Syllable division in Barton 4 (or any other program)

[PeterPan]

Any brilliant tips here on things you did to make it more multi-sensory or make it click?  We've gone through most of the lessons, but we had to pause to work on ABA stuff.  Now we're back, getting caught up with the Barton 3 spelling (yay!!) and ready to go back through the syllable division and get this NAILED.  I was just reading an article on how 3rd grade is where these kids fall behind because they can't do the syllable division to read new words in texts.  So I'm motivated to get this going, as I know it's an issue for him.  Any brilliant tips?

 

I found this pinterest board https://www.pinterest.com/katei/og-syllable-division/  and the idea of writing the words and having strings of yarn for divisions seems good.  The other trick with him is I have to either use non-sense or go beyond his vocabulary, which is actually kind of hard with a boy with an 8th gr plus vocabulary, lol.  If there's any context at all or any ability to guess, he'll guess and get it.  

 

Fwiw, I have Rewards sitting in my pile now.  I looked through it and then got busy.  I'm thinking it could give me a fresh presentation or some fresh word lists.  Even biology terms or aeronautical terms or anything would work.  I might as well push it into 4-5 syllables or blow the lid off it.  Ok, back to two syllables, lol.  

 

Any tips?  Pep rally?   :)

 

I thought about AAR, just for the charm factor, but I don't want the expense and don't want to deal with ANOTHER system on top.  I think we just need more practice and some multi-sensory methods that get him doing it enough (while keeping his frustration down) that it clicks.

SaveSave

Edited November 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Code Lyoko]

I actually don't but I hope you get some great responses.  How it was presented in Barton worked great for DD and pretty well for DS.  There were other things in Level 4 that were gosh awful hard to get through and I felt like I was making us walk on broken glass backwards to get through them but not syllable division.  That clicked beautifully.  I wish I could help but I'm sure someone has some great ideas and will post soon. Hugs and best wishes.

[displace]

We worked on one syllable type at a time: CVVC, C/VC, CV/C, VCCV, VCCCV (not in that order).

 

We spent one week or more for each pattern concept and only did those patterned words that week to practice decoding.

 

I called it secret spy decoding school. Word typed or written on paper in large font. Vowels labelled and consonants labelled and underlined. Cut with scissors where word is broken, figure out if open or closed vowel. Repeat.

 

I used real words but some were difficult so there was not much guessing (we did not use nonsense). Practice 5-10 words per day. Progress from cutting to drawing line between syllables.

 

Example: word is Thunder

Label first and second vowels with V under, then label consonants between with C's. Clear pattern of VCCV is seen. Cut between C's. Figure out first syllable thun is closed and pronounce. figure out second syllable der is closed and pronounce.

 

If the word is more than two syllables, continue to label and cut. The physical separation helped with pronounciation, but using tiles is fine.

[PeterPan]

I really like this scissor idea!  You're right that the multi-sensory is totally lacking with Barton.  She just doesn't harness it to the level that my ds could use it.  And she does things that really don't work for us like making up names for rules.  Names make no sense either, so they're more clutter to discard or work around.  

 

So on VCCV, that makes sense that you can CHOP and have it work.  But what about V/CV and VC/V, where you have to divide and slide, see what you get, then REVERSE if the open syllable doesn't work?  If you chop that, you can't unchop, lol.  And for multi-syllable words, you keep repeating that whole divide and slide, reverse when it doesn't work process.  Actually, I think I'm saying that's what I hated.  I never needed any of that to read, and the syllable division rules are just tedious.  Did your OG training give you a more tight presentation that made that work?  

[PeterPan]

I found this https://ogforall.com/category/syllable-division/  And in going through her list, it's pretty much like Barton's lists.  He was fine with all those.  The VCV was tedious.  The issue is when you combine them into multi-syllable words. Then you're doing it like three, four times, and it's a total pain and a mess.  Were there any strategies for that?

[PeterPan]

These videos show the markings displace is describing. http://www.ortongillinghamonlinetutor.com/syllable-division-rules/

[Code Lyoko]

I will be honest, I do wish she would revamp Level 4.  It is sooo much harder than any other level we have been through.  I love Barton.  I really, really do.  But Level 4?  I wish she would redo it.  Although like I said syllable division was a breeze for DD with Level 4.  There were other areas that were serious issues but not syllable division.  Every child is different.  I hope the rest of the lessons go smoothly and you find a way to make syllable division make sense, OhE.  Best wishes.

[Lecka]

Something I liked with my older son was to read a passage (or whatever) with the syllable division lines drawn in for him, then erase for him to read again.

 

It worked well for him. I did it with punctuation and phrasing also.

 

I did teach the patterns also, but for practice that helped him.

 

He did better practicing a lot before being asked to do it on his own, so he could practice reading words without having to divide the syllables himself. I think it helped his confidence a lot and he could practice the patterns correctly.

 

I had read a book about learning to recognize common syllable chunks and I think it helped with that. Like -- if you come to the word "remember" and "ber" jumps out at you as a chunk

you recognize, then you have a much easier time figuring out the word, than if you don't recognize that chunk.

 

If you recognize re as a chunk also, you are most of the way there.

 

Not that a word has to be divided that way, it could start with re and not be "re" in the word.

 

But that was part of how we practiced.

 

He wanted to do real reading but nothing that seemed hard, too.

 

I had the advanced phonics book by Wiley Blevins and I remember it had a lot of game type

ideas.

