Project Lead the Way: Accepted but should she? (x-posted)

[sewpeaceful]

It was suggested I post this on the high school board.

 

Our town is kicking off Project Lead the Way (PLTW), the pre-engineering program that *seems* to becoming the gold star standard for students applying to engineering schools or STEM degree programs.  Our 8th grader, who has wanted to be a "science girl engineer" since she was 4 and homeschooled since Pre-K, applied and was one of the 15 students accepted.  I can't find one bad thing about this program other than it requires her to attend public school to participate in the program.  The school has APs and a robotics team but also requires *2* years of PE to spite the state only requiring 1 credit, won't recognize her year of high school french because they don't have french (only Spanish and Italian) requiring her to start her foreign language requirements over (STEM colleges only want 2 years but they want 2 years of the same language), and we were creatively meeting the state's fine arts requirements but she would have to meet it in the classroom.  Let's add the health requirement we were meeting in other ways and we are at 4.5 credits just in ridiculous credits.  

 

Does anyone know enough about PLTW to help us decide if the program is worth giving up the endless benefits of homeschooling to attend public high school to participate in this program?  

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Laurie Beth

[maize]

You could enroll her for 9th grade and decide from there whether it is a good fit for her.

I would not look so much at the reputation of the program as at whether it meets the needs of your student. She can homeschool high school and study engineering in college without this program, it sounds like something only a tiny minority of future engineers will have been involved in and not likely a make or break experience for her future aspirations. If the opportunities NOW are a good fit for her--teachers, mentors, peer group, etc.--and outweigh the freedom of homeschooling, then go for it.

Edited April 16, 2016 by maize

[Lori D.]

As you try and decide, check out what other opportunities you might have available to you while homeschooling high school, and then weigh the pros and cons. Below are some ideas. BEST of luck in deciding! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Online class options (many of these are free)

 

Computer Programming

Learn to Code at School or Home

Code.org

Computer Science Before College (links to free courses)

10 Sources for Free Computer Programming Courses Online

 

Computer Science:

Coursera

 

Engineering: 

MIT Open CourseWare Materials

Stanford Science Outreach: online classes for high school students

big list of open source courses

Brown University: Exploring Engineering

 

STEM:

MIT Highlights for High School

NEA: 10 Best STEM Resources -- not classes, but various support materials and providers

 

AP Classes/Prep:

edX (free)

Internet Archive (free)

College Board: big list of AP online course providers

Pennsylvania Homeschoolers AP Online Classes

 

School or Community

- after school club in Engineering, Robotics, or other STEM area

- local Lego FIRST Robotics team

- ask to be a high school intern with local university engineering club

- local Electronics group

 

Summer Camps/Programs

- Robotics and Electrical Engineering with Arduino (Digital Media Academy) -- 1 week summer camp

- Robotics Camps and Courses for Kids and Teens

- NASA Robotics Summer Camps

- STEM programs for high school students

- Engineering summer camps

- Engineering summer programs for teens

 

Dual Enrollment

Courses that count for both high school and college credit at your local community college or university in Math or Science, but also possibly Computer Science, Computer Programming, CAD and Electronics, Engineering, etc.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Lori D.

[JudoMom]

You would have to look at the curriculum objectives and see if they are of interest and are the best use of time for your child. In my area, its pitched as a program for students who have an interest, but havent pursued that interest. Computer program for ex is python.there is nothing for students who did python in elementary or middle and want to expand their knowledge of java or c++ . The student here that would take this type of class would be someone who the district views at risk for dropping out, or they are interested in engineering but do not have the college prep coursework or the opportunity to do hands on at home. In other words, the students who work on cars and small engimes, or spend their saturday wiring houses with a relative and are interested in engineering wont be in the class...they are beyond the scope and the guidance counselor will suggest college prep math and science and an ec that allows them to work with experts...robotics team, science club, etc.

 

Does one need this type of class? Maybe, but with so many ecs that were more advanced, it wasnt worth 3 class periods daily for our local option. My engineering kid took math and science instead. His friends that went into engineering that werent taking fine arts electives took business courses as their electives and everyone used the internet or local connections to learn to program.community ecs introduced them to problem solving, hands on, design etc.

Now see, that's interesting. I answered in the other thread, but the engineering classes that are offered for our PLTW courses are the same courses offered at the local university (which has a respected engineering program) for freshman engineering students.

[Bluegoat]

 

It was suggested I post this on the high school board.

