Teaching writing the Robinson Curriculum way?

[Kuovonne]

Both Robinson Curriculum and A-Squared (Accelerated Achievement) Curriculum recommend teaching writing by having the student write a paper a day. However, neither program gives much other guidance.

 

Do any other program use this method (a paper a day)? Do they give more guidance?

 

Have any of you used this method of teaching writing? How did it work?

 

I have long struggled with finding a writing program that I like, and finally decided to give this method a try. I am liking it so far, but it's been only about a month, and I don't know if I'm just still in the honeymoon phase. (I've been in the honeymoon phase with soooo many writing progams that I end up discarding.)

 

My DDs haven't managed to write a paper a day. It's more like one composition every other day. They are about 1 - 1.5 handwritten pages, skipping lines, so not quite a full page of text. They also doesn't revise; they write first drafts only. (I do plan on having them revise one composition out of every five or so.)

 

I also don't correct mechanics (spelling, punctuation, etc.) but I do give feedback. (Coming up with the feedback takes a *long* time.)

 

 

I'd like to hear from others on their experience with this method, tips, pitfalls, etc.

If this method has worked for you, what made it successful?

If this method didn't work for you, why not?

 

Thank you.

[Sahamamama]

Funny, I never would have juxtaposed "teaching writing" with "Robinson Curriculum." Huh. :huh:

[Another Lynn]

I did something similar with my oldest when he was around 6th grade.  Writing curricula were just not working for us.  We would open one up and think "Really?"  We were both miserable trying to make them work.  So for part of that year I told him to write something every day.  He generally wrote between half and a full page (handwritten, not skipping lines).  I had a list of topics if he couldn't come up with one, but he never used my list.  I have said before that I think that was the best thing we ever did for writing.  In hindsight, he was not one for whom parts- to- whole worked, especially as far as writing goes, and many of the curricula we tried were parts to whole.  Bravewriter probably would have been great for him. 

[1Togo]

With RC, students do not write a paper a day. They are required to write at least 1 page per day. They can write more if they want. The topic and format are the student's choice. The paper is put in the parent's inbox. The parent writes suggestions on the paper & the student corrects. So, writing for the day includes the one page & corrections on a piece of writing. This work is elementary to late middle school. By high RC students are working on APs.

[1Togo]

With RC, students do not write a paper a day. They are required to write at least 1 page per day. They can write more if they want. The topic and format are the student's choice. The paper is put in the parent's inbox. The parent writes suggestions on the paper & the student corrects. So, writing for the day includes the one page & corrections on a piece of writing. This work is elementary to late middle school. By high RC students are working on APs.

[Kuovonne]

Funny, I never would have juxtaposed "teaching writing" with "Robinson Curriculum." Huh. :huh:

Well, I didn't know what else to call it.

My understanding is that the student writes a page a day. The parent gives feedback, without the student necessarily making any changes.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Are there any other programs for teaching writing that use this basic formula?

 

It seems to be working for my kids. At least they seem to prefer it to the other programs we've tried, and their writing has improved. Normally I prefer textbook where you do the next thing, so this is new territory for me.

[Kuovonne]

I did something similar with my oldest when he was around 6th grade. Writing curricula were just not working for us. We would open one up and think "Really?" We were both miserable trying to make them work. So for part of that year I told him to write something every day. He generally wrote between half and a full page (handwritten, not skipping lines). I had a list of topics if he couldn't come up with one, but he never used my list. I have said before that I think that was the best thing we ever did for writing. In hindsight, he was not one for whom parts- to- whole worked, especially as far as writing goes, and many of the curricula we tried were parts to whole. Bravewriter probably would have been great for him.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

It sounds like my kids are writing a comperable amount as your son. That's a good reference point.

 

I find I have to give my kids a super general prompt or they either don't know what to say or balk at the topic.

 

I keep looking at Braverwriter, and I own *several* of her products (Wand, Arrow, Jot it Down, Partnership Writing, Writer's Jungle, Help for High School). But somehow, her writing / language arts programs just don't work for my family. Every time I've tried, I've dropped it. I think that my kids are asynchronous in ways that don't line up with Bravewriter. I hope that it will even out later so that I can use their products.

[Kuovonne]

With RC, students do not write a paper a day. They are required to write at least 1 page per day. They can write more if they want.

What is the difference between writing a paper and writing a page or more?

I guess I'm asking what a "paper" is. I thought they were the same thing.

 

I have been having my kids write non-fiction prose with an intro, body, and conclusion. The intro and conclusion are usually only 1-3 sentences. It ends up being about 1 - 1.5 pages, skipping lines, so closer to 1/2 to 1 page of actual writing. Would that count?

 

The topic and format are the student's choice.

Sounds like I'm only slightly more restrictive. I do give a general topic, because my kids flounder without one. I do limit the format to non-fiction prose.

 

The paper is put in the parent's inbox. The parent writes suggestions on the paper & the student corrects. So, writing for the day includes the one page & corrections on a piece of writing.

Sounds like what I am doing, except that I don't have my kids make corrections.

Goodness, my kids' compositions have so many issues that making corrections would be like getting tangled up in a spider's web.

I do make comments on their work.

 

This work is elementary to late middle school. By high RC students are working on APs.

That's the ages of my kids, so again, it seems we match up.

 

What are APs?

 

**********

 

THANK YOU for the info about how RC does things. I don't have RC, and I don't know anyone who does, so I appreciate this extra info on how it works.

[EKS]

I am doing something like this right now.  I give my son a prompt (that is related to his current schoolwork in history or literature) and then I sit with him and discuss it.  I take notes, and then we discuss how to organize his response. I will also give suggestions occasionally regarding incorporating quotations.  Then he writes with me sort of looking over his shoulder, meaning that I correct any major issues on the spot.  Then he reads the paper aloud to me and I point out any errors.  This process takes about an hour each day, and I've noticed definite improvements in his writing in just the three weeks we have been doing it.

 

I plan to continue this until he can write a five page paper on his own.

Edited March 11, 2016 by EKS

[Kuovonne]

I am doing something like this right now. I give my son a prompt (that is related to his current schoolwork in history or literature) and then I sit with him and discuss it. I take notes, and then we discuss how to organize his response.

I like the idea of discussing the organization together before my kids start drafting.

I think I'll incorporate that more.

 

I will also give suggestions occasionally regarding incorporating quotations.

Hum. I don't know if my DDs are ready to include quotes yet. Something to keep in mind for the future. Thanks for the idea.

 

Then he writes with me sort of looking over his shoulder, meaning that I correct any major issues on the spot. Then he reads the paper aloud to me and I point out any errors.

What do you consider major issues and how do you point out errors?

 

My DDs have all sorts of problems with their writing, but I don't know if I

could point out their problems or correct them on the spot.

I've been writing my comments on a separate sheet of paper for them to read,

but it takes a long time to figure out what to tell them.

 

This process takes about an hour each day, and I've noticed definite improvements in his writing in just the three weeks we have been doing it.

Thanks for the time estimate. About an hour sounds like a reasonable goal. I'm not sure how long my DDs are spending, as I'm usually busy with one when the other is writing. I'll have to time it.

 

It also sounds like we've both been doing this for almost a month. (Maybe it's those February blahs that prompted both of us to try it?)

 

I plan to continue this until he can write a five page paper on his own.

How do you see the process scaling up to reach five pages?

