Classics workload for each of the 4 years of the 4-year cycle for elementary ages

[luuknam]

Okay, I know that this is widely open to individual opinions, and that you can always cram more books into a year than you have time, but just wondering how heavy y'all feel each of the 4 years of the history cycle are if you're reading classics from/about the time period.

 

E.g. for ancients, there are: the entire bible, the Iliad and Odyssey, Egyptian/Greek/Roman myths, parts of Hindu/Buddhist texts and Confucius, etc, etc, etc.

 

For the middle ages, there's King Arthur, Beowulf, Quran, etc, etc, etc.

 

So, if we were to take Ancients as a baseline and call the workload to cover the important classics (however you want to define that list - you don't have to agree with all the works I listed) 100, how heavy would the other 3 years be (numbers smaller than 100 meaning lower workload, numbers over 100 meaning higher workload)?

 

PS I get that not everything needs to be covered the first time through the cycle. Also, there are classics I would not attempt with an elementary-aged kid, so I wouldn't count them in the workload for elementary.

[HomeAgain]

And this is why I divided Ancients into unit studies next year.  We'll be adding 6 classics to our history unit: stories of creation, Aesop's Fables, The Story of Gilgamesh, Egyptian Myths, The children's Odyssey,  and 1001 Arabian Nights.  Each one gets 4-6 weeks to be worked into history, and we'll be doing a lighter read aloud as well (Mr. Popper's Penguins, Phantom Tollbooth, etc).  The next time through we'd probably use similar but not exact books, at a higher reading level and shorter time to work through them, getting in about 9 per year.

[Momto4inSoCal]

I think it's really going to vary person to person. If you go by time periods covered obviously Ancients covers the biggest range, middle ages next and year 3 and 4 much less but normally people don't go in depth with ancient histort like they will with US History. You cover more civilization but only broadly talk about them. Ie how they were founded, what they were known for, who conquered them. With US history you can spend a whole month or more just talking about 1 war. Imagine how long ancients or middle aged would take if you gave each war a month? It wouldn't be possible. What we've done for ancient and middle ages is assign writing assignments and books based on the history. It helps get more content in without adding work. I know some people are opposed to this method though. Veritas Press has a good booklist for each time period and so does beautiful feet. You can compare those. I assign 20 pages a day and we read one famous men story a week. However many books we get to we will do.

[kirstenhill]

Is this assuming year 1 = first grade, then year 2 = second grade, and so on?  Or is is just year 1, year 2, etc regardless of age?   With multiple kids, my DS7, for example, hits cycle year 2 (middle ages) in first grade and his first time in year 1 (ancients) in 4th grade, as he didn't really participate in literature readings as a Kindergartener.    His cycle year 1 (ancients) as a 4th grader will in all likelihood involve reading more classics and be "meatier" than DD11's first time through Ancients was a first grader.  She was ready for a few picture book versions of classic literature as a first grader.  DS7 will hopefully be able to tackle much more in his elementary year of Ancients.

 

I guess for me, if "100" is a weight assigned to whatever cycle year a family may be in when a student is in first grade, then it would naturally increase in weight each year as the student ages (but not because later classics are more important -- more because of maturity).  If you aren't taking age into account, I don't think I could reasonably answer that question, because I don't assign a "weight" to the number of classics that are read based on time period alone.   Whatever is missed the first time because they are too young to accomplish many classics of that period can be covered again future cycles.  

 

Unless I am totally missing the intent of your question.... :laugh:

 

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

We do not do modern history in elementary. My son was far too sensative. This year was 6th and wars, holocaust, depression, McCarthy came up a bit. He has very cursory knowledge of these events. I am planning modern history for either 9th or 10th grade. Only one round through. However, as we go through, the topics are not shied away from. When he asks, we discuss. If they are pertanent yo other topics, we discuss. It is just not something we will spend a whole year on befor he is 15/16.

[luuknam]

Is this assuming year 1 = first grade, then year 2 = second grade, and so on?  Or is is just year 1, year 2, etc regardless of age?   With multiple kids, my DS7, for example, hits cycle year 2 (middle ages) in first grade and his first time in year 1 (ancients) in 4th grade, as he didn't really participate in literature readings as a Kindergartener.    His cycle year 1 (ancients) as a 4th grader will in all likelihood involve reading more classics and be "meatier" than DD11's first time through Ancients was a first grader.  She was ready for a few picture book versions of classic literature as a first grader.  DS7 will hopefully be able to tackle much more in his elementary year of Ancients.