 

Our town is kicking off Project Lead the Way (PLTW), the pre-engineering program that *seems* to becoming the gold star standard for students applying to engineering schools or STEM degree programs.  Our 8th grader, who has wanted to be a "science girl engineer" since she was 4 and homeschooled since Pre-K, applied and was one of the 15 students accepted.  I can't find one bad thing about this program other than it requires her to attend public school to participate in the program.  The school has APs and a robotics team but also requires *2* years of PE to spite the state only requiring 1 credit, won't recognize her year of high school french because they don't have french (only Spanish and Italian) requiring her to start her foreign language requirements over (STEM colleges only want 2 years but they want 2 years of the same language), and we were creatively meeting the state's fine arts requirements but she would have to meet it in the classroom.  Let's add the health requirement we were meeting in other ways and we are at 4.5 credits just in ridiculous credits.  

 

Does anyone know enough about PLTW to help us decide if the program is worth giving up the endless benefits of homeschooling to attend public high school to participate in this program?  

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Laurie Beth

 

 

 

I am not sure those things strike me as ridiculous credits?

 

I can't see that it would be bad for her to do two years of PE, or that two years of Spanish or Italian would be a bad thing - all of those seem, on their own, to be objectively fine to me.

 

It would be too bad not to have a chance to do more French if she would really like to learn it.

 

The health and art might be better or worse, it seems hard to say.  But I would base that on how they compare to what she would be doing outside of school, not on whether they count as credits or not.  If it is a good art class, that seems like a good use of time.

[abcmommy]

My son is doing the bio med track and these classes have been EXCELLENT.  Much more rigorous AND engaging than others.  I would say yes yes yes based on my son's experiences!

[sewpeaceful]

BlueGoat, I apologize.  You are right in that they aren't ridiculous credits.  But when she is swimming 12 hours a week on the swim team, playing on a girls golf team, rowing, and hiking, the credits seem redundant to me (assuming the point is to teach physical fitness), preventing her from taking 2 credits classes that intrigue her.  Yes, she would love to continue French so that is a true loss for her.  She would be completing health with us but our biology course covers 75% of the material allowing her to complete a class by studying just the differential so it is redundant to take a separate class to repeat the biology material and learn an additional 25% content.  You are right, the credits in themselves are sensible credits, we simply had found a much more efficient way to meet those credits so the 4.5 credits seem like a waste compared to how we would have completed those credits homeschooling, especially since the average school year is only 7 credits to begin with.

[abcmommy]

You would have to look at the curriculum objectives and see if they are of interest and are the best use of time for your child. In my area, its pitched as a program for students who have an interest, but havent pursued that interest. Computer program for ex is python.there is nothing for students who did python in elementary or middle and want to expand their knowledge of java or c++ . The student here that would take this type of class would be someone who the district views at risk for dropping out, or they are interested in engineering but do not have the college prep coursework or the opportunity to do hands on at home. In other words, the students who work on cars and small engimes, or spend their saturday wiring houses with a relative and are interested in engineering wont be in the class...they are beyond the scope and the guidance counselor will suggest college prep math and science and an ec that allows them to work with experts...robotics team, science club, etc.

 

Does one need this type of class? Maybe, but with so many ecs that were more advanced, it wasnt worth 3 class periods daily for our local option. My engineering kid took math and science instead. His friends that went into engineering that werent taking fine arts electives took business courses as their electives and everyone used the internet or local connections to learn to program.community ecs introduced them to problem solving, hands on, design etc.

  PLTW is a curriculum product.  You always seem to have some interesting views about public schools and whom they target and why.  In our area PLTW courses are weighted.  The amount of work required is certainly not typical of the type of kid who would drop out.  Im not sure how many kids master python in elementary school but I'm guessing the numbers are extremely low.

[sewpeaceful]

My son is doing the bio med track and these classes have been EXCELLENT.  Much more rigorous AND engaging than others.  I would say yes yes yes based on my son's experiences!

 

abcmommy, that is great to know.  With the program just kicking off, we have no way of knowing which specialties will be brought in or implemented for her senior year.  We have the plain vanilla engineering program being kicked off.  Biomed wouldn't interest her but I could see the civil architecture track intriguing her.  Thank you for posting.

[abcmommy]

For those who are interested, these classes are certainly NOT for sub par students.

 

https://www.pltw.org/

[abcmommy]

abcmommy, that is great to know.  With the program just kicking off, we have no way of knowing which specialties will be brought in or implemented for her senior year.  We have the plain vanilla engineering program being kicked off.  Biomed wouldn't interest her but I could see the civil architecture track intriguing her.  Thank you for posting.

 

 

Its a curriculum product your school is buying/ investing in.  I think on the website it shows the engineering scope/ sequence which may help you decide.  The comp sci program seems to have only 2 levels currently.  Our school has all 4 of bio med, having added the 4th year in the last few years as they had students who needed it.  