 

While I like the process so far, I'm wondering what my DD's

maximum daily length will be, and what I'll do after that.

(Right now increasing length isn't my focus, but I hope that will come.)

[EKS]

What do you consider major issues and how do you point out errors?

...

How do you see the process scaling up to reach five pages?

 

Major issues are sentences that don't make sense, are grammatically incorrect or inconsistent (lots of wandering tenses here), don't add anything to the narrative thread, lack appropriate transition, or assume an inappropriate audience.  I also try to catch punctuation errors at this stage (by looking over his shoulder as he reads aloud).

 

I point out errors by saying things like:

 

--That sentence makes no sense.  What were you trying to say there?

--You said "He was" in the last sentence and now you are saying "he is," which is it?

--Get rid of that sentence.  It just repeats what you said previously.

--You need to help your reader here--you are about to say something that contradicts everything you said up to this point.  What transition can you use to alert your reader that this is about to happen?

--This is a formal paper.  Please replace the word "jerk" with something more appropriate.

--Remember that your audience isn't me, it is [insert appropriate audience here].  Will your audience know what you're talking about or do you need more background information? 

 

To scale things up, I anticipate that we will need to spend more time on each stage to first generate more details to write about and then to actually do the writing.

[Kuovonne]

I point out errors by saying things like:

 

--That sentence makes no sense. What were you trying to say there?

--You said "He was" in the last sentence and now you are saying "he is," which is it?

--Get rid of that sentence. It just repeats what you said previously.

--You need to help your reader here--you are about to say something that contradicts everything you said up to this point. What transition can you use to alert your reader that this is about to happen?

--This is a formal paper. Please replace the word "jerk" with something more appropriate.

--Remember that your audience isn't me, it is [insert appropriate audience here]. Will your audience know what you're talking about or do you need more background information?

Thanks for this detailed list!

I don't think that I could have my kids correct those things on the fly. My kids don't want me hovering when they write. However, these are great suggestions for comments that I can give afterwards.

 

To scale things up, I anticipate that we will need to spend more time on each stage to first generate more details to write about and then to actually do the writing.

Ok. So more time on generating ideas. That makes sense.

Do you still see writing 5 pages in one day? Or do you see transitioning to a multi-day process?

[EKS]

My kids don't want me hovering when they write.

...

 

Do you still see writing 5 pages in one day? Or do you see transitioning to a multi-day process?

 

My kid doesn't want me hovering either, but I was fed up with what I was getting when I didn't hover, so we are doing this.  He doesn't have a choice  :)

 

For a five page paper, I'm guessing that the planning stage (which looks more like a focused discussion here) will take one session (or part of one session) and the writing stage will take 2-3 sessions.

 

ETA:  My idea with the hovering is to (hopefully) get him to learn to make appropriate decisions about his writing as he is doing the writing, not later in the editing stage.  For every change I have him make, he hears me say why it needs to be done.  Over and over.  I'm hoping that by doing it this way, that he won't get dependent on me to be his editor after the fact.  I decided that having him write on his own and then discussing everything that was wrong was not only demoralizing, it also was reinforcing bad habits.  So I'm trying to correct those habits at the source rather than at the editing stage.

Edited March 11, 2016 by EKS

[1Togo]

The requirement for RC writing was one page of writing. If the student could write a paper in one page, so be it. If the student wanted to write more, then he could. Since an RC day was simple, none of the subjects; i.e. reading, writing and math, were driven by time. Instead, they read, wrote one page, worked on corrections, learned vocabulary, and worked one math lesson. In other words, the student worked on the skills necessary for independent learning. Later, they self-studied for AP (Advanced Placement) tests using a variety of materials. Their success with this method is remarkable, and it is really simple.

 

What you described; i.e. intro, etc., is a format. Dr. R did not teach formats. The student could write a story; he could write about something he learned in his reading; he could write about something going on in his life; he could write a persuasive piece. Also, Dr. R did not give prompts. I didn't really understand the process when we used RC, but I do now, and I can see how it turns out independent writers.

 

FWIW, correcting writing is critical to developing a writer. The student writes; the parent makes written suggestions; the student corrects. The student does need to learn to wrestle a bit with their writing. Fwiw, I haven't had great success with verbal coaching. 

 

1togo

 

Adding this. As mothers and teachers, we are upset when our children produce awkward/bad/horrible/messy writing, but messy writing is part of growing as a writer. Our children may produce lots of mess before they produce anything good, and it's tempting to jump in and help them produce writing that we like. I've done this for years, and it's never worked.

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by 1Togo

[Kuovonne]

ETA: My idea with the hovering is to (hopefully) get him to learn to make appropriate decisions about his writing as he is doing the writing, not later in the editing stage.

That is also what I'm hoping. My goal when I started this method is to get better first drafts.

 

I decided that having him write on his own and then discussing everything that was wrong was not only demoralizing, it also was reinforcing bad habits. So I'm trying to correct those habits at the source rather than at the editing stage.

In my comments to my kids I try to remember to tell them at least as many things that they did right as well as what they did wrong. Sometimes I really have to dig for what they did right -- hey, this time you actually followed instructions. That also forces me to limit how many problems I point out.

[Kuovonne]

The requirement for RC writing was one page of writing. If the student could write a paper in one page, so be it. If the student wanted to write more, then he could.

...

 

What you described; i.e. intro, etc., is a format. Dr. R did not teach formats. The student could write a story; he could write about something he learned in his reading; he could write about something going on in his life; he could write a persuasive piece. Also, Dr. R did not give prompts.

Okay, so it sounds like what I'm doing isn't really the RC way after all. The only similarity is that the student starts a new piece of original writing each day.

 

FWIW, correcting writing is critical to developing a writer. The student writes; the parent makes written suggestions; the student corrects. The student does need to learn to wrestle a bit with their writing. Fwiw, I haven't had great success with verbal coaching.

I do give my kids feedback on their writing. I'm still torn on the idea of having my kids make corrections. Right now, I'm hoping that the kids will implement my comments in their next compositions.

 

Adding this. As mothers and teachers, we are upset when our children produce awkward/bad/horrible/messy writing, but messy writing is part of growing as a writer. Our children may produce lots of mess before they produce anything good, and it's tempting to jump in and help them produce writing that we like. I've done this for years, and it's never worked.

Amen.

One of my lightbulb moments was reading on Bravewriter, that yes, my kids are lousy writers and it's okay that they are lousy writers.

[1Togo]

Yes, I don't think you are doing writing the RC way, but if what you are doing works for your family, then I would carry on. However, think about the possibilities of a student writing a short piece; i.e. one page or so, every day for a month and then improving each of those pieces. At the end of the month, they will have written and improved 20 pieces. Multiply that by the number of months in the school year. Years ago, I talked with one of Dr. R's daughters, and she mentioned that not all of them liked to write or were good at it, but they all learned to write well by writing a lot and by correcting their writing.

 

Fwiw, I do think students need to correct their work. I am working with our last child, a senior, and I have been requiring corrections for years. I am beginning to see the fruits of this approach, but it's been slow going. If the composition has many, many errors, work on one part of it or one concept at a time. Make suggestions. Teach through your suggestions, but I wouldn't just make a suggestion and then have no expectations for correction.

 

Just my thoughts on all of this as I look back.

 

1togo

Edited March 11, 2016 by 1Togo

[8filltheheart]

I have to agree that learning that good writing requires proofreading, editing, and rewriting is a vital part of the process.  7th grade is definitely old enough to understand that a rough draft is not the equivalent of a final polished paper.   Correcting errors is learning how to improve writing.

