What is all this about students being required to take "Pre-AP" courses of the same subject before the course?

[...................]

AND I am convinced, the whole pre-AP thing is RIDICULOUS.  Either you have a kid who is mature enough, and smart enough to take college level courses in high school or you don't.  I am truly convinced that its just a way to spread the course over two years in order to funnel more kids into AP, in order to make money and brag about how many kids take AP courses.  

[...................]

The fact is, for me, my son has a goal, and he is practical enough to understand how to reach it.  He wants to enroll in Laurel SPrings and use them for approved A-G courses and Honor Society.  Then, if he decides he is sick of that, he can still enroll in Community College Junior Year. He feels that the practical way is best and he is ready to start working on his future.  However, I will not push him to take every AP course they offer.  I'll let him and the counselors decide.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

The fact is, for me, my son has a goal, and he is practical enough to understand how to reach it. He wants to enroll in Laurel SPrings and use them for approved A-G courses and Honor Society. Then, if he decides he is sick of that, he can still enroll in Community College Junior Year. He feels that the practical way is best and he is ready to start working on his future. However, I will not push him to take every AP course they offer. I'll let him and the counselors decide.

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly - do you mean the most practical for him or the most practical in a more general sense. For many people, what you describe is the least practical route, so I'm presuming you are referring to his situation alone.

 

Some musings, not directed at OP or anyone in particular...

 

Threads like this are a good reminder to always remember context, context, context and YMMV. Just a short while ago I was anti AP, mostly because of posts I had read on this board. After further research and contemplation, I decided to enroll my dd in a couple online AP classes. I'm so glad I did. It is vital not to lose sight of the teen in front of us and the opportunities available to that teen.

 

We are still newbie green when it comes to APs, but thus far I cannot relate to some of what I'm seeing in this thread. As pps have mentioned, much depends on the individual AP class. I think the unique combination of teacher, classmates, and student will lead to dramatic differences in AP experiences.

 

Thus far we have experienced teachers that appear to be passionate about their subjects and care about the students' knowledge of the subject beyond the AP exam. Is the exam mentioned? Of course. To be fair, though, it's also mentioned that focusing too much on the test will possibly cause the student's score to suffer and that the focus should be on learning the material and THINKING about the material.

 

We're seeing students that appear to be enthusiastic about the class, that are turning in thoughtful work promptly, and that are eager to engage with other students about the material. My dd finds it energizing.

 

Is there stress? Yes. It would be remiss not to mention that. This is the first time my dd is being held accountable by multiple teachers because it's the first year we've outsourced several classes. If she wasn't a bit stressed, I would be dropping classes left and right. Part of what I'm paying for is for her to experience a certain level of stress because that promotes growth. There's a balance, though. Too much stress and I'd be dropping classes for the opposite reason...

 

Multiple APs with the student not being able to sleep or socialize? Something is not right in that situation. That's not unique to AP, though. The same can happen with DE. It can even happen with regular high school classes and lots of intensive extra-curriculars.

 

Looking at another student through the same lens we view are own will often lead to a distorted view. There are so many right ways to do the high school years. One of the strengths of homeschooling is being able to tailor the high school experience to the student.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

The problem is that this makes the AP course even less of a college course than it already is.  

 

A huge difference between AP coursework and real college courses is that AP teachers continue to use high school techniques with (supposedly) college level material.  So instead of issuing grades using only the scores of a midterm and a final and maybe a few other assignments and assuming the students will study on their own, they do the high school thing of giving tons of assignments, all for a grade, which ends up taking the place of independent studying.  This not only deprives students of the experience of learning to study independently, it also is makes it one bad grade less of a tragedy.  Now add to that a lack of college pacing (doing the AP course over two years instead of one), and all you really have is an honors class that lasts a really long time.

 

Doesn't this depend on which AP class and which college class you are comparing? Even some college courses don't look like college courses. Lots of assignments and opportunities for bonus points are not unique to the high school years. At some schools, in some classes, this occurs at the college level as well.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

It's a bit ironic that APs are disparaged for both too many chances to improve grades for the class and, alternatively, for everything boiling down to one test - the AP exam. 

 

So perhaps AP courses are blessed (or cursed) with an opportunity to experience both. 

