Input about Classical Conversations?

[Guest Connwess]

We are starting our 4th hear of homeschooling (3rd grade). We have focused mainly on reading and math up until this point. I have been looking at starting classical conversations, but the reviews I have read are divided sharply. It seems to be that one either loves or hates it. I was looking for some input from other moms that have used or are currently using it. What are your thoughts? I am new to the classical model. I like what I have read about it so far. Thanks ahead for any insight you can provide!

[momacacia]

We did it from the time oldest was about 7 until 9, doing all 3 cycles and MMing two cycles. I think your student is a good age to begin if you wanted to do all 3 Foundations cycles before middle school. She has used the material in the program, I'm glad we did it and I will use some, but not all of it, with later students during their grammar years presenting the memoery work material at home (lunchtimes, in the car) with the audio CD and some flip chart pages I have.

 

As we completed the first round of cycles, it just are up a lot of my time and I feel dd2 Jair wouldn't have been ready to start until next year. We're more established in our hs journey than we wheeler when I started CC with a 6/7yo and pre-pre-schooler whom one as trying a good childcare situation for during CC time. And we're going on more kids this year, too, so it would just not fit into our lives as a "co-op." We met some wonderful moms and friends for my oldest though and I appreciated the academic culture and peers she was surrounded with there. I'm not a huge fan of the CC is be all

and end all and we were considering Challenge, I'd look seriously at private school as well, but it served a purpose on our lives for a time.

[Guest Connwess]

Thanks! It helps to hear from someone who did it for a while and is out but still has positive things to say about it. It seems like all the reviews I have read are great for the people that are in it, but not so great for the people who have gotten out. It seems to get pretty expensive the further you get into it. Did you find you find a program you could do on your own just as easily that was less expensive for the later stages?

[Mrs Twain]

This year will be our third year in CC Foundations. It has been a fabulous addition to our homeschool curriculum, filling in the gaps that I had wanted to fill but was unable to accomplish prior to joining CC. All of my kids are memory masters

 

We have not done the Essentials or Challenge programs because they don't fit my goals for those areas. However, I know many families who have benefitted greatly from them.

 

I advise you to examine the CC programs and content carefully to discern whether or not they fit your goals. I also advise you to visit your local CC campus to meet and talk with the families. This will give you the best direction in terms of knowing whether CC is the right fit for you.

 

Unfortunately this forum has a fair number of contentious threads about CC. More than a few posts are written by people who have never attended CC but dislike it from a distance. Please keep this in mind when you read old threads. Regard most highly the posts which were written by people who have been part of CC.

[Coco_Clark]

I think CC can be an amazing resource for those that can afford it (it IS very expensive) and

 

A. Need confidence,

B. Need a community, and/or

C. Need support flushing out their "3 Rs" home learning

 

The communities in my area vary greatly in attitude, but most are tight knit, welcoming, and very supportive. For me, in part because I had to tutor to cover the expense, the work I had to put into it far exceeded the benefits. But I also have free options for homeschooling community, some areas do not. And I have the confidence to forge ahead alone. Ymmv.

[fourisenough]

We did CC Foundations & Essentials for 2 years with DD3. This year we'll modify Cycle 1 and do only the subjects that are most important to us at home. She did MM both years we were with a campus, and I feel like they were some of our best homeschooling years (but CC was just a small part of that success). She is academically accelerated and ready to move beyond the grammar stage, so we're doing that, rather than sticking with the community. I may choose to enroll DD4 at some point, but not now as a six-year old. For us, one time through each cycle at approximately 8-10 years of age is about right.

[momacacia]

I don't see CC as helping flush out the 3Rs at all. At the Foundations level those 3Rs would be very very weak if CC was what was relied on. CC was really a cherry on top. A friend of mine is in her 6th year (?) and really relies on it for her community as a hs mom.

 

I also wouldn't do it with something like Tapestry simultaneously (too much for us!). I also wouldn't like it as the framework for our history. We always did a different additional history program. One of the cycles lines up well with US history for one year. The other cycles just seem to whip through a lot of history at a time.

 

There can certainly be the sense that CC is the only game in town and "how could you do anything else." I know people who love Challenge and Essentials and those who dislike IEW so Essentials doesn't work for them. You do have to play be CC's rules and it's a big organization with a bit of bureaucracy but I didn't sense this much until I started having a student looking at dialectic level.