[Kuovonne]

However, think about the possibilities of a student writing a short piece; i.e. one page or so, every day for a month and then improving each of those pieces. At the end of the month, they will have written and improved 20 pieces. Multiply that by the number of months in the school year.

I do like the idea of writing lots of short pieces. The only program that I've heard of that uses this method (a new piece every day) is RC and A^2, and I wonder why there are so few variations.

I was hoping that I could discover more variations.

 

I've tried the composition a week method with revising, and I just wasn't seeing the progress I wanted. In the four weeks we've tried this, one kid has written 14 pieces, the other slightly less. For one kid, I have been able to break some bad habits that have plagued her for years. Even with backsliding, she has definately improved. For the other kid, I was able to more clearly identify her strengths and weaknesses.

 

Fwiw, I do think students need to correct their work. I am working with our last child, a senior, and I have been requiring corrections for years. I am beginning to see the fruits of this approach, but it's been slow going. If the composition has many, many errors, work on one part of it or one concept at a time. Make suggestions. Teach through your suggestions, but I wouldn't just make a suggestion and then have no expectations for correction.

The importance of making corrections is the big thing that I've learned from this thread.

Now to wrap my head around how to implement that for my kids.

 

Just my thoughts on all of this as I look back.

Thank you for sharing from your experience.

[Kuovonne]

I have to agree that learning that good writing requires proofreading, editing, and rewriting is a vital part of the process. 7th grade is definitely old enough to understand that a rough draft is not the equivalent of a final polished paper. Correcting errors is learning how to improve writing.

This thread has shown me that I definitely need to have my kids make some corrections to their existing compositions, not just future compositions. Even though my kids know that their first drafts are not polished, they still need to take that next step and actually do the polishing. I need to figure out how to implement that.

 

One surprising advantage of starting this method is that making comments about my kids' writing has become easier.

 

I really respect your knowledge on teaching writing. Going through Treasured Conversations with my younger daughter was one of the few programs that I didn't end up feeling super frustrated with. I tried having my kids write a composition a week, like you suggest, and for various reasons, it didn't work for my family. I think it might be related to me liking textbooks ;-) I feel honored that you found my thread worth commenting on. (Even if you feel that I am misguided.)

[ElizaG]

IDK what advice Robinson gives about marking papers, but for me, one of the most rewarding parts is figuring out how to "scaffold" by giving just the right amount of feedback. It's important to leave lots of space for the children to learn how to discover and correct their own mistakes.

 

I was thinking about this today while looking over Learning Grammar Through Writing, a book that was recommended by Ruth Beechick. With this approach, the teacher is supposed to mark each error with a code that refers to the rule that the student broke. The student looks up the code in the book, reads the rule, and corrects the error. To me, that's still pretty close to spoon-feeding. I can see how it might be necessary in a large classroom, where the teacher might not be familiar with each child's strengths and weaknesses, but as homeschoolers, we can do things in a less mechanical way.

 

For instance, if I'm pretty sure the child knows the rule in question but is being careless, I might make a general comment:

 

"Check capitalization" (at the top of the paper)

 

Or: "Do all these sentences make sense?" (Bracketing off a section with curly braces)

 

Or just an arrow pointing to the error, with something like a "Hmm..." or a "?"

 

My children seem to enjoy this, too. I guess it's about as close as they'll come on a school day to living in one of the detective novels they like so much. ;-)

[8filltheheart]

It is not that I think you are misguided. I think you are probably underestimating the value of revamping an already completed assignment.

 

I do not expect my younger kids to rewrite everything in a nice neat "pretty" final version. Having them write their assignments double-spaced allows room for them work with what they have written and make corrections /improvements without having to redo everything. Reading aloud the final version after working on the edits and commenting on why it is correct now or sounds better is a great, non-threatening approach for the beginning writer.

 

By 7th grade, however, I do have certain benchmarks that need to be met in order for an assignment to be considered completed. No major punctuation errors (a complicated construction requiring a comma is not what I am referring to. I mean basic mastery of punctuation.) No run-on sentences. No incomplete sentences. No major grammar errors. (Verb tense, subject-verb agreement, etc.) Cohesive paragraphs. Varied sentence structures. No plagiarism. Transition words. Interesting (not make me want to poke my eyes out in order to finish reading. ;)) These are things they need to have proofread and addressed before it even gets handed to me. Whether or not they have to make simple,corrections or completely rewrite an assignment really depends on how well they edited their own work.

 

How well they are internalizing what they are being taught should be reflected in what they are turning in. If those sorts of mistakes are showing up in repeated assignments, I would assume that one of two things is occurring: 1- sloppy work with little effort exerted in proofreading or 2- skills are not mastered.

 

Does lots and lots of writing over time improve quality? I honestly do not know. I am sure it probably improves quantity. My kids do listen when we talk about how to improve writing, but without practice correcting their mistakes or reworking words to improve structure and coherence, they don't necessarily internalize the corrections.

 

Only you can decide if your approach is going to get your students where you want them. My biggest suggestion would be to pick at least one major area at a time that you want evidence of mastery in the assignments when handed in. (Punctuation, complete sentences, etc.)

Edited March 12, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Kuovonne]

It is not that I think you are misguided. I think you are probably underestimating the value of revamping an already completed assignment.

I'm so glad that I started this thread. Having multiple people say the same thing helps motivate me to make that change.

 

I do not expect my younger kids to rewrite everything in a nice neat "pretty" final version.

I haven't ever had my kids rewrite anything by hand. When I want I revisions, I have them type their compositions first. They fix a surprising number of things when typing, so I have to point out much less. I shudder at the magnitude of the revolt I'd have if I insisted on a handwritten rewrite.

 

Having them write their assignments double-spaced allows room for them work with what they have written and make corrections /improvements without having to redo everything.

When I started this method, I had the kids handwrite double-spaced to leave room for corrections. They are finally writing double-spaced automatically now. However, we have yet to take advantage of that extra space.

 

Reading aloud the final version after working on the edits and commenting on why it is correct now or sounds better is a great, non-threatening approach for the beginning writer.

This works with my older DD, but not the younger one. She rarely thinks any changes I suggest are an improvement. I know that it's her and not just me because I witness the same attitude with her music teachers. Her teachers will say that she has really improved in some aspect, and she'll say that she thinks it still stinks.

 

By 7th grade, however, I do have certain benchmarks that need to be met in order for an assignment to be considered completed. No major punctuation errors (a complicated construction requiring a comma is not what I am referring to. I mean basic mastery of punctuation.) No run-on sentences. No incomplete sentences. No major grammar errors. (Verb tense, subject-verb agreement, etc.) Cohesive paragraphs. Varied sentence structures. No plagiarism. Transition words. Interesting (not make me want to poke my eyes out in order to finish reading. ;))

Thank you for this list. I love your requirement of not wanting to poke your eyes out! I'm going to borrow that phrasing.

 

This list will be helpful for the 4th grader. Correcting these things with only weekly writing assignments didn't seem to help her much. She'd make the mistake one week, correct it with my guidance, and then make the same mistake over and over again the following weeks. On the other hand, a new daily assigment has helped: finallly two papers in a row without a single exclamation point or question mark.