 

Speaking of stress and tests...I'm reminded of dear Anne and her classmates studying for and stressing about exams in the Anne of Green Gables books. The exams weren't even APs...  ;)

[wapiti]

Hmm... I am under the impression that "Pre-AP" is a specific, College Board designation for an honors high school course.  Some public schools have more requirements for allowing kids to sign up for AP, including being on a track toward AP that includes "Pre-AP" courses.  I assume it is simply another way for the CB to make money and/or control programming.

 

(My dd's private high school does not have any "Pre-AP" designated courses.  There are honors courses, of course.  The school offers 20 APs.)

[swimmermom3]

The problem is that this makes the AP course even less of a college course than it already is.  

 

A huge difference between AP coursework and real college courses is that AP teachers continue to use high school techniques with (supposedly) college level material.  So instead of issuing grades using only the scores of a midterm and a final and maybe a few other assignments and assuming the students will study on their own, they do the high school thing of giving tons of assignments, all for a grade, which ends up taking the place of independent studying.  This not only deprives students of the experience of learning to study independently, it also is makes it one bad grade less of a tragedy.  Now add to that a lack of college pacing (doing the AP course over two years instead of one), and all you really have is an honors class that lasts a really long time.

 

Ds went into AP Biology at our public high school with only Life Science in middle school. It was a tough year and the teacher taught it exactly as you outlined above for a college course. I think the kids could pick up a few extra points for completing study guides, but nothing was required outside of unit exams and semester finals. On a teacher review site, students said the teacher's tests were harder than the AP exam.  My son had to work his duff off and while grades and exam score were satisfactory, not stellar, he loved the class and said he learned a ton from it.

 

For that class, a solid chemistry background was probably more important than a previous biology class.

 

[swimmermom3]

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly - do you mean the most practical for him or the most practical in a more general sense. For many people, what you describe is the least practical route, so I'm presuming you are referring to his situation alone.

 

Some musings, not directed at OP or anyone in particular...

 

Threads like this are a good reminder to always remember context, context, context and YMMV. Just a short while ago I was anti AP, mostly because of posts I had read on this board. After further research and contemplation, I decided to enroll my dd in a couple online AP classes. I'm so glad I did. It is vital not to lose sight of the teen in front of us and the opportunities available to that teen.

 

We are still newbie green when it comes to APs, but thus far I cannot relate to some of what I'm seeing in this thread. As pps have mentioned, much depends on the individual AP class. I think the unique combination of teacher, classmates, and student will lead to dramatic differences in AP experiences.

 

Thus far we have experienced teachers that appear to be passionate about their subjects and care about the students' knowledge of the subject beyond the AP exam. Is the exam mentioned? Of course. To be fair, though, it's also mentioned that focusing too much on the test will possibly cause the student's score to suffer and that the focus should be on learning the material and THINKING about the material.

 

We're seeing students that appear to be enthusiastic about the class, that are turning in thoughtful work promptly, and that are eager to engage with other students about the material. My dd finds it energizing.

 

Is there stress? Yes. It would be remiss not to mention that. This is the first time my dd is being held accountable by multiple teachers because it's the first year we've outsourced several classes. If she wasn't a bit stressed, I would be dropping classes left and right. Part of what I'm paying for is for her to experience a certain level of stress because that promotes growth. There's a balance, though. Too much stress and I'd be dropping classes for the opposite reason...

 

Multiple APs with the student not being able to sleep or socialize? Something is not right in that situation. That's not unique to AP, though. The same can happen with DE. It can even happen with regular high school classes and lots of intensive extra-curriculars.

 

Looking at another student through the same lens we view are own will often lead to a distorted view. There are so many right ways to do the high school years. One of the strengths of homeschooling is being able to tailor the high school experience to the student.

 

I really loved this post.

 

The choice for which type of "challenge" really comes down to knowing your student. For some, enrolling in a CC course or a university course makes sense, both financially and for the time-commitment.

 

From the one semester my son spent at the public high school, he quickly acquired the "do the minimum" to get the grade mindset. If I had sent him off to our state university or CC the following year for Writing 121, he would have honed that attitude. Yes, he would be getting the "college experience," but for the most part, he would be with students who could care less about the class.

 

Instead of taking that Writing 121 class at 15, he took an AP English Language class and was with students for the most part, were interested in excelling. The caliber of teaching and of students gave ds a whole new level or standard of educational challenge to consider. He will have to be in some of those large survey classes where no one cares during his college career, but he will be older, more mature, and maybe approach differently than he would have at 15 (fingers crossed).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[...................]

