lgliser Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 My 8 year old daughter has the worst time. We are on First Language Lessons 3 this year. I don't remember her having quite this hard of a time with the previous 2 years but this year she is really struggling repeating definitions back to me. Today it was, "if a noun ends in y after a consonant, change the y to i and add es." I realize this is sort of a tough sentence but I said it so many times. I also had her repeat just 2-3 words at a time, and then try it again all at once. I also tried just saying a few of the words and having her fill in the blank. She'd say things like, "in a sentence..... if a word......" so she'd be saying words that I hadn't even said. What the heck is going on?! Maybe I should post this on the learning challenge board but I was also wondering if anyone had this problem specifically with curriculum that requires memorization of rules/definitions and what suggestions you might have to help. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Long and kind of confusing. I would use letter tiles or write on a white board and demonstrate. Talk her through each part with a concrete demonstration. Then ask her to demonstrate the concept back to you, explaining what she can. Let her work on this over a week until she really understands and can say it back to you. Could be a working memory constraint (that's a LONG sentence, on top of being kind of convoluted phrasing, to try to repeat for that age). I'm sure some kids can do it. My dd struggled with working memory at that age and would take many repetitions over a week to memorize Bible verses. But even without a working memory issue, I think one day just isn't enough time for a lot of kids to remember all that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyGF Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Can she remember it if she sees it written down? My daughter probably would have a hard time if she heard it but would have success if she saw it written (which is why I decided FLL wasn't for her - she thrives if she reads her own lessons). Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanabug Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Both of my kids (7 and 9) have struggled with FLL's definitions. I have learned to simplify the definition as much as possible and practice each rule before requiring it to be memorized. The rule you mentioned was especially difficult for them to memorize, although they had no trouble demonstrating that they understood the concept. Give it time. She'll see that definition again and again, and eventually it will sink in or she'll learn to put it in her own words. Lana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgliser Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 Oh thank you!! So glad we aren't alone. I love the idea of letter tiles. We do All About Spelling so we have them already and I think that's just a great idea. I definitely agree that having her understand and being able to demonstrate the concept is the important part. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Oh thank you!! So glad we aren't alone. I love the idea of letter tiles. We do All About Spelling so we have them already and I think that's just a great idea. I definitely agree that having her understand and being able to demonstrate the concept is the important part. :) Does AAS not have that rule too? If it does, I'd probably have her memorize it only in one form (and probably the AAS one so that she's practicing it with other key cards) rather than memorizing it in two different ways for two different curricula. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgliser Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 Does AAS not have that rule too? If it does, I'd probably have her memorize it only in one form (and probably the AAS one so that she's practicing it with other key cards) rather than memorizing it in two different ways for two different curricula. So far we've only learned the s/es rule for plurals with AAS. But I definitely agree- only learn the rule one way! We started CLE reading this year and I'm encountering rules we've learned in either AAS or WWE and so I'm being careful not to overload the kids with the same rule worded in different ways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiara.I Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 So far we've only learned the s/es rule for plurals with AAS. But I definitely agree- only learn the rule one way! We started CLE reading this year and I'm encountering rules we've learned in either AAS or WWE and so I'm being careful not to overload the kids with the same rule worded in different ways. Found it! It's step 26 in Level 3, key card 19. They don't talk about specifically 'es', but about ALL vowel suffixes, unless they begin in 'i'. It's a more generalized form of the rule. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Since I've been having some fun with readability calculators lately, I decided to put that in: Readability Formula Grade Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 4.9 Gunning-Fog Score 9.2 Coleman-Liau Index 1.5 SMOG Index 6 Automated Readability Index 0.9 Average Grade Level 4.5 So, depending on how you look at it, it's a fairly easy or fairly tricky sentence. After reading it a few times, I could repeat it, but I was strongly relying on my understanding of the sentence to repeat it (and, trying to repeat it again a couple of minutes later, I changed 'noun' to 'word' in my repeat... and I suspect this kind of thing is easier for me than for the vast majority of 8yos). First off, I had to think about why that part about a consonant is in there to begin with (easy enough by thinking about a counter-example). So, after that, it was doable... but, for an 8yo who is just learning this rule, it seems to me like it'd be easy to get lost in that phrase. In a sense I think it's good that she said some words that weren't even in the sentence you said. That sounds to me like she's trying to think about the rule and not just parrot back a bunch of meaningless syllables (I can sing some songs in Finnish because my favorite band was a Finnish band... I don't have a clue what the words mean, but I can memorize a bunch of meaningless syllables if I want to... I wouldn't be happy though if my kid was memorizing grammar rules as if they were Finnish though). Btw, this reminds me of the movie "The Address" which they have on Netflix about some school where all the kids learn to memorize and recite the Gettysburg Address. Interesting movie. They work on making sure all the kids completely understand every single word in the address too though. Not saying you're not trying to teach your daughter to understand the rule as well as memorize it. Just rambling, I guess. The movie is interesting for various reasons, but you might want to watch it to see what all they do to help the kids with the memory-work (the kids have language-related disabilities or something - they're in high school, but I don't think that matters much). Okay, tried it with Celery... he did better than expected, but his best attempt simply left out "after a consonant". And his worst attempts had a bunch of the right words but in completely the wrong order. This was after listening to the phrase a few times first, then repeating it, then me saying it again, him trying again, etc etc etc. He actually got worse over time... (his first attempt was his best attempt... I did also explain at some point that this was the rule for how to pluralize a noun ending in y after a consonant). Not that Celery is a great yard-stick for what an 8yo should be able to do... he does get speech therapy. I guess if he could do it with no trouble I might be concerned about your daughter. He can't though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I guess I'm confused. Isn't the point to be able to *use* the spelling rule when needed? Is she getting practice doing that? Perhaps if she does it enough times, it will help her to repeat the rule correctly, assuming that is critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 In terms of the repeating it back, it sounds like she got frustrated and shut down, not like that's necessarily an inherent problem for her. I mean, maybe? But I think when kids get frustrated and confused - as she was by the meaning - sometimes they just stop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 My 8 year old daughter has the worst time. We are on First Language Lessons 3 this year. I don't remember her having quite this hard of a time with the previous 2 years but this year she is really struggling repeating definitions back to me. Today it was, "if a noun ends in y after a consonant, change the y to i and add es." I realize this is sort of a tough sentence but I said it so many times. I also had her repeat just 2-3 words at a time, and then try it again all at once. I also tried just saying a few of the words and having her fill in the blank. She'd say things like, "in a sentence..... if a word......" so she'd be saying words that I hadn't even said. What the heck is going on?! Maybe I should post this on the learning challenge board but I was also wondering if anyone had this problem specifically with curriculum that requires memorization of rules/definitions and what suggestions you might have to help. Thanks! Ah, yes, I remember these FLL 3 lessons. They get longer, and more convoluted -- all the rules for plurals, s, z, x, ch, sh, and so on. All three of my very verbal girls got tongue-tied on those, too. This might be a clue that your daughter is more of a visual learner. Perhaps she needs to see the words in print first, not just hear them? Try different ways of showing her what you'd like her to learn. There is more than one way. Since so much of the "rules and definitions work" from FLL is oral, so here's what I would do: 1. Before the lesson, write the rule on a dry erase board (or chalk board). 2. During the lesson, go over the meaning of the rule, do the examples before reciting the rule or definition, and just try to gauge her actual understanding (not her ability to repeat the rule verbatim). 3. Show her the rule on the board. Read it aloud together a few times. You could put your finger under each word as you read it. 4. Ask her which word she wants you to erase, then erase that one word (disappearing word technique). Read the rule again. 