 

On the other hand, my 7th grader has already mastered all of these things. Of the things you list, the only thing that applies to her is major problems with commas in compound and complex sentences.

 

Does lots and lots of writing over time improve quality? I honestly do not know. I am sure it probably improves quantity. My kids do listen when we talk about how to improve writing, but without practice correcting their mistakes or reworking words to improve structure and coherence, they don't necessarily internalize the corrections.

For the past month, I've seen an improvement, in both quality and quantity, that I hadn't seen in other methods. That's why I'm so excited about it. OTOH, it's only been a month. I think that the frequent drafts is helping them internalize the corrections.

 

Only you can decide if your approach is going to get your students where you want them.

I was hoping to hear from other people who have used this approach successfully.

If others have used it successfully, then it is more likely that it will work with my kids.

If no-one else has used it successfully, then it probably has pitfalls that I'm not aware of.

 

My biggest suggestion would be to pick at least one major area at a time that you want evidence of mastery in the assignments when handed in. (Punctuation, complete sentences, etc.)

Thanks. My kids' writing have so many problems it has been hard to decide what to address. Perhaps we should pick only one major area for several compositions in a row.

[Kuovonne]

IDK what advice Robinson gives about marking papers, but for me, one of the most rewarding parts is figuring out how to "scaffold" by giving just the right amount of feedback.

Ha, ha. That's been the most difficult and frustrating part for me. That's also why not of the writing programs I've tried have worked out in the long run. The issues they talk about are not the issues that my kid needs right then.

 

It's important to leave lots of space for the children to learn how to discover and correct their own mistakes.

Hum. I think that my kids are not discovery oriented. They prefer me to tell them how to do something. Then they make their fumbling efforts.

 

Thanks for the comments!

[8filltheheart]

On the other hand, my 7th grader has already mastered all of these things. Of the things you list, the only thing that applies to her is major problems with commas in compound and complex sentences.......

 

 

My kids' writing have so many problems it has been hard to decide what to address. Perhaps we should pick only one major area for several compositions in a row.

 

I am having difficulty understanding what your 7th grader is or is not doing.  If she has mastered everything in that list and her turned in assignments reflect that mastery, what are the "so many problems that is hard to decide what to address"?  Could you share some examples?  (I don't mean her writing, just generic problems.)

[Ellie]

Are you working on mechanics (capitalization, punctuation, grammar) at all outside of the writing time?

[Kuovonne]

I am having difficulty understanding what your 7th grader is or is not doing. If she has mastered everything in that list and her turned in assignments reflect that mastery, what are the "so many problems that is hard to decide what to address"? Could you share some examples? (I don't mean her writing, just generic problems.)

She has mastered most of the mechanics of writing, those things for which I can cite definitive rules. You explicitly exclude complicated constructions that require commas, but that is the main area where her punctuation is a mess. She does have the occasional run-on, but again I think it is a punctuation issue. I also tend to think that comma placement is subject to interpretation, so it is particularly frustrating when her comma usage doesn't match any acceptable versions.

 

Most of her problems have to do with her ideas and organization. She veers off topic, but has woven the transition so tightly into her piece that I don't know where to cut it off. She starts supporting one idea, then ends up supporting a totally different point of view, even when she has an outline. I don't know if she should change her original premise, or if she should strike out the reversal later on. Doing either would require an almost total rewrite. I know that she is not yet skillful enough to gracefully explore both sides.

 

She gets stuck in the mental mode of having three supporting paragraphs, even though we've discussed over and over again that the content should dictate the number of paragraphs and not vice versa. Yet, once the piece is written, it isn't easy to say what the other pararaph should be about. Or she starts with more than three paragraphs in her outline, but merges two of them in the actual composition in ways that makes it impossible to easily separate them.

 

She tends to use the same types of transitions. The transitions aren't bad. In fact they work quite well, but they are the same ones she used in the last several compositions, and I want her to expand her repertoire.

 

Her introductions are still very short (only 1-3 sentences), and I'd like her to expand her introductions and learn more techniques for writing introductions. The same applies to her conclusions.

 

She gets horrible writer's block if she isn't inspired by the topic (even if it is a topic she knows about). She is also easily distracted.

 

*******

 

Basically she has all the regular problems that plague people who are learning to write. I don't think she is a bad writer for her age or grade; just that she is a bad writer compared to exit level skills.

[Ellie]

 

She gets stuck in the mental mode of having three supporting paragraphs, even though we've discussed over and over again that the content should dictate the number of paragraphs and not vice versa. Yet, once the piece is written, it isn't easy to say what the other pararaph should be about. Or she starts with more than three paragraphs in her outline, but merges two of them in the actual composition in ways that makes it impossible to easily separate them.

 

...

Her introductions are still very short (only 1-3 sentences), and I'd like her to expand her introductions and learn more techniques for writing introductions. The same applies to her conclusions.

 

 

One of the reasons I like Writing Strands is that it doesn't focus on writing paragraphs, and when it does teach how to write paragraphs, it doesn't have any formulas, e.g., an arbitrary number of paragraphs or introductions. Not all kinds of writing require introductions. :-)

[Kuovonne]

Are you working on mechanics (capitalization, punctuation, grammar) at all outside of the writing time?

For my 7th grader, I don't work on mechanics outside of writing time. She doesn't need it, except for commas in complex sentences. She has enough grammar that she can fix them when I point them out, and I was coaching her on fixing them before we switched to the new writing method last month. However, now that she is writing a composition a day, I am struggling to find a balance between fixing her comma problems and dealing with other writing problems.

 

For my 4th grader, I am working on spelling, punctuation, and grammar outside of writing time. She has a very long way to go with these things, but she is also only in 4th grade. So I want to focus her writing time on her other writing problems.

[Kuovonne]

By 7th grade, however, I do have certain benchmarks that need to be met in order for an assignment to be considered completed. ... Whether or not they have to make simple,corrections or completely rewrite an assignment really depends on how well they edited their own work.

I think that my 7th grader's writing does meet those benchmarks. Would you require significant changes or a rewrite for a composition that has problems beyond those benchmarks?

 

Is there a harder set of benchmarks that would result in an unacceptable paper from an older kid?

[aaplank]

I think graphic organizers are a great way to visually organize thoughts before writing. You could check the flow and cohesiveness of her thoughts beforehand so she doesn't have to rewrite a whole paper. If you go to Pinterest you'll see tons of samples for all kinds of writing types. I also strongly believe that talking through the ideas and speaking them aloud is a much needed precursor to writing.

[Another Lynn]

What if she did a "free write" not worrying too much about changing course in a paragraph, etc.  Then, afterwards go through it together and list the main ideas from her writing.  Then re-evaluate the logical flow of those ideas.  (Put those ideas into a graphic organizer or an outline.)  Then have her re-write from the graphic organizer or outline rather than revise the first writing she did.  I don't think that would work with a composition/day plan, but for some kids the act of writing helps them get their ideas out and then they can go back and organize it.  If this approach works, I would consider the first writing just a free write, a way to generate ideas, and not necessarily a first draft.  You could potentially "free write" every day and then at the end of the week pick one to do this with and work on it the following week.  Then the week after that, start daily free writes again.  (I'm just throwing ideas out there off the top of my head, so feel free to shrug it off it it doesn't sound like what you want to do!)   

