Rental property question

[PeachyDoodle]

I'm going to try to ask this question without giving too many details, so hopefully it makes sense.

 

Legally, who has the right to use of the outdoor parts of a rental property -- the landlord, or the renter?

 

For example, can the landlord allow a non-paying third party to drive/park in the driveway and yard of the property, thus restricting access for the paying renter? Or does the rent include use of both outdoor and indoor facilities included in the property?

[TranquilMind]

I'm going to try to ask this question without giving too many details, so hopefully it makes sense.

 

Legally, who has the right to use of the outdoor parts of a rental property -- the landlord, or the renter?

 

For example, can the landlord allow a non-paying third party to drive/park in the driveway and yard of the property, thus restricting access for the paying renter? Or does the rent include use of both outdoor and indoor facilities included in the property?

What does the Lease say? 

 

The Lease (which needs to be drafted by a real estate attorney, and not just some form) should clearly delineate who has use of what areas. 

 

Absent clarification, the Lease is construed AGAINST the drafter (which would be the landlord), so if it is silent, a judge may determine that the Landlord has  leased the entire premises without limitation to the tenant.  So that would be a no, the landlord can't allow parking on premises he has leased in full to another. 

 

Try to work it out.  You really don't want to go to court, regardless of which party you happen to be. 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by TranquilMind

[Jyhwkmama]

It depends on what is in the rental agreement/lease.

[PeachyDoodle]

There is no lease.

 

There will also be no going to court, as this is a family situation and not worth completely destroying the relationships (even if all the parties involved will probably be happy to keep things to small talk at Christmas when it's over).

 

I was just curious.

[TranquilMind]

There is no lease.

 

There will also be no going to court, as this is a family situation and not worth completely destroying the relationships (even if all the parties involved will probably be happy to keep things to small talk at Christmas when it's over).

 

I was just curious.

 

Well, just tell whomever is parking on the lawn and blocking the tenant to knock it off.  (If you are the Landlord). 

[PeachyDoodle]

Well, just tell whomever is parking on the lawn and blocking the tenant to knock it off.  (If you are the Landlord). 

 

Unfortunately, I'm not.

 

But I did anyway. He's insisting it's not possible. I'm insisting he needs to find an alternative.

 

I prefer not to involve the landlords, but I intend to win. :D

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Do the landlords also live on or adjacent to the property?

 

[PeachyDoodle]

Do the landlords also live on or adjacent to the property?

 

One of the landlords lives adjacent. The other does not.

[Ravin]

There is no lease.

 

There will also be no going to court, as this is a family situation and not worth completely destroying the relationships (even if all the parties involved will probably be happy to keep things to small talk at Christmas when it's over).

 

I was just curious.

 

There is always a lease. A contract can be oral, and terms that haven't been clearly communicated may be implied. Realistically, though, if it's a family situation, that's going to be worked out in the court of family opinion, then fairness is worth fighting for.

[PeachyDoodle]

There is always a lease. A contract can be oral, and terms that haven't been clearly communicated may be implied. Realistically, though, if it's a family situation, that's going to be worked out in the court of family opinion, then fairness is worth fighting for.

 

Fair enough. :D

 

The original agreement was struck 8+ years ago. Use of the yard/driveway by the third party were not mentioned at that time. It never came up until a few months ago. Now third party seems to believe they are entitled to use it.

 

[Scarlett]

Fair enough. :D

 

The original agreement was struck 8+ years ago. Use of the yard/driveway by the third party were not mentioned at that time. It never came up until a few months ago. Now third party seems to believe they are entitled to use it.

You should definitely win. I am on your side. :)

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I would think that after 8 years, you would be grandfathered into an arrangement that didn't include 3rd parties parking in the driveway/yard, unless that third party has moved into the home of the landlord who lives adjacent, and has express permission from the landlord.  That complicates things.  3rd party should pay part of your rent.

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Suzanne in ABQ

[Jyhwkmama]

If I were you, I would move.

 

Business and family can get ugly quickly.

[PeachyDoodle]

I would think that after 8 years, you would be grandfathered into an arrangement that didn't include 3rd parties parking in the driveway/yard, unless that third party has moved into the home of the landlord who lives adjacent, and has express permission from the landlord.  That complicates things.  3rd party should pay part of your rent.

 

Third party is the adult child of the landlord, who has always lived in the property adjacent (with the landlord).