[Lori D.]

…the school has APs and a robotics team

...but also requires *2* years of PE...

...won't recognize her year of high school french because they don't have french (only Spanish and Italian) requiring her to start her foreign language requirements over...

...and we were creatively meeting the state's fine arts requirements but she would have to meet it in the classroom..

...add the health requirement we were meeting in other ways and we are at 4.5 credits just in ridiculous credits. 

 

 

I am not sure those things strike me as ridiculous credits?

 

I can't see that it would be bad for her to do two years of PE, or that two years of Spanish or Italian would be a bad thing - all of those seem, on their own, to be objectively fine to me.

 

It would be too bad not to have a chance to do more French if she would really like to learn it.

 

The health and art might be better or worse, it seems hard to say.  But I would base that on how they compare to what she would be doing outside of school, not on whether they count as credits or not.  If it is a good art class, that seems like a good use of time.

 

First, 4.5 credits only averages out to 1 credit per school year, plus a 0.5 credit course you could do as summer school. So when you look at the big picture of your student taking 6-8 credits per year of high school, 1 credit per year isn't going to keep DD from the STEM courses. ;) And, all of those 4.5 credits fill required credits for college admissions, in Foreign Language, Fine Arts, or Electives. :)

 

Second, I did just want to agree with Blue Goat here, that these are very standard types of credits that colleges see *all* the time. The 2 years of Foreign Language and 1 year of Fine Arts are very standard required credits for college admissions, and the 2.5 credits for PE and Health are Electives, and colleges also expect to see 4-8 or more Electives on the student's transcript.

 

One other thing to note is that if you homeschool high school, you'll still have to continue for at least 1 more year of French, if not 2, and you will have to complete 1 credit of Fine Arts during high school (to meet college admission requirements). And the Health credit you are doing currently in middle school is is an Elective and does not transfer up to the high school transcript, even if you are doing a high school level program.

 

The reason for this is that colleges frequently only accept credits from the last 4 years of high school, with the only credits that are "brought up" from middle school onto the transcript are academic courses in which the student continues to progress in high school at higher levels -- so, as long as the student continues to progress with more coursework in high school, courses that can be brought up from middle school include:

Math = Algebra 1 and above

Science = Biology and above

Foreign Language = with the student taking at least 1-2 years of the next levels in high school

 

Courses, even if done at high school level of rigor/volume that are not brought up from middle school:

Humanities (English, Social Sciences)

Fine Arts

Electives

 

Just mentioning this in case you opt to homeschool through high school, to help you plan credits that not only advance DD in her interests and prepare her for a STEM field, but also to have an idea of what is required for college admissions. For a STEM field, and also to be competitive for top tier and selective schools:

4 credits = English

4+ credits = Math (through Pre-Calculus as a minimum, preferable through Calculus, with possible Statistics or other Advanced or college Math)

4+ credits = Science (with labs, with 1-2+ credits being Advanced Sciences)

3-4 credits = Social Sciences (1 credit = US History)

2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts

4-8 credits = Electives (with 3-4+ being Academic Electives -- additional courses in English, Math, Science, Social Science, or Foreign Language, beyond the required -- also a great way to develop a sort of "minor" with several classes in Computer or Engineering)

24-28+ credits = total -- plus, some possible AP tests or dual enrollment to show advanced level of work for competitive college admissions and scholarships

 

BEST of luck in planning your STEM-based high school studies, whatever you decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Oops! Crossposted with your response to BlueGoat! ;)

 

BlueGoat, I apologize.  You are right in that they aren't ridiculous credits.  But when she is swimming 12 hours a week on the swim team, playing on a girls golf team, rowing, and hiking, the credits seem redundant to me (assuming the point is to teach physical fitness), preventing her from taking 2 credits classes that intrigue her.  Yes, she would love to continue French so that is a true loss for her.  She would be completing health with us but our biology course covers 75% of the material allowing her to complete a class by studying just the differential so it is redundant to take a separate class to repeat the biology material and learn an additional 25% content.  You are right, the credits in themselves are sensible credits, we simply had found a much more efficient way to meet those credits so the 4.5 credits seem like a waste compared to how we would have completed those credits homeschooling, especially since the average school year is only 7 credits to begin with.

 

These are very important considerations that you would likely be giving up if wanting to go with the special Engineering program. There are pros and cons to every educational choice -- it's tough to decide when going with either option means losing out on some other important options.