[8filltheheart]

Most of her problems have to do with her ideas and organization. She veers off topic, but has woven the transition so tightly into her piece that I don't know where to cut it off. She starts supporting one idea, then ends up supporting a totally different point of view, even when she has an outline. I don't know if she should change her original premise, or if she should strike out the reversal later on. Doing either would require an almost total rewrite. I know that she is not yet skillful enough to gracefully explore both sides.

 

She gets stuck in the mental mode of having three supporting paragraphs, even though we've discussed over and over again that the content should dictate the number of paragraphs and not vice versa. Yet, once the piece is written, it isn't easy to say what the other pararaph should be about. Or she starts with more than three paragraphs in her outline, but merges two of them in the actual composition in ways that makes it impossible to easily separate them.

 

She tends to use the same types of transitions. The transitions aren't bad. In fact they work quite well, but they are the same ones she used in the last several compositions, and I want her to expand her repertoire.

 

Her introductions are still very short (only 1-3 sentences), and I'd like her to expand her introductions and learn more techniques for writing introductions. The same applies to her conclusions.

 

She gets horrible writer's block if she isn't inspired by the topic (even if it is a topic she knows about). She is also easily distracted.

Based on your description, I would not say she as mastered the benchmarks I listed. I would expect a 7th grader to stay on topic and have cohesive paragraphs working together to fulfill whatever their thesis is.

 

It sounds like she has pretty good mastery of mechanics and grammar but is weak in organization and focus.

 

It sounds like she needs remediation in how to organize her ideas and how to determine appropriate from inappropriate information as it relates to her thesis. If it were my child, I wouldn't continue the approach you are describing bc I know from my own weak writers just how much effort I had to put in to help them master the structure of writing.

[Kuovonne]

I think graphic organizers are a great way to visually organize thoughts before writing.

 

 

Her outlines are fine before she starts writing. It is after she starts writing that she gets caught up in the flow of her own words sometimes.

 

What if she did a "free write" not worrying too much about changing course in a paragraph, etc.  ....  (I'm just throwing ideas out there off the top of my head, so feel free to shrug it off it it doesn't sound like what you want to do!)

 

Thanks for the suggestion (and the permission to shrug it off). We tried something like this earlier. I thought she would like it; turns out she didn't. That was one of the reasons why I switched methods.

[Kuovonne]

Based on your description, I would not say she as mastered the benchmarks I listed. I would expect a 7th grader to stay on topic and have cohesive paragraphs working together to fulfill whatever their thesis is.

Okay that's fair. She isn't writing with a thesis yet, as it is too difficult for her to come up with a thesis at this point. For various reasons that I don't want to get into here, I am not going to give her a thesis.

 

It sounds like she has pretty good mastery of mechanics and grammar but is weak in organization and focus.

Yes.

 

It sounds like she needs remediation in how to organize her ideas and how to determine appropriate from inappropriate information as it relates to her thesis. If it were my child, I wouldn't continue the approach you are describing bc I know from my own weak writers just how much effort I had to put in to help them master the structure of writing.

I actually didn't discover these trends in her problems until after starting this method of a composition a day, because I wasn't seeing any one problem frequently enough. Her prior writing was also almost exclusively reporting of facts, and she doesn't have problems with that.

 

Now she'll sometimes tell me what the problems are as she hands the composition in. I think she feels safe recognizing these problems because she knows she won't have to fix them. She also doesn't know *how* to fix them once they are created. Instead of trying to fix that first composition, which would probably require a total rewrite, we discuss the problem and I ask her to avoid it on the next composition. And she does avoid *that* problem but ends up tangled up in a different problem within the next few compositions. My hypothesis is that with enough practice, she will be able to avoid all of these problems in her first drafts, so that she won't have to fix them. Then we can try revising again. (Actually, I am planning on having her revise one composition out of every 5-10, picking whichever one is the easiest to fix.)

Edited March 14, 2016 by Kuovonne

[leeannpal]

Teaching how to write a thesis, a good, strong introduction, and a complete conclusion is one of the best ways to help a student's writing to become more organized. Creating an outline that includes a thesis statement is an excellent way for many students to see exactly what their paper is about before they begin writing paragraphs.  I believe that students need to learn the steps of  formal, academic writing during the middle school years in addition to creative writing.

[Chrysalis Academy]

In my (limited!) experience, there is a phase of writing - say, upper elementary school - where kids are still really working on how to write competent paragraphs that make sense and don't have glaring grammatical errors. I think a good approach at that stage is to have them write lots of paragraphs, and with each one, pick one thing to praise - something they did really well, a nice turn of phrase, a strong verb choice - and one thing to have them improve - whether it's a grammatical error, or the need for sentence variety, or poor word choices, or weak transitions.  Just one thing.  This way, they get the chance to see what they are doing well and feel encouraged, and they get to see the concrete steps they can take to improve, without getting overwhelmed or discouraged. If you keep at it, those "just one things" really add up, and you will find that you are systematically addressing the things *your* kid needs to work on to improve their writing.

 

Then, at some point - say, between 6th-8th grade - you will find that you have a writer who can write competently.  Then you will start to notice that they don't really have a point, or they drift from it, or their arguments aren't well thought out, or whatever.  Now that they know how to write, you can start to work with them on having something more interesting to say.  This is really the point at which I think learning to form and support a thesis is critical.  It's hard to make a coherent point in a paper if you don't have one, if you haven't clearly articulated what it is, why you are writing and what you want to say. A couple of things about this stage:  while they are learning to form a thesis and make a coherent argument, let them write about topics of their choice.  Things they know about, and are interested in.  Don't make them write about unfamiliar/new topics in history or science, don't make them "write to learn" and to generate and flesh out new and insightful ideas - let them finish learning to write first.  So, focus on thesis-driven writing on topics the kid finds interesting.  At this stage, your comments and feedback should focus on the clarity and organization of their thesis and arguments, but do continue pointing out any errors in mechanics, they can handle working on more than one thing at this point. I find it really useful to read my dd's paper, make comments using the "notes" feature, then let her go back and read my comments and make the changes she wants to based on my comments before we actually discuss her paper.  That way she can read and take in my comments at her own pace, she doesn't feel bombarded by them.  My comments might be something like:

 

"this paragraph just restates what you said in the introduction. do you really need it, or do you have a new point to make here?"

"you lost me in this transition - how does this relate to the previous point?"

"good argument, but what about X? (counterargument)"

"watch the sarcasm -  you want to convince readers who don't agree with you, not insult them!"

 

Some of the very best resources I've found for this stage - Lively Art of Writing with the workbook, which teaches the form of the essay and a bit of style, Bravewriter classes (Kidswrite intermediate or Expository Essay) or Help for High School, and my very, very favorite writing book - Writing With a Thesis, which teaches kids that all academic writing at this level is persuasive - it should have a rhetorical purpose, a thesis and audience, and that you choose various forms to meet your rhetorical purpose.  Fabulous book.

 

Then, once they get solid on forming and supporting a thesis writing about topics they have chosen, you can start to assign topics from their subjects.  Now is the time to put it all together and begin to "write to learn".  A great book to reference at this level is the book Engaging Ideas by John Bean, the ultimate guide to writing across the curriculum (at the college level).

 

My 2 cents, FWIW.

