apples and pears Q and what is your favorite spelling for 2-3rd grade?

[sunshineslp]

I have seen a lot of you use this for spelling.  i finish up LoE Foundations for my 2nd grader very soon and am looking for the next spelling program.  Is Apples and Pears one that you can just "jump in to"?  do you need to start at the beginning or just jump into whichever level is best?  I haven't found much info on their website for placement.  is it very teacher intensive?  LoE is intensive, so I was wondering how similar they are.  How long are lessons? 

 

I have considered moving to LoE Essentials but not sure about the investment, if I could find something just as good and cheaper, it sure would be nice.  and something he could do a tad more independently would also be nice:) 

 

thought?

[zarabellesmom]

Apples and Pears is not at all independent, so if that's what you are looking for you should definitely consider something else.  I've used LoE Foundations and Essentials.  I really liked them both and so did my kids. Unfortunately, Essentials didn't work for my oldest.  Neither did AAS, which has a similar rule based approach so not really a surprise.  We had some success with Sequential Spelling but she saw her sister doing Apples and Pears (after LoE Foundations) and wanted to try it. It's been the best thing for her. She's almost done with C and we will move on to D in just a couple of weeks.

 

We spend about 10 minutes a day doing it. My 2nd grader does one page a day and my 5th grader does two. It's got a lot of writing...a lot.  A complete lesson takes about 20 minutes and is 4 pages(ish). 

 

On their website you can look inside each book at ALL of the pages. For placement, open up the Teacher's Manual on their website and look for the placement/mastery test that occurs approximately every ten lessons. Follow the directions to administer the test and keep testing until your student doesn't pass. When they don't pass, you know where to start. It's easy as that. It's not a pretty program. I personally like all the color of LoE foundations and the games and cards.  I love the spelling tiles from AAS, but those things seemed to be wasted on my students. One or two black and white pages a day and both my kids are better spellers.

[alisoncooks]

A&P does require teacher involvement, but I wouldn't call it teacher intensive.   I can easily zone out (or surf online  :blushing: ) while DDs are doing A&P.  They just need me to read words or dictate sentences.  But not too much thinking involved, KWIM?

 

We started at the beginning, but have been using the placement tests to move ahead entire sections when the work seemed too easy.  There is a lot of writing with A&P.  My 2nd grader is about a 3rd of the way through the first level, but mostly because she can only do about 1/2 a lesson in a sitting.

[zarabellesmom]

A&P does require teacher involvement, but I wouldn't call it teacher intensive.   I can easily zone out (or surf online  :blushing: ) while DDs are doing A&P.  They just need me to read words or dictate sentences.  But not too much thinking involved, KWIM?

 

We started at the beginning, but have been using the placement tests to move ahead entire sections when the work seemed too easy.  There is a lot of writing with A&P.  My 2nd grader is about a 3rd of the way through the first level, but mostly because she can only do about 1/2 a lesson in a sitting.

 

Oh my gosh! I thought I was the only one who did this!!!

 

Also yes, we jump ahead when things seem too easy by testing out of levels. My daughter skipped 20 lessons today by passing two mastery tests. She was sooooo happy!

Edited December 10, 2015 by ZaraBellesMom

[sunshineslp]

That's almost a deal breaker... The writing. Ok, that's good to know!

 

Hm. Maybe I'll just stick with essentials. It's sooooo expensive though. $100 and that's for only half a year[emoji15] I'm looking at other similar rules based programs too, such as spelling by sound and structure.

 

 

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[Haiku]

We loved Apples and Pears. It was the only thing that worked for my dyslexic son. Other responders have answered your questions, and I agree with them. I just wanted to put in a plug for A&P.

[sunshineslp]

Thanks Tara [emoji3] is there a way to limit the writing without diluting the program?

 

 

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[kirstenhill]

Hand raised in confession...I read the forums and facebook while dictating A&P sentences to DS8.  Sometimes I lose track of what I am doing though I DS is like, "Mom? Mom! Ready for the next sentence..."

 

My DS8's progression went Foundations in K (when it was the Beta test...he was already beyond what became level A so we basically did what became B and C).  D wasn't out yet at that point. Then we did about half of the original edition of Essentials in 1st grade (I already owned it from when I did it with DD).  It was okay but he was kind of young for it. Then we did sentences and lists from Spelling Plus/Dictation Resource Book when he was in 2nd grade, but he wasn't really retaining.  He actually asked for a workbook, so I decided to try A&P on a whim and he really likes it.   I bring some of our knowledge of rules and phonograms into it, and point out the rules/phonograms we are practicing even if A&P isn't specifically pointing them out.