 

It might be at the library.

 

Edit: teaching phonics and word study in the intermediate grades

Edited November 6, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

‎www.mspecmillburn.org/uploads/DK_Orton_Gillingham_Classroom_-_Nov_18__2013.pdf  Interesting for it's use of "houses" for the syllables.

 

 

[PeterPan]

Lecka, I'll have to look for that Blevins book.  I think I got it from the library once, ages and ages ago, lol.  Yes, OG calls them r-controlled syllables, so the -ber is a chunk they would want you to recognize as that.  I can't remember if we talked about that in Barton.  I called those pairs "pirates" and I can't remember that we used them as a type of syllable.  And if I don't remember, it's no shock he's not doing it.

 

The challenge with him is that his vocabulary can get him through almost any word in context.  Remember, he reads 2-3 grades above what he decodes.  My concern is that when he sees a multi-syllable word out of context, or when it's new and *not* familiar or guessable, he's not even close and doesn't have the proficiency to decode it.  The article I was reading said that's what holds them back for academic reading (reading to learn, reading for content) starting in 3rd, so that's what I have to fix.  And yet it's something that you don't really *notice* if you just give him material, because he can just get through with his high vocabulary.  But it's still an issue and an issue I want to fix.  

 

I like the explicitness and visualness of the OG analysis.  The videos I'm finding are showing the marking system displace discribed, and I think it's pretty sensible and a good way to organize things.  It's more visual.  We've just been doing analysis with words, because that's all the tools we had.  Maybe Barton had more and I missed it?  It's possible.  I'm just saying it has been very flat, not alive, not kinesthetic.  The more visual and hands-on we can make it for him, the better.  So cutting the words, drawing on them, stamping C and V on them, anything like that would be awesome, love those ideas.

[caedmyn]

Can he use the method they teach in Rewards? It's a lot less involved than what is talked about in that link. But I don't see how it's possible to get unknown words correct every time if they have a pattern that could be either an open or closed syllable. Because there's no rules governing whether it's open or closed, right? So you just have to guess, and if you guess wrong, and don't already know the word, there's no way to know to correct yourself.

[PeterPan]

I didn't realize Rewards was different.  I looked through it when it came.  I had thought it was going to be very worksheety and something I could hand the tutors, but it requires more knowledge (than they would have).  Time for me to get it back out and compare!

Edited November 6, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[caedmyn]

You might also look at the programs Sopris has for after Rewards Secondary. I think they are called Rewards also. There's a science one and a social studies one. I would think the science one at least would have some words that he wouldn't know.

[Heathermomster]

I"m reading this and am shocked. DId Barton not start with marking words immediately? Are they starting in book 4?

[PeterPan]

Caedmyn, I was rabbit trailing Lecka's suggestion Product : Teaching Phonics & Word Study in the Intermediate Grades and the site suggests Product : Week-by-Week Phonics & Word Study Activities for the Intermediate Grades as a workbook to go with it.  Amazon.com: Week-by-Week Phonics & Word Study Activities for the Intermediate Grades: 35 Mini-Lessons With Skill-Building Activities to Help Students Tackle ... Their Fluency, Vocabulary, and Comprehension (9780439465892): Wiley Blevins: Books Amazon has samples.  It has whole grids of words for each skill, and they're out of context.  The Wiley book also suggests *names* which I thought was pretty witty!  

 

Heathermomster, no, faint and die, but Barton is really spartan (haha, sorry, had to) on the multi-sensory.  You've got the blessed tiles, but that's about it.  I'm not  trying to complain/criticize Barton on this, because admittedly my ds is the EXTREME example.  I mean, he's something they say shouldn't even exist (a dyslexic with autism) and he's gifted and needs some repetition but not extreme but also needs KINESTHETIC, downright kinesthetic, because his language issues always glitch up what you THINK you're communicating.  

 

So it might be that Barton alone really IS enough for the intended market.  I've never perceived ds that way, as its intended market.  However I've also noticed people dropping like flies at level 4, which means to mean something is amiss.  You shouldn't have to go 3 times through the same material just to get any comprehension and application.  There should have been more tools, more methods, more analysis, more connection-making, more application, and at more levels.  It's a HUGE topic, and the exploration is too brief.  

 

And, remember, I've got a dc who fundamentally does not GENERALIZE content.  Barton is consistently frustrating for autistic students in that respect.  She makes funky, meaningless, non-communicative names and expects people to know what in the WORLD the names mean (and remember them, and use them) and she does not give enough instruction to generalize.  I fought it in B1 and B2 by re-ordering everything and doing it all my way.  I was just dumb, dumb, dumb in B4 and thought all would be swell if I followed the experts.  Imagine that.  So be a lemming, get lemming results.  So now that I'm UNHAPPY with the results, I'm having to go back and rethink and do better.  And it's not like we accomplished nothing.  It's just that he's not able to decode a longer multi-syllable word out of context.  He doesn't have it cold and doesn't have a flow chart in his brain to work through, meaning he's going to be no more proficient than any other guessing dyslexic, which isn't acceptable.

 

I think I'm on a rant.

[aaplank]

As an O-G tutor I always use nonsense words with all new material. The review words are real words but the new concept words are 100% nonsense. Especially with older kids, I want to be sure they are not using context or familiarity to decode the word. You just have to make sure that the letter patterns are something you would see in English. For instance, you could have prebmisook, but not prebmisiik.