[8filltheheart]

I agree that the reason her writing probably lacks cohesion is b/c it lacks purpose and direction.  That is the point of a thesis statement.   Here are a bunch of thesis statement helps:  https://www.google.com/search?q=thesis+statement+template&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=799&tbm=isch&imgil=dtou9h_7QowEWM%253A%253BxYdeYibwPLCApM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.plosotan.tk%25252Fexample-essay-thesis-statement.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=dtou9h_7QowEWM%253A%252CxYdeYibwPLCApM%252C_&usg=__8_MTK_sKcwl7x9G9SfsRzLd6WDU%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjimK_yvcDLAhUIbD4KHeWfB-AQyjcIJw&ei=iNfmVuK0M4jY-QHlv56ADg#tbm=isch&q=thesis+statement+template+middle+school&imgrc=_

 

Even a factual, non-position paper needs to have a driving purpose.  That purpose needs to be clearly defined in order for the student to develop their topic.

Edited March 14, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Kuovonne]

In my (limited!) experience, there is a phase of writing - say, upper elementary school - where kids are still really working on how to write competent paragraphs that make sense and don't have glaring grammatical errors. ...

This is almost my 4th grader. She still has mechanical errors (mostly spelling and some sentence fragments/run-on).

 

Then, at some point - say, between 6th-8th grade - you will find that you have a writer who can write competently. Then you will start to notice that they don't really have a point, or they drift from it, or their arguments aren't well thought out, or whatever. ...

Yes! This is my 7th grader.

 

Your comments also sound competely compatible with (and very similar to) what I am doing now.

Thank you.

[ElizaG]

Ha, ha. That's been the most difficult and frustrating part for me.

I won't deny that it's one of the most difficult parts of homeschooling, as well.  Difficult can be rewarding.  When it isn't too frustrating!  ;)

 

This thread has me thinking about long term outcomes - or "exit level skills," as you put it -- and how they relate, or don't relate, to the child's ability to meet specific benchmarks at an earlier age.

 

To me, 7th grade is very young, in writing terms.   Historically, 12 year olds were writing stories, descriptions, and friendly letters, not defending a thesis.   I would expect their thoughts to be meandering at that age, because they're just starting to figure things out on a deeper level.  My sense is that many of them don't have enough know-how to choose an appropriate thesis for a school paper -- i.e., one that they already understand well enough to deal with in the required tidy format -- because they don't yet know what they don't know.  And even if they do know how to choose a topic that would fit the requirements, they might still resist (understandably) the demand to write about something that's simplistic enough to fit their own limited abilities, right at a time when the whole world is opening up to them.   

 

This is one of my favorite parts of Cardinal Newman's Idea of a University (1854):

 

-----

Mr. Black is a man of education and of judgment. He knows the difference between show and substance; he is penetrated with the conviction that Rome was not built in a day, that buildings will not stand without foundations, and that, if boys are to be taught well, they must be taught slowly, and step by step. Moreover, he thinks in his secret heart that his own son Harry, whose acquaintance we have already formed, is worth a dozen young Browns. To him, then, not quite an impartial judge, Mr. Brown unbosoms his dissatisfaction, presenting to him his son's Theme as an experimentum crucis between him and Mr. White. Mr. Black reads it through once, and then a second time; and then he observes—

 

"Well, it is only the sort of thing which any boy would write, neither better nor worse. I speak candidly."

 

On Mr. Brown expressing disappointment, inasmuch as the said Theme is not the sort of thing which any boy could write, Mr. Black continues—

 

"There's not one word of it upon the thesis; but all boys write in this way."

 

Mr. Brown directs his friend's attention to the knowledge of ancient history which the composition displays, of Alexander and Diogenes; of the history of Napoleon; to the evident interest which the young author takes in contemporary history, and his prompt application of passing events to his purpose; moreover, to the apposite quotation from Dryden, and the reference to Horace;—all proofs of a sharp wit and a literary mind.

But Mr. Black is more relentlessly critical than the occasion needs, and more pertinacious than any father can comfortably bear. He proceeds to break the butterfly on the wheel in the following oration:—

 

"Now look here," he says, "the subject is 'Fortes fortuna adjuvat'; now this is a proposition; it states a certain general principle, and this is just what an ordinary boy would be sure to miss, and Robert does miss it. He goes off at once on the word 'fortuna.' 'Fortuna' was not his subject; the thesis was intended to guide him, for his own good; he refuses to be put into leading-strings; he breaks loose, and runs off in his own fashion on the broad field and in wild chase of 'fortune,' instead of closing with a subject, which, as being definite, would have supported him.

 

"It would have been very cruel to have told a boy to write on 'fortune'; it would have been like asking him  his opinion 'of things in general.' Fortune is 'good,' 'bad,' 'capricious,' 'unexpected,' ten thousand things all at once (you see them all in the Gradus), and one of them as much as the other. Ten thousand things may be said of it: give me one of them, and I will write upon it; I cannot write on more than one; Robert prefers to write upon all.

 

"'Fortune favours the bold;' here is a very definite subject: take hold of it, and it will steady and lead you on: you will know in what direction to look. Not one boy in a hundred does avail himself of this assistance; your boy is not solitary in his inaccuracy; all boys are more or less inaccurate, because they are boys; boyishness of mind means inaccuracy. Boys cannot deliver a message, or execute an order, or relate an occurrence, without a blunder. They do not rouse up their attention and reflect: they do not like the trouble of it: they cannot look at anything steadily; and, when they attempt to write, off they go in a rigmarole of words, which does them no good, and never would, though they scribbled themes till they wrote their fingers off. (...) "

 

-----

 

Note that those boys were applying to university, so they would have been in their late teens.   The average 12 year old is in no way going to be able to write a coherent essay without a level of explicit teaching, and breaking down into parts, that wasn't done in those days.   What would Newman have thought of the idea?   Even in the mid-20th century, 100 years after he was writing, the "new American methods" of teaching writing were just starting to be mentioned -- with skepticism -- in the teachers' college at the university he founded (this was told to me by a relative who was studying there at the time). 

 

When homeschoolers adopt modern benchmarks, and put a lot of effort into teaching and remediation to ensure that they're met, are the long-term outcomes better than they are with the more traditional / relaxed / developmental approaches that are based on learning to read challenging books, and letting structure develop along with maturity? 

 

Serious question -- I don't know.  But I have my doubts.   And we could come up with many examples of writers who were educated in the old-time way, very likely could not "stick to the argument" at age 12 or even 14, and went on to excel by any standards, not just those of our modern school system.  

 

 

ETA: added link

Edited March 14, 2016 by ElizaG

[8filltheheart]

ElizaG, I think you are over-estimating what it means to have a clear thesis (or idea) which defines your topic and under-estimating the abilities of the vast majority of 7th graders. A thesis or writing objective can be as simple as, "While to the casual observer crocodiles and alligators may look alike, their physical traits and habitats are different." Staying on topic and clearly explaining the differences is not an unrealistic objective for even many younger children.

 

ETA: The new SAT requires reading a selection (after already resting for 3hrs) and writing an analytical essay in a total of 50 mins (reading, planning, writing).

 

This link gives an example.

 

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/official-sat-study-guide-ch-17-about-sat-essay.pdf#page=11&zoom=auto,-107,467

Edited March 14, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Kuovonne]

A thesis or writing objective can be as simple as, "While to the casual observer crocodiles and alligators may look alike, their physical traits and habitats are different." Staying on topic and clearly explaining the differences is not an unrealistic objective for even many younger children.

I can see how your example is apropriate for this age group 4th-7th. However, my understanding is that it would be the topic for a report, not the thesis of an essay. My understanding is that a report is a relaying of factual information; whereas, a thesis for an essay should be a debatable contention.

