Teaching Degree: Math or Science?

[goldberry]

DD is a total math/science nerd, and has been wavering between a career in healthcare or a career in teaching. To be honest, I have been encouraging healthcare, because of better financial possibilities.  She has done some volunteering at a clinic and a couple of other healthcare environments.  Then before the end of the school year, she volunteered at the local high school in some math and science classes.  She came home bouncing. Okay, teaching it is.

 

Her plan is to get a degree in math or science and a secondary education certification.  She wants to teach high school level.  We also talked about the importance of not acquiring a lot of debt in college, since she won't be making a very high starting salary.  She does realize that she will likely eventually end up getting her masters, but she has never thought she could make it straight through a masters to start out with.  

 

Is there any advantage to pursuing one over the other, math or science?  Is either of those going to be more marketable, or give more options?  

 

[kiana]

One of the nice things about pursuing physical science is that generally the degree requires enough math that you can get a math endorsement without a huge number of extra classes. At our college it gets you halfway there. You can frequently add an endorsement after you graduate and it does increase marketability to be able to be the physics/chemistry instructor who also has a class of algebra 1, because it increases flexibility for the school. It's a sort of hybrid degree that prepares one to teach high school physics, chemistry, and physical science.

[Caroline]

I did secondary math as a second career. My degrees are in materials science and engineering, so I could teach chemistry, physics, or math with the credits I have. I chose math because you can teach it with a chalkboard and a piece of chalk. To teach science well, I would want all sorts of equipment for labs. Funding was dropping at the time I got certified.

 

In Georgia, once you are certified for one secondary subject, you just need to take the certification test in any other secondary subject to get certified. So I can get certified in English just by passing the certification test.

[goldberry]

That's the thing also, DD is not sure where she plans to be living.  That was one reason against the teaching career, was how difficult it might be to move or get certified in a different state.

[goldberry]

Also, she thought about a double major in math and a science, but then aren't you already adding in a lot of extra hours for the teaching certification?  That would be a lot to try to do a double major PLUS the teaching part.  Or am I wrong?

[LisaKinVA]

DD is currently planning to pursue a dual degree in Math and Biological Science (with teaching credential), in VA for additional science credentials, she needs a minimum of 15 hours of Physics, and 15 hours of Chemistry to be able to teach any HS math, bio, physics or chemistry class.   She should arrive with 8 hours of both Chem and Physics already.  She will need to pass a test to teach German.

 

Look at your state certification requirements (VAs are available on-line) to see what's what.  Also look for schools that offer MA in education -- as often times they can start their MA program as an undergrad.

 

Starting salary in VA for a teacher with an MA is in the mid-40's-ish.  Doesn't go up much from there quickly, but the number of jobs available in math, science and foreign language are huge.  Multiple specialties is a big plus for getting hired and keeping your job.  Plus, don't rule out teaching online ;)

[LisaKinVA]

That's the thing also, DD is not sure where she plans to be living.  That was one reason against the teaching career, was how difficult it might be to move or get certified in a different state.

 

One word.  Reciprocity.  Many states have reciprocity for the teaching certificate.  Check out where she plans to attend college, and the state's reciprocity agreements.  I know math, science and foreign language instructors are in short supply (considered high need -- in many states).

 

Also, she thought about a double major in math and a science, but then aren't you already adding in a lot of extra hours for the teaching certification?  That would be a lot to try to do a double major PLUS the teaching part.  Or am I wrong?

 

Yes.  It is a lot of work to double major with a teaching certificate.  The teaching cert is 35 hours of work (including the student teaching), and each major is also 35-40 hours of work.  This is a situation where CLEP, AP, and DE can really move that ball forward.

 

Things she should consider is a school that allows you to use the same gen-ed requirements for both degrees, or possibly required courses from one major as gen electives or the other.  Also consider asking about taking courses at the local CC during the summer, and having those transfer in (not usually for degree requirements, but undergrad or electives).

