Hunter Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Does anyone use the list of character traits in TWTM in any meaningful way? from "The Well-Trained Mind: A Guide to Classical Education at Home (Third Edition)" by Susan Wise Bauer, Jessie Wise - "Boldness Honesty Compassion Humility Creativity Initiative Dependability Patience Determination Perseverance Diligence Responsibility Endurance Self-control Enthusiasm Sincerity Fairness Thoroughness Forgiveness Tolerance Gratefulness Truthfulness" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 We did a Bible-based character curriculum that covered many of these this year. It's free from Focus on the Family and is called Kids of Integrity. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 When I have used SOW( Student of the Word), not to be confused with SOTW, the list of character traits was integrated into all studies. SOW traits are different than these and have antonyms. I think I might look up the antonyms for these and make up a worksheet for book reports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73349 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I have this book by the Popovs, and I like it because of its kid-friendly pictures and explanations. Come to think of it, it's time to put it back into the basket for couch time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 I never realized how controversial character trait lists could be until recently. For example "humble" is not a virtue in all cultures. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 This list doesn't include obedience, but does include tolerance. This sets it apart from some more conservative lists. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Not this list, but we use Simply Charlotte Mason's Laying Down the Rails. These lists always make me think of Dr. Benjamin Franklin's thirteen virtues. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 Yup, I have used dear Ben's list, too. The only lists I have ever buckled down and used are SOW and Ben, both of which just don't feel like a great fit anymore. This list feels better for where I am right now. I'm thinking my old methods should work with this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classical Katharine Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 It could be interesting to tie Susan's list to verses from Proverbs; to Colossians 3: 1-17; and to I Corinthians 13, the part on love. Huge amounts of material on character traits God desires in those places. Interesting point about obedience and tolerance. "Tolerance" depending on how defined overlaps with "love is patient, love is kind, love does not seek its own" and so on. But then again sometimes "boldness" and "honesty" from the list may require something in tension with tolerance. Life . . . wisdom needed! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I never realized how controversial character trait lists could be until recently. For example "humble" is not a virtue in all cultures. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 That doesn't mean it shouldn't be. How do you know that? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 Ravin once had some super interesting things to say about Norse societies that did not include humbleness as a virtue, by any definition. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 It is definitely true that some societies don't look at humility especially positively. I would argue that those societies tend to be fairly competitive and even aggressive, and often not easy for people who are less able in any way to have a good life. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I can't generally pull off enthusiasm. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 How do you know that? Because I know everything, and I know better than you, and subsequently there is no need for me to beat around the bush with a false respectful courtesy and say things like "maybe this" or "maybe that." No, I can just make pronouncements, such as "Being humble ought to be a virtue on everyone's list." :glare: :tongue_smilie: What?!? I just posted that way to show how incredibly off-putting arrogance is, so if you define "humility" as the absence of pretentious arrogance and condescension, then it is usually a much-needed virtue. In my opinion. Which is not worth a hill of beans, actually. :smilielol5: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I can't generally pull off enthusiasm. Oh, man, you and me both! That is so HARD, if I'm not authentically there. Is there a lack of virtue in "faking it?" Or is there a greater lack of virtue in not faking it if the situation seems to call for "enthusiasm?" I have never been able to fake that, and it is socially disastrous at times. Just leave me alone with my Kindle, ya know? Sorry, I have been trying to psych myself up for the restart to the kids' Social Calendar -- woohoo. Can't do it, but I will chauffeur them there. Oh joy. Choir practice. Check. Church midweek. Check. Piano lessons. Check, check, check. Co-op. Groan. I know the girls need it, but the hardest part for me is the fact of my lack of enthusiasm. Sparkly -- What do you do when it's "needed?" 