 

Going with Engineering courses online options and with dual enrollment can still allow you to pursue early Engineering and advanced STEM while homeschooling -- in fact can allow you to tailor the courses to more precisely fit DD's interests, needs, and goals. But, if DD would do better with a group in pursuing these topics, rather than solo/independently, then the school option might be the better route, and DD will have to rein in some of the extracurriculars. Hopefully, the school has a swim team and golf team, so she would still be able to do those activities.

 

Would the public school allow her to continue the French via dual enrollment? Also, might they consider letting her test out of the Health -- if she takes the end-of-year Health final and passes it, would the school check that off as completed? Just some thoughts, as it never hurts to ask -- they might even say yes! :) BEST of luck in deciding! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Lori D.

[sewpeaceful]

LoriD, Thank you for both of your replies.  

 

First, we are not studying health right now.  We plan to cover the delta 25% from our 9th grade honors biology class on breaks, but not as a formally scheduled class.  The only classes we were carrying over from middle school were Algebra ! and French 1.  She is slated to do Honors Biology in 9th regardless of where she attends school.

 

Second, the school has a swim team who has been trying to recruit her since 6th grade so that isn't a concern.  There isn't a golf team; however she would finally have the opportunity to do robotics again.   :)   The school was clear that her foreign language would have to start over which disappoints her because she has thoroughlyenjoyed french this year (using a high school text and attending a weekly french lab for oral practice).  The school has a reputation for being open to dual credit and outside resources when they can no longer meet the need of the student.  On the other hand, since they have more than enough foreign language available, they don't allow outside resources.  If she wanted to study Italian V, they the college is an option and those pathways are already created.  I hope that makes sense.

 

Finally, yes, I have looked into the graduation requirements of her top 3 schools.  What you posted is right in line with what we learned.  One delta between the high school requirements and our homeschool plan was the fine arts.  All 3 colleges had no issue with her satisfying the Fine Art credit with a CADD Architecture course because of the architecture study involved with the class.  The high school offers the CADD Architecture but won't count it as fine arts, rather only a tech credit.  This was allowing us to satisfy a fine arts credit with a STEM interest.  This option isn't available at the high school.  

 

And I couldn't agree more than she needs to trim a few of those extra curricular hours but that is part of the growing up / time management lesson and for her to decide when the time comes.  

 

Thank you again for posting.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by sewpeaceful

[Lori D.]

… The school was clear that her foreign language would have to start over… The school has a reputation for being open to dual credit and outside resources when they can no longer meet the need of the student.  On the other hand, since they have more than enough foreign language available, they don't allow outside resources...

 

...All 3 colleges had no issue with her satisfying the Fine Art credit with a CADD Architecture course because of the architecture study involved with the class.  The high school offers the CADD Architecture but won't count it as fine arts, rather only a tech credit.  This was allowing us to satisfy a fine arts credit with a STEM interest.  This option isn't available at the high school...

 

Too bad about the French/dual enrollment not being an option. :( At least, having already studied French would make switching to a different  Romance language (Italian or Spanish) a snap for DD.

 

JMO, but I see having to take an actual Fine Arts course, rather than the tech-based CADD Architecture as a GOOD thing, in helping a highly STEM-based person become a little bit more rounded. Who knows -- she may even discover a previously unrealized personal interest that will be very satisfying to carry over into adulthood as a hobby. :)

 

One other thing to check with the school is to see if they will accept having DD knock out a required credit in the summer, freeing up more time for those extracurriculars, and boosting her credit count without overloading the school year -- things that aren't that burdensome, like Health, Economics, Government, etc.

 

cheers! Lori

[raptor_dad]

Now see, that's interesting. I answered in the other thread, but the engineering classes that are offered for our PLTW courses are the same courses offered at the local university (which has a respected engineering program) for freshman engineering students.

 

Maybe some places they are the same? Locally UMN offers class credits for all of the PLTW courses but they aren't the same courses engineering majors and pre-majors are required to take. They explicitly state you can use up to 6 credits of these courses only for general education electives.

[sewpeaceful]

Maybe some places they are the same? Locally UMN offers class credits for all of the PLTW courses but they aren't the same courses engineering majors and pre-majors are required to take. They explicitly state you can use up to 6 credits of these courses only for general education electives.

 

Raptor_dad,

We have the same situation here as you do: our local, PLTW sponsoring university will award credits for the classes taken; however, those credits aren't required credits for their engineering degrees and are used to fill in general electives.  A few universities who award these credits, like RPI if I am not mistaken, also require the family to pay a nominal fee for the credits.  The PLTW credits are only partly useful.  And 2 of the schools my daughter is looking at don't award any credit for PLTW.  For all of these reasons, college credit isn't the primary motivation.  Thank you for chiming in again.  

