Struggling student vs. Lazy

[bluedarling]

My 9th grader repeated 8th during her one year of public school.  She was a straight A student (except PE) in public school, and they had her slotted for 3 AP courses in 9th (which she really didn't want.)    At home, everything is "too much" or "too hard".  Notgrass government we've made into a year long course for 1/2 credit (reading took too long and was hard.)  Spanish A we made into a year long course for 1/2 credit (she couldn't memorize that fast.)  And now its language arts.  She is doing Lightning Lit American Mid-Late, and can't keep up with the reading.  She said it just takes her forever to read.   So...now I'm changing from two guides/year to one.  She says its her reading speed, but the school tested her as having very good reading skills.  I'm confused!!   She has always been a weak reader in homeschool, but had no difficulty in public school.  Why is she struggling so much at home?  Is she pulling one over on me, or do homeschool materials just expect more?

[maize]

How much reading did the public school require?

[maize]

Could she do audiobooks for some of her literature? I did that in grad school when I had very limited time--I could listen while doing housework, exercising, etc.

[Arcadia]

How good is her note taking skill? My B&M schools neighbors use cliff notes and teacher supplied notes. So it could be that your child's reading speed is good but note taking and comprehension speed is lower.

[bluedarling]

How much reading did the public school require?

 

Not as much!   I think she brought home 2-3 books to read at home over the course of the year.  She was amazed in hearing classmates read that she read more fluently than they did.   She says she hardly had any reading on a daily basis (maybe 3 pages in history.)

[bluedarling]

Could she do audiobooks for some of her literature? I did that in grad school when I had very limited time--I could listen while doing housework, exercising, etc.

 

We tried that with Uncle Tom's Cabin (which we gave up on and decided to return to later in the year.)  She is not an auditory learner, and says it takes just as long.  She can't concentrate on comprehending orally (difficult for her) and do anything else.

[maize]

I am a good reader but not quick--when I read I say every word in my head; many fluent readers do not. It takes longer if you do.

 

It sounds to me like her reading requirements this year are legitimately higher than what was expected at school, so it does not make sense to compare her achievement at school to her struggles at home.

Edited October 11, 2016 by maize

[bluedarling]

How good is her note taking skill? My B&M schools neighbors use cliff notes and teacher supplied notes. So it could be that your child's reading speed is good but note taking and comprehension speed is lower.

 

I'm not requiring any notetaking.  (She is voluntarily taking notes on her science which is an outside class.  Notetaking doesn't seem to be the issue.)  She says her outside homeschool class is a lot more work than she ever had to do in public school.  (She is complaining that not only does she have to write a report, and plan a Powerpoint presentation, but she has all the usual assignments on top of it.  In public school she'd have had the whole week to do just the report.)

[MysteryJen]

It sounds to me like evaluations might be in order. The reading out fluency is a flag to me. My dd2 has dyslexia and slow processing speed and knowing that helped a lot in figuring out good supports for homeschooling and b&m school.

[bluedarling]

It sounds to me like evaluations might be in order. The reading out fluency is a flag to me. My dd2 has dyslexia and slow processing speed and knowing that helped a lot in figuring out good supports for homeschooling and b&m school.

 

Her brother was dyslexic (visual).  She was always borderline (auditory), but didn't seem to need the same amount of support.  We started Rewards for remediation with her a few years ago, but didn't finish (she hated it and didn't see how it was going to help.)  She struggles with word finding, mixes up syllables in longer words when speaking, etc.  But...she's not "2 years or more behind".  Apparently just enough to make the pace of homeschool materials unbearable.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It sounds like these are classes that you are teaching her?  How much are you interacting with her?  Are you having discussions after each section or chapter?  Comprehension questions?  (I see your curriculum list but they aren't materials that I've used.)  My 9th grader who struggles with reading does best with daily interaction with me on the material.  It helps her to understand the material better and it helps me to see what things she's struggling with.  For example, I know that dd does great on concrete questions on fairly difficult material but has trouble with inference type questions on even easier material.  So we are working on that. 

[MysteryJen]

Her brother was dyslexic (visual).  She was always borderline (auditory), but didn't seem to need the same amount of support.  We started Rewards for remediation with her a few years ago, but didn't finish (she hated it and didn't see how it was going to help.)  She struggles with word finding, mixes up syllables in longer words when speaking, etc.  But...she's not "2 years or more behind".  Apparently just enough to make the pace of homeschool materials unbearable.