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Do you have any examples? Would you consider the USA to be such a place? No, I don't think so. There are some people like that of course everywhere. In modern times, I would tend to associate it with very macho cultures, though even there it isn't always the whole culture. Someone mentioned the Vikings, and I think the ancient Romans were like that too. A story could be something like "this is the story of how I single-highhandedly conquered the enemy, and bla bla bla" and it could be told without blushing. I guess the US has some sub-cultures like that. I can imagine a rap start singing something like a Viking poem. They kind of remind me about what Nietzche says about societies before the inversion of values which (I think?) he attributes to the Hebrews, and then is even more emphasized with Christianity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Perhaps most of these can be summed up as "be a decent human, work hard, don't give up easily, and be sincere in everything you do"? That sums it up well. I define humility as the understanding of who I am (a valuable human being) amidst the world I live in (other valuable human beings). My inherent worth is no more than anyone else's. I think most other virtues depend upon humility as a foundation. How can we discuss Fairness, if we don't start at a place where we recognize that all people are of the same worth? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 How do we KNOW everyone is of equal worth? There is a lot of parroting of that term with little action to back it up. I have come to the conclusion that most people like the idea until it inconveniences them, and that there are plenty of people that reject the idea right away. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Yesterday was yet another one of those days where another straw broke the camel's back. I have these days where to outsiders it would look like nothing of significance happened, but the cumulative events as a whole have to reach the tipping/breaking point at some time. All humans are equal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Oh, man, you and me both! That is so HARD, if I'm not authentically there. Is there a lack of virtue in "faking it?" Or is there a greater lack of virtue in not faking it if the situation seems to call for "enthusiasm?" I have never been able to fake that, and it is socially disastrous at times. Just leave me alone with my Kindle, ya know? Sorry, I have been trying to psych myself up for the restart to the kids' Social Calendar -- woohoo. Can't do it, but I will chauffeur them there. Oh joy. Choir practice. Check. Church midweek. Check. Piano lessons. Check, check, check. Co-op. Groan. I know the girls need it, but the hardest part for me is the fact of my lack of enthusiasm. Sparkly -- What do you do when it's "needed?" When is it needed? LOL But uh yeah I could have written a similar post. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 All humans are not equal, but they should be. I once read something that said essentially if we want to be fair we have to give some people more and some less because some people need more. Wish I could remember the exact wording because it sounded a heck of a lot more eloquent than what I just typed. Hopefully you get the gist. But I believe it is true. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Maybe "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs"? LOL. No it wasn't that exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Something like "Fairness is not treating everyone the same." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I was more adding to what you said. I think I get what you mean. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 However you want to word it, the idea certainly has a lot going for it. Some people also call this equity, as opposed to equality. Not everyone is the same, so not everyone has the same needs. Giving a full scholarship to a poor student makes a lot more sense than giving it to one who would have no trouble affording the tuition. When I said all humans should be equal, in reply to Hunter's question, I essentially meant everyone deserves to be treated with basic human dignity. Even that is simplistic though. I certainly don't think rapists are equal to people who devote their lives to helping those who need help, for instance. But that doesn't mean we need to torture them. Gee. I'm not wording myself very well. I couldn't sleep (hot, hot, hot here) and I feel groggy. I think this idea of human dignity is a good way to put it. And its important to realize that if it is true, it does require us to recognize it in all people, including for example criminals - because it is only their human dignity that really makes them criminals. A dog that kills someone might be put down, but it isn't a moral issue or a crime against the community or an individual, because he is an animal. We don't - or shouldn;t - feel incensed in that way. A person who does terrible things is morally wrong precisly because it is impossible for him to renounce his humanity. If he has lost it through something like mental illness we actually don't hold him accountable by law. But that means that we can't punish a culpable person for his act and at the same time declare him outside humanity - that would be contradictory. Therefore we are constrained also to treat him in accordance with human dignity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 All humans are inherently equal in worth. We also have the capabilities for both good and evil. The choices we make define our ultimate value to society...but even so, basic human dignity demands a certain respect. I think that there are many people throughout history who characterize what I mean. Phillis Wheatley, for example, was sold as a slave. The circumstances that she found herself in (de-humanizing to the extreme!!!) did