Is it crazy to take 3 PAH classes in one year?

[quark]

Please don't quote.

 

I have an accelerated student who enjoys learning with hard, challenging work. He is targeting a math major at a "public ivy" and mostly in-state schools.

 

He has been DE-ing part to full time at our local CC for the last 2 years. He is having mixed feelings about continuing with CC (still likes electives/ foreign language there but thinks other academic subjects are rarely challenging enough). That plus some unpredictable life circumstances (work-related intra-state relocation), has us considering changing our plans for the coming year from continuing to DE at CC to taking some AP classes online via PA Homeschoolers.

 

We are so new to AP and PAH and I'm feeling a little nervous/ lost. Previously, he juggled full workloads on a semester basis (and we've become so used to the semester calendar) but with AP classes it will be year long and I have forgotten how that works. :tongue_smilie:

 

The plan is to take:

1. AP English Lit
2. APUSH
3. AP Chemistry 

His math will be at university level. Probably DE. Or he could pursue independent math study/CS research instead. He will also take foreign language and an elective at whichever CC we end up being close to.

 

 

Questions:

1. Is it crazy to lump these three AP courses together in one year (along with math, elective, FL)? I've heard that PAH's APUSH and AP Chem are among the harder AP classes. Is that true? I think he will absolutely adore the Lit. 
2. We are well aware of the 2 hours or so per day workload per AP class. Is it reasonable to assume that's how much time he will need for AP Lit, APUSH and AP Chemistry with PAH? He is used to working hard. But I am curious because I am a scheduling junkie. Can you give me some detail on what your DC's AP class scheduling is like?
3. He has been juggling about 8-9 credits since "9th grade". If next year is "12th grade", is it too obviously light if he takes 6-7 credits? There's a possibility DH might move first without us and a lighter load (if taking 3 APs is not too crazy) will allow us some time to take long weekends to visit DH monthly or every other month.

Thanks in advance!

 

ETA: we chose these APs partly due to interest (Lit, APUSH) and partly to fulfill subject requirements (Lit, APUSH, a lab science).

Edited March 8, 2016 by quark

[GoodGrief]

3 demanding APs and 3 DE classes does sound like a bit much to me. However, I'm not entirely clear on what his past academic demands have been. Is full time at the CC indicative of 6 classes, as one would get at the typical high school, or is he doing 3-4 classes per semester? Does he have much in the way of extracurricular demands; sports, music, community service, clubs?

 

One thing you should keep in mind for senior year, particularly if he is targeting selective colleges as you indicate, is that the application process itself can be incredibly time consuming between testing and essays.

 

It is true that he should avoid a perceived decreased rigor for his senior year (again, if a highly selective college is the goal), but it's hard to say what that might look like. Honestly, I might be tempted to go light on at least the US History. I would probably also try to find a foreign language and elective option that does not involve the community college.

 

In the end, only you know what your kiddo can handle. I have a daughter that juggles an unbelievably crazy schedule, and has for several years. I generally don't even try to describe it to people because it seems so outrageous. But she does fine. Maybe your student would be fine too.

[chiguirre]

Could you self study for CLEP exams in composition and American history? You'll have to check each CC's policies about what exams they accept but those are very likely to be acceptable. The advantage of CLEP is that you can take them anytime at the college testing center. You could study for just one at a time and take it when your ds is ready. Am Hist is broken down into 2 exams. They also have a world history sequence you might enjoy. You can also retake an exam if you don't get a qualifying score the first time and they are not usually reported on college apps so they're lower risk than having an AP class without a score.

[MorningGlory]

I don't think AP Chem will take your son 2 hours a day. My son took it last year (along with AP Eng Lang at PAH), and I am positive that he never spent more than an hour a day on the class (if that)...with the possible exception of days he did labs. He found the course to be "thorough" but not particularly difficult. 