[cintinative]

To be honest I think what you get out of CC is going to depend a lot on the campus you join.  But really what you need to understand first is your own goals. If you want help "teaching" that is what CC is good for, but I agree--not for the 3 R's.  History facts, geography, a little science and math facts, yes. Presentation skills--yes.  But not reading and writing until you get to at least Essentials.  You need to remember that if you are not using CC as your core curriculum you will have to fit your core curriculum in the other four days a week. And you need to understand that this is a business structure that is looking very much to grow so there will be some pressure to tutor and/or switch to a new campus. Know yourself, know what you can handle, and pray for wisdom. 

 

My experience was that CC was not a social outlet for us. That had a lot to do with the campus and the people who participated then. Since then there has been a lot of turnover so I can't say it would be the same now. I just found it a lonely place and by the end of the year I was sure I could teach the material myself at home and save myself a lot of money. We opted for a different co-op that is more elective-based and that has been a good fit for us.

 

 

[AmyinMD]

I think CC can be an amazing resource for those that can afford it (it IS very expensive) and

 

A. Need confidence,

B. Need a community, and/or

C. Need support flushing out their "3 Rs" home learning

 

 

I really disagree with you on all 3 of these.  Foundations really doesn't help much with the 3 Rs.  Two of my kids did the full three year cycle and got a lot out of it but we definitely did our 3 Rs at home.  I had been homeschooling almost 10 years when we joined so it wasn't that I was lacking confidence in my ability to homeschool.   We were already a part of a different homeschool community at the time and my kids do lots (maybe too many) outside activities.  The community we've been a part of has been nice but since it is a program you have to pay for I have found that very few families stick with it long term.  The other group we are a part of has many more long time members I think in part because it's costs are minimal.  One of the downsides for CC for us my kids will make friends and then the family won't return the following year either because they find it too expensive or they have already completed the three cycles.  While CC pushes repeating the cycles I found I was kind of done with it after we'd been through all three cycles once.  I think it enhanced our homeschool studies and the kids enjoyed it.  I would never recommend anyone stretch to pay for it because it is a must have.  It is an extra that can add to your homeschool if you have the time for it.  My son has done memory master but I don't require it of my kids and I don't spend much time on the program outside of the actual class.   

 

I have a love/hate relationship with CC.  I like a lot about it but I also don't like how they market their program and the constant push to open new communities.  Our community had around 40 children last year so we were nowhere near full but still two people from that community opened new communities.  One of them only has eight children.  It makes absolutely no sense but with the CC model there is constant pressure to grow.  While I decided not to do Foundations this year our community only has two Foundations classes now because of the new communities being opened.  There wasn't a need for them but yet people felt to add communities they can't even fill.  

 

My teens have both been a part of the Challenge program which they have really enjoyed.  We give our kids the option to attend public high school but both my older two have picked Challenge instead although my 17 yo is doing other stuff this year.  They were both in very nice classes and they made a lot of friends there.  My 15 yo loves the Debate classes at Challenge which is a subject I couldn't do well at home.  I really dislike the Science though and I find it extremely weak.  We have had to supplement it in a major way and my younger children will not be doing the program because of my issues with the science.  Part of the reason my 17 yo isn't doing Challenge 3 is because the tutor teaching it really doesn't seem to know Chemistry.  She did try to find someone to come in and just teach the Chemistry but she didn't have any luck so I pulled my daughter out instead of spending money on Challenge and on a separate Chem class. 

[diaperjoys]

We gave serious consideration to CC, and also spent a semester using their materials and doing our own coop with another family. I also visited a couple campuses to get a feel for their community, and each campus did have a dramatically different feel. In the end, we decided that we didn't want to lose one school day each week to attend CC. We wanted a little more content and context for all the things being memorized, and felt the need to supplement nearly all the subjects "covered". By the time we pay for CC, do all the supplementation we wanted to do, and then lost a school day as well, we simply preferred to select our own materials and our own schedule. My kids would have all been in the Foundations class at the time. Now that they are older, it may be that we'll take another look at things and consider their Challenge classes. But for now, we love the flexibility we have in designing our own program each year.

[Coco_Clark]

Sorry if I was unclear. I meant that you are covering the three Rs at home, but need cc to flush out "extra" subjects to ADD to your three Rs.

[Squawky Acres]

If you have the time and the money, and live close to a well-run community, I think CC Foundations can be a fun extra.  I would not expect it to replace any of your regular curriculum, however.  We did a three-year cycle in the early elementary years, and enjoyed our time there.  It gave the children a nice big-picture overview of history, touched on some basic science concepts, gave them the opportunity to make weekly oral presentations, provided a few memorable art projects, and helped them learn English grammar definitions and skip counting songs.  They liked going to a "class" and having lunch and recess with other kids.  In fact, I think the packed lunch was the favorite (with little yogurt cups and small bags of junk food that I would never buy ordinarily).  Our community also had fun parties and gatherings, science fairs, and a garden work day that they enjoyed.