 

If my 7th grader knew enough about crocodiles and alligators (which she doesn't), she would not have trouble staying on topic with that prompt. My 4th grader (again assuming she knew enough) could write a report about the physical traits and habitats of crocodiles or alligators, but would struggle if asked to compare and contrast them.

[ElizaG]

ElizaG, I think you are over-estimating what it means to have a clear thesis (or idea) which defines your topic and under-estimating the abilities of the vast majority of 7th graders. A thesis or writing objective can be as simple as, "While to the casual observer crocodiles and alligators may look alike, their physical traits and habitats are different." Staying on topic and clearly explaining the differences is not an unrealistic objective for even many younger children.

No, I don't think that's where we differ.  I know that 7th graders and younger can produce that sort of material, with specific instruction.  And I know that it's the sort of thing that's expected in today's educational system. 

 

What I'm wondering is -- does that approach provide a long-term benefit to the quality of their writing?

 

Do we have any clear evidence, one way or the other? 

[8filltheheart]

I can see how your example is apropriate for this age group 4th-7th. However, my understanding is that it would be the topic for a report, not the thesis of an essay. My understanding is that a report is a relaying of factual information; whereas, a thesis for an essay should be a debatable contention.

 

If my 7th grader knew enough about crocodiles and alligators (which she doesn't), she would not have trouble staying on topic with that prompt. My 4th grader (again assuming she knew enough) could write a report about the physical traits and habitats of crocodiles or alligators, but would struggle if asked to compare and contrast them.

I used that example b/c it would require comparing and contrasting both. It is factual, but essay writings with a thesis are not always pure opinion. They are typically assignments requiring supporting evidence for the position. For example, stepping up form the simple crocodile/alligator comparison/contrast, a 7th grader could write why Sam was the best choice as for a companion for Frodo. Same simple idea of developing factual reasons for the choice, but should be on target for the skills of most 7th graders.

 

ETA: too much multi tasking and not enough time for good clarity. I realize that half my thoughts aren't making it to the keyboard. :)

Edited March 14, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Chrysalis Academy]

I won't deny that it's one of the most difficult parts of homeschooling, as well.  Difficult can be rewarding.  When it isn't too frustrating!  ;)

 

This thread has me thinking about long term outcomes - or "exit level skills," as you put it -- and how they relate, or don't relate, to the child's ability to meet specific benchmarks at an earlier age.

 

To me, 7th grade is very young, in writing terms.   Historically, 12 year olds were writing stories, descriptions, and friendly letters, not defending a thesis.   I would expect their thoughts to be meandering at that age, because they're just starting to figure things out on a deeper level.  My sense is that many of them don't have enough know-how to choose an appropriate thesis for a school paper -- i.e., one that they already understand well enough to deal with in the required tidy format -- because they don't yet know what they don't know.  And even if they do know how to choose a topic that would fit the requirements, they might still resist (understandably) the demand to write about something that's simplistic enough to fit their own limited abilities, right at a time when the whole world is opening up to them.   

 

Note that those boys were applying to university, so they would have been in their late teens.   The average 12 year old is in no way going to be able to write a coherent essay without a level of explicit teaching, and breaking down into parts, that wasn't done in those days.   What would Newman have thought of the idea?   Even in the mid-20th century, 100 years after he was writing, the "new American methods" of teaching writing were just starting to be mentioned -- with skepticism -- in the teachers' college at the university he founded (this was told to me by a relative who was studying there at the time). 

 

When homeschoolers adopt modern benchmarks, and put a lot of effort into teaching and remediation to ensure that they're met, are the long-term outcomes better than they are with the more traditional / relaxed / developmental approaches that are based on learning to read challenging books, and letting structure develop along with maturity? 

 

Serious question -- I don't know.  But I have my doubts.   And we could come up with many examples of writers who were educated in the old-time way, very likely could not "stick to the argument" at age 12 or even 14, and went on to excel by any standards, not just those of our modern school system.  

 

 

I don't disagree that this is hard, and that 12 year olds often aren't ready to choose a thesis and stick to the argument in academic topics. That's why I think it's such a great idea to have them do that with familiar topics, and things that they care about, so that they can get lots of practice with doing it without being stretched in the subject matter. It's SWB's whole "Don't do two new hard things at once" lesson.  

 

Some of the topics my dd has chosen to write about this year: Boredom (a definition essay), Cell Phone Use among teens (Cause & Effect essay), the perks of being a book reader (comparison essay), what is means to win (a definition essay), a quality all the best sci fi books share (example essay), how to groom a horse (process essay), why horseback riding is a sport (persuasive essay).  These are all topics she knew enough about to have an opinion and be able to come up with good arguments for, but also topics she cares about, so she had motivation and interest in writing about them.  Now that she has learned to write a thesis-driven essay in all of those forms on topics she's familiar with, she's ready to start applying this newly-developed skill to more challenging topics, things she doesn't already know a lot about, and for which the thinking, research, finding sources, etc. processes will be the new challenge.

 

But that's for high school, right? after spending two years just learning how to write essays, she now can start to learn to do the next phase.  And she has four whole years to master it before being expected to do it at the college level.  

 

I do think it's really silly to ask 5th graders to write persuasive essays on topics in their curriculum.  At least, neither of my kids have been ready for that kind of combined thinking plus writing at the age of 9 or 10.  But I think that as they start growing in maturity we can start giving them the tools that they can use to begin expressing their opinions, once they've figured out how to form them!

[8filltheheart]

No, I don't think that's where we differ. I know that 7th graders and younger can produce that sort of material, with specific instruction. And I know that it's the sort of thing that's expected in today's educational system.

 

What I'm wondering is -- does that approach provide a long-term benefit to the quality of their writing?

 

Do we have any clear evidence, one way or the other?

I'm not sure what you mean by specific instruction. Are you suggesting that good writing doesn't normally require teaching? Or that that style of writing requires a different form of instruction?

 

Regardless, my kids live in today's world. They have to function as older teens according to today's expectations. Teens weren't expected to have studied calculus a century ago, doesn't mean today's teens should never have it as a goal. Fwiw, I don't think those sorts of objectives for middle schoolers are at all unrealistic. Fwiw, my kids far prefer essay writing to report writing. ;)

 

If Kuvonne is happy with her dd's writing and progress, that is really all that matters. But, I thought she started this thread asking for opinions on whether or not people thought the approach would improve her dd's skills. I am simply sharing that in my experience with my children it wouldn't. I also believe that staying on topic and having writing flow in an organized manner is a realistic goal for most 7th graders. And staying on topic, requires the formulation of an over-riding idea or thesis which guides the rest of their writing. Writing w/o one is far more difficult than having a clear vision of where you are going.

 

Fwiw, my hope for my kids is to master basic skeletal writing structures by the end of middle school so that in high school the focus is on their style. By college, I want their writing focused on the assignment, not on the how's of writing. Their structure and style should be well-mastered before then. I personally would not want my kids to reach their late teenage yrs w/o solid preparation for that sort of writing. It pretty much is the backbone of our academics from 7th grade up. :)

 

I have no idea what evidence shows for anybody other than my children. ;)

[Kuovonne]

If Kuvonne is happy with her dd's writing and progress, that is really all that matters. But, I thought she started this thread asking for opinions on whether or not people thought the approach would improve her dd's skills.