5. Continue to erase words, each time taking turns choosing which word to erase. You might want to choose two shorter words when it's your turn, to speed it up a bit. Also, it sometimes helps if you draw a blank line in the place of the erased word, so you can remember that the word was there in that spot! 6. By the end of the exercise, you will have a board full of blanks, and will have recited the rule aloud several times. HTH. At the back of the Teacher Guide, there is a chart of the rules for forming plurals and other things. It might pay you to print those rules on index cards and perhaps just have them available for more frequent review. Some folks print the rules on index cards and paste the cards on a tri-fold display board or poster board, which can come out during lessons. I ended up copying the list of rules as is, and putting them in the girls' grammar binders. Sometimes, if the lesson is going to be easy-peasy, we take a few minutes to blast through a recitation of definitions and rules, but I also like to check for comprehension with this. I do think that some people (myself included) need to see the words in print. Talk to me all day long, I'm not going to absorb it like I will if I can just see it once. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Does AAS not have that rule too? If it does, I'd probably have her memorize it only in one form (and probably the AAS one so that she's practicing it with other key cards) rather than memorizing it in two different ways for two different curricula. So far we've only learned the s/es rule for plurals with AAS. But I definitely agree- only learn the rule one way! We started CLE reading this year and I'm encountering rules we've learned in either AAS or WWE and so I'm being careful not to overload the kids with the same rule worded in different ways. This happened to my oldest a bit last year when she started working on Memoria Press' English Grammar Recitation. She said it messed her up to have even one word different from the FLL definition, and I could sympathize. :) So I just told her, "Pick the one you like the best and feel the most comfortable with, and learn that one down pat." It worked! Happy kid, lots accomplished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El... Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Found it! It's step 26 in Level 3, key card 19. They don't talk about specifically 'es', but about ALL vowel suffixes, unless they begin in 'i'. It's a more generalized form of the rule. Thank you! We're on the same week of FLL, having the same problem with the long definitions, and also on AAS 3. I will get out that rule card. Woohoo! Also, I love the idea of using the tiles to practice applying the rule. Dd is a very intuitive speller, so I wasn't make a big hairy deal out of whether she could repeat the whole definition, but this will be better. Great question, OP! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgliser Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 Great replies - Thanks again everyone! I'm going to get out that card in AAS :) Sahamamama, those are some really great ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I couldn't repeat that back to you, phrased in any manner at all. One of my kids definitely could not either. The other kid has a mind like a waterproof steel trap so he probably could BUT it's really a particularly unpoetic snippet isn't it?! In writing I would use the rule correctly and in editing, I would see it and correct it, and be able to articulate why it was incorrect. But actually saying that, out of context? My mind just wouldn't go that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Oh thank you!! So glad we aren't alone. I love the idea of letter tiles. We do All About Spelling so we have them already and I think that's just a great idea. I definitely agree that having her understand and being able to demonstrate the concept is the important part. :) Does AAS not have that rule too? If it does, I'd probably have her memorize it only in one form (and probably the AAS one so that she's practicing it with other key cards) rather than memorizing it in two different ways for two different curricula. I do think the AAS way is easier to remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stutterfish Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I couldn't repeat that back to you, phrased in any manner at all. One of my kids definitely could not either. The other kid has a mind like a waterproof steel trap so he probably could BUT it's really a particularly unpoetic snippet isn't it?! In writing I would use the rule correctly and in editing, I would see it and correct it, and be able to articulate why it was incorrect. But actually saying that, out of context? My mind just wouldn't go that way. Nope. I couldn't repeat it back, either. I'm a great speller and a competent writer, but have never been able to memorise definitions for spelling rules: I simply know when something doesn't 'look right' or 'sound right' and fix it. I tried to do AAS with my dd. She was fine, but I found it impossible. Ditto learning all those little fiddly unnecessary bits for grammar: 'predicate nominative'? Ugh. My inner teen just wants to roll my eyes, fold my arms and say 'But that's soooo stupid'. <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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