 

We are moving on now, and are now part of a more informal co-op based on SOTW, with additional art history, science, presentations and language work.  I am enjoying that flexibility now, but still appreciate the "foundation" CC provided in those early years.  

 

I think some of the strong negative feelings come from the way in which CC can be marketed -- almost like a MLM scheme.  Sometimes families can feel pressured and families new to classical education can be made to feel that they cannot do classical education without CC.  Not all communities market this way, of course, but it can come across that way.

[kbutton]

I haven't done CC, but I considered it. It didn't end up appealing to me. I won't say critical things since I didn't use it, but I couldn't really find an upside for us.

 

I look at any co-op, including CC and feel like I must know what it will do to our home life before I would join.

• Will it replace something I do at home or augment it? If it's supposed to replace it, will it be complete? If it's supposed to augment it, will my time spent on the co-op stuff be in line with that idea (in other words, will my homeschool revolved around the co-op, or will I be able to keep co-op in proportion to the work I want to do at home).
• If we do this co-op, will I have to make changes at home that I don't want to make? Will those changes be worth making? 
• What is the benefit I am seeking from co-op, and is there an easier/cheaper/more efficient way to get that benefit?

You get the idea. In the end, we opted to try a small co-op with families who want to do similar things. We've all agreed that homework and such would be minimal with most work being completed in co-op. Other people have totally different goals, and that's okay.

 

 

[TheAttachedMama]

We do CC at home, and it is great.

 

We decided (personally) that it wasn't worth the time or money for my family to join a community.   We would end up sacrificing a lot more than we would ever gain.  But I have lots of other resources for socialization in my community.  I don't have to pay for "fellowship" as they seem to indicate that you do on the CC webpage.   Plus, I don't personally need an outside person for accountability to do school.  Did you NEED (or want) someone looking over your shoulder to make sure you complete a math workbook by June 1st?  If so, you might want the typ of accountability a CC community provides.   If not, you may be just fine to do it on your own.   I may not 'complete' CC in a perfect 24 week schedule.  But we get it done at our own pace, and it actually feels a lot more restful and peaceful when I do it that way.   We get to savor the topics instead of rushing through them.   So the benefits didn't make it worth it for me to join a community.   That may not be the case for everyone.   

 

But even though I am a CC fan---I see a lot of flaws in the way it is set up.   You want to join a co-op?---well that requires volunteer hours/time.   You want to join a school?---well that requires tuition fees.   You want to join CC---well that requires BOTH volunteer hours and huge tuition fees.    I think it is sort of a racket to be honest with you.   First and foremost, CC is a business.  They are out there to make money.  This does not mean they are "bad"--it just means they are not doing this (solely) out of the goodness of their heart.  And they simply do not make as much money if you do it at home.  So they are financially motivated to discourage you from attempting it on your own.  So they publish a lot of propaganda trying to discourage you from trying it at home.   Many people are turned off by this propaganda--so that is why you will see some negative stuff written about CC.    But I am here to tell you---CC isn't "bad".   However---it isn't rocket science either.  You CAN (very easily) do it in the comfort of your own living room successfully. 

 

Plus, CC is not perfect.  Most people who have used CC for any length of time will probably agree with me.  (What curriculum is?)  So I enjoy the freedom of being able to take the parts that work for me--- and not being tied to the parts that don't.   You don't get that freedom in a community.   Example:  We want to study ancient history in first grade and read through Story of the World?   WELL...I don't have to start with Early modern history memory work just because every other CC member in my town is doing that.  I pick and choose memory work that aligns to what we are actually learning about in history and science.   I can add more if I find certain areas are incomplete or lacking.   I can skip the memory work that I find sort of "strange" or incorrect.   Basically, I can tweak things.   If I want to use something else for a particular subject (example for grammar we use the FLL lists and definitions)--I can modify things.   Basically, I get to make the program work for me...not the other way around.   It becomes a resource and a tool instead of dictating my schooling.  I like having the freedom to make my own schedule, choose what we are going to learn, things like that.   You give a lot of that up when you join a community. 

 

Another con--is there is a huge push to convert people into the CC way of life.   You WILL be encouraged to invite friends to open house and things like that.   That is part of the whole culture. :)   Again, that is because of financial motivation.   Campuses make money based on the number of people they can recruit.  There is also a big push to start new pyramids....er....I mean campuses.  Did I say pyramids?   Total Freudian typo.  Where did that come from? ;) 

 

SO---while we are CC fans overall---we haven't "drunk the kool-aid" completely.   I see flaws in the program (just like any program).  Plus, it does not (alone) make up a solid classical education in my humble opinion.  So it isn't worth letting it consume my life completely.  