Actually, I started this thread because I noticed that this method (a composition a day) was working for my kids and I wanted to find out more about it. I couldn't find homeschool programs that used it (other than RC and A^2).

 

I was hoping to hear from others who had experience with this method. I was hoping to hear their tips and pitalls. Would they say it was a great success? Would they say it worked but needed some tweaking? Would they say they tried it, but it didn't work for a particular reason? Would they say they tried it and thought it worked, but later discovered it didn't?

 

And yes, I am satisified with my kids' progress. They have a lot to learn, but I can see that they are improving, and it is even easier for me to see this progress with this new method. I don't know how long I'll stick with it, or how I'll tweak it, but it is working for now.

[ElizaG]

I'm not sure what you mean by specific instruction.

Teaching the sorts of specific skills and rules that are included in the majority of elementary and middle school writing curricula.  How to write a paragraph, how to write a newspaper article, how to write a persuasive essay, etc.   I think we'd agree that the great majority of 12 year olds require that sort of instruction if they're going to write papers that meet current grade-level standards (such as these ones). 

 

Regardless, my kids live in today's world. They have to function as older teens according to today's expectations. Teens weren't expected to have studied calculus a century ago, doesn't mean today's teens should never have it as a goal.

This is sort of begging the question, though. 

 

Looking at the "exit level writing skills" that are expected of high school graduates today (including those that weren't expected 100 years ago), do we have good reason to believe that they're dependent on the student's having been taught so as to meet current benchmarks in elementary and middle school? 

 

Or is it possible that it would work as well (or better) just to have them read and write the English language, make corrections as we see fit, and then provide resources for them to learn the necessary formats -- whether old or new -- shortly before they're needed?

 

If Kuvonne is happy with her dd's writing and progress, that is really all that matters. But, I thought she started this thread asking for opinions on whether or not people thought the approach would improve her dd's skills. I am simply sharing that in my experience with my children it wouldn't.

This has me confused, because your previous posts left me with the impression that you've always given elementary writing assignments that go beyond what Robinson and A2 recommend.    Do you have personal experience with children who've read widely, done daily copywork until around age 10, written a paper a day on a self-chosen topic after that (with corrections from you), and then struggled to meet writing expectations in late high school?

 

Like the OP, I'm interested in the general subject.  I've heard, anecdotally, of families where this sort of approach has worked very well, and haven't heard any disaster stories.    But I'm open to evidence otherwise. 

[8filltheheart]

Teaching the sorts of specific skills and rules that are included in the majority of elementary and middle school writing curricula.  How to write a paragraph, how to write a newspaper article, how to write a persuasive essay, etc.   I think we'd agree that the great majority of 12 year olds require that sort of instruction if they're going to write papers that meet current grade-level standards (such as these ones). 

 

This is sort of begging the question, though. 

 

Looking at the "exit level writing skills" that are expected of high school graduates today (including those that weren't expected 100 years ago), do we have good reason to believe that they're dependent on the student's having been taught so as to meet current benchmarks in elementary and middle school? 

 

Or is it possible that it would work as well (or better) just to have them read and write the English language, make corrections as we see fit, and then provide resources for them to learn the necessary formats -- whether old or new -- shortly before they're needed?

 

This has me confused, because your previous posts left me with the impression that you've always given elementary writing assignments that go beyond what Robinson and A2 recommend.    Do you have personal experience with children who've read widely, done daily copywork until around age 10, written a paper a day on a self-chosen topic after that (with corrections from you), and then struggled to meet writing expectations in late high school?

 

Like the OP, I'm interested in the general subject.  I've heard, anecdotally, of families where this sort of approach has worked very well, and haven't heard any disaster stories.    But I'm open to evidence otherwise. 

 

First, I never referenced any ps standards, only my own personal benchmarks and college application and college standards.  (And, hey, as much as I ignore everything about ps, when it comes to college admissions, I am 100% serious.  I want my kids solidly prepared, and they need large academic scholarships as well.  Those require high #s on standardized tests.  Ignoring those standards means my kids' options are radically reduced b/c w/o scholarships $$, they would have to live at home and commute.)

 

Second, there is a huge difference between what is appropriate for 4th-5th grade and the end of 7th grade.  My comments have not been directed toward the 4th grader, only the 7th grader.  Yes, I absolutely believe that a goal for 7th grade should be staying on topic.  It has nothing to do with any arbitrary # of paragraphs or even a specific form of writing.  It has everything to do with mastering the fundamentals of basic writing structure....what is on topic? what is not?  what is a logical flow of information?  Is the information organized chronologically, spacially,etc?  Those are basic structures required in all good writing.

 

And no, my kids have never written the RC way.  Never claimed they have.  But, I have shared numerous times about my now 22 yod and how much she struggled when she was in 4th or 5th grade.   Her writing meandered all over the place and was not logically ordered at all.  Her writing was the stream of consciousness of "Look! Squirrel!"  She did not see it on her own.  When she was reading through them herself, she internally added information not there.  It took concentrated effort of working on logical ordering for her to begin to recognize her mistakes.

 

Whether or not the RC method works....I have no idea.  It might.  But, it is also not an approach I would take lightly with a 7th grader.   But, equally, I have specific goals for high school writing that I want my children working toward.  What they are mastering in 7th grade is important to our long term objectives.  What we do obviously works.  :)

 

I am not posting for others to agree with me.   Absolutely no one needs to.  Again, I thought she was asking for opinions on the method.  Obviously she wasn't.  I wouldn't have responded to this thread again if you hadn't directed your post directly to me.

[Kuovonne]

 

Yes, I absolutely believe that a goal for 7th grade should be staying on topic. ....what is on topic? what is not? what is a logical flow of information? Is the information organized chronologically, spacially,etc? Those are basic structures required in all good writing.

I believe these are reasonable goals for my 7th grader. She can do all of these things, just not all of them every time in a first draft, like I want her to. I also have other goals for her writing.

 

And no, my kids have never written the RC way. Never claimed they have.

...

Again, I thought she was asking for opinions on the method. Obviously she wasn't. I wouldn't have responded to this thread again if you hadn't directed your post directly to me.

I'm sorry that this thread took the turn against you that it did. I do appreciate your knowledge of writing and I have learned from it, even though I do things differently from you.

 

But, I have shared numerous times about my now 22 yod and how much she struggled ... Her writing meandered all over the place and was not logically ordered at all. ... stream of consciousness ... She did not see it on her own.

This is not my DD. When she strays from the instructions, she tells me when she hands it in. She knows that it happens, but she does not realize it is occuring when she is in the middle of drafting. She might pull it back in a later paragraph, but the mistake is already made. In fact, when she does stray from the instructions, she does so in a way that flows very well. With frequent drafts (and comments from me), I am hoping that she will be able to prevent these problems from occuring in the first place.

 

Whether or not the RC method works....I have no idea. It might. But, it is also not an approach I would take lightly with a 7th grader.

It makes me sad that you think I am doing this lightly.

Or perhaps this comment is not directed at me specifically.

 

But, equally, I have specific goals for high school writing that I want my children working toward. What they are mastering in 7th grade is important to our long term objectives. What we do obviously works. :)

Sigh. I wish your method worked for my family. I tried to make it work with the limited knowlege I have regarding your method. Unfortunately, it didn't. Maybe if you had a follow-up to Treasured Conversations that gave more hand-holding in time for the 4th grader {hint, hint}.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Kuovonne