 

Pretty much any elementary year regardless of age. My oldest is doing Ancients now, in 3rd grade, and is getting more than than my youngest. For example, I read the Iliad and the Odyssey (both Gillian Cross's versions) out loud to him, and youngest listened a little bit on occasion, but mostly just went off to play, often in another room. They both listened to Gilgamesh (Ludmila Zeman's three book version). But, youngest will get another year of Ancients before finishing elementary school, so he'll go through the Iliad and Odyssey even though he didn't this year.

 

I guess I was trying to say, if you gather up all the classics you want to cover while the kids are (roughly) elementary-aged, which parts of the cycle are relatively heavier than others? I'm not religious, but I don't want my kids to finish elementary school without having encountered, for example, the bible, just because it's culturally and historically so important. Not that they're done with their educations when they finish elementary school, but I don't want to delay that to senior year of high school.

 

So far, I feel that Ancients has a LOT of important texts, so I was wondering how the other years compared. Though I probably could've left out Gilgamesh and the Iliad this year. It's hard to decide what's important.

[Lawyer&Mom]

Take a look at the Memoria Press website. I've found their schedule for covering the classics in their curriculum to be interesting.

[Lori D.]

(First, a quick confession: I didn't vote, as I really didn't at all understand your method of trying to determine "heaviness" of classics. ;) )

 

We saved most of the classics for late middle school and high school, and used the elementary/early middle school grades for factual books (History), with myths/folktales and bit of historical fiction (some of our Literature) to help "bring to life" the facts.  Most of our literature in the elementary/early middle school grades was focused on all the fabulous classic children's books and young adult works out there that can so easily be missed if all the Literature is tied to the History. We did use some adaptations of classics (like the Ludmila Zeman Gilgamesh trilogy, or Sutcliffe's Black Ships Before Troy) when the writing/illustrations were high quality and were books worthy of reading all on their own, regardless of whether or not they were a retelling of a classic.

 

JMO, but I think there can be a danger to including too many classics in the earlier years, if it is at the expense of wonderful age-appropriate Literature, but also because children can be very "black and white" in their thinking at this stage. Some children can be very resistant later on to reading the full work at the high school stage because they feel they "already know this", and there is nothing new for them to discover by digging deeper into the work.

 

All that said, esp. because you want to make sure you are covering works that are culturally and historically important, I think you can safely go with classics (or retellings of classics) that tend to most frequently be referenced in modern culture. For elementary grades that could include:

 

- key Bible stories/events/people

- Greek/Roman myths

- The Iliad, The Odyssey

- classic fairytales

- King Arthur tales

- possibly a few major Shakespeare works (the retellings as short stories for children)

 

"Second tier" or optional works (or retellings for elementary children) of frequently referenced works, come from the 18th-20th centuries; for example:

- A Christmas Carol

- Gulliver's Travels -- excerpts/retelling from the Lilliputian section

- Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

 

I would still go ahead and include a great retelling of Beowulf or The Canterbury Tales, even though those works are not at all frequently referenced or embedded into centuries of Western culture in the way Greek myths, the Bible, King Arthur, and Shakespeare are. Ancient Literature works that are referenced frequently in Western culture, BUT are more complex and difficult that I might wait on include the Oedipus cycle of plays, and other Greek plays.

 

 

Because ancient Greece and Rome provided scientific and governmental foundations for modern Western cultures, the literature and history of those cultures tends to be studied a lot in Western Civ and Humanities. After that, though, Wester Civ tends to not look beyond Europe and North America for Literature and Historical culture and references. So, religious writings of other faiths (such as the Koran, or ancient Indian works of The Ramayana) don't tend to get any coverage until high school or college, unless the family is of that faith. Even at the high school level, the study of these works tends to be a brief, cursory look, either as part of a Comparative Religions study, or as the Historical context as part of a Classical Chronological History study.

 

 

...I guess I was trying to say, if you gather up all the classics you want to cover while the kids are (roughly) elementary-aged, which parts of the cycle are relatively heavier than others? l...

 

I really think this is going to vary from person to person.

 

Some find the ancient and/or medieval classics "heavier" and harder because the cultures are SO far removed by time and location from European/North American Western civilization. Or, they find that the ancient and medieval classics "heavier" and harder because they are often written in a poetic form and have to be read in translation -- on top of being far removed culturally.

 

Some people find the English works of the 17th-19th centuries to be harder because of the older vocabulary and different/complex sentence structure, and heavier due to the deeply embedded themes that take work to excavate.

