Dmmetler Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 It's become really obvious this week that DD has a major case of imposter syndrome going on, where she devalues the stuff she's good at and basically feels like a house of cards ready to topple at any moment. I'm really tempted to assign her to work through this MOOC as part of school this Spring. Has anyone done it, or does anyone have experience with something else that might be useful? Books for kids tend to fall flat with her (and whike I'm guessing she'd benefit from a therapist or someone to talk to, I think she'd see that as a sign that she's broken, and it would make her feel even less confident). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in SA Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Sounds like it may be typical age-related self doubt??? If so, a bit of additional responsibility could be a good thing, particularly if she has some involvement in the initial decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 I expect it's age related and normal-but turned up to 11 because she's dealing with situations that most kids her age simply don't deal with (she's one of the featured speakers for a conservation event in March, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Might just be personality. I often feel like I'm not good at stuff no matter how well I do with it. No clue why that is though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) I discovered that instead of using resources that very obviously remind him of his high level, we should use high quality resources that remind him to step back and relax. This gives him the balance he needs. Although the MOOC sounds great I think it won't work for my guy. I have started using graphic novels written at a higher level, lots more books from favorite authors, more cuddle time with our pet, community service, dedicated board game sessions 3 or 4x a week and so on to help center him. For my guy, using a MOOC targeted at PhD students isn't the healthiest option when he is doubting himself, although it might be perfect for some other feeling e.g. intense boredom. Good luck! (Edited for clarity/ typos) Edited December 27, 2015 by quark 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolate-chip chooky Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) One thing I've noticed with my daughter (9) is that she spirals downward when her social needs are not being met. This happened recently when her sister was very busy with uni exams and they spent less time together chatting or watching movies. This spiralling includes self-doubt, self-criticism, perfectionism etc in both personal and cognitive realms, and can get quite challenging and upsetting. I've also wondered about the need for therapy and I feel the same as you, dmmetler. I'm sure my daughter would feel like there's something else 'wrong' with her at a time when she's already focussing on all the self-perceived 'wrongs'. I think I remember you writing recently, dmmetler, that your daughter has had social issues recently. I wonder if she's similar in this way to my daughter. If they are suddenly not feeling liked, valued, or even just acknowledged in a social sense, this can impact their whole self-concept, leading to very skewed views of themself. I feel for you both and I hope things improve soon. Edited December 27, 2015 by chocolate-chip chooky 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 She's had a tough social semester, and a really tough social Christmas. She simply isn't "teen"enough to be accepted by the teens, unless they need someone to do their assignment for them. She likes the younger kids, but they're not "peers". She hasn't gotten as much field time in this fall, and that is something she misses, and a lot of her grad student friends are struggling seriously with their dissertations and research (which is one reason why the MOOC appeals-I could potentially paint it as understanding what her friends are dealing with, but hopefully she'd pick up a few coping strategies as well). Honestly, this break she's sounded like a grad student, trying to explain why their research is important when they don't necessarily believe it anymore, and why they're not graduating this semester yet again. In some respects having such a great social fit this summer has backfired-she was so happy and fit in so well, and now she realizes what she doesn't have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 https://www.edx.org/course/becoming-resilient-person-science-stress-uwashingtonx-ecfs311x-0#! What about this one? It avoids the word PhD in the title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Ditto everything quark and chocolate-chip chooky said above (based only on my experience; YMMV, of course). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) :grouphug: If it helps any DS10 and my hubby has that kind of process at these ages. DS11 takes after me. I was in an all girls gifted program in middle school. At least half goes through similar issues. I have one classmate who needed suicidal counseling :( but she got the help she needed :) If you have imposter syndrome growing up or know classmates who had BTDT, what have helped. I have not BTDT but seeing my classmates been through it helped. ETA: I do think the media here sends mixed messages to girls. Edited December 27, 2015 by Arcadia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolate-chip chooky Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I don't know your daughter (honestly wish I did, though - she sounds like a seriously cool kid) so I can only offer examples of similar stuff with my daughter and hope that it helps in some way. With my daughter, if she gets all down on herself about anything academic (why do my experiments never work? Why am I so bad at maths? I hate my handwriting. I'm bored with ... I'm bad at -fill in the blank- ...) it is genuinely not about these things at all. I find that in these situations there's a stressor somewhere else in her life and it gets reflected in everything, including attitudes towards academics and particularly attitudes towards herself, because she's generally feeling down on herself. So, I guess for you, the question is whether your daughter is genuinely stressed about her studies/research (in which case the MOOC sounds great) or if she's stressed about a lack of friends right now, which makes her feel overall a bit lousy and it's reflecting in her studies and attitudes. She may not even consciously realise that the friend issue is impacting on her overall attitudes so much. By the way, we use the term 'friends' quite loosely around here. We ignore age altogether. Anyone who listens, chats without condescension, takes her (big) ideas seriously and makes her laugh - this counts as social interaction for her. Her tank gets filled and she's all positive and productive again, in all areas. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 I expect the social is a big part of it, but is also probably the hardest to manage without moving-and maybe even then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellojwolford Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Imposter syndrome is something that many of my friends and I battled as we pursued higher education in sciences. Perhaps it was because we were young women? I even remember being asked in med school interviews how I expected to be a doctor when I was bound to have children that I would need to care for! The old men's club made us all feel out of place. But we were at a disadvantage from the beginning in that we were perfectionists in an unhealthy sense and had always defined ourselves by our past successes. It didn't take much for us to feel that these successes had been accidental or given to us because we were "cute ". Much later I realized that the old men's club did not define themselves by their success stories, but simply by the fact that they had done enough work to get them into their position of leadership. Focusing on the work put in and not on the success that comes out can really help the imposter syndrome. I felt greatly helped by a book by Carol Dweck called Mindset. i initially read the book to help my DS who showed perfectionistic tendencies like myself. Perhaps it could help your DD? Or it might just help to show her how much work she has done-- not how many awards she has won, but how many pieces of paper she has scribbled her ideas on and how many hours she has put into her ideas. That is what makes her great and deserving of opportunities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm919 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I still feel like any day now, someone is going to figure out I'm just not that smart, I just have lucked out here and there. It's an unhealthy way of thinking but it's a hard habit to kick. It is really so so common. I think there is a list of quotes out there of successful women saying what frauds they are, how they get up in the morning thinking they just can't do it today, it's just impossible, everyone will find out. What helps is that my husband and I both have terrible cases of imposter syndrome. We can tell each other that we are such frauds and it ends up being something we can laugh about. The human mind is crazy and twisted though. I can both know about imposter syndrome, and still have it. Sigh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenwolf Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) Have you seen this post http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/226124/Re_Less_gifted_girls_than_boys.html#Post226124 ? Edited December 28, 2015 by Steppenwolf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Have you seen this post http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/226124/Re_Less_gifted_girls_than_boys.html#Post226124 ? I read that and I see that happening locally at any academic oriented competition. The asian girls are the ones who get the most encouragement from parents and school teachers. The girls from european countries are heavily encouraged too. 4H and sports competitions however tend to swing the other way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 :grouphug: was thinking about this more 1) could you wait out until after new year's day? Kids tend to be in a different frame of mind socially from pre Christmas to just after New Year. 2) I heard postgrad takes longer in US than where I am from. It took hubby less than 3 years to get his PhD from bachelors in engineering under a compressed option where they do not get an interim MEng. Wondering whether seeing how long her friends doing postgrad is taking to graduate may or may not be a downer for your daughter. 3) Is your daughter a friends person or a environment person? As in does she need friends more or need a conducive environment more? My kids are happy if they are anywhere with hands on or a good debate, the humans doesn't matter to them as long as there are humans to observe. For us, it meant moving anywhere with a tech hub and a city vibe would make them happy which is why downtown Seattle is in our possible/workable list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Arcadia-I think you have something. It's a tough time of year, and she's shut off pretty heavily from the environments she prefers. There just isn't much field work happening in November-Feb here, although this year there have been more animals active than normal since it's so mild, and the lab shut down about at Thanksgiving due to final exams and lab practicals, and really won't get going again except for a few grad students with ongoing projects until Jan. There's no animal encounter events happening because it's too cold to take out the animals (and the snakes are brumating).Going to FL helps-but then she's stuck with family and it points out just how different she is from other kids her age. And she does have several friends who are at the point where they really, really just want to be done with their PhDs-and this year's weather is kind of throwing a monkey wrench into it. Two years of really cold winters followed by a year that fall has stretched into December is likely to cause some interesting data blips-right at the time they need to be able to draw conclusions. And a lot of them are dealing with family stress, too-because a lot of people don't understand spending 6-7 years in grad school to study lungless salamanders or snake fungal disease. I think she's kind of shifting-it may be a pre-teen girl thing. Friends are becoming more and more important to her, while previously she was happy as long as she had someone who "got it". Now she really, really wants peers. I think that's why the idea of the early college type programs or specialized high schools where there are a group of kids "like her" appeals so much. She wants both. Plus reptiles and amphibians. I suspect that Berkeley, where she could be really involved in the environmental advocacy side of things (and where there's a lot of work going on on habitat restoration) would be about the ideal "vibe" for her-and also have many more options to find "kids like her". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) I suspect that Berkeley, where she could be really involved in the environmental advocacy side of things (and where there's a lot of work going on on habitat restoration) would be about the ideal "vibe" for her-and also have many more options to find "kids like her".I think your daughter would be able to blend right in with the Berkeley/East Bay crowd. These is lots of salt marsh restoration and other restoration in that area. Weather is good year round for animal research. Tech jobs are easier to find too in east bay than in Reno. Comically what is likely to draw your daughter to UCB is what is repelling my boys from it. Besides the carsick route up Tilden Regional Park to UCB which has fantastic views. Hubby's phd was in nanotech so totally weather independent but silicon waffle and lab equipment dependent. ETA: Santa Cruzï¼Monterey area is nice too, as is UCSC. Highway 17 is another carsick route for my kids. My kids love to watch people surfing. Despite their tendency to puke, they enjoy the scenic views at both locations. Edited December 30, 2015 by Arcadia 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 We have deliberately calmed down academics here due to similar