 

AP Eng Lang did take him at least an hour a day...but not 2 hours. My son is an extremely fast reader but a slower writer. He thought this class was much more difficult than the chem course, but it was probably the most valuable course he has taken in high school (as far as developing skills he will use in life). 

 

I don't know anything about the APUSH course; my son chose to do all history courses at home.

 

So yes, I definitely think the three AP courses are doable...provided your son's DE schedule is accommodating (as in T/Th days, maybe). Does your son really need the elective via DE? Could he take an elective course at home? 

[anne1456]

I'd lean towards having him self study for one or two of the AP classes (probably APUSH, maybe another). Get a syllabus approved and you can put it on his transcript and have him take the AP test, but he will have more flexibility. Then he can adjust his workload in that class around the other classes, college applications, and what you have going on. Unless he really needs outside accountability I think 3 online and 3 DE classes is pushing it.

[Luckymama]

Obviously I don't know about PAHS AP classes since dd has done all but one AP with me at home. She has not regularly spent 2 hours on each/an AP class! The only times that happens is when she is either researching or writing papers since she still huffs and puffs about writing :rolleyes:

 

I have designed the classes so there is no busy work (create a poster/meme/cartoon, fill-in-the-blank review sheets-----I have seen so many of these and similar assignments on syllabi!). Dd is a very fast reader with (usually) great retention.

 

I think your biggest challenge might be switching from semester-length to year-long classes! You two have a certain rhythm going now :)

 

Check the syllabi of the proposed courses carefully. Can you view a sample week? What types of assignments are given? Watching a short video or two is a more efficient use of time than watching five. Is there a class discussion board? Great for interactions but a time sink if multiple daily posts are required. Are the assignments written day-by-day or are they all due at Friday at 5, for example?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Wouldn't it be so much easier if the answer to most things weren't "it depends on the student"...  ;)

 

Then, just to add insult to injury, there are many questions to answer...

 

Could it be done?

Could it be done while maintaining physical, mental, and emotional health? And life balance?

 

Should it be done?

Is this the Goldilocks placement? Is it too hard, too easy, or just right? (Or, as is sometimes the case, is this the best option even those it's not perfect?)

Is there a valid reason for it to be done?

Do the pros outweigh the cons?

 

What would the student gain? What would the student be giving up to do this class? 

 

Every student is different, but given the schedule you've proposed, the main concern for my student would be that there might not be enough time for large amounts of intense input. I'm torn about online classes... in some ways they are amazing and wonderful, but in some ways they just aren't. Even short, productive, beneficial tasks can accumulate to the degree that they crowd out activities that need more sustained attention. I also wonder if having many of these activities contributes to shorter attention spans...  

 

I've noticed that since my dd rearranged her schedule this semester, which resulted in having fewer online classes, she actually seems to be spending more time absorbing meaningful input. (AKA reading.)   There does seem to be an affection for video clips and lots of responding to posts in online classes. I wouldn't want to do away with those entirely... I do think they have value and have a place. My concern is when they become a significant means of input and output. (I don't know specifically about the classes you are considering. Maybe that wouldn't even be a concern with those classes.)

 

Given your son's history, I think the schedule is certainly possible. Whether or not it's the best plan is anyone's guess. You would know better than I would, for sure. It seems to me that you keep your finger on the pulse of your child. You also keep an eye on drop dates. Given your attention to these vital details, I think it would be reasonable to give it a whirl. 

 

One last thought...it's only a year. Even if it's not ideal, but it does what it needs to do (gets the credits and gets him to college), maybe that's good enough. Sometimes good enough just happens to also be best. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

No BTDT experience.  This is very hard to answer.  I guess I'd be worried about burning my kid out so soon.  But hey some kids can handle that no problem.  I get the impression with some of these courses that it's not about more complex work, but just more work period.  Which is kinda dumb, but that's another discussion altogether.

 

 

[quark]

Thank you all so much. I'm glad to have asked instead of stewing over this on my own in my own anxious head. Nothing is set in stone and I am brainstorming. I'll try to answer every post without going into too much detail for now (rushing off to class).