 

[kristin0713]

This is our second year in CC and it has been a great fit for our family.  I have two in foundations (9yo and 7yo) and my 9yo is starting Essentials this year. 

 

Are there things I would change about CC?  Absolutely.  I think it should be a 4 year cycle, not 3 year cycle.  There is a lot of info crammed into those three years and I don't love how the history sequence is set up.  I think the program should be modified for 4yo's and 5yo's (pre-readers/writers).  It is expensive and it is sort of a racket like a PP said.  However, the benefits have made it worth it for us. 

 

The community has been a huge blessing and added a lot to our schooling that we were missing.  My children have grown in confidence and public speaking skills by leaps and bounds because they are required to give a presentation every week.  (Our campus takes the presentations very seriously, which I love.)  Of course we could always seek out opportunities to do presentations on our own, but let's be real.  If we didn't have to do it every week, it would rarely happen (for us.)  The amount of information that my children memorized last year astounded me.  Being in a small class with similar aged peers and under another adult's instruction, just once a week, has been very good for my kids in learning respect, turn taking, listening skills.  It is a day where they can see their friends and lessens the need for me to organize playdates.  I am very excited to start Essentials with my DD, as we have not done any formal writing and starting this program with other parents will be a huge help to me personally. 

 

In our community, the parents are asked to let others know about open house dates but we are not hounded to market the program.  The program really grows on it's own. 

 

I don't think it's the right fit for everyone, but for us it has been great. 

 

 

[Squawky Acres]

Some of the memory work is great.  Some not so much.  It would be a very easy thing to add in at home, and modify to taste.  That is what I am planning to do as soon as I am done de-toxing from our time in a community.  It was fun and educational, but very hectic and a lot of work (I was a tutor, and we had to drive a bit).  I still have my CC bag sitting in the pantry from when we came home last spring, and I haven't felt like going through it yet.

 

I agree with TheAttachedMama that the largest "con" is the push to convert others to CC.  Some homeschooling moms in our social group (that includes some CC members) have expressed frustration that they cannot have a meaningful conversation about homeschooling challenges without having a CC member jump in and offer CC as the solution to all homeschooling ills.  As a tutor, I felt that I could not offer authentic opinions and approaches that did not not line up with CC methods; and as I strongly believed that CC was not the answer for everyone, it got more difficult to talk with families at the open houses and recruiting events.

[paulasue]

This is my 3rd year in CC.  I am starting to do other memory work like CC at home.  We will continue to do CC style at home.  I love what Leigh Bortins created.  I do not like the monster it has become.  I have lived through 2 bad years, hoping things would change, but they haven't.  Now that Leigh is trying to build the athletic complex, next to CC's new HQ, I doubt there will be much time improving CC.  Leigh's oldest son, Robert, is now running the company. 

 

Every area is different.  Each state has their own director.  In our area, there is more a push for a certain sect of the protestant religion.  They even closed a campus, because the director could not find a person that met her exact religious beliefs above the Statement of Faith.  Every campus has a different feel and sense of community.  My community there is very few extra activities so there's not a sense of community.  I've gone to a CC day and not had anyone talk to me.  You will pay for CC, then you will be required to be on campus and with your child, clean the building, and we eat lunch on the floor in our community.  One year all the tutors and director ate together in a room on the other side of the church. 

 

Also, there are no refunds, so if you change your mind, your great tutor leaves, sorry.  That is the position I am in, I paid for the year, and now found memory work that I like better than CC's.  I would recommend that you check the communities out, because no 2 are alike.  If you do decide to go with a community, I would look at the memory work and make sure you and dh are ok with it. 

[DiannaC]

I'm definitely in the minority on this board, but I love CC. This is our 5th year and my kids have learned so much and so have I. No curriculum, community, or company is perfect because we are sinners and perfection won't be met until we reach eternity. I have never felt pressured at CC and I have seen directors and tutors do everything in their power to help a family who was concerned about paying for it. In full disclosure, I am a director this year and was a tutor for 4 years. I began a new community this year because in our area the other campuses are bursting at the seam. CC doesn't want to turn people away who want to participate. Also, in my time of holding info meetings, I don't pressure families to recruit their friends. I let them know of an upcoming event in case they know of someone who is interested. In fact, I had two moms so excited last week about CC and all their kids are learning that they were telling other moms on a field trip about CC - not because they were pressured, but because they were excited.

 

Check out CC for yourself; it might be the right fit for your family and it might not. :-)