issues. It is really hard for me, but I see it helping. Ds needs to *feel* like a kid. Granted his friends are mainly in their earrly 20's and looking at grad schools, but going ice skating, going to zoo lights and on his first date, reading rather significant amounts of drivel, plsying with the dog. Thise are taking more and more presidence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsutsie Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Just a quick note: Ha! My son will be 11 in a month. I wondered if he had some serious emotional issues, but now it seems like it is just normal for this age. He is desperate for intellectual friends. After reading this thread, I feel somewhat relieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Are you guys considering Berkeley? Let me know if you have questions. I've lived in Berkeley/Oakland as a college student and as an adult. It's a special place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 I'm guessing it would be too big of a COL change. DH's job is portable, but it's tied to Atlanta cost of living. Where we are now, that's great-we are in an area where almost everything costs less than Atlanta. Berkeley would be quite a bit more. But I still think it would be a great fit for DD in many ways. I'm wondering if maybe part of the problem is that being accepted to take college classes for real makes it more "real" and scary to her? We already planned to not start until Fall, but maybe we should wait longer? I don't think it would be a problem to do so. Although I don't have a clue what I'd do for science next year otherwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 COL in the Bay Area is high and only getting worse. It isn't why we left, but it may be why we won't return... Is it possible to reduce the stress around taking a college class? Surely all her field study friends have intro biology under their belts. Could they tell her that she can handle it? Would she believe them? In my experience, intro biology isn't really that difficult of a class. Lots of reading comprehension and memorization, not very quantitative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 She has worked through Campbell's Bio 9th edition, so should have a good foundation (and she's done selected labs from several different undergrad courses as well, chosen more to teach lab techniques). Her mentor thinks she's likely to find it mostly review, and that the learning will come at the college pace and format. But if she doesn't feel ready, I don't know if it matters that the adults think she is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 But if she doesn't feel ready, I don't know if it matters that the adults think she is. It is an emotional issue most times. My kids cello teacher thought both kids were ready for performing at a low key recital after a few months of learning. DS11 was totally at ease like he was born to the stage. DS10 panic, pull through and now is still having residue stage fright during lessons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 She has worked through Campbell's Bio 9th edition, so should have a good foundation (and she's done selected labs from several different undergrad courses as well, chosen more to teach lab techniques). Her mentor thinks she's likely to find it mostly review, and that the learning will come at the college pace and format. But if she doesn't feel ready, I don't know if it matters that the adults think she is. She's already gone through Campbell's? College biology should be afraid of her, not the other way around! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 She's already gone through Campbell's? College biology should be afraid of her, not the other way around! I agree. My son and I were similarly nervous before he started the CC classes. Now I wish we had done it sooner. I think it might take only one class for her to feel less afraid. Maybe one half of a class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 I am wondering whether her past standardised scores favoring languages has cause some self doubt. For some kids it doesn't matter, they go for what they like. My language scores sometimes win my science scores (biology) by a good margin but I still wanted engineering. For some people I knew in college, they went for what subject they consistently score the best. So hard to say if it might be a factor. For what its worth DS11 says his languages aren't great but what he meant was relative to his maths. The gap is like 95th percentile to 99th percentile or narrower most times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Is there anyway to demonstrate to her that she is already working at a college level? I remember when I was about her age a family friend had me take a test from her college composition class. I was shocked that I got a passing grade. I had just assumed college was so much "more" somehow. Could you find a college biology exam for her as a pretest? Let her see how much she already knows? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 I am wondering whether her past standardised scores favoring languages has cause some self doubt. For some kids it doesn't matter, they go for what they like. My language scores sometimes win my science scores (biology) by a good margin but I still wanted engineering. For some people I knew in college, they went for what subject they consistently score the best. So hard to say if it might be a factor. For what its worth DS11 says his languages aren't great but what he meant was relative to his maths. The gap is like 95th percentile to 99th percentile or narrower most times. I think that's a big part. This is the first time that her math hasn't been at or above her verbal, and that's throwing her. Science and math are very linked in her mind, so I think it's making her feel less secure in her abilities overall. And she's never seen reading as a big deal. My guess is that when we get the expanded score report, that may clarify things (Based on what she said, my guess is that she got the questions she did correct-but just didn't finish enough of them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 My sons realized from attending public school, before nclb, that academics is similar to video games in that you can go as far as your abilities, interest, and resources take you. Some choose to learn at their own pace, some dont. Their friends are chosen based on shared interest, which may be nonacademic. My son that accelerated enough to be treated like an outlier in his school kept away from isolation via online classes. My son that didnt accelerate academically thru the school accelerated in an interest area thru his youth group. Both met plenty of uber accelerated kids thru youth groups drawing from a large region such as scouting and orchestra. By high school, they realized a meaningful, fulfilled life was a choice. No one was holding them to an age/grade lockstep, except a few public school staff members. My son and I had a really great conversation based on this. I read the comment to him and it really resonated. Thanks! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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