 

Angling for Words is a good resource, with some nonsense words arranged according to sentence pattern.

[PeterPan]

Oh, and if I want I can pay a tutor $80 an hour to figure it all out for me.  But I don't think they get it either.  The autism really adds a twist, because the generalizing and naming are constant issues.  And the 2E means you have to think harder.  It's too easy for him just to suck it all in but not understand, not be able to apply, not generalize.

[PeterPan]

As an O-G tutor I always use nonsense words with all new material. The review words are real words but the new concept words are 100% nonsense. Especially with older kids, I want to be sure they are not using context or familiarity to decode the word. You just have to make sure that the letter patterns are something you would see in English. For instance, you could have prebmisook, but not prebmisiik.

 

Angling for Words is a good resource, with some nonsense words arranged according to sentence pattern.

 

Did you have multi-sensory methods you use when tackling multi-syllable words?  Or do you find that you just practice the isolated patterns so much that by the time they get to four foot words it's just glib and obvious?  Is it a lack of *practice* on our part of the isolated patterns?

[Lecka]

E -- I didn't like the companion book for my son's age. A lot of the activities are crossword puzzles with tiny boxes. He was in probably 2nd grade and I wouldn't get it for a 2nd grader. (For the Wiley Blevins.)

 

The main book has a lot of ideas for multisyllable words. I used a lot of ideas from it.

 

Edit: the book of worksheets was just too worksheet-y. And *really* for the age level it says.

 

Edit: the week-by-week book.... it was unusable for me for what I wanted and my son's age.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Lecka

[Laura Corin]

I would think about what syllable division accomplishes and whether it's useful for you.  I used a US programme with my boys and discovered that the syllables did not alway divide correctly for my accent, nor were closed and open syllables always correct (compare ZEE-bruh to ZEB-ruh).

 

I just didn't teach syllable division, concentrating instead on the letter sounds building through the word instead (z-e-b-r-a).  If the word came out oddly, we played until it sounded right.  My boys learned to read fairly easily, so this might not be relevant to all, but I just wanted to raise the question of usefulness.

[PeterPan]

Laura, that's a really good point.  I kind of felt that way, and there's a sense in which his massive vocabulary *could* cover over a lot.  It probably will in fact.  But I know, from watching others, that inability to decode an unfamiliar word is VERY embarrassing to adults. If I can get this skill stronger, I'd like to.

 

And now, for a good laugh.  I've decided to go ahead and order Barton 5.  I looked over the list, and now I see what's wrong.  I had concluded, after looking at Angling for Words and the other things y'all linked, that we really needed to get more going with pre-fixes and suffixes to get him able to to this more confidently with more advanced words.  Well that's what Barton 5 does, and I'm such a goober I didn't realize it!  

 

So I ordered B5, and I'll go ahead and get the app version of 5 as well.  That way I'll have the tiles, so we can flex it and get this moving forward.  We just haven't been using Barton traditionally, which makes it seem so odd.  I had wanted to stop going forward and catch up with what was behind.  Like literally, when we paused Barton 4, he was struggling with the spelling in Barton 2!  But now, thanks to some pleasant, consistent effort, he's making good tracks through level 3 for the spelling component.  He also now reads with pretty decent prosody, something we didn't have before.  We've just come a long way.  But I think we're going to have to plow forward into 5 and let some of this sort of pile up so that there's enough info that we can organize it in his brain.  I didn't teach the phonograms in the slow way they suggest either but taught them all upfront, all the sounds, everything.  I was making sure it was organized in his brain.  And I think that's what is actually going on here, that Barton takes through level 7 (now that I'm looking at it) to get all the syllable types taught.  The pirates (R-controlled) aren't taught until level 7.  That's why we didn't recognize them.  Now are they essential? No, lol.  But I was feeling silly that I didn't know them.  

 

So anyways, it's easier for me to stick with what I've got, now that I've got him able to use the app, etc. We had behaviors with that, but now it's going REALLY well.  He's writing words with the tutor and can use the app with her or me and spell words on the list and have appropriate behaviors.  So that's good.  That's something we can go forward with.  

 

And really, it's BORING not to go forward.  I know Barton says to nail stuff and be freakish, but he's so HAPPY with our disjointed approach.  It feels really appropriate for him, for his age.  It doesn't seem reasonable to link everything super tightly and say he has to nail spelling and physically writing the words and reading and... and just to go forward and learn some pirates, mercy.  

 

So anyways, that's what I did.  I ordered Barton 5, and I'll kick it up a bunch with the Wiley words and ideas.  I definitely like some of the ideas I was seeing in his stuff.  

[Code Lyoko]

FWIW, Level 5 of Barton was a breeze here compared to Level 4.  DD flew threw and enjoyed it.  And it made all the difference in being able to break down and decode longer words.  HUGE difference.

[Code Lyoko]

I"m reading this and am shocked. DId Barton not start with marking words immediately? Are they starting in book 4?

Except for Level 1 kids are marking words all along but they don't start with multi-syllable words until Level 4.

 

Actually, Level 1 doesn't work with words at all with regards to sounds associated with letters.  It just deals with sounds and breaking up and putting back together sounds.  That was the level that was critical for my kids but not all kids need to go back that far (of course some need to go back even further with LiPS or Foundations in Sound).  There is no marking anything, though, because it is just working with sound without letters.  