 

Some people find the 20th-21st century classics to be easier in the (often) simple/straight forward writing style but much much heavier in the philosophy and worldview presented.

 

 

As far as reading classics (or adaptations/retellings) in the elementary grades -- I think SWB does a pretty good job in TWTM of listing adaptations and retellings that are age-appropriate. You can also look at the booklists of other classical curriculum providers, or the online syllabi of classical education schools, and see what their booklists include for the elementary ages. When several of these lists overlap, then you probably have a good candidate for including in your own list. :)

 

Just my rambling 2 cents worth. BEST of luck in deciding how to proceed with your History and Literature studies! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

I don't know how to vote. Because the kids age, comparing the reading is apples to oranges. With first graders coverring the ancients, we read aloud good children's versions of The Odyssey with pretty pictures. With fourth graders covering the modern world, we read real poems from WWI and modern memoirs like Red Scarf Girl. Is one more or less? I don't know, they're just totally different.

[luuknam]

Thanks y'all.

 

By "heaviness of workload" I basically meant quantity, as in "how long does it take to read all of that stuff", rather than "how difficult are the themes etc".

 

And no, not all of our reading is linked to the history cycle. We listen to audiobooks in the car that are usually not part of the cycle, and the kids read books on their own that are no part of the cycle. It's mostly read alouds that I'm matching up (and then there are read alouds that don't match up, such as some poetry and non-fiction).

[MerryAtHope]

I don't know how to vote. Because the kids age, comparing the reading is apples to oranges. 

 

exactly.

 

Thanks y'all.

 

By "heaviness of workload" I basically meant quantity, as in "how long does it take to read all of that stuff", rather than "how difficult are the themes etc".

 

I come at this differently. If I'm doing year 1 in first grade, and year 4 in 4th grade--I'm going to be doing vastly different amounts of work, you know? I allow time (and sometimes an intangible sense of what's "enough" vs. what's "too much" for my kids on a particular day, week, month, or year) to be the guide. There is an inexhaustible list of things one *could* read, even when considering "age-appropriate" books. That doesn't mean one *should* read that much, or that to "cover" the topic, one *must* read that much. Decide a good pace for your family each year, and let that help guide your decisions on how many books you read and how thoroughly you cover a time period. Remember, elementary is not your last rodeo for each cycle. Make it your goal to kindle a flame--to develop an interest in different people, times, and places instead. 

[Farrar]

I think I see what you're asking, but think about it this way... you're only going to do a certain amount of school time with a first grader, let's say 2-3 hours maybe. The reading is what fills the time. But you're going to do more with a 4th grader, so the reading will again, fill the time. There's more time. I don't love this metaphor for various reasons, but it's like the first grader is mini cup, the fourth grader is a cereal bowl. It will take more reading to fill the cereal bowl. But it's not that the reading is more, it's that the child is more. If you started the Ancients with a 3rd or 4th grader, you'd do more reading at a higher level naturally. If you had a first grader tagging along for early modern, you'd do less at a lower level, also naturally. It's about the child and the time, not the time period and what it covers.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Farrar

[MerryAtHope]

It's about the child and the time, not the time period and what it covers.

 

yes.

[elizahelen]

I think it depends on what really engages your child and you. If they love it, they will retain it. I also think narrow and deep beats wide and shallow. So i pick from classics lists in chronological order, but skip things that bore my child or me. Then with what my child loves, i read several versions of it, review it, relate it to our life, or the Bible, etc. Then we move to the next topic chronologically. And kudos for promoting literacy!! I wish we had neighborhood kids who got the classical references my six year old makes.

 

Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk

[Momto4inSoCal]

Thanks y'all.

 

By "heaviness of workload" I basically meant quantity, as in "how long does it take to read all of that stuff", rather than "how difficult are the themes etc".

 

And no, not all of our reading is linked to the history cycle. We listen to audiobooks in the car that are usually not part of the cycle, and the kids read books on their own that are no part of the cycle. It's mostly read alouds that I'm matching up (and then there are read alouds that don't match up, such as some poetry and non-fiction).

They will read the amount you assign or don't assig there are lots of books spread out over multiple age ranges and there is no way you will read all of them no matter what era or age you are dealing with. You have to look at your child and decide what your goals are and pick the amount and level that works. Do you want to do a good books/great books approach? Are you looking for more of a living books/ Charlotte Mason approach? Just want to align your books with history? Cover things that you are already going over or cover stuff that is missed in the curriculum?