 

Gr8lander, he currently takes 4 classes a semester. His heaviest semesters look like this:

Calculus 2

Calc-based physics 1

C++ programming

Music (band)

(all DE sample from last spring)

 

Hons Linear Algebra & Differential Equations

Calculus 3

US Government

Music (band)

(all DE sample from this spring and the first math is at the said public ivy)

 

We continued to unschool lit and history (about 0.25 credits each carried over form previous years). ECs are some fun classes here and there, and not always every week. He volunteers every weekend for service project (not a lot of hours but he is consistent and trustworthy and has gained a good reputation with them). Was active with the CC's honor society but he couldn't do much this semester due to crazy commuting.

 

Anne, no problem with workload. What is quite tiring is the commute this semester. Plus, the fact that I now work part time outside the home (but I could switch to home based as an option although might not be able to consistently oversee a self designed AP course, plus he does a lot better with external structure).

 

He LOVES electives at the CC.

 

He skipped a lab science this year ("11th grade").

 

Chiguirre, CLEP is not accepted by the unis he has his eye on. At least I don't think so. And I've mentioned CLEP as an option...he doesn't want to CLEP out.

 

My thoughts regarding schedule (hope formatting comes out okay)

 

FALL SPRING

AP Lit AP Lit

APUSH APUSH

AP Chem AP Chem

Japanese at CC Japanese at CC

Math Music

 

OR, after thinking a little this morning about what you guys have said,

 

FALL SPRING

AP Lit AP Lit

APUSH APUSH

Lab Science at CC Math

Japanese at CC Japanese at CC

 

Add: Music outside of CC

 

Lab science and Japanese DE classes are usually 2x a week.

 

Thank you so much for the very thoughtful replies. Would love thoughts on scheduling above (sorry, have to run now).

Edited March 8, 2016 by quark

[JoanHomeEd]

Replying to your first post:

Not knowing your son, there is no way for me to give you very specific suggestions, so I’m going to do TMI :) , hopefully it is somehow beneficial.

11th grade: 3 APs (2 PAH, 1 self-study, all 5s), Theory of Numbers (DE). Theoretical CS/Algo/Discrete Math (summer class) +... 

More TMI: Kid is very used to self-study APs. Kid’s opinion is that PAH AP Lit requires less time than APUSH, but AP Lit needs more analysis.  

 

Edited to correct summer thingy (wrong yr!!! :) )

ETA: It is fairly important to choose PAH teachers that fit.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by JoanHomeEd

[quark]

 

...I’m going to do TMI :) , hopefully it is somehow beneficial.

11th grade: 3 APs (2 PAH, 1 self-study, all 5s), Theory of Numbers (DE). Theoretical CS/Algo/Discrete Math (summer

More TMI: Kid is very used to self-study APs. Kid’s opinion is that PAH AP Lit requires less time than APUSH, but AP Lit needs more analysis...

 

ETA: It is fairly important to choose PAH teachers that fit.

Very helpful Joan, thank you!! I told him what you said about AP Lit. He is very happy to hear that.

 

We are thinking of Mrs Serbicki who has already said yes despite his age (he likes her course description) and Mrs Richman for APUSH (haven't applied yet).

 

He will most likely apply to a few UCs (one app, two essays) and maybe, but a small maybe, 2 private schools.

[quark]

No BTDT experience. This is very hard to answer. I guess I'd be worried about burning my kid out so soon. But hey some kids can handle that no problem. I get the impression with some of these courses that it's not about more complex work, but just more work period. Which is kinda dumb, but that's another discussion altogether.

I hear you about burn out and the work. Staying at the CC for everything now that he has 2 years of it has been more about tedious work than challenge but the electives and lab science have been worth it.