 

Level 2 is consonants and focusing on short vowel sounds and really nailing what those sounds are and when they occur and yes the student marks them and break them up with tile and writes them and etc. but it is very, very basic.  Necessary for a lot of kids to do this but there isn't much to "Mark".  

 

Level 3 is closed syllables and units and blends and digraphs and things like when to use K at the end and when to use CK at the end.  And yes, kids mark the words and use the tiles and stuff like that.  I add in more dry erase board stuff and sometimes use shaving cream and other more tactile things.  Barton definitely encourages tutors to add in whatever tactile or other additional things are needed for things to click.  We also play the card games from Spelling Success.  But again these are basic words, no open syllable words, no multi-syllable words.  

 

Keep in mind that some kids can get through Level 1-3 in just a few months.  It isn't like each level is supposed to take a year.  

 

Level 4 makes this enormous leap.  In level 4 the student now has to deal with open syllables, multi-syllable words, when to use C, K or CK in the middle of a word (which took for.e.ver. for my kids to truly grasp), more advanced vowel teams, etc.  It covers a LOT of things that a student has to be flexible enough to learn about.  Meaning they have been taught about one set of rules and learned how to internalize and apply those rules but now they have to make the mental leap into learning about all these more complex scenarios where things they already learned don't fit with these other kids of words.  It is a hard level.  And yes, the student is still marking words, as they have since Level 2.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Code Lyoko

[PeterPan]

When you say marking, what am I missing?  Were we supposed to be writing something and going CVVC markings like what I'm seeing online?  What are the markings?

[PeterPan]

I need to look at the Spelling Success games again.  I keep looking at them, not ordering.  Well I don't order mainly to save the money, lol.  The names in Barton are an utter, utter mess for him.  Autism comes with naming issues, and those names are just so confusing and non-communicative.  I think they must rely on inferences or assumptions about what they mean.  

 

So if the games would help us work around the (removing not nice word) names of the rules to get to some actual verbalizable meaning, that would be nice.  I find myself reverting to the rules chants from SWR or making something up to fill the gap.

[Laura Corin]

The decoding mistakes that I hear from bright adults tend to be loan words from other languages. I've heard problems with Calliope and jalapeño. I messed up Yosemite as an adult.

[Code Lyoko]

When you say marking, what am I missing?  Were we supposed to be writing something and going CVVC markings like what I'm seeing online?  What are the markings?

Marking things like the short vowel sound and the units and things like that.  Not diagramming like with some very intense Grammar programs but simple marking.  And of course in Level 4 then you start marking syllable division since now there are multi-syllable words.  Do you use the Extra Practice pages and the extra suggestions at the back of the TM?

 

I realize that you have a very unique situation with your son so I realize that much of what is suggested there probably won't help.  I did find that some of it was quite helpful to my kids but each one responded differently so it was very trial and error.  Some things would help one and not the other while the next child would respond to some other thing better.  :)

[PeterPan]

Ok, that's done.  I ordered the Spelling Success games.  I had been meaning to, because they'd be easy for me to implement on low days for me (like post-pneumonia, ha!) or good with the tutor.  So now that's done.  I got the rules games for levels 3,4,6,7,8 and the suffix/prefix games.  Threw in the new hopping along which, rats, is stupid expensive.  It better be good.  He's a whiz at contractions and learns those easily.  Sight words are easy for him too.  We just plug them in Quizlet. 

 

I think the practice will be nice for the rules.  If not, we'll sell off.  At least I tried.  I'm all in, haha.

[Code Lyoko]

I need to look at the Spelling Success games again.  I keep looking at them, not ordering.  Well I don't order mainly to save the money, lol.  The names in Barton are an utter, utter mess for him.  Autism comes with naming issues, and those names are just so confusing and non-communicative.  I think they must rely on inferences or assumptions about what they mean.  

 

So if the games would help us work around the (removing not nice word) names of the rules to get to some actual verbalizable meaning, that would be nice.  I find myself reverting to the rules chants from SWR or making something up to fill the gap.

If you hate the words she uses to explain things then you may not like Spelling Success.  The Spelling Success card games specifically help the student remember those words/phrases/labels and apply the meaning behind them.  The words are meant to help remember when to use something.  Such as the Kiss the Cat rule helps remind the student that if the "k" sound is followed by a "watch out" vowel (e,i,y) then you need to use a "K" and when the "k" sound is followed by a non-watch out vowel you use a "C".  These phrases actually did help my kids but if they aren't helping a child I could see that being very frustrating to have to deal with them.

 

What I found was that when I really worked with them on the meaning behind those phrases then they started to use the phrases when they got stumped and then eventually they no longer needed the phrases because they had internalized the rules and could just apply them.  Sometimes we had to really review though.  It wasn't something intuitive.  Well, nothing about the process of learning to read/write/spell has been intuitive.  LOL.  And if I myself wasn't understanding or remembering what the phrase was referring to then we were all lost.  I had to make some effort to learn the phrases and internalize them myself.  But yeah, if the phrases aren't helping either one of you learn any of this that could be horrifically frustrating.

 

I think in your situation you are just dealing with such a large and complex group of strengths and weaknesses that no program is going to be a perfect fit.  I admire you for working so hard to tweak and work through and experiment and try to make things a better fit for your son.  I applaud you for your efforts and dedication.