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly - do you mean the most practical for him or the most practical in a more general sense. For many people, what you describe is the least practical route, so I'm presuming you are referring to his situation alone.

 

Some musings, not directed at OP or anyone in particular...

 

Threads like this are a good reminder to always remember context, context, context and YMMV. Just a short while ago I was anti AP, mostly because of posts I had read on this board. After further research and contemplation, I decided to enroll my dd in a couple online AP classes. I'm so glad I did. It is vital not to lose sight of the teen in front of us and the opportunities available to that teen.

 

We are still newbie green when it comes to APs, but thus far I cannot relate to some of what I'm seeing in this thread. As pps have mentioned, much depends on the individual AP class. I think the unique combination of teacher, classmates, and student will lead to dramatic differences in AP experiences.

 

Thus far we have experienced teachers that appear to be passionate about their subjects and care about the students' knowledge of the subject beyond the AP exam. Is the exam mentioned? Of course. To be fair, though, it's also mentioned that focusing too much on the test will possibly cause the student's score to suffer and that the focus should be on learning the material and THINKING about the material.

 

We're seeing students that appear to be enthusiastic about the class, that are turning in thoughtful work promptly, and that are eager to engage with other students about the material. My dd finds it energizing.

 

Is there stress? Yes. It would be remiss not to mention that. This is the first time my dd is being held accountable by multiple teachers because it's the first year we've outsourced several classes. If she wasn't a bit stressed, I would be dropping classes left and right. Part of what I'm paying for is for her to experience a certain level of stress because that promotes growth. There's a balance, though. Too much stress and I'd be dropping classes for the opposite reason...

 

Multiple APs with the student not being able to sleep or socialize? Something is not right in that situation. That's not unique to AP, though. The same can happen with DE. It can even happen with regular high school classes and lots of intensive extra-curriculars.

 

Looking at another student through the same lens we view are own will often lead to a distorted view. There are so many right ways to do the high school years. One of the strengths of homeschooling is being able to tailor the high school experience to the student.

1.  Yes, it's what he sees as most practical for him. 

 

2.  No one is saying that one would allow one's view of AP to take away the options and choices for one's child...

 

3.  But students to narrow themselves to 10 "pre-AP" courses in middle school and 13 AP courses in high school...if your student takes a few AP courses that they are really passionate about and enjoy, and are ready for the depth and challenge and you find a teacher passionate about the subject...makes sense to me.  It's just the idea of making AP into a funneled system where your goal is to take as many as possible *and* your middle school years are spent funneling into that...

[Chrysalis Academy]

1.  Yes, it's what he sees as most practical for him. 

 

2.  No one is saying that one would allow one's view of AP to take away the options and choices for one's child...

 

3.  But students to narrow themselves to 10 "pre-AP" courses in middle school and 13 AP courses in high school...if your student takes a few AP courses that they are really passionate about and enjoy, and are ready for the depth and challenge and you find a teacher passionate about the subject...makes sense to me.  It's just the idea of making AP into a funneled system where your goal is to take as many as possible *and* your middle school years are spent funneling into that...

 

I think that's the part that really bothers me, too.  I don't like the idea that education - or childhood, for that matter - always has to be about preparing for the next level.  

[Woodland Mist Academy]

1.  Yes, it's what he sees as most practical for him. 

 

2.  No one is saying that one would allow one's view of AP to take away the options and choices for one's child...

 

3.  But students to narrow themselves to 10 "pre-AP" courses in middle school and 13 AP courses in high school...if your student takes a few AP courses that they are really passionate about and enjoy, and are ready for the depth and challenge and you find a teacher passionate about the subject...makes sense to me.  It's just the idea of making AP into a funneled system where your goal is to take as many as possible *and* your middle school years are spent funneling into that...

 

 Many would argue that 10 "pre-AP" in middle school and 13 AP in high school is too broad, as opposed to too narrow. It really depends on one's perspective.

 

Doing regular high school classes in middle school and AP classes in high school might have been better path for some subjects than the path we took, although I'll never know for sure. I do know that if I were to homeschool another child, I would seriously consider it. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I think that's the part that really bothers me, too.  I don't like the idea that education - or childhood, for that matter - always has to be about preparing for the next level.  

 

I guess it doesn't feel that way to me. It feels more like finding the right level at each stage, which in most cases would lead to a natural progression. 