 

OTOH, I am the adult child of the OTHER landlord, so this only really complicates things.

 

Third party has NEVER paid rent to anyone.

 

And now I'm giving away the details I originally tried to keep out. Oh well.

[PeachyDoodle]

If I were you, I would move.

 

Business and family can get ugly quickly.

 

So we've discovered. :(

 

We are moving ASAP. Unfortunately, that means a few more months. It can't be helped.

[ashfern]

Since it's family, I'd ask them to park so that they don't block your access to the driveway. Maybe have a set place where they can be.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Third party is the adult child of the landlord, who has always lived in the property adjacent (with the landlord).

 

OTOH, I am the adult child of the OTHER landlord, so this only really complicates things.

 

Third party has NEVER paid rent to anyone.

 

And now I'm giving away the details I originally tried to keep out. Oh well.

 

This reminds me of the fable about the man with the camel who slowly, but methodically, took over his tent.  It appears that Third Party wants your house.  He'll probably end up with it when you move out.  He may even end up paying little or no rent.  Your parent (the other landlord) should know about this.  And, you should probably look for a different place to live.  8 years is long enough in some circumstances.

[PeachyDoodle]

This reminds me of the fable about the man with the camel who slowly, but methodically, took over his tent.  It appears that Third Party wants your house.  He'll probably end up with it when you move out.  He may even end up paying little or no rent.  Your parent (the other landlord) should know about this.  And, you should probably look for a different place to live.  8 years is long enough in some circumstances.

 

Are you psychic? LOL

 

Third party DEFINITELY wants this house. Everybody knows it. He will buy it after we leave. It's a done deal. My priority is making sure my side of the family gets what's coming to us. Third party will undoubtedly receive his side's share free and clear. Not much I can do about that.

 

Eight years is way beyond long enough. Believe me. As I said, we are moving ASAP, but everyone has to endure for a few more months. There's just no way around it.

 

That said, the driveway and yard have been unencumbered so far today. We'll see if this lasts.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think that since you are moving soon, I would be completely utilitarian rather than trying to make it a matter of principle.

 

It sounds like up until now, you've had use of the driveway for your car, so I would say that the principle would be that it has to stay available.  If he was using it but not preventing your use that would be one thing, but suddenly taking away your parking is crazy.

 

But for me, under these circumstances, I would think about whether I in fact needed the space until I moved, or if I could make do without much fuss.  I would not spend money or park a block away, I might be willing to park across the street or a house or two down.

 

If that is the only place to park, I would make it very clear that he cannot block our space.

[creekland]

Having read the whole thing, I'd try diffusing this all with humor.

 

"Hey Joey!  We all know you're getting this house in another year when we move.  What're you trying to do, pitch a tent in our yard in the meantime waiting for us to leave?   :lol: I mean, we love you and all, but this could get a little too cozy when we have to step/drive over you to get to our car."

 

Humor can put an end to so many things as it lets people "see" what's going on in a non-threatening or confrontational way.  I just used it about an hour ago to diffuse a bully situation (getting the bully to stop his shenanigans).  Chances are he won't do it again too (in my case anyway).  The young lad getting bullied was rather pleased at the result.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Are you psychic? LOL

 

Third party DEFINITELY wants this house. Everybody knows it. He will buy it after we leave. It's a done deal. My priority is making sure my side of the family gets what's coming to us. Third party will undoubtedly receive his side's share free and clear. Not much I can do about that.

 

Eight years is way beyond long enough. Believe me. As I said, we are moving ASAP, but everyone has to endure for a few more months. There's just no way around it.

 

That said, the driveway and yard have been unencumbered so far today. We'll see if this lasts.

 

 

 

Psychic?  No.  I've just been around the block a few times.

 

Sounds like you have a plan.  Hopefully, you and Third Party will be able to come to an agreeable compromise until things sort out once and for all.

[Callie]

Sounds like he is ready for you to be gone and so he thinks if he is an ass you'll leave quicker and he can get his (almost) free house.  And I bet his parent is giving him the o.k.  Especially if the two owners are divorced.

[Callie]

Sounds like he is ready for you to be gone and so he thinks if he is an ass you'll leave quicker and he can get his (almost) free house.  And I bet his parent is giving him the o.k.  Especially if the two owners are divorced.

If I remember correctly you have stayed way longer than anyone intended.  If so I doubly bet that is what is going on.