[PeterPan]

Marking things like the short vowel sound and the units and things like that.  Not diagramming like with some very intense Grammar programs but simple marking.  And of course in Level 4 then you start marking syllable division since now there are multi-syllable words.  Do you use the Extra Practice pages and the extra suggestions at the back of the TM?

 

I realize that you have a very unique situation with your son so I realize that much of what is suggested there probably won't help.  I did find that some of it was quite helpful to my kids but each one responded differently so it was very trial and error.  Some things would help one and not the other while the next child would respond to some other thing better.   :)

 

I need to go look up the extra practice pages.  So you're saying it's in there?  Honestly, he was extremely, extremely challenging to teach.  We had terrible non-compliance, meltdowns, eloping.  It was like hello can we be sort of in one spot for 10 minutes together without having a meltdown?  And meltdown meant like stuff destroyed in his bedroom, everything off the walls, people hurt.  And somehow we got through most of level 4 that way, just in bits.  He's really astonishingly bright to work with, very fun.  But that's why we had to pause and bring in ABA, and that's why a lot is imperfect.

 

Now we have a lot more self-regulation.  He has an office and a routine and can choose to sit at a table and be together.  And he still needs lots of breaks (and gets them!) but it's all calm.  It's not like it's perfect, but things are better.  So now we're going back through how do I get this back on track and get us moving forward again.  We've been moving forward, but it was that undercurrent stuff.  I took all the spelling tests from Barton 2, then 3, stapled them in a packet, got the app, and made a marking system for anyone who works with him to log data.  It's basically like any other ABA (discrete trials) but with Barton words, lol.  So they work on compliance, having appropriate behaviors with the app, and over time we've made some progress there.  She just gave me his paper last week showing that he wrote (passed) the spelling test for Barton 3 lesson 5.  That's pretty cool!  So he's just all over the place, with reading at one level, decoding at another (lower), spelling at another (much lower).  

 

We had behaviors with trying to get him just to sit and read.  And you would think oh, let it come, but it's a really wicked combination when you have an SLD making it hard and extreme rigidity and b&w making him think why bother.  Like he literally just kind of concluded it was hard and not what he would do!  So he just wasn't.  A kid who can "read" and answer multiple choice questions on 5th/6th grade material wasn't reading ANYTHING by choice!  And if you try to "make" him, well good luck with that, lol.  Then you're right back to behaviors and compliance, lol.  

 

For that I ended up getting ridiculous packets of ebook pages from TCR.  I mean he's doing like 9 pages at a time, with 4 pages of logic puzzles interspersed to keep him happy.  And after he does all those pages, reading and answering simple questions that stretch him on inferences, summarizing, etc., etc., he SPURTS on reading!  It's actually kind of wild.  He literally will sit down and read 2-3 books that evening (Barton books, etc.).  It's so INVERSE of what you would think, kwim?  Like you'd think he'd be tired and worn out and stop, and instead he's more confident and goes at it!  Crazy.

[PeterPan]

Lyoko, thanks for that explanation.  Yes, I think that's what I'm hoping will happen.  Even numbers were that way and the colors on the c-rods.  I went back and forth with RB about this, because I'm like but the names don't MATTER.  They meant nothing to him and could have been Africa or George or anything else.  They were that arbitrary and frustrating.  But she's like no, keep at it, use them till the names GET meaning, and then they'll be useful to you.

 

So I agree that can happen and I like your thought process there.  That's why I ordered the games.  I think you're right that it will happen.  My philosophy is always that just because it's hard doesn't mean he can't DO it.  It might just take 4 times longer than everybody else, and that's ok!  

 

I think working on those games will support the spelling work.  He didn't need them for the *reading* piece to advance, but I think they have to come in for the spelling.  And frankly, his tutor has only taken reading instruction classes in college, which means she actually knows nothing about teaching reading, lol.  She might know something, but it's not OG.  I'm always checking things and watching for stuff that creeps in.  She's cool with learning and wants to learn, but she doesn't come in already knowing this stuff.  So getting the rules games will actually be good for her too, because then they'll both have them to explain what they're doing as they work forward in the lists.  The more I can have the tutor (entry level, a college student) do the spelling, the more I can focus on the decoding and the more forward level stuff.  It frees me up to have that ping pong, and it's cover my butt for when real life happens.  Unfortunately, real life happens.

[Code Lyoko]

There are two extra practice pages with each lesson that are in the pages sent in the box but there are 3 other pages per lesson that you can print out from the website.  I just automatically print those out when I get the next level and put them in plastic sleeves.  I don't use every page but they cover different things so some pages might be helpful for one child and others might be helpful for another child.   I just find it easier to already have them available.  And if I am sick or busy or we head out of town it is nice to have those around so we don't lose ground.  We use them with dry erase markers and the pages can be used again later if needed.

[displace]

I really like this scissor idea! You're right that the multi-sensory is totally lacking with Barton. She just doesn't harness it to the level that my ds could use it. And she does things that really don't work for us like making up names for rules. Names make no sense either, so they're more clutter to discard or work around.

 

So on VCCV, that makes sense that you can CHOP and have it work. But what about V/CV and VC/V, where you have to divide and slide, see what you get, then REVERSE if the open syllable doesn't work? If you chop that, you can't unchop, lol. And for multi-syllable words, you keep repeating that whole divide and slide, reverse when it doesn't work process. Actually, I think I'm saying that's what I hated. I never needed any of that to read, and the syllable division rules are just tedious. Did your OG training give you a more tight presentation that made that work?