 

I am liking this so much that I think I will start DS6 on A&P when he finishes foundations D (which I think will be in March or April).  He is already beyond Foundations in terms of what he can read anyway, but he really likes it so we will finish out.   Then I'll see where he places in A&P.

 

You definitely can jump into A&P where ever your kid places on the placement test.  Technically DS8 placed into the last 10 lessons of A (see, he really hadn't retained a lot from what we did in 1st and 2nd!), but he was close enough to B that I didn't want to get another workbook and teacher book just to do 10 lessons! I think that decision has worked out okay.  There is so much review and practice that we haven't noticed any gap from not doing those ten lessons).

 

We spend 15-20 minutes, 4x per week.  That gets us through 2 lessons per week, generally speaking...that is more than enough to get through the whole book in a year since there are I think 59 lessons in B.  He definitely doesn't use his best handwriting on those pages, but they get done and I do make him re-do if they aren't at least legible.  ;-)

[kirstenhill]

Thanks Tara [emoji3] is there a way to limit the writing without diluting the program?

 

 

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I would just go through it a bit slower and try and work up to more writing stamina.  There are some times where the same word/sentence are repeated 2x or 3x or more in the same lesson, and I do (sometimes) let my DS skip a second or third repetition of the same word/sentence.   There are also a few times where the student writes the morphemes both separately AND together as a whole word...i.e. writing work, ed, worked.  I might let him write just the whole word instead of the separate parts as well as long as he says them out loud separately first.  So far, so good...he has passed every "test" that occurs once every 10 levels.

[Haiku]

Thanks Tara [emoji3] is there a way to limit the writing without diluting the program?

 

Ok, I went back and read the thread more closely. I don't really think that A&P has any more writing than any other spelling programs we used. You write words, and sometimes you just write roots, prefixes, and suffixes, and some days you write several sentences. There are days where you might need to write 5+ sentences to get the required 25 points (this is just one exercise that shows up periodically in the book), but you can work around that if it's too much by splitting the lesson into two days.

 

My son was incredibly writing phobic when we started on A&P. He still couldn't even form all his letters correctly (not for lack of trying on my part--he was 9!) and he didn't space letters and words consistently or write "on the line." Using the suggestions from the publishers of A&P, I set the timer for 10 minutes and when it rang, we stopped. If ds was in the middle of a word, he finished it, but other than that, we stopped. Gradually (over the course of more than a year), we worked up to 20 minutes a day, and by the last book, we were doing 2 pages a day regardless of how long it took. It was just a gradual building up.

 

I don't see how you could do A&P if you tried to cut out any of the writing. It's a program created for kids with dyslexia and other learning issues, so the focus is on connecting auditory and written phonemes. It has a lot of repetition in writing these things so that they stick for kids whose brains aren't really sticky in that way.

 

My suggestion is that if your child is not dyslexic and if you want to limit the amount of writing, A&P is not really for you. (Not to say that A&P wouldn't work fine for a non-dyslexic kid, but if your kid doesn't have any language-based delays AND you want to limit writing, then A&P has the wrong focus. Does that make sense?)

[sunshineslp]

Thanks for all the helpful tips ladies!! Well, none of my kids have any learning disabilities (that in aware of) and yes the writing is more than I'd like. I'll continue looking but I don't know about essentials. I like LoE's approach but I can't justify the huge price tag. My son will have completed LoE foundations A-D. So just trying to decide what might be a next step. He still needs help. He's not a natural speller and he does like rules.

 

 

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[ElizabethB]

Spelling Plus!

[sunshineslp]

Does spelling plus teach by spelling rules? This is one I've not heard of before...

 

 

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[ElizabethB]

Does spelling plus teach by spelling rules? This is one I've not heard of before...

 

 

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Yes, teaches rules, arranged by rule and pattern, most common 1,000 words, K - 6 spelling in one book. Super easy, can add in dictation book if you need, my kids do fine with just lists and rules.

[AspenSong]

My kids did Foundations A - C and then started Essentials, which really became too rule/phonogram intensive for us without enough actual practice of the spelling words.  So we switched to Apples & Pears and so far it's been great.  I don't feel like it's any more writing than Essentials was and we can get a lesson done in 10-15 minutes.  I do have to read the words and sentences for them, but I, too, do other little things while they're writing.  I think the constant reinforcement of writing the words out is cementing them in my children's minds, much more than was happening in Essentials.  I am glad we learned all the phonograms and many of the rules, and I do point them out where applicable in A & P, so I don't regret going through all of that.