[quark]

I don't think AP Chem will take your son 2 hours a day. My son took it last year (along with AP Eng Lang at PAH), and I am positive that he never spent more than an hour a day on the class (if that)...with the possible exception of days he did labs. He found the course to be "thorough" but not particularly difficult.

 

AP Eng Lang did take him at least an hour a day...but not 2 hours. My son is an extremely fast reader but a slower writer. He thought this class was much more difficult than the chem course, but it was probably the most valuable course he has taken in high school (as far as developing skills he will use in life).

 

I don't know anything about the APUSH course; my son chose to do all history courses at home.

 

So yes, I definitely think the three AP courses are doable...provided your son's DE schedule is accommodating (as in T/Th days, maybe). Does your son really need the elective via DE? Could he take an elective course at home?

Sorry on my phone with fat fingers. :)

 

Thank you for the time feedback. He wants the elective. He has a lot of electives and probably wont need this one but it is good for his psyche (music improvisation). I really appreciate how you saw the T and Th flexibility. I forgot to mention that in my OP.

Edited March 8, 2016 by quark

[quark]

Luckymama and WMA, my phone won't let me multiquote. Thank you both...you know us so well. :) Those questions are very helpful for me to double check before we buy.

 

I wish I could see into the future. The semester schedule works so well for us but so much depends on the move too. If he takes CC at the new place he might not enjoy the level of priority registration he has now as an established honors continuing student and therefore another factor to think about regarding lab science and popular humanities like US history.

[quark]

Another thought...based on post#9, and subjects I have mentioned, do you have ideas on how we could juggle the schedule or replace the APs (other than own syllabi/self study). The English, US history, FL and lab science are the only subjects he has left for subject requirement (CA a-g).

 

If something else occurs to you please feel free to suggest. Would also love to know your DC's junior and senior year line-ups if willing to share.

[GoodGrief]

I really like the idea of taking the audit option for US History. I see that Dan Burns is offering that. It would make the course more self-paced, and busywork could be cut out if necessary. We did that for World History during my daughter's sophomore year and it worked out well.

 

I know with the UC requirements you have some additional considerations to take into account too. Ugh, this can all get so complicated! Hang in there!

 

Is a summer DE class a possibility, to spread things out a bit?

 

My daughter's Junior schedule:

 

Summer: DE Calc 2 (5 week intensive) We did this to free up the schedule for SAT and PSAT prep going into the fall. We knew National Merit was a strong possibility for her.

 

Fall:  Mandarin (tutor, 2x week, easily cancelled if necessary), Orchestra (single class enrollment at high school), US History (nothing special, lol), AP English Lang (PAHS), AP Music Theory (PAHS). AP Biology (PAHS)

 

Spring: (as above, but add in DE Calc 3, done through the local college as an online course, so no class meetings. More flexible.)

 

Senior schedule:

 

Fall: DE Mandarin, Orchestra (single class enrollment at high school), Alaska History (at home), Economics (Thinkwell's "college" course), World Literature (requirement of our charter homeschool program, that in retrospect was a mistake since she had already done AP English Lit AND English Lang; done at home), AP Computer Science (PAHS), AP Statistics (PAHS)

 

Spring: as above, but change DE Mandarin to Mandarin with tutor (university canceled 2nd semester class); take out Alaska History, and add Public Speaking (Thinkwell course)

 

Again, the college app stuff senior year can be terribly time consuming, so you do want to allow for that. I had originally understood that your son will be a senior, though I see now that is not the case. :-)

 

 

[Emerald Stoker]

Quark, I don't really know how things work in the US, so maybe this is a silly idea...but if you wanted to stick with semester-based scheduling, could you do online university courses instead of online AP ones?

 

I am thinking of something like this, for instance (a US history course): http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/hist/hist235.php

Or these two literature courses: http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/engl/engl211.php & http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/engl/engl212.php

 

I think most of these courses are self-paced, so one could fit it into the time frame that worked best for the individual student.

 

I don't know if that will help...but I hope it does!