[wapiti]

3.  But students to narrow themselves to 10 "pre-AP" courses in middle school and 13 AP courses in high school...if your student takes a few AP courses that they are really passionate about and enjoy, and are ready for the depth and challenge and you find a teacher passionate about the subject...makes sense to me.  It's just the idea of making AP into a funneled system where your goal is to take as many as possible *and* your middle school years are spent funneling into that...

 

I used to twitch a little when I heard the term "Pre-AP" (kinda like when I hear a college student is "pre-law" as there is no such thing) until I understood that the term is trademarked and really just means honors track.  In theory, I suppose a Pre-AP should offer a standardized level of preparation, for better or for worse.  

 

Some schools are restrictive in their AP registration policies, requiring Pre-APs as prerequisites to registration for AP courses.  Restrictive tracking is the only downside I can see (as hurting late bloomers), and that varies widely by district and high school.

 

AP courses are a separate issue.  For a long time, there has been emphasis on AP accumulation for application to selective and highly-selective colleges; this is not new.  In part, this is related to demonstrating to highly-selective college admissions that a student has taken the most rigorous courses available.  I don't know for sure, but my personal guess - hope, LOL - based on things I've heard recently is that the emphasis on accumulating sheer numbers of APs may be dissipating a bit, such that a student reaching for top schools would still want some APs (or DE), though somewhat fewer well-placed ones may do, whereas not long ago, slightly greater numbers may have been necessary.  This would be along the lines of the shift in recent years away from the well-rounded student to the student who is interesting and talented in specific areas within a well-rounded class.

 

For students not shooting for competitive schools, APs don't matter for college admission but may be helpful for placing out of prerequisite courses in college.

 

FWIW, I am not aware of any "funneling" (i.e. tracking) of students at the middle school level beyond the same math and foreign language offerings that have long been available - I'm curious as to what those PreAP courses would be.  I'm not under the impression that there are significant numbers of middle schools offering high-school-level english, social studies or science - are there?  I doubt anything has really changed; if there is such a thing as "PreAP English 8" (I made that up), that would be the same as "8th Grade Honors English" (which I took >30 yrs ago).

 

ETA, here:  http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/preap/220773.html At a glance, PreAP appears to involve teacher training for college prep and/or the use of SpringBoard, the curriculum for sale (*gag*) by the College Board.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I guess it doesn't feel that way to me. It feels more like finding the right level at each stage, which in most cases would lead to a natural progression. 

 

I'm glad it feels that way for you - it means you are doing something right! And meeting your student's needs. Which is great.

 

For me, this is how it fees: I've never liked the idea of having middle school be all about preparing for high school - taking high school level versions of the same classes they will take in high school, so that they can take college level courses in high school, so that . . . what? They can get into a good college? They can skip courses in college?  My personal choice for us has been to use the middle school years as a chance to explore science, broadly, and to try and cover some of the topics that don't fit into the biology-chemistry-physics "buckets" that seems to be the norm for high school.  

 

There isn't a right or wrong answer, right? People are just expressing the situation they understand, and how it feels to them.  Kids, parents, family constellation, goals, and constraints are different for each of us, so we're all going to navigate this path differently. It's good to see how others are doing it.

[FaithManor]

Both Bio and Chem are normal courses all students take at the local ps where I work.  If they do well in those, they can take our DE version (the equivalent of AP).  One does not start those courses without having had Bio and Chem before.  The DE version counts on students knowing the basics already.

 

And middle son's college counts on students having had the DE or AP version before their Bio 101 course.

 

Things change over the years, that's true, but I also had to take regular Bio before taking AP Bio way back in the mid '80s.

 

Calc and Physics do not have pre-req similar classes at my school.

 

Euro History requires a World History class before it.  I don't think we offer anything for American History.

 

English DE only requires good grades through Honors English in 11th grade.

Yep! When my brother was in high school they didn't have AP sciences but the equivalents were "advanced bio", "advanced chem", and "advanced physics" or in some schools "honors" was the title. Since those courses were tougher, students could then opt to test out of the 100 class equivalent in college either by CLEP or departmental placement exam.

 

The transcript was fine. Colleges know that except for the most passionately prepared student, one needs an introductory course of biology, chemistry, or physics before taking the college levels and especially when we are talking about kids in the 13-15 year old range who have only general science and physical science from 7th and 8th grade. It counts as two biology, two chemistry, or two physics and not one.

 

The local high school is very rapidly dropping AP's in favor of DE so it will be the same. High school introductory bio or chem in 9th grade and 10th grade, followed by DE, and high school physics in 11th, and DE physics for 12th.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm glad it feels that way for you - it means you are doing something right! And meeting your student's needs. Which is great.