[3 ladybugs]

Park in the street?

 

We have had issues in our house where the renter next door parked in such a way that we could not get access to our driveway. For that we can call the police. I dealt with it and they moved away and before the next tenant could move in, I told the landlord of this problem. It is no longer a problem now (yes the house is rented). 

 

In your situation I would either park in the street or park in a way to block the person from blocking you in. With children in the house you should have the ability to flee should your child get injured or something. To me it is a safety issue. 

 

Good luck!

[PeachyDoodle]

It's actually not a parking issue, although we are rural, so parking on the street isn't really an option.

 

The problem is that he has suddenly decided not to use his own driveway for leaving and entering his property. Instead, he drives through our yard and out our driveway. And he's apparently told his employees and subcontractors to do the same thing. He has a landscaping company based from his home that uses a ton of trucks/trailers/heavy machinery, so these things are going through our yard and drive all day every day. (He works seven days a week.) 

 

I can no longer send my 5-year-old outside to play on his own because I never know when a dump truck or dually with a 20' trailer will come roaring across our property. Because of the layout of our lot, the only real place to play is in the front.

 

{Vent coming...}

 

He, like his mother who is one of the landlords (the other is my dad -- they are brother and sister), is a narcissist who manipulates with the best of them and thinks the whole world revolves around him. He is 35 years old and has lived with his parents his entire life. He married last year and moved his new wife in with his parents, who added a bonus room over their garage to expand the second floor for them (we call it the honeymoon suite behind their backs). Now they are expecting a baby. So yes, he's anxious to get his almost-free house.

 

And yes, we have been here longer than we'd hoped to be. A lot of things happened that we weren't prepared for (dh getting laid off twice, ds in the NICU racking up huge medical bills, the land we were supposed to build on failing to obtain approval from the county, lack of affordable lots/homes for sale in the area we need to buy in). BUT, there was never a time frame put on our living here. We moved here because it was a good situation for us, but ALSO because this house was sitting empty after my grandmother died and someone needed to keep it up. No one wanted to sell it outside the family (I know now that this wasn't sentimentality on the part of my aunt next door, but her holding it open for her son in the future). We were the ONLY members of the family willing to take it on. In fact, it was offered to him first, and he refused it because he didn't want to pay the paltry rent. He preferred living with Mommy and Daddy scot-free.

 

Now that his situation has changed, and he does want the house, he is ticked that he's having to wait. But we are building, and our new house won't be ready for some months, probably after the first of next year. We are having to borrow a not-insubstantial amount of money from my parents even to make that happen, but my dad has offered it just to shut his stupid sister up.

 

/vent

[Ravin]

Yeah, sounds like a hostile takeover, he probably wants to live in your house all right.

 

It's definitely not something I would want to try and enforce in court. If you had the resources, you could counter his hostile move with one of your own and put in a gate with a lock, if you had the support of one of the landlords. But that would just escalate things. Sounds like your new house can't be ready soon enough!

[PeachyDoodle]

Yeah, sounds like a hostile takeover, he probably wants to live in your house all right.

 

It's definitely not something I would want to try and enforce in court. If you had the resources, you could counter his hostile move with one of your own and put in a gate with a lock, if you had the support of one of the landlords. But that would just escalate things. Sounds like your new house can't be ready soon enough!

 

Not going to court, although at this point if I thought I could stick it to them, I probably would, tbh. It's a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back scenario -- there have been SO MANY other things as well.

 

But this has been stressful enough on my dad, and I think he would keel over if I tried to take it to court, more from the embarrassment of having the family drama play out in public than anything. And besides, our house would probably be finished before we could resolve it anyway.

 

We do have the gate in our back pocket, though. It's not the route I want to take, but I will if I have to. He stayed out of the yard yesterday, and it's raining today (so no work). Hopefully he's gotten the message. Which just means we'll move on to some other equally obnoxious behavior in a few days or weeks...

 

I can't get out of here fast enough.

 

[creekland]

In that situation, I might accidentally drop quite a few nails in the area where the trucks cut across.  Not enough to be seen, but enough to be a "problem." 

 

You said your kids can't play there anyway...

 

Or if I had some "toys" I was willing to sacrifice, they might always end up in that area creating an obstacle course.  Bonus points for the obstacles sending the vehicles over the nails.

 

But I can be like that with idiots...