[Grantmom]

It's a tough call.  What does she want to do?  We faced a similar decision here, though it wasn't PLTW.  The high school developed a similar track for STEM students that was designed to meet the same needs.  In the end, we wound up choosing to continue to homeschool and cobble together our own path.  It made more sense for us so that we could accommodate the things the student wanted to study and do.  But, I don't think there are any right or wrong answers.  I also don't think it will make or break a college application, if you are concerned about that.  If you continue to homeschool, will you have similar or better opportunities?

[sewpeaceful]

It's a tough call.  What does she want to do?  We faced a similar decision here, though it wasn't PLTW.  The high school developed a similar track for STEM students that was designed to meet the same needs.  In the end, we wound up choosing to continue to homeschool and cobble together our own path.  It made more sense for us so that we could accommodate the things the student wanted to study and do.  But, I don't think there are any right or wrong answers.  I also don't think it will make or break a college application, if you are concerned about that.  If you continue to homeschool, will you have similar or better opportunities?

 

Grantmom, I don't know if she knows what she wants to do.  She knows she loves science, math, Legos, problem solving, building things out of anything she can find, and working in groups (she is very social).  Her dad is an engineer.  On the flip side, she attended a class about Data Science at Yale and loved it.  The high school cannot expose her to data science or any programming language beyond java at the moment.  Yes, we can offer her an abundance of STEM classes at home through online resources, community college classes, home  based curriculums, and co-ops.  Our homeschool offerings have a wider variety which I think is good because she hasn't honed in on 1 discipline of engineering which intrigues her, let alone know for sure if engineering is for her.  I spent 2 years in engineering before I realized I didn't like it and switched majors to data science and was in love.  

 

Do you mind sharing why you decided against the program being offered by your local high school? 

[elegantlion]

What are your options for dual enrollment in the future? Giving up homeschooling was not an option for ds, he adamantly did not want to attend public school. He did programming in high school and has breezed through his two programming classes at college this year. We did not have the opportunity to dual enroll, but if we had, I would have dual enrolled him for the computer and math classes to earn credit and avoid the redundant learning - there was no test outs available. 

 

You can find the PLTW books for sale online, teacher resources can be harder to find, and that obviously would not replicate any in class labs. the little I looked into the program, much of it was focused on general engineering and mechanical engineering in our area (not the areas ds wants to pursue) and it didn't feel like there was enough benefit to even consider giving up homeschooling. 

 

For ds, I decided there were other ways to expose him to engineering concepts. We weren't able to take advantage of all of them. 

 

This CK12 book is a brief overview of engineering. He also took a few courses through Coursera or Edx. 

[Grantmom]

Actually, I should have phrased my question more specifically, but I meant what does she want to do about this choice, as in does she want to keep homeschooling or does she want to do this program?  It sounds like both options for your DD could be great, continue to homeschool or this program.  So some of it comes down to just what does she want/feel/need at this moment.  For us, it came down to exactly what you just described.  Being able to take advantage of really interesting and unique opportunities, like the data science course you described, was something about homeschooling we just didn't want to give up.  In the school program, you are locked into taking that one preset path.  My student wanted to be able to carve out the best path for him, and homeschooling gave us the flexibility and time to do that.  You aren't locked into their track.  With the program here, you had your entire four years planned out for you, and there were some things that he wouldn't have been able to get to.

 

It's a tough decision, and I always have a hard time with these choices, too!  Good luck.

[MarkT]

 

 

For ds, I decided there were other ways to expose him to engineering concepts. We weren't able to take advantage of all of them. 

 

This CK12 book is a brief overview of engineering. He also took a few courses through Coursera or Edx. 

What online courses did he like?

 

Did you use that CK12 book?

Opinions?

[elegantlion]

What online courses did he like?

 

Did you use that CK12 book?

Opinions?

 

The CK12 book is a basic introduction. There are a few experiments to do, iirc, but nothing really stunning. I had ds read a few chapters, but he already had some familiarity with engineering, so he didn't learn much. 

 

I can't remember all the courses he took, some he did parts like listen to the lectures. He did work through "Introduction to Mathematical Thinking" on Coursera.

 

He also went through the Survey of Systems Engineering Course mostly as exposure, he did not do all the assignments. 

[katilac]

<snip> In my area, its pitched as a program for students who have an interest, but havent pursued that interest. <snip> The student here that would take this type of class would be someone who the district views at risk for dropping out, or they are interested in engineering but do not have the college prep coursework or the opportunity to do hands on at home.  

 

I swear you live in the world's strangest school district.