 

For me, this is how it fees: I've never liked the idea of having middle school be all about preparing for high school - taking high school level versions of the same classes they will take in high school, so that they can take college level courses in high school, so that . . . what? They can get into a good college? They can skip courses in college?  My personal choice for us has been to use the middle school years as a chance to explore science, broadly, and to try and cover some of the topics that don't fit into the biology-chemistry-physics "buckets" that seems to be the norm for high school.  

 

There isn't a right or wrong answer, right? People are just expressing the situation they understand, and how it feels to them.  Kids, parents, family constellation, goals, and constraints are different for each of us, so we're all going to navigate this path differently. It's good to see how others are doing it.

 

Absolutely! No right or wrong! Apologies if I appeared to imply otherwise... I was actually just trying to do what you mention, give a view which was different than some of what I've seen. Sorry if I muddled the attempt! :sad:  I think I even mentioned in my post how wonderful it is we can all take different paths. 

 

To elaborate further on my comment... For us, when we did what you described -- exploring science broadly and studying topics not fitting into biology/chemistry/physics -- we hit walls repeatedly because she didn't have enough biology/chemistry/physics. It was a catch 22. Not sure what the right answer would have been or what we should have done to make it better. I do know that once we hit those three harder during school, her free time science became more enjoyable. For us they weren't buckets, they were foundations. Once again, no right or wrong! Just sharing perspectives.   :)

 

For the record: My dd isn't planning to take all AP classes. In some subjects we've found other classes that are far better suited for her goals. Our main objective is not getting college credit or being able to direct entry into higher level courses at college. Our goal is finding the right fit for right now.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I used to twitch a little when I heard the term "Pre-AP" (kinda like when I hear a college student is "pre-law" as there is no such thing) until I understood that the term is trademarked and really just means honors track.  In theory, I suppose a Pre-AP should offer a standardized level of preparation, for better or for worse.  

 

Some schools are restrictive in their AP registration policies, requiring Pre-APs as prerequisites to registration for AP courses.  Restrictive tracking is the only downside I can see (as hurting late bloomers), and that varies widely by district and high school.

 

AP courses are a separate issue.  For a long time, there has been emphasis on AP accumulation for application to selective and highly-selective colleges; this is not new.  In part, this is related to demonstrating to highly-selective college admissions that a student has taken the most rigorous courses available.  I don't know for sure, but my personal guess - hope, LOL - based on things I've heard recently is that the emphasis on accumulating sheer numbers of APs may be dissipating a bit, such that a student reaching for top schools would still want some APs (or DE), though somewhat fewer well-placed ones may do, whereas not long ago, slightly greater numbers may have been necessary.  This would be along the lines of the shift in recent years away from the well-rounded student to the student who is interesting and talented in specific areas within a well-rounded class.

 

For students not shooting for competitive schools, APs don't matter for college admission but may be helpful for placing out of prerequisite courses in college.

 

FWIW, I am not aware of any "funneling" (i.e. tracking) of students at the middle school level beyond the same math and foreign language offerings that have long been available - I'm curious as to what those PreAP courses would be.  I'm not under the impression that there are significant numbers of middle schools offering high-school-level english, social studies or science - are there?  I doubt anything has really changed; if there is such a thing as "PreAP English 8" (I made that up), that would be the same as "8th Grade Honors English" (which I took >30 yrs ago).

 

ETA, here:  http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/preap/220773.html At a glance, PreAP appears to involve teacher training for college prep and/or the use of SpringBoard, the curriculum for sale (*gag*) by the College Board.

 

The impression I'm getting is the same as you have in the bolded. Although, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part as well...

 

 

[creekland]

I've never liked the idea of having middle school be all about preparing for high school - taking high school level versions of the same classes they will take in high school, so that they can take college level courses in high school, so that . . . what? They can get into a good college? They can skip courses in college?  My personal choice for us has been to use the middle school years as a chance to explore science, broadly, and to try and cover some of the topics that don't fit into the biology-chemistry-physics "buckets" that seems to be the norm for high school.  

 

There isn't a right or wrong answer, right? People are just expressing the situation they understand, and how it feels to them.  Kids, parents, family constellation, goals, and constraints are different for each of us, so we're all going to navigate this path differently. It's good to see how others are doing it.