The OG training really helped (and explained it better than I did!). With VCV words I would do one week or more of V/CV (taught first as it is more common), and a separate time for VC/V. So the cut should be known where to happen. Later, as cutting is not necessary, it's easy to draw a line in pencil and erase if wrong (with an unknown syllable division), or even just covering up parts of words.

 

I didn't use Barton for syllable division, but we just call the rules "VCCV". They are listed on a sheet I use from most to least common so I sometimes say rule 1-VCCV.

 

With syllable division, I'd start with only two syllable words and then three syllables later with VCCV. Usually, DS would be able to read the last two syllables without cutting after a bit of practice. It really didn't take long for us, but we may be an anomaly.

 

For instance, the first week would be only VCCV, two syllables, cutting the whole week (and closed vowels too). Then two syllables VCCV but some open vowels at the end. Then maybe three syllables still with VCCV patterns, mostly closed. By then we had already stopped cutting.

 

Each new concept was cutting first day only, one word per paper, then just drawing and practice for five-ten words per day.

 

Idk if any of this made sense. I'm on my phone and haven't eaten yet 😄

[PeterPan]

The EP pages are on the website in the tutor section, yes?  I think I printed them in the lower levels, like maybe level 2.  Sometimes I get freakish, like kind of worried I'm not doing enough, so I was trying to pull back and not be so freakish, kwim?  I don't think I ever looked at the EP pages for level 4, mercy.  

[PeterPan]

There are two extra practice pages with each lesson that are in the pages sent in the box but there are 3 other pages per lesson that you can print out from the website.  I just automatically print those out when I get the next level and put them in plastic sleeves.  I don't use every page but they cover different things so some pages might be helpful for one child and others might be helpful for another child.   I just find it easier to already have them available.  And if I am sick or busy or we head out of town it is nice to have those around so we don't lose ground.  We use them with dry erase markers and the pages can be used again later if needed.

 

Ok, ba da bing!  I missed this and wrote before you posted.  We were doing some of the colored pages initially (during B1, B2) and then we got behind.  When the tutor came in, I think I tried to hand them to her and nothing happened.  We were all dealing with a lot of behaviors, kwim?  Like try teaching a squirrel.  That bites.  That's about how fun it was.  

 

And there's sort of that line where they're nifty and you're like ok I've got SO many pieces at SO many different levels (not all at one level like a traditional student), so what is essential to go back and do and what was just bonus or busywork, kwim?  But you're right, I can bring those out.  It's just a matter of the doing.  And if they're super essential, we can get way more diligent about them.

[Code Lyoko]

Lyoko, thanks for that explanation.  Yes, I think that's what I'm hoping will happen.  Even numbers were that way and the colors on the c-rods.  I went back and forth with RB about this, because I'm like but the names don't MATTER.  They meant nothing to him and could have been Africa or George or anything else.  They were that arbitrary and frustrating.  But she's like no, keep at it, use them till the names GET meaning, and then they'll be useful to you.

 

So I agree that can happen and I like your thought process there.  That's why I ordered the games.  I think you're right that it will happen.  My philosophy is always that just because it's hard doesn't mean he can't DO it.  It might just take 4 times longer than everybody else, and that's ok!  

 

I think working on those games will support the spelling work.  He didn't need them for the *reading* piece to advance, but I think they have to come in for the spelling.  And frankly, his tutor has only taken reading instruction classes in college, which means she actually knows nothing about teaching reading, lol.  She might know something, but it's not OG.  I'm always checking things and watching for stuff that creeps in.  She's cool with learning and wants to learn, but she doesn't come in already knowing this stuff.  So getting the rules games will actually be good for her too, because then they'll both have them to explain what they're doing as they work forward in the lists.  The more I can have the tutor (entry level, a college student) do the spelling, the more I can focus on the decoding and the more forward level stuff.  It frees me up to have that ping pong, and it's cover my butt for when real life happens.  Unfortunately, real life happens.

Makes perfect sense.

 

FWIW, some of the games have been great.  Others, not as great.  :)

 

Oh, we actually took some of the games with us on a trip last year and the kids liked doing the card games and the Extra Practice pages for review.  Didn't take long and when we got home no ground had been lost.  In fact, they were remember the terms better than they had before we left on our trip.  

 

That really convinced me that maybe taking a break from the actual lessons to just let things percolate a bit but still review daily in very short stints works better for my kids.  I now have built in break/review weeks.  I look over the level, see where things are sort of linked then take a break at that point to just let it percolate and sink in while we do daily short review with the games and extra practice pages.  Then we move on to new lessons.

[PeterPan]

Displace, that's getting the wheels turning for me.  I think the whole thing of moving up to 3+ syllables was sort of disorganized in my mind.  I hadn't thought through how orderly it COULD be.  And that's a really good point that he only needs cutting till it clicks.  With Barton we were splitting the tiles.  He was sort of impatient with the whole thing.  A good, dramatic CHOP would be more his style.  :D

[Code Lyoko]

Ok, ba da bing!  I missed this and wrote before you posted.  We were doing some of the colored pages initially (during B1, B2) and then we got behind.  When the tutor came in, I think I tried to hand them to her and nothing happened.  We were all dealing with a lot of behaviors, kwim?  Like try teaching a squirrel.  That bites.  That's about how fun it was.  