[ElizabethB]

Here is the book on Amazon, she also has a website with more info, make sure to include her middle initial to find it!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Spelling-Plus-Words-toward-Success/dp/187947820X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449799771&sr=8-1&keywords=spelling+plus+susan+anthony

[...................]

1.  YOu can totally just jump in.

2.  You do have to take the placement tests and there are directions for how to do so, found in the book.  However, since your ds is only in 2nd grade, you could use the whole series, and just start from the beginning. It teaches slightly differently than LOE.  It teaches by Morphemes, not syllables. For my dyslexic daughter, this has been very helpful and has made all the difference.  But, because of the transition, you may need to start from the beginning with your son.

3. A&P is not advanced.  It is for dyslexics.  A second grader would take four years to complete it and it would only leave him at barely a fifth grade spelling level in the end.  Maybe sixth.  So, if your son is good at spelling and isn't struggling, it would make more sense to move to AAS.  With AAS he can somewhat move at his own pace, and isn't tied to the workbook and writing, at a particular pace.  (Now, before anyone argues with me, yes my 11 year old will have completed A&P in two years not four, but that is because of her age.  It's extremely writing intensive, so a second grader would have to do a half lesson per day.  Some days have four full pages of writing!)

4.  Now, that said, I am a big fan of A&P.  The longer we use it, the more clear improvement and confidence I see in my dd's spelling OUTSIDE of the spelling book. I am seeing crossover in every subject and now she says she can even see words in her head!  Correctly spelled! Before A&P she actually couldn't even see any word in her head, ever...not ever.  Not any word and sometimes not even single letters.  So, some synapses in her brain are really clicking.

5. A&P is BORING BORING BORING.  There is almost nothing fun, no color, very long lessons and a LOT of writing and it's even MORE boring to teach than it is to learn from because the student is at least being challenged, but the mom is sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting....Most people would not end up sticking with A&P if their student wasn't seriously challenged in spelling, because of the huge time and patience commitment.  

6.  We have had to edit out some negativity and overuse of alcoholic sentences and words....but it was pretty easy to do.  Just be aware.  

 

Hope this helps!

[...................]

Oh and you SHOULD NOT limit the writing in A&P.  the extreme repetition, and kinesthetic approach are key. They say, listen, and write.  If you didn't want to do all that writing, and your son isn't dyslexic or challenged just use AAS..

[sunshineslp]

I'm interested in AAS, I just don't want to buy the whole kit. I need to look into if I can just buy bare essentials and be ok.

 

Sounds like A&P wouldn't be a good fit so thank you!:)

 

 

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Edited December 11, 2015 by sunshineslp

[sunshineslp]

Elizabeth- are you talking about spelling power? That's what it sounds like.

 

 

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[Haiku]

We didn't find A&P boring. We still laugh over funny sentences like "My mother is old, but she is still attractive." We found it kind-of quirky and fun. My son didn't LOVE it because he knew spelling wasn't his strong suit and he doesn't like to make mistakes, and he was ready to be done when we finished it, but I didn't find A&P especially boring or time-consuming. But I've also never been a fan of the "hand the kid a workbook with lists of spelling words" approach, so maybe that colors my view.

[ElizabethB]

Elizabeth- are you talking about spelling power? That's what it sounds like.

 

 

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No, I don't like Spelling Power as much. It is OK, but not as streamlined as Spelling Plus. It is by Susan C. Anthony. You can get it new from her website or CBD, or resold as new through Amazon. Edited December 11, 2015 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

Here is her website, she has sample pages there.

 

http://www.susancanthony.com/bk/sp.html

[FO4UR]

Thanks Tara [emoji3] is there a way to limit the writing without diluting the program?

 

 

Agreeing with Tara.  You cannot cut the writing out of A&P, but you can break up the lessons so you are doing less each day.  For a young one, Book A would take the whole year, I'm guessing, at about 1 page per day.

 

If you want rules & independence, I think the R&S wb is what you are looking for.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Another A and P person here.  :-)  I'm surprised actually that it is considered writing intensive.  I'm not sure how to do spelling with LESS writing, with the exception perhaps of AAS and the tiles.  

 

In AP level A lessons 1-30 we did between a half and full lesson each day.  Somewhere after lesson 30, the text size in the workbook decreases and there is more to write in any given lesson.  At that point, we switched to doing one workbook page per day.  For  a while, that meant half a lesson, now it's a third of a lesson.  My 3rd grader could probably move faster, but I've combined him with my 1st grader so we stick to one page a day.  When she is in 2nd, I'll probably move them both up to two pages a day again.  