 

Going along with the differences, many times it's the students wanting more in middle school.  It's not the parents pushing them.  

 

My middle son thrives on learning more - as much as he can - about many topics.  He took high school courses while in middle school because he wanted to - then used his high school years for cc or AP level classes - again - because he loved the depth.  He also branched out and took college level Microbio and Public Speaking.  He springboarded off that to a top research U and is thriving there very near the top of the top.  Not allowing him to do this at his pace would have been stifling to him - as would a lower level college (that didn't also offer higher level options like an Honors College).

 

My oldest and youngest were far more normal.  I'd even go so far as to say youngest was academically lazy in subjects that didn't interest him.  Pushing him would have caused burnout, but allowing him to be higher level in subjects that he loved (mainly Bio type classes) was perfect.

 

They were all good kids who had many peers and were/are loved by adults/teachers/college profs.

 

The beauty of homeschooling or having different levels in ps is that we can try to fit the kid to the path that fits them best.  A big human fallacy is putting one path or another higher on the ladder of success.  The best path is the one that fits.  Forcing the wrong student into the wrong path can cause massive issues in one form or another.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Absolutely! No right or wrong! Apologies if I appeared to imply otherwise... I was actually just trying to do what you mention, give a view which was different than some of what I've seen. Sorry if I muddled the attempt! :sad:  I think I even mentioned in my post how wonderful it is we can all take different paths. 

 

To elaborate further on my comment... For us, when we did what you described -- exploring science broadly and studying topics not fitting into biology/chemistry/physics -- we hit walls repeatedly because she didn't have enough biology/chemistry/physics. It was a catch 22. Not sure what the right answer would have been or what we should have done to make it better. I do know that once we hit those three harder during school, her free time science became more enjoyable. For us they weren't buckets, they were foundations. Once again, no right or wrong! Just sharing perspectives.   :)

 

 

Good point! I've run into that too.  Another difference is whether your kid is planning to specialize in the given area, right? If they know they are STEM-bound or humanities bound or languages bound or whatever, it can make sense to knock prerequisites out of the way in the middle grades so that they have time to go deeper and/or specialize. 

 

Now I have to apologize if I'm being cranky - I'm having a really stressful day/week/month.  I'm having a hard time keeping it all in perspective. Probably not a good time to be thinking about big picture long term plans!  :tongue_smilie:

[Arcadia]

For us, when we did what you described -- exploring science broadly and studying topics not fitting into biology/chemistry/physics -- we hit walls repeatedly because she didn't have enough biology/chemistry/physics. It was a catch 22.

String theory, quantum mechanics, mandelbrot's fractals are some examples of our catch 22 :)

 

Some kids just like to be 4th gear most of the time and would not settle for 3rd gear. If you (general) have kids who are Star Wars fans, they might tell you they like to be on hyperdrive mode (millennium falcon) most of the time. I can't slow down my oldest boy rate of devouring books even if I try to.

[daijobu]

 

Just a short while ago I was anti AP, mostly because of posts I had read on this board. After further research and contemplation, I decided to enroll my dd in a couple online AP classes. I'm so glad I did. 

 

Could you share what were the negatives of AP that you had read about, and what were the positives you discovered later that changed your mind?  

[...................]

^^  Just read through this thread.  :o)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Could you share what were the negatives of AP that you had read about, and what were the positives you discovered later that changed your mind?  

 

Negatives I had read about:

 

1.   Classes are too easy

2.   Classes are too hard

3.   Too much busy work

4.   Too many assignments and too many opportunities for bonus points

5.   Everything boils down to one test - the AP exam

6.   Teaching to the test

7.   Students don't really learn anything

8.   Extremely difficult to find test sites

9.   Problems with test sites before, during, or after exam

10. Many colleges won't accept them for credit

11. Colleges prefer dual enrollment

12. Students who go into higher level courses because of APs do poorly because they really didn't learn the material

13. etc, etc, etc

 

Eventually I realized that many of the negatives posts contradicted not only the positive posts I read, but they contradicted other negative posts. At that point I tried to clear my mind and research the exams, classes, test sites, and how some of the colleges dd is interested in viewed them. What I found was mostly positive, including the fact that all the colleges dd is currently interested in possibly attending view APs favorably.

 

Positives thus far: 

 

1. Enthusiastic, experienced teachers 

2. Students that engage with the material and with each other

3. Interesting texts

4. Challenge

5. Depth

 

We haven't dealt with text sites and the exam, yet.