 

Editing to add some chemistry links, too:

http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/chem/chem217.php & http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/chem/chem218.htm

Edited March 8, 2016 by Emerald Stoker

[quark]

Again, the college app stuff senior year can be terribly time consuming, so you do want to allow for that. I had originally understood that your son will be a senior, though I see now that is not the case. :-)

 

Thank you!! So helpful to see what others have done. Actually it could be his "senior" year. He wants it to be and his dad and I think it can happen. He's very ready. I think I worry because of the move. About things we are used to being disrupted. About losing priority status at a new CC. About doing something (AP) we hadn't planned to do prior to this sudden twist re moving 500+ miles away. But maybe it won't be so bad. As I read more replies and PMs I am starting to realize we could still make it work because we won't have the very time consuming commute if we take the AP plan.

 

The UC application is once to many UCs. He will need time for the 2 essays but not tons more. If his dad thinks we can afford the private colleges (due to income bracket he probably won't qualify for any aid but we will still try) then we'll spend time on those two. Otherwise, it will only be UCs and possibly, a respected CSU. He has done his SAT and a subject test. Might take 2-3 more subject tests in summer, still thinking about that.

 

Thanks again!

 

ETA: about summer...he is hoping to be admitted into a math summer camp which will take 6 weeks and overlap with DE schedule. I also want to give him the time for his first loves...reading and math. :001_wub: This spring semester has taken some time away from that and I want to see him all cuddled up in his blanket reading or brainstorming math in his journals again. :001_wub:

 

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by quark

[quark]

Quark, I don't really know how things work in the US, so maybe this is a silly idea...but if you wanted to stick with semester-based scheduling, could you do online university courses instead of online AP ones?

 

I am thinking of something like this, for instance (a US history course): http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/hist/hist235.php

Or these two literature courses: http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/engl/engl211.php & http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/engl/engl212.php

 

I think most of these courses are self-paced, so one could fit it into the time frame that worked best for the individual student.

 

I don't know if that will help...but I hope it does!

 

Editing to add some chemistry links, too:

http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/chem/chem217.php & http://www.athabascau.ca/syllabi/chem/chem218.htm

 

I've always loved your suggestions and the thoughtfulness you put into suggesting them, Emerald Stoker. I will take a look at these for sure! Thank you so much!

 

[Dmmetler]

My first thought is that if your DS wants to do it, he'll be able to do it. He's handled some really, really demanding loads in the past, and he's ready to move on for real-which means that he's motivated to jump through the hoops to make it happen.

 

My second is "Yikes, that's a lot!".

 

I think I'd be inclined to try it, but keep a close eye on add/drop periods and whether a class is too much busywork for him and would be better served by self-study. I suspect that he really doesn't need some of the "intro to college level writing" stuff that is often bundled into AP classes for the FRQs, for example.  Just because most high school seniors need it doesn't mean your son does at this point in time.

 

Good luck whatever you do.

[quark]

My first thought is that if your DS wants to do it, he'll be able to do it. He's handled some really, really demanding loads in the past, and he's ready to move on for real-which means that he's motivated to jump through the hoops to make it happen.

 

My second is "Yikes, that's a lot!".

 

I think I'd be inclined to try it, but keep a close eye on add/drop periods and whether a class is too much busywork for him and would be better served by self-study. I suspect that he really doesn't need some of the "intro to college level writing" stuff that is often bundled into AP classes for the FRQs, for example.  Just because most high school seniors need it doesn't mean your son does at this point in time.

 

Good luck whatever you do.

 

Thank you. Wish I could have liked this 2 or 3x.

 

The a lot is so true. But it's so hard to say. Sometimes when I think it is too much, he makes another leap that makes it just right and loves the challenge and I feel so lucky we had the foresight to think ahead. Other times, we quickly dial back but the risk now is that if he starts an AP class and wants to drop, it might be too late to add a DE class. Lots to think about.

 

I really appreciate the understanding and the good luck! :001_smile: