Ketogenic diet??

[Moxie]

Looking around the interwebs for low carb recipes, I've followed a rabbit trail to some ketogenic sites. I'm slightly intrigued. And slightly terrified. What says the hive??

 

I should add that I've had lots of success with low carb so I get that part. Fat bombs scare me!

[Ali in OR]

My daughter was on the ketogenic diet for 3 years for seizure control, and coming from that angle I'm a bit shocked and appalled that anyone would willingly go on this diet for any other reason. She was in the hospital to begin the diet, had regular bloodwork while on the diet, and was monitored by her neurologist and a dietician throughout. She had enough protein for growth, almost zero carbs, and the rest of her calories came from fat. She was constantly constipated for which she took milk of magnesia and was on supplements (multivitamin and calcium if I recall correctly). I know her triglycerides were high while on the diet; can't remember what else they monitored. Her doctor explained to us that it isn't a diet to stay on forever as it has other health consequences. The hope is that the brain gets out of the seizure pattern while you are on the diet and that those changes remain as you go back to a normal diet. It's very extreme and doesn't really provide your body with what it needs to thrive. In my opinion it belongs in the world of medical supervision for a specific health need, not a fad diet.

[idnib]

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[snickerplum]

I did for a while. I really liked it, but for some other unrelated health reasons I had to abandon it. Check out Leanne Vogel's website. http://www.healthfulpursuit.com/about/ She also has some helpful YouTube videos. If you live eggs and butter and bacon, you may like it. :-) I'm no doctor, so if you have concerns you might want to ask one. Personally I found it quite sustainable. Until I had to stop. :-)

[kiana]

I've known some people who did really well on it.

 

I also have a friend who dropped a really significant amount of weight (like 50 lbs) and his cholesterol skyrocketed from low 200s to well over 300. Since he has heart disease in his family, he found this quite concerning.

 

Since people react differently to different things, I do recommend that if you try it: 1) You get bloodwork done so that you can see how your body's reacting on a micro level. 2) You include plenty of low-carb veggies, especially green leafy ones. You can eat pounds of broccoli or spinach and not get a lot of net carbs. I really don't think keto is a good choice if it's accomplished by loads of meat, cheese, and a few fiber bars. 

[Guest]

My daughter was on the ketogenic diet for 3 years for seizure control, and coming from that angle I'm a bit shocked and appalled that anyone would willingly go on this diet for any other reason. She was in the hospital to begin the diet, had regular bloodwork while on the diet, and was monitored by her neurologist and a dietician throughout. She had enough protein for growth, almost zero carbs, and the rest of her calories came from fat. She was constantly constipated for which she took milk of magnesia and was on supplements (multivitamin and calcium if I recall correctly). I know her triglycerides were high while on the diet; can't remember what else they monitored. Her doctor explained to us that it isn't a diet to stay on forever as it has other health consequences. The hope is that the brain gets out of the seizure pattern while you are on the diet and that those changes remain as you go back to a normal diet. It's very extreme and doesn't really provide your body with what it needs to thrive. In my opinion it belongs in the world of medical supervision for a specific health need, not a fad diet.

This is the way I am familiar with it, through a friend. I would not do this except for a dire reason. I can hardly think of a more unappealing way of eating.

[3 ladybugs]

I eat paleo and my mom dabbles in this every so often. She looses weight in it. Which is what she wants. 

 

I started a social group on here for Paleo People. No one else has joined yet but I have yet to advertise it. Maybe this will help everyone. :)

[idnib]

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[J-rap]

My husband went on this diet to try and stop his chronic migraines.  (which some believe are related to epilepsy)  It didn't help him.

 

My son went on the paleo diet for other reasons, and couldn't believe the difference it made in his life.  I know there is some crossover between paleo and the keto diet, but unless you are doing it specifically for seizures, I think the paleo diet makes more sense to me.

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I did it two years ago for 11 days. I bought a meter and measured *blood* ketones. A standard low-carb diet may produce urine ketones in most people, but will not produce blood ketones unless they go very low carb and/or chug coconut oil/milk. I lost some weight but stopped because of the side effects. My sleep was horrible, I was dizzy a lot (despite extra salt and drinking bone broth) and halfway through I began to crave....wait for it...spinach! I finally decided that my body was crying out for some vegetable matter and that when your body starts to scream for spinach, you better listen!

 

While it is helpful for seizures, I have since read enough to convince me that a ketogenic diet is too low-carb and low-fiber to sustain a healthy microbiome. It's a great way to starve your friendly gut bacteria and prevent them from making both vitamins for you and short chain fatty acids that feed your intestinal cells. I have also read some interesting blog posts over at Free The Animal that show that the Inuit ate a higher carb diet than people claim, as well as way too much protein to get into long-term ketosis. 

 

In short, I believe a low grain/moderately low carb diet with lots of vegetables is a better choice and more sustainable in the long run. It also tastes a whole lot better.

[Ali in OR]

The diet really is almost no carbs at all. And only enough protein for cell growth--so no endless steak buffet either. It is mostly fat. My daughter was only 3, so bigger people would get more, but her dietician-generated numbers to get at each of 3 meals were 3.7 grams of carbohydrate, 5 grams of protein, and 31 grams of fat. I still have her old binder of meals--everything had to be carefully weighed and you could not err at all. A hot dog meal was 60 grams of cream (which has 1.5 gm carbs, 1.2 gm protein, 21.5 gm fat), 34 gm of a ball park hot dog (1.5 gm carbs, 3.8 gm protein, 9.9 gm fat), and 1 gm of cheerios (.7 gm carb). I think 1 gm of cheerios is 1 or 2 O's. The carbs in your "meat" and "fat" count toward your total, so there really isn't much left over. What does this lack? Fiber, vitamin C, many other necessary nutrients. This is a true ketogenic diet. If you're eating any significant quantity of fruits or veggies, you're not really doing keto. I believe paleo lets you eat most veggies and a lot more protein, so it's really a different animal (so to speak).

[idnib]

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[purplejackmama]

Because I'm too lazy to consult the google machine, what's the basic difference in paleo vs. keto?

[mamaraby]

I have no idea why people would view this as dire, but to each his own.

Because what you listed would be the road to constant nauseau for me...even six months in. A diet of fat, meat, cheese, and a side of green and yellow vegetables would be very sad for me. I'll take my beans, grains, starches, and fruit any day. So, yes, you're right, YMMV.

 

And also, because the "keto" diet that's in vogue with low-carb dieters and the ketogenic diet for epilepsy are two different things.

[Guest]

I am no expert, but Paleo and Ketogenic diet are NOT the same thing at all. I am in the paleo direction myself, partly because I cannot eat lactose without suffering and overall fewer grains and carbs do seem to be better for me. But Ketogenic diet, in my mind, is what my friend's boy had for seizures. I remember that kitchen scale, which was necessary for every morsel of food, and having to insist her boy eat every speck of his hot dogs with mayonaisse and cream.

[Ali in OR]

I'm completely confused about why you think you wouldn't eat vegetable matter and/or spinach on keto. Or did I misunderstand?

 

 

If you're out of ketosis, you're not doing keto. That varies for people. I usually eat around 20g of carbs/day and that includes a fair amount of vegetables and a handful or berries. People who workout everyday can sometimes eat 100g of carbs and still be in ketosis. I get a fair amount of fiber and vitamin c though raspberries, kale, cruciferous veggies, etc. A cup of kale has more vitamin c than the RDA.

 

A typical day looks like this for me:

 

Breakfast

Coffee with cream and coconut oil

 

Snack

Kale chips or a couple of ounces of hard cheese

 

Lunch

Chicken soup with homemade stock, chicken breast, and veggies

Fermented vegetables

or

Caesar salad with smoked salmon

 

Snack

Raspberries and macadamia nuts

 

Dinner

 

Fish with steamed or roasted veggies

1-2 squares of dark chocolate

 

Cod liver oil

 

I have no idea why people would view this as dire, but to each his own.  :)

 

You have way more grams of carbs than would be allowed on my daughter's ketogenic diet. And nowhere near enough fat.

 

The ketogenic diet is very numbers driven. My dd's keto ratio to keep her ketones in an acceptable range was 3:1 meaning that her calorie count was 3 parts from fat for every 1 part protein and carbs combined. And that 1 part of protein and carbs had to be mostly protein to allow for cell growth. Kale chips and cheese have maybe 10 gm carbohydrates (just googled kale chips), 7 gms protein, and 9.4 gm fat (protein and fat in 1 oz cheddar). For 17 grams carbs+protein, you need more like 3x17 fat, or 51 gms of fat. So add some more oil. This was our life for 3 years--you need to eat fat, fat, fat. It's not chicken soup and raspberries, it's cream, cream, and more cream. So you have a diet that works for you and may even keep you ketotic (do you have sweet breath and check ketones daily?) but it doesn't fit the definition of a ketogenic diet as is used by the medical and dietician communities. I wouldn't call it dire, but I wouldn't call it ketogenic either.

[Ali in OR]

Because I'm too lazy to consult the google machine, what's the basic difference in paleo vs. keto?

 

I don't know a whole lot about Paleo, but my impression is that it's primarily meat, veggies, nuts, and maybe some fruits? No grains or dairy. But I think you can still get everything you need from what they allow--fiber, vitamins, etc.

 

The ketogenic diet is fueling your body with fat. Your body burns fat instead of carbs for energy and this produces ketones (hence the name) and something about it can keep your brain from having seizures. I think it was also a treatment for diabetes before manufactured insulin. Your diet is very numbers driven--you have to make sure that your body is using fat for energy. Our keto ratio (pretty typical) was 3:1, meaning that my dd's calories were 3 parts from fat for every 1 part protein and carbs combined. Actually I think she started at 3.5:1 and "graduated" to 3:1 because she was still ketotic at that ratio. And it's not a high protein diet--just enough protein for cell growth.

 

So keto is a huge amount of fat. Way more than you can make palatable.

[JumpyTheFrog]

A typical day looks like this for me:

 

Breakfast

Coffee with cream and coconut oil

 

Snack

Kale chips or a couple of ounces of hard cheese

 

Lunch

Chicken soup with homemade stock, chicken breast, and veggies

Fermented vegetables

or

Caesar salad with smoked salmon

 

Snack

Raspberries and macadamia nuts

 

Dinner

 

Fish with steamed or roasted veggies

1-2 squares of dark chocolate

 

Cod liver oil

 

I have no idea why people would view this as dire, but to each his own. :)

That is almost certainly too many carbs to be in ketosis, as measured by a blood ketone meter. It might give urine ketones, but that is not the same thing. When I tried the ketogenic diet, I was chugging coconut milk smoothies like crazy to get my fat levels high enough. I can't have dairy, so this was about the only way to do it. What you are describing is low carb, not ketogenic.

 

My dad is a type 2 diabetic and low-carber. He tried the ketogenic diet as well and could never get low carb enough for have detectable blood ketones. I think the reason I had some show up was because of all the coconut milk I was having. The medium chain trigylcerides are supposed to convert to ketones more easily. There is one woman who gives her husband massive amounts of coconut or MCT oil (maybe 12 T per day) to help with his Alzheimers symptoms.

[sassenach]

My daughter was on the ketogenic diet for 3 years for seizure control, and coming from that angle I'm a bit shocked and appalled that anyone would willingly go on this diet for any other reason. She was in the hospital to begin the diet, had regular bloodwork while on the diet, and was monitored by her neurologist and a dietician throughout. She had enough protein for growth, almost zero carbs, and the rest of her calories came from fat. She was constantly constipated for which she took milk of magnesia and was on supplements (multivitamin and calcium if I recall correctly). I know her triglycerides were high while on the diet; can't remember what else they monitored. Her doctor explained to us that it isn't a diet to stay on forever as it has other health consequences. The hope is that the brain gets out of the seizure pattern while you are on the diet and that those changes remain as you go back to a normal diet. It's very extreme and doesn't really provide your body with what it needs to thrive. In my opinion it belongs in the world of medical supervision for a specific health need, not a fad diet.

This, this, this! Ds was on the diet for 2 years, and I'm utterly shocked that this is a thing. A legit Keto diet is hard on the body, and nothing to be trifled with.

[idnib]

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[sassenach]

In my defense, I mentioned the weight loss and sleep because I'm unwilling to post the details of my chronic illnesses on the boards. But keto helped a lot with that too.

 

I understand it's a sensitive topic and I'm not trying to be offensive, but I do think it's possible that simply because something was created for a narrow medical reason doesn't mean it doesn't have larger applications, even for the general public. It happened to be created for epilepsy, but it just as easily could have been created for obesity, diabetes, or polycystic ovarian syndrome and then found useful for epilepsy. I'm not sure why the order of things its useful for matters.

 

Here's a survey of research (up until 2013) published in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. I've pasted the abstract below and you can see they mention keto diets as a treatment for obesity since the 1960s. It's common and when a person says they used it to lose weight is not meant to be offensive to people who have used it for to treat their precious children for epilepsy.