 

And there's sort of that line where they're nifty and you're like ok I've got SO many pieces at SO many different levels (not all at one level like a traditional student), so what is essential to go back and do and what was just bonus or busywork, kwim?  But you're right, I can bring those out.  It's just a matter of the doing.  And if they're super essential, we can get way more diligent about them.

I don't know if they are essential but I do think they can be helpful for some students.  I don't pile them on on top of a bunch of other stuff, though.  I use them in place of a lesson and for short review.

[PeterPan]

So you're saying we're working through B3 spelling, so do the B3 Spelling Success games, get caught up on the B3 EP pages, and then we're finally getting something consistent and all in one place.... Now THAT would be brilliant.  :D

[PeterPan]

Yup, I like this.  This is a plan I can make happen.  Tidy up our B3 by doing the EP pages, finish out the spelling lessons, play the new games that are coming, then do the same thing, tidying up 4.  This really works.  And I get what you're saying.  I don't need to start B5 while tidying 3.  There's no rush, no fire sale, lol.  It doesn't take long either, now that I have help.  As long as the materials are open and go, he kicks butt and gets a lot done!  Like seriously, that multi-grade, 9 page (plus 4 pages of logic games!) reading packet that I made takes a flat 30 minutes to do.  I kid you not!  When it's open and go, we're golden!

 

So thanks for talking this through.  I like this plan.  

[Code Lyoko]

Yup, I like this.  This is a plan I can make happen.  Tidy up our B3 by doing the EP pages, finish out the spelling lessons, play the new games that are coming, then do the same thing, tidying up 4.  This really works.  And I get what you're saying.  I don't need to start B5 while tidying 3.  There's no rush, no fire sale, lol.  It doesn't take long either, now that I have help.  As long as the materials are open and go, he kicks butt and gets a lot done!  Like seriously, that multi-grade, 9 page (plus 4 pages of logic games!) reading packet that I made takes a flat 30 minutes to do.  I kid you not!  When it's open and go, we're golden!

 

So thanks for talking this through.  I like this plan.  

Sounds like a great plan.  :)  

 

(Tidying up Level 3 helped us finally have more success with Level 4 but honestly I still hate level 4.  There are some parts of it that are brilliantly done, IMHO, but the level as a whole just needs to be reworked and broken down into more manageable pieces as far as I'm concerned.  Level 5 felt like eating cake after eating thorns, LOL.)

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm going through the blue packet from level 3, and I'm finally figuring out what I did!  When we through it the first time, I separated out the reading pages and had him read those.  I gave him his prize for finishing the level and moved on.  At the time we were not attempting to nail the spelling, nor were we doing the handwriting of the words.  Only the reading.  He was young, all over the place with skills and behaviors, and that was just the way to go.  

 

So I'm looking at it now, and I'm seeing that we did *some* of the EP pages.  I see the markings you're describing, and in 3 they aren't very substantial.  I never opened the blue packet for B4, oops.  

 

It looks like I copied and stapled the EP pages for B3 lessons 1-5 into a packet, trying to get the tutor to do them, and she didn't understand them and didn't get them done.  However she does gangbusters on getting him to spell the words with the app.  That she can do!  And what I'm realizing is that we've gone through L5 spelling the words, writing the words, but we SKIPPED having him write the phrases and sentences.  That was in the manual, and we just sorta, oops, double skipped it!  

 

So that's something we can start fixing today, boom.  Our tutor comes on Sundays, believe it or not.  It just happened that way with her schedule. It gives us a couple hours and helps him transition into Monday much better. So if I hurry, I can have these fixes ready.  I think what I need to do is type up the phrases and sentences from the lessons 1-5 of B3 into a packet to print.  That way it can be handed between people and written on for the trials.  That has worked REALLY well for us, marking with trials, and it means anyone working with him can pick it up and keep going.  So if I integrate the words pages from the blue packet with these phrases and sentences, we're golden.  But I'm kind of frustrated that the words and phrases aren't already typed up for me somewhere.  Or are they?  Maybe in the tutor section?  It would save me some time.  I'll have to go look.

[Code Lyoko]

Yes look in the tutor section and the TM main pages. Stuff should be there.

[caedmyn]

I think the discussion has gone past this, but anyway, I had the same thoughts as Laura. I have an advanced vocabulary and very rarely come across a word I don't know unless it's specialized/technical vocabulary (and I read a lot). I generally have picked up the meaning of words from context too. But quite a few times I've been laughed at by DH when I use less common words, because I don't pronounce them correctly because I have never heard them, only read them. Yet I intuitively know the syllable division rules...except you can't predict whether some syllables are open or closed, and that is where I make my pronunciation mistakes. It doesn't affect my reading comprehension whatsoever, or my listening comprehension either for that matter, as I can recognize a word from the context even if it's not pronounced the way I've always pronounced it. Yes it's embarrassing to pronounce a word wrong, but short of listening to a lot of audiobooks to try to actually hear the words, or looking them up in the dictionary, I don't see any way around guessing at open/closed syllables. So to me, it seems like increasing vocabulary so you can flex and successfully decode unfamiliar words might be just as useful at some point as trying to perfect syllable division. I hope that makes sense.

[PeterPan]

Caedmyn, I think that's a REALLY good point and a comfort and a good conclusion even not to be TOO perfectionist about it.  Right now, he just skips big words entirely or guesses, not even giving them a try.  So I think we can do better than that, kwim?  But I think that's a super good point that the open/closed thing makes it so unformulaic that it's not really a solidly dependable skill.  He just needs to get a little more skill than he has.