 

In DD's case, the school she is looking intently at, she could have all of her undergrad general work completed before stepping foot in the school.  Judicious use of AP and CLEP would eliminate some major courses as well (not many, just Calculus 1 & 2, University Physics, and Chemistry).  This would mean she would only have roughly 110-120 hours to do her double major and the teaching cert (very do-able), continue self-study with German, get her extra hours in Chem and Physics.  They also offer some classes (in education, mostly) during winter break, spring break, and summer break -- so she could take some of those during other parts of the year as well.  

 

The key to working in a double major (or multiple) is to find out ahead of time what can be done/tested out of, and stay on top of course offerings (some things are only offered alternate years, or one semester of alternate years) each semester -- with a view to the end goal.  One does not need to attend a top-tier university to get a teaching degree -- but you do want one with an excellent reputation and a masters program, if you can.  

[gardenmom5]

if she does a bachelor in chemistry - she will also have the ability to teach math - and even physics.  (chemistry requires calculus based physics)  so, many more options.

 

2dd has a ba in chem with a minor in bio.  (eta. before grad school - she tutored for an agency (which required proficiency) in physics and calculus as well as chem and bio.)

Edited June 2, 2016 by gardenmom5

[goldberry]

So would it be a hindrance to attend college out of state then?  IE, if she was looking at a college in Missouri or somewhere because it was a good school and offered good financial aid,  but that state is totally unrelated to us and it is unlikely she would ever live there, would that be a mistake if she was pursuing teaching?

[QueenCat]

So would it be a hindrance to attend college out of state then?  IE, if she was looking at a college in Missouri or somewhere because it was a good school and offered good financial aid,  but that state is totally unrelated to us and it is unlikely she would ever live there, would that be a mistake if she was pursuing teaching?

 

I really wouldn't worry about that. Who knows where she'll live later. She may meet the partner of her dreams and live in places totally unexpected and no where that she is considering right now.

[LisaKinVA]

So would it be a hindrance to attend college out of state then?  IE, if she was looking at a college in Missouri or somewhere because it was a good school and offered good financial aid,  but that state is totally unrelated to us and it is unlikely she would ever live there, would that be a mistake if she was pursuing teaching?

 

It totally depends on the reciprocity for the teaching certificate and the requirements to get one in say, your home state.  Here is a link to a chart with state-by-state reciprocity for your reference.

 

Affordability is always a factor.  

[Caroline]

It totally depends on the reciprocity for the teaching certificate and the requirements to get one in say, your home state. Here is a link to a chart with state-by-state reciprocity for your reference.

 

Affordability is always a factor.

Thanks for that chart.

[gardenmom5]

So would it be a hindrance to attend college out of state then?  IE, if she was looking at a college in Missouri or somewhere because it was a good school and offered good financial aid,  but that state is totally unrelated to us and it is unlikely she would ever live there, would that be a mistake if she was pursuing teaching?

 

It shouldnt' be.   dd considered teaching at one point while she was in school in NY - we live in WA.

Edited June 2, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

I have a friend who was heavy into computers and certified in math.  after taking a break for kids - she went back as a spanish teacher (she's fluent. she also had one of the heaviest class loads in the entire school.) and got her masters.   she's since switched back to math.  

[LisaKinVA]

if she does a bachelor in chemistry - she will also have the ability to teach math - and even physics.  (chemistry requires calculus based physics)  so, many more options.

 

2dd has a ba in chem with a minor in bio.  (eta. before grad school - she tutored for an agency (which required proficiency) in physics and calculus as well as chem and bio.)

 

This actually varies depending upon the state guidelines.  That's not how it would work in VA (for example).  In VA, she'd be granted reciprocity for the original teaching degree/major area, but would have to have at least 15 hours of work in Physics to get the additional endorsement (possibly a test).  To get math, she'd have to either major in math or take 36 credit hours from the various disciplines.  I believe it's easier to get Algebra 1 (as it's own endorsement, I think it's just pass a test).  There may be a PRAXIS test available, which might be an option, too -- but it's not true that a BA in Chem grants you carte blanche to teach Physics and math (at least not on a national level).