 

 

Ali, I'm having trouble quoting your post, but to answer your questions:

 

I eat a ratio of about 360 calories from carbs and protein to about 900 calories from fat. In the sample menu I add 3TB of cream and coconut oil to my coffee and all lots of butter and/or olive oil and/or walnut oil on the veggies and fish, plus fat from cheese and cod liver oil. Some days I have more fat, some days less.

 

I don't check for ketosis because ketone blood monitors are expensive and ketostix don't work well after you've been in ketosis for a long time so I no longer use them. I never had the sweet breath (not everyone does) but I have other signs. Pretty much if you're eating less than 20g of carbs/day, you're in ketosis. Your brain needs energy to run and 20g of carbs/day is not enough without ketones to make up the difference. (Although my kids might claim my brain is not running.) :)

While what you describe is an extreme diet that is sort of like a ketogenic diet, it's not the actual ketogenic diet. That is painfully obvious to those of us who have done the actual ketogenic diet with our kids. Your posts are frankly coming off as quite ignorant of the extreme nature, medical risk, and painstaking detail of the real Keto diet. To watch my kid transition into ketosis was harder and more painful than I ever anticipated. And I'm no wimp. I had no idea that food could be so dangerous.

 

So when others, like myself, have given years of our lives to scales, blood tests, and worst of all, miserable children, all for the hope of relieving the one thing that is worse than the diet, and you post that it's no big deal, this is how people used to eat, it is offensive. I do realize that is the mother of all run on sentences, but I'm too annoyed to care about it.

 

I'm glad you have found a diet that helps you. Sincerely.

[Sandragood1]

I think folks here are confusing the real, medical ketogenic diet that is used to treat seizure disorders with the high fat low carb (HFLC) diet which is sometimes called a ketogenic diet. They are not the same. The medical version is much more extreme. The HFLC is more like primal/paleo with the high carb veggies thrown out and a limit on fruits and dairy.

 

HFLC is a diet I have followed. All my blood work improved. I lost weight. And once spring arrived, with its in-season strawberries and then all the other fruits, I found it to be impossible.

[Ali in OR]

 

 

I wish they would give the diet for epilepsy (that you need a doctor's help with) a different name or something.  

 

But we had the name first! :001_smile:

 

Seriously, it's been a medical treatment for close to 100 years, so it's hard for me to not think in terms of the strictly regimented diet as the true ketogenic diet. I remember the toothpaste hunt, and the constipation treatment had to be milk of magnesia. I had to go to a compounding pharmacy to get the calcium so it wouldn't have any carbs. And every meal had to follow the strict ratio--no having extra fat at one meal to balance extra carbs later. Any slip could mean you fall out of ketosis. It did help with dd's seizures, though she never became completely seizure-free or med-free. It was kind of a relief to get off the diet (had to seriously increase meds though) and dd was much happier with real food again. But she has always loved cheese and disliked sweets and I think the keto days shaped that!

[idnib]

While what you describe is an extreme diet that is sort of like a ketogenic diet, it's not the actual ketogenic diet. That is painfully obvious to those of us who have done the actual ketogenic diet with our kids. Your posts are frankly coming off as quite ignorant of the extreme nature, medical risk, and painstaking detail of the real Keto diet. To watch my kid transition into ketosis was harder and more painful than I ever anticipated. And I'm no wimp. I had no idea that food could be so dangerous.

 

So when others, like myself, have given years of our lives to scales, blood tests, and worst of all, miserable children, all for the hope of relieving the one thing that is worse than the diet, and you post that it's no big deal, this is how people used to eat, it is offensive. I do realize that is the mother of all run on sentences, but I'm too annoyed to care about it.

 

I'm glad you have found a diet that helps you. Sincerely.

 

It was extremely difficult for me to transition as an adult. I feel for your child. I checked the epilepsy diet and am following similar ratios. The only thing I didn't do is start with a water fast. Half of the days I am at around 15g of carbs, the others 20-22g.

 

I'm sorry you find the fact that I feel much better and lost weight on the same diet as your child so offensive. Perhaps it's because the stakes are not as high if I err or cheat. I have no emotional link through my children to this diet, it's just an effective way for me to manage my weight and my chronic illness. I think there's a world of difference when it's your child and they're miserable and the stakes are high.

 

I've deleted all my posts but have been extensively quoted so I'm not sure how that helps.

[Guest homasroveo]

I've known some people who did really well on it.