solid on the four basic functions, including multi-digit multiplication and long division, they are ready to begin the MOEMS problems. I've skipped problems the 3rd grader could do blindfolded, and put stars by the ones with concepts she hasn't covered (averaging mostly). Not even my middle schoolers always get the 4-6 problems right, the high schooler gets into it with us, and the 3rd grader has learned gobs of math vocabulary and reasoning. Zacarro books would also work for this, with maybe a longer session reading the chapter once or twice a week. If you're not ready for MOEMS perhaps a Challenging Word Problems or Intensive Practice from Singapore Math or the Enrichment book from Math in Focus would work.

Edited November 10, 2016 by SilverMoon

[Shred Betty]

I've pulled the trigger and ordered Dale Seymour's Critical Thinking Activities. I really wanted it in the summer based on TWTM recommendation but held back as priority was to other curric spending and $25 seemed like so much to ask but I understand it looks much higher quantity, quality, and value. Thanks for hand holding me through this!!!

 

It looks like it might be too hard for my DD where she is right now. I hope once given the challenge she enjoys rising to meet it!

Thanks again!

[lexi]

At that age my kids really like the Logic Safari books.