 

At this rate, one ten minute lesson involves copying (approximately) 1 sentence 2-3 times, 12ish words 2-3 times, and then some other activity- word search, puzzle, etc.  

 

As for jumping in, you are not supposed to jump into level D, but any other level can be jumped into.  I've heard many switch out before level D since level D starts to contain a lot more British spelling patterns.  

[Haiku]

I've heard the complaint about British spelling patterns, but I just taught my son the American ones instead. It wasn't an issue for us.

[kirstenhill]

Another A and P person here. :-) I'm surprised actually that it is considered writing intensive. I'm not sure how to do spelling with LESS writing, with the exception perhaps of AAS and the tiles.

 

Ok, this is a bit of a tangent, but I think another way to do spelling is typing-intensive. My DD does nearly all her spelling practice now in Spelling City...Partly because it is independent and partly because I think typing is what she will realistically do more of in the future so I don't mind her developing better finger memory for spelling than writing memory. Spelling has never been my strongest suit, and now after much practice with typing over the years, sometimes I can spell a word correctly if I type it out, but get stuck if I try to write it on paper.

[FO4UR]

Ok, this is a bit of a tangent, but I think another way to do spelling is typing-intensive. My DD does nearly all her spelling practice now in Spelling City...Partly because it is independent and partly because I think typing is what she will realistically do more of in the future so I don't mind her developing better finger memory for spelling than writing memory. Spelling has never been my strongest suit, and now after much practice with typing over the years, sometimes I can spell a word correctly if I type it out, but get stuck if I try to write it on paper.

 

 

A tangent on your tangent...

 

I'm toying around with reinforcing spelling by requiring my ds to type up a dictation or narration, edit for accuracy, print and then copy it by hand.  We shall see how this works out.

 

I do like Spelling City, but I would hesitate to do only Spelling City.  If you have a fairly natural speller who is doing plenty of copywork otherwise, that is a nice, quick & dirty way to just get spelling done.

[MerryAtHope]

I'm interested in AAS, I just don't want to buy the whole kit. I need to look into if I can just buy bare essentials and be ok.

 

Sounds like A&P wouldn't be a good fit so thank you! :)

 

 

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If you don't want to use the letter tiles, you can use underlining to show when two or more letters are working together as a team. Here's an FAQ question from the site on that. If you skip the student packet, you would have to devise another way of customizing the review. The cards make it easy to focus on what you need to review and what's mastered, plus a lot of them provide visual reinforcement--just depends on what your student needs I guess. Several levels have other materials (charts, booklets, word banks...). The student packets were essential for my kids. The tiles made it fun and were worthwhile here too, but if your child doesn't like manipulatives you could skip them. My kids did eventually grow beyond them (since writing is the final goal anyway). Hope you can find a way that works for you!

[...................]

Another A and P person here.  :-)  I'm surprised actually that it is considered writing intensive.  I'm not sure how to do spelling with LESS writing, with the exception perhaps of AAS and the tiles.  

 

In AP level A lessons 1-30 we did between a half and full lesson each day.  Somewhere after lesson 30, the text size in the workbook decreases and there is more to write in any given lesson.  At that point, we switched to doing one workbook page per day.  For  a while, that meant half a lesson, now it's a third of a lesson.  My 3rd grader could probably move faster, but I've combined him with my 1st grader so we stick to one page a day.  When she is in 2nd, I'll probably move them both up to two pages a day again.  

 

At this rate, one ten minute lesson involves copying (approximately) 1 sentence 2-3 times, 12ish words 2-3 times, and then some other activity- word search, puzzle, etc.  

 

As for jumping in, you are not supposed to jump into level D, but any other level can be jumped into.  I've heard many switch out before level D since level D starts to contain a lot more British spelling patterns.  

In level C, there are four pages a day, with much smaller print size.  Each lesson takes at least half an hour.  Compared to every other spelling program i have seen and used it is definitely more writing intensive. However, that's what we love about it..it works!

[Soror]

In level C, there are four pages a day, with much smaller print size.  Each lesson takes at least half an hour.  Compared to every other spelling program i have seen and used it is definitely more writing intensive. However, that's what we love about it..it works!

My son is pushing 30 minutes just to do 2 pages in C, he is just not very fast at writing(which is why he types composition) so although I had hoped to get through C and D this year it is just not happening.

Edited December 11, 2015 by soror