If her brother is dyslexic, then she very likely also has something diagnosable going on.  It doesn't matter how far "behind" she is, she is struggling with grade level materials, so she needs some support. 

When my dd2 went in for evaluations, we were sure she was dyslexic even though she was on grade level. Her very slow processing speed came as a complete surprise. Right now, this is the main hurdle in school. With the evaluations, she received a 504 and gets extra time on everything. Homework, in class assignments, quizzes, and tests. Every time. She can get an A with the right supports and without them she is a B/C student. It would not be fair to have her struggle along with the supports she needs. I highly recommend getting evaluations and then figuring out the best ways for her to learn and do the work.

[bluedarling]

It sounds like these are classes that you are teaching her?  How much are you interacting with her?  Are you having discussions after each section or chapter?  Comprehension questions?  (I see your curriculum list but they aren't materials that I've used.)  My 9th grader who struggles with reading does best with daily interaction with me on the material.  It helps her to understand the material better and it helps me to see what things she's struggling with.  For example, I know that dd does great on concrete questions on fairly difficult material but has trouble with inference type questions on even easier material.  So we are working on that. 

 

She is working almost entirely independently (by her choice, though we are attempting to make her as independent as possible since I am planning to return to work very soon.)  I meet with her weekly, and assist when she asks (usually if she doesn't understand the question.)

[MerryAtHope]

My 9th grader repeated 8th during her one year of public school.  She was a straight A student (except PE) in public school, and they had her slotted for 3 AP courses in 9th (which she really didn't want.)    At home, everything is "too much" or "too hard".  Notgrass government we've made into a year long course for 1/2 credit (reading took too long and was hard.)  Spanish A we made into a year long course for 1/2 credit (she couldn't memorize that fast.)  And now its language arts.  She is doing Lightning Lit American Mid-Late, and can't keep up with the reading.  She said it just takes her forever to read.   So...now I'm changing from two guides/year to one.  She says its her reading speed, but the school tested her as having very good reading skills.  I'm confused!!   She has always been a weak reader in homeschool, but had no difficulty in public school.  Why is she struggling so much at home?  Is she pulling one over on me, or do homeschool materials just expect more?

 

 

Not as much!   I think she brought home 2-3 books to read at home over the course of the year.  She was amazed in hearing classmates read that she read more fluently than they did.   She says she hardly had any reading on a daily basis (maybe 3 pages in history.)

 

 

Her brother was dyslexic (visual).  She was always borderline (auditory), but didn't seem to need the same amount of support.  We started Rewards for remediation with her a few years ago, but didn't finish (she hated it and didn't see how it was going to help.)  She struggles with word finding, mixes up syllables in longer words when speaking, etc.  But...she's not "2 years or more behind".  Apparently just enough to make the pace of homeschool materials unbearable.

 

 

She is working almost entirely independently (by her choice, though we are attempting to make her as independent as possible since I am planning to return to work very soon.)  I meet with her weekly, and assist when she asks (usually if she doesn't understand the question.)

 

 

A few notes...

 

1, Government is usually an 11th-12th grade class. The original source documents can be difficult to read (and lengthy). Personally, I make them optional "as time allows" except for the most famous ones (ie, not skipping the constitution, the Magna Carta etc... but some of the lesser-known ones if time is short). Anyway, it's not surprising to me that this would be a challenge, and I would accommodate appropriately. If you want to do it over the year, consider whether other things you might already be doing (like current events, election discussions etc...) can round it out for a full credit.

 

2, obviously the school required many fewer books--so the two are not comparable. If I had to guess, I'd wonder if the books were not as difficult too. That LL pack has very meaty books (Call of the Wild isn't so bad, but the other three are often studied in upper high school years.) And the LL guides are long too. I personally like to mix in more easy reading between meatier books, and I don't require in depth literature guides for every book (we discuss most books but do lit. guides for some). At any rate, I'd guess that here again your expectations are quite a bit higher than what she had at PS.

 

The school probably didn't test her reading speed so much as comprehension.

 

3. "borderline" dyslexics (also try googling "stealth dyslexia") tend to fly under the radar. They may not need help learning to read (or so it seems) because they compensate (for example, many are good at guessing from context and have strong comprehension skills). However, when they get to high school level fiction and non-fiction with more challenging vocabulary, it's much more difficult to do this and absolutely will slow them down and make reading a chore. 

 

She could also have a slower processing speed. 

 

Mixing up syllables when she speaks is a sign of an auditory processing struggle. 

 

All of these are signs of struggle and possible learning disabilities (she's probably 2E--twice exceptional, and compensates for her struggles with giftedness that masks learning disabilities).

 

4. Even for very independent students, for one in only 9th grade and who has struggles keeping up, I would expect daily, rather than weekly meeting times. It's really hard to pinpoint why she's struggling with the reading with a weekly meeting. 

 

For example, it's possible that she struggles with managing her time with being so independent (could be trouble focusing, concentrating, organizing materials, organizing time, or other ADHD related issues or just normal teen issues). I'd expect the reading and notes or anything you require for a 1-credit class to take an hour per day, for example. If she doesn't have that expectation or finds it difficult to focus for an hour, you may have to help her with some of these skills.

 

With daily check-ins and responses from her, you can gauge what's easy and what's hard more directly and concretely (it won't be an "impression" after a week, but a direct response to what it was like trying to read one particular section or chapter, whether it took more or less than an hour, if she didn't finish, how long she tried to read, and so on). 

 

HTH some as you consider how to make things work for her and for your family.

[bluedarling]

A few notes...

 

1, Government is usually an 11th-12th grade class. The original source documents can be difficult to read (and lengthy). Personally, I make them optional "as time allows" except for the most famous ones (ie, not skipping the constitution, the Magna Carta etc... but some of the lesser-known ones if time is short). Anyway, it's not surprising to me that this would be a challenge, and I would accommodate appropriately. If you want to do it over the year, consider whether other things you might already be doing (like current events, election discussions etc...) can round it out for a full credit.

 

2, obviously the school required many fewer books--so the two are not comparable. If I had to guess, I'd wonder if the books were not as difficult too. That LL pack has very meaty books (Call of the Wild isn't so bad, but the other three are often studied in upper high school years.) And the LL guides are long too. I personally like to mix in more easy reading between meatier books, and I don't require in depth literature guides for every book (we discuss most books but do lit. guides for some). At any rate, I'd guess that here again your expectations are quite a bit higher than what she had at PS.

 

The school probably didn't test her reading speed so much as comprehension.

 

3. "borderline" dyslexics (also try googling "stealth dyslexia") tend to fly under the radar. They may not need help learning to read (or so it seems) because they compensate (for example, many are good at guessing from context and have strong comprehension skills). However, when they get to high school level fiction and non-fiction with more challenging vocabulary, it's much more difficult to do this and absolutely will slow them down and make reading a chore. 

 

She could also have a slower processing speed. 

 

Mixing up syllables when she speaks is a sign of an auditory processing struggle. 

 

All of these are signs of struggle and possible learning disabilities (she's probably 2E--twice exceptional, and compensates for her struggles with giftedness that masks learning disabilities).

 

4. Even for very independent students, for one in only 9th grade and who has struggles keeping up, I would expect daily, rather than weekly meeting times. It's really hard to pinpoint why she's struggling with the reading with a weekly meeting. 

 

For example, it's possible that she struggles with managing her time with being so independent (could be trouble focusing, concentrating, organizing materials, organizing time, or other ADHD related issues or just normal teen issues). I'd expect the reading and notes or anything you require for a 1-credit class to take an hour per day, for example. If she doesn't have that expectation or finds it difficult to focus for an hour, you may have to help her with some of these skills.

 

With daily check-ins and responses from her, you can gauge what's easy and what's hard more directly and concretely (it won't be an "impression" after a week, but a direct response to what it was like trying to read one particular section or chapter, whether it took more or less than an hour, if she didn't finish, how long she tried to read, and so on). 

 

HTH some as you consider how to make things work for her and for your family.

 

Thank you so much!  This is very helpful.  We will cut out some of the difficult government reading, and add in election/current event activities.  She had actually asked for daily meetings to help her keep on task...she says she has no problem concentrating for an hour, but does have issues concentrating for 5 hours...the school day.  We haven't managed to work in daily meetings yet, but we'll continue to work on this.   Should I consider switching LA curriculum, if LL is rather difficult?  She says she is fine with Huck Finn at half pace....though she is dreading returning to Uncle Tom's Cabin.  Is there something we should do to work on reading speed?

 

The chances of her being twice exceptional are high...both older brothers are twice exceptional (ASD & ADHD.)  Her younger sibling is gifted.  She received services for expressive language as a preschooler (didn't speak until 3.5 years old.)  However, as always, her struggles are just mild enough to keep us from seeking treatment.  We had her tested by an audiologist for APD.  She didn't have that, and they referred to an educational evaluation that never happened.  Her speech issues are becoming less noticeable fortunately, as my attempts to find an SLP that would work with an older child were futile. 

 

[MerryAtHope]

Maybe just have her do part of the LL guide (use it for Huck Finn and maybe one other book), and fill in with easier reading. You could look at the Notgrass selections, or SL 100 (I actually pulled from both lists when my kids did US history). See what looks good to her and just encouraging reading for a certain amount of time each day. I usually discuss lit at least a couple of times in the week, starting casually--"What's happening in your book now?" and then discussing points of interest from there. 

 

We usually do our daily meeting time for about 30-45 minutes in the morning--sometimes first thing, sometimes my dd does a subject or two first and then we do it. (When both of mine were homeschooling, I would meet with one while the other worked and then switch. I work from home as well, so then I would work once I'd checked everything and met with both of them.) Maybe there's a consistent time that could work--maybe right after breakfast or lunch, or the night before?

[Pegasus]

Why not pick and choose the books from Lightning Lit that you want her to actually read the full book and then use Spark Notes or equivalent and let her just read the chapter summaries.  This way, she becomes familiar with the plot,characters, setting, etc. and can still gain something from the LL lessons related to that book.

 

We did this for Moby Dick and my DDs are eternally grateful.

 

I may be totally off-base, but could the issue be less with reading speed and more with getting distracted when she should be reading?  We were starting to work towards independence in ninth but it sounds like she maybe has more than she can handle at this point.

[Guest]

I just wanted to chime in on the government reading and agree with MerryAtHope. The source docs in the Notgrass books are tough at a 9th grade level imo. We tried that one over the summer and my 9th grader struggled immensely. We ended up shelving it for now and went back to our normal history rotation. My dd is an incredibly fast reader, and at a high comprehension level and she still struggled with Notgrass government, so it may be the contents as much as anything for your dd.

[ElizabethB]

Many of my remedial students have improved their reading speed after I added nonsense words and syllables to my program. I am working on a beta DVD of the program, but the transcript is complete, you can teach it from the links.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

You are retraining the brain, so you slow down at first as you learn a new way to read based on syllables and nomsense words, but then speed up faster than original speeds once the process is automated. The fastest progress is made if you work quickly through it and do no outside reading and extra nonsense words until your MWIA slowdown is 10% or less, it usually takes a few months but if you did it daily, it could go faster, I usually work with my students once or twice a week. (Ten hours to complete basics, then a bit more time solidifying and retraining, the second part varies by student.)

 

The second half includes a level of reading and word roots that could be lower level 9th grade language arts work, so could replace her LA once you got to that point for the second week, it would take two weeks if you did a lesson a day M - F.

 

Use the blend phonics nonsense word document instead of the regular blend phonics and the nonsense word syllable division version, although if she is reading below grade level, I would do both the nonsense word and regular syllable division documents.

 

The links include a silent reading speed test and a reading grade level test.

 

If you went through it faster doing 2 lessons a day, you would definately have to continue with extra nonsense words daily for a while, and even at two weeks will probably need to. A nonsense word document is linked, if you use it and run out, I have more but not linked yet.

 

I also do not yet have instructions for my new MWIA version, but it is similar to the MWIA linked in my reading test page. This one is faster to give and has a few different versions so you can track progress. Do not give answers and then you can reuse the reading grade level test.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/readinggradeleve.html

 

I would try to schedule a visit or two with a good private speech therapist to give you ideas, maybe post on the learning challenges board about how to find a good one in the area you need and the types of books and exercises you can do on your own while waiting. You might also want to do a hearing screening.

 

You can also compare and contrast spanish syllables, it will help both her understanding of English and Spanish.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/519829-syllabic-phonics-in-multiple-languages/?hl=%2Bsyllables&do=findComment&comment=6378798

Edited October 15, 2016 by ElizabethB