[LisaKinVA]

Thanks for that chart.

 

You're welcome.  I should add, there may be some hoops to jump through -- but in most cases, with reciprocity they aren't bad or difficult (not like practicing law, anyhow).

[goldberry]

So I'm noticing that our state has its own testing (PLACE) rather than Praxis, which it seems most other states use.  Would it be beneficial for her to do Praxis testing in addition to our own state testing if she is considering a move, or do you just wait until you actually move?  If that is several years later, is it harder to pass then?

[LisaKinVA]

So I'm noticing that our state has its own testing (PLACE) rather than Praxis, which it seems most other states use. Would it be beneficial for her to do Praxis testing in addition to our own state testing if she is considering a move, or do you just wait until you actually move? If that is several years later, is it harder to pass then?

If she goes to school in MO, she will get her license in MO. If they use Praxis (most states do), she should be fine. The only hitch might be a passing score can differ from state to state. It looks like she would have to take the PLACE tests get her license in your home state, but would get a provisional license to begin with. I have no idea how hard they would be to pass later, but I do know there are practice tests, study guides, and that you can take them again and again.

 

I honestly wouldn't worry too much about what happens beyond the initial license. It's too difficult to try to prepare for every possible scenario. Most states give some time to check off required testing, while allowing you to teach in the meantime.

So, she could have time to study and prepare.

[goldberry]

Thanks for the input, it seems complicated, but maybe it's not as convoluted as it seems.

[goldberry]

Still not sure about math or science though!  

[LisaKinVA]

Still not sure about math or science though!

Do some online job searches in your state, Missouri, maybe a couple of others. Look at what the requirements are for licensure and additional endorsements in your state and MO. Get an idea of how difficult it would be to finish the endorsements after graduation.

 

If my DD has to choose, I'd have her go with Math (because there are usually more opportunities in math), and take as many Bio major courses as she could toward a Bio major (at her college, she's required to take 12 hours of Chem and 8 hours of University Physics as part of the bio major). She could continue earning toward that major after she graduated, and once she did, she would only need 1 more course in Chem and 2-3 more in Physics to finish those endorsements as well.

[kiana]

She can easily do her freshman year as a science education major while leaving the option open to switch to math by taking calculus as a freshman. This will allow her to find out more about the job market and also about what college-level classes in those areas are like.

 

One thing that really trips up a lot of people who want to do math education is the proof-based classes (which are required for a math ed degree in nearly every state). I refer especially to analysis/advanced calculus and modern/abstract algebra. Students who are considering math education (or any math major) should try to take introduction to proofs (schools call this different things) as early in their career as they feasibly can, because if they loathe this class with every innermost fiber of their being, that would indicate they should switch majors.

 

A high school student who is thinking of math ought to try to get some exposure to proofs if their program doesn't have a lot of it.

[LucyStoner]

Also, check the state. Here, teachers increasingly have master's degrees and the only exceptions are older experienced teachers or someone with a high demand subject experience that they can't get a certificated teacher for first.

[AngieW in Texas]

My degrees are in physics and all physics majors automatically had math minors. If I had it to do all over again, I would have double-majored in math and physics.

 

I am certified to teach secondary math and secondary science. I'm currently teaching science. I'm also certified in special education and started off with SpEd. During my job hunt, I applied for gen ed and SpEd in both math and science.  I have heard that it is very hard to find people who are certified in both secondary science and SpEd. I happen to live in a very desirable district, so my job hunt was long and hard despite all my certifications.

 

I just finished my 2nd year of teaching.

[goldberry]

Also, check the state. Here, teachers increasingly have master's degrees and the only exceptions are older experienced teachers or someone with a high demand subject experience that they can't get a certificated teacher for first.

 

In our state and the two other states that are living possibilities, bachelors only can still find a job pretty easily.  I do know it's different in some states.  In my home state, it is most common to start with a bachelors, and get a masters along the way, sometimes with aid from the school district.