I may sing a different tune in a few months, or weeks, or days.... ;)  Right now, though, it seems to be a good decision for us.

Obviously APs are not the only way to find the above, but they are one possible path.

 

Requisite disclaimer: The above post is in no way a guarantee of any kind, for any student. APs are not the right decision for everyone. Some people have terrible AP experiences.   :zombiechase:

 

As always, YMMV.   :)

[angela in ohio]

AP courses are a separate issue.  For a long time, there has been emphasis on AP accumulation for application to selective and highly-selective colleges; this is not new.  In part, this is related to demonstrating to highly-selective college admissions that a student has taken the most rigorous courses available.  I don't know for sure, but my personal guess - hope, LOL - based on things I've heard recently is that the emphasis on accumulating sheer numbers of APs may be dissipating a bit, such that a student reaching for top schools would still want some APs (or DE), though somewhat fewer well-placed ones may do, whereas not long ago, slightly greater numbers may have been necessary.  This would be along the lines of the shift in recent years away from the well-rounded student to the student who is interesting and talented in specific areas within a well-rounded class.

 

And I think, like the rounded vs. pointed conversation, it depends on the school. My older dd's school was still looking for breadth of AP/DE courses and test scores. Most of her classmates had maximum numbers of AP courses.  She was "well-rounded with a bit of a point" so we didn't worry much about that, though she had only a single AP course (Latin.)

 

For my second, a more "pointed" child, it has been interesting. We went to listen to UChicago talk at school near here, and he specifically said that they buck the trend to move toward pointed students, and they want well-rounded just the same as always.

 

So anyway, I think it really, really, really depends on the specific situation (like someone else said, context) more so than trends.

[daijobu]

 

ETA:

Is he interested in the USA Computing Olympiad?

http://usaco.org/index.php

 

Have you been involved in USACO?  What did you think of the experience?  

[Arcadia]

Have you been involved in USACO?

Not involved in USACO. I'm only aware of it because local tuition centers are coaching for that as well as the usual AMC8/10/12, AIME.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Have you been involved in USACO? What did you think of the experience?

[Kathy in Richmond]

USACO was a terrific addition to my son's high school experience. His PA Homeschooler AP CS teacher required participation as part of his class in grade 10, which gave ds an initial intro to the program and some beginner support. During his final two years of high school, he took off on his own (I was absolutely no help), & USACO formed the core of his CS studies those years.

 

Good points of the program: automatic grading of homework problems, a seemingly never-ending amount of new material at higher & higher challenge levels, monthly programming contests, and perfect prep for those tough CS algorithm courses in college. Good performance on the contests moves you up through different ranking levels, and some of the kids in the top gold level are chosen for the summer Olympiad training camp where the US team is chosen for international competition. I believe that making gold level helped ds with his college admissions. And, last but not least, the entire program is free of charge.

 

I can think of one negative, and it's that the programming puzzles in the homework can often be quite tough. Some of them stumped ds for a long while, which can slow down progress, and a lot of kids drop out at those times. Eventually Ds found some kind of online support forum, which helped. But kids definitely need to have patience and be willing to endure a certain amount of head-banging.

[Arcadia]

Eventually Ds found some kind of online support forum, which helped. But kids definitely need to have patience and be willing to endure a certain amount of head-banging.

That is a positive to me as a parent :) oldest is doing that for AoPS classes already.

[Targhee]

My high school had a course entitled Bio Science, which was a chemistry heavy bio course designed for kids planning to do AP Chen and AP Bio. Senior year was physics (or AP physics but there weren't enough kids with the math for AP physics to offer it when I was a senior).

 

I agree there are so many AP offerings you can't really do all the pre-req courses and then the AP courses. And some schools will give you credits for taking the test but still have you take the intro major courses in college.

 

For example, at my university there was Bio 110 (survey bio class, part of general requirements for graduation) and Bio 130 (for bio majors). Score a 3 or 4 on AP Bio test and get credit for Bio 110, score a 5 and get credit for Bio 130. I scored a 5, graduated with a major in zoology, great! Then I decided to do a secondary teacher education degree at another university in the same state - they said I would have to take their Bio 150 class (Bio for bio majors) because I hadn't taken the equivalent course and they didn't give AP credit for it, only the general bio class. I fought hard against that and in the end didn't have to take the course but it was a bit ridiculous.

 

So my opinion is that, especially if you homeschool, you should try dual enrollment if possible.