 

So I got the new dictation pages for the words/phrases/sentences from the "write on paper" components of B3 typed up and stapled for the tutor.  I CANNOT believe I forgot about them.  Shows you how utterly ding-y and overwhelmed I've been!  No matter, that course will be righted.  And really, once I dug in, I realized all the things that have been bothering me (not working on dictation, narration/summarizing, etc. etc.) were IN Barton and I just hadn't milked them for it yet.  In my defense, he wasn't in a position to!  But now he is, and it's something we can change.

 

I'm undecided on narration/summarizing.  Because of his autism and gender and speech problems, it's just really quirky.  I haven't quite figured out what's going on.  When we try to do the IEW fairy tales, I'm getting this hyper-condensed stuff.  Either he's bored or it's his gender or it's hard for him.  I'm asking him to tell me about the books he reads for his Mickey Bucks, and with those I usually get a reply to read it myself (an age and IQ-appropriate sentiment, lol) and eventually some begrudging narrative.

 

I could give up on narrations and just use the Games for Writing book.  I've got it out.  He's professorial when he's in the mood to be.  Sometimes he's more scripting than anything.  He's not really expanding.  

 

The WEIRD thing is that even his OWN writings are odd.  Like he wanted to send valentines to people, so he cut out a pile of hearts and wrote very diligently on them, with significant effort "love."  It was just that, nothing more.  And he wanted me to mail them!  And I'm thinking hello, people will have NO CLUE what you mean.  But in his brain that single word was a complete thought, a sentence, a paragraph even!  

 

So I think I've got some kind of gap there to fill in, and I haven't put my finger on it.  I may need to look at therapy materials, sigh.  I have no clue.  That's the story of my life right now, not having a clue, lol.

[PeterPan]

Yesterday went REALLY well with our Barton stuff.  The ABA tutor had a rough start Sunday, because I just handed her the "write on paper" printouts and said do it.  She went right to phrases, skipping the words and non-sense words level, and she's like wow that was hard for him!  So I went back to the words and non-sense words, and that gave him just the right amount of challenge.  

 

What's interesting is that for him to handle the get it on paper part (clap syllable, finger spell, hold it in your head, write it) any attention to how the letters are formed, whether they should be upper or lower case, where they are on the line, etc., POOF, gone.  Pretty wow.  Like if he's being given the entire word, letter by letter, he can sorta be ok.  If it's a handwriting page and he's copying, it can look ok.  But this was wicked.

 

So I didn't mention handwriting at all.  If the goal is to get the word on paper, the goal is to get it on paper, not to turn it into a handwriting lesson.  And he is diagnosed SLD writing, which I think is the point, that this is crazy hard for him.  I don't consider this a long-term path for how he gets his thoughts out.  What I'd LIKE to do is get him able to work through words and phrases this way, get him able to write a sentence on paper (a single sentence) and then go BACK through the same skills only typing.  Because it seems like typing is going to be the way to get this functional long-term.

 

Also, the OT poo-pooed tracing pages for handwriting, but I'm still wondering about going back and doing that.  I had made some, just to try.  Might be worth it. I don't think we're maxing out what he can do with his brain energy.  He seemed really happy yesterday. In fact, it's just the opposite.  I think stepping things up, bringing in more challenges, doing some of the tech lessons, etc. is making him feel more confident.  He was asking me last night about election stuff.  I like seeing that sprouting.  It's so much better than being lost in behaviors.

 

Oh, so then I came across this nifty TPT file where she has them sorting syllables on holiday words.  Syllables Sort: Thanksgiving Activity - Fall... by Marcia Murphy | Teachers Pay Teachers I was realizing that might be a really cute way to get some small amounts of consistent effort on the multi-syllable word thing.  I just thought it was a cute idea to break apart holiday words.  :D

 

For the Barton "write on paper" stuff I got a composition book with room to draw at the top and had him write words, non-sensense words, one phrase, and then make a sentence using some of the words.  That's actually really hard for him!  So we did that and then he illustrated it.  It was cute and he seemed good with it.  So I think I've got a way to go forward with that portion of Barton consistently now.  And we started the EP pages.  He just did one.  The skills have gotten crunchy, or else he's seeing them in a new light.  I really think that's part of it, that he's just growing and seeing things afresh like the grammar.  

 

So anyways, I thought you'd like to know it's going better, getting on-track. 

[Code Lyoko]

Yeah!!! Great to hear!

[Timberly]

Because of DS12's dysgraphia I let him type instead of write his Barton phrases and sentences. Wow but he was more successful and happier. The stress of using even a dry erase board or pencil during Barton was ugly

 

I got the idea from the Barton tutor forum discussion on working with dysgraphia.

[PeterPan]

Timberly, that's where I want to go!  We just haven't gotten that far.  But I want to get there, and I'm realizing I want to get there sooner, rather than later.  It's on my sort of "one more thing" list, sigh.  We're trying, but for some reason the tutor can't get the set-up to work consistently while she's here.  Sigh.  We don't always win. I think I need him through all the letters with the software before I try having him try to type the Barton, yes?  Was your dc already proficient at typing before he started?

Edited November 8, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Code Lyoko]

Definitely I would wait until he is at least fairly proficient at typing before combining typing with Barton. What are you using for typing?