not nullify her humanity. What is her worth? She was sold for $, but her legacy is priceless. We can then look at the slave traders. They viewed their own lives as priceless, but their legacy is one of degradation and destruction. Then, there are slave traders who turned abolitionist. Does their good outweigh their bad? The current circumstance and our present POV are not generally accurate indicators of a person's worth. I believe that, in humility, we must always lay out the choices before us...we all start with the option for good or for evil, for activity or apathy, for survival or for giving up hope. A person can change their course BECAUSE we do all begin and end with the same inherent value. And that is NOT to say that we are where we are b/c we deserve it according to the choices we've previously made. Other people's choices effect us. Phyllis Wheatley was not unhuman simply b/c other humans treated her that way. She did not deserve to be a slave, nor do any of the other millions of slaves in existence. Life is not a situation where you make one choice and it is done, not typically. It's a series of choices, both yours and others. When we understand humility, we understand that other peoples choices can limit our own, but cannot force us to choose anything. We understand also, that the way we endure adversity effects other people. We are reading "I am Malala" right now. Her worth is not based on what the Taliban thinks of her. Yet, they do limit her choices...she can not go home for fear of her life. She could choose hate and revenge, but she does not. Her amazing personality shines through because of the adversity she woke up into. None of this makes any sense, I'm sure. But yes, all people are equal...whether other people recognize that fact or not. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 It makes sense. I just don't believe it anymore. There is nothing that contradicts what you believe that I believe either, though. I don't think I believe much of anything at this point, especially after yesterday. As if I wasn't apathetic and disbelieving enough already. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 I don't think it's possible for me right now to present students with a list of character traits. Earlier in the week, I thought, maybe. Now, it looks like there are no maybes. I give up on this. I don't even know the definition of human and don't think I think it is superior to animal. Different than animal, but not superior. Mostly we just have a greater capacity for foolishness and inefficiency, never mind evil. If even evil is real. Maybe that is just another debatable character trait. Humans are inefficient. I think I believe that if nothing else. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I don't think it's possible for me right now to present students with a list of character traits. Earlier in the week, I thought, maybe. Now, it looks like there are no maybes. I give up on this. I don't even know the definition of human and don't think I think it is superior to animal. Different than animal, but not superior. Mostly we just have a greater capacity for foolishness and inefficiency, never mind evil. If even evil is real. Maybe that is just another debatable character trait. Humans are inefficient. I think I believe that if nothing else. I think this sort of thing is extremely difficult because really it depends on who you ask, your frame of mind at the moment, what you yourself believe, etc. etc... I try to take people one at a time and I try not to be too hard on people. But there are things I have a hard time accepting, liking, or treating fairly. I'm sure we all do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Hunter, I disagree with this statement: whoever has made you lose faith in humanity so much lately is definitely not equal. I think they are human. I think that what they are is all that there is to being human. I think that that's it. I'm pretty disappointed. I was hoping for more. I want a puppy, but that would mean having to interact with a human vet, and I'm not up to bringing any more humans into my life. Now, if I could get a dog vet to take care of my puppy, I'd get one. :lol: and it would just be me and the dogs for awhile. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 What does it mean to say people are equal? I'm not sure I believe we are all equal. We aren't robots stamped out on an assembly line with identical parts. Some things about people aren't valued at all. Some things are highly valued. Most things in both of those categories can't even be controlled. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 I think this sort of thing is extremely difficult because really it depends on who you ask, your frame of mind at the moment, what you yourself believe, etc. etc... I try to take people one at a time and I try not to be too hard on people. But there are things I have a hard time accepting, liking, or treating fairly. I'm sure we all do. I'm not hard on people at all anymore. I'll have knee-jerk reactions by habit, but in just seconds, I become completely apathetic. Sometimes to even murder. And apathy to murder was before yesterday. The dust still hasn't settled and I'm not even sure where I'm at now. Just even one more step after apathy to murder, whatever that is. I just know where I'm at now is past character traits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 I can still laugh. You humans are really funny to watch. I'll skip the beer. My blood pressure is barely high enough not to go into shock, and its a depressant. I'm apathetic but not depressed. I think the beer would make me stop laughing. I need to keep laughing. Even if it's at the inefficiency of humans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 We really need nonhuman vets. I bet the animals agree. Maybe my new project can be finding a way to train nonhuman vets. I'm just joking. See, I can still laugh. Ezrabean has a guinea pig or two. Maybe I need a guinea pig. I'll have to ask her if they need much vet care. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Beer? Where...when? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 You are WAY too far away. :lol: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I once read something that said essentially if we want to be fair we have to give some people more and some less because some people need more. Wish I could remember the exact wording because it sounded a heck of a lot more eloquent than what I just typed. Hopefully you get the gist. But I believe it is true. I read something like a loooooooooooong time ago, I think in an anthropology article. Anyway, the author was saying something along the lines of, "In this culture (wherever he was), equal distribution is NOT seen as fair. Instead, fair is seen as distributing according to the needs and abilities of the people in the community." He went on to say -- this is an old memory, rough around the edges -- that an example of this principle could be seen in the distribution of meat. Say a strong, young male hunted that day and came home to distribute the meat. He would give LESS to the other strong, able-bodied young men, but MORE to the blind, old woman, because the other men could hunt for themselves, whereas the old, blind woman needed what he could give her. This was unequal, but fair. Hunter, here are some interesting character education materials. We're planning on going through the Six Pillars this year. https://charactercounts.org/ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 It makes sense. I just don't believe it anymore. There is nothing that contradicts what you believe that I believe either, though. I don't think I believe much of anything at this point, especially after yesterday. As if I wasn't apathetic and disbelieving enough already. :grouphug: Hunter, I disagree with this statement: whoever has made you lose faith in humanity so much lately is definitely not equal. I stand corrected. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 How do we KNOW everyone is of equal worth? There is a lot of parroting of that term with little action to back it up. I have come to the conclusion that most people like the idea until it inconveniences them, and that there are plenty of people that reject the idea right away. I think there are types of worth. For example: 1. One has worth because one is alive. 2. One has worth if one is a decent person. 3. One gets some cherry on top worthiness assigned from people they are particularly special to. Everyone who is not dead gets type one worthiness respect from me. Not everyone gets type two worthiness respect from me. Even fewer people get type three worthiness respect from me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 I am always intrigued my Rosie's idea that simply being alive gives us the right to be alive. Intrigued is different than believing it. I like it that she believes it, though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arliemaria Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Maybe you should focus on habit training instead of virtues. That might make some humans more efficient. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 26, 2015 Author Share Posted July 26, 2015 Maybe you should focus on habit training instead of virtues. That might make some humans more efficient. You made me smile when I thought very literally about applying that. It was a pretty surreal scene. But seriously, habit training is about cooercing a person to practice a virtue, right? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanikit Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 "But seriously, habit training is about cooercing a person to practice a virtue, right?" That is interesting - training my children to brush their teeth - I am cooercing them to be obedient, to be honest about it, to have acceptance of my reasoning, to be accountable, to have the virtue of hopefully beauty (beautiful teeth?), to be brave (especially if the toothpaste is burny), to be generally clean, to be committed (to brushing their teeth), to have confidence in being able to, to be courteous to the needs of others (by not having rotten teeth), to be diligent (and do the job properly), to have faith (in me as their mother), to be humble (to realise that they are not capable of having clean teeth without brushing them), to be moderate (neither over brush nor under brush their teeth), to be orderly (put the toothpaste and toothbrush where they belong, do things in the right order), to have punctuality (brush their teeth at the appointed time), to be reliable, to have restraint (not whining, not throwing or squeezing all the toothpaste out the tube), to trust, to be tolerant, to be wise and understanding.... Mmmm, maybe character training is simpler than it seems :) and habit training seems to be about way more than one virtue at a time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 "But seriously, habit training is about cooercing a person to practice a virtue, right?" That is interesting - training my children to brush their teeth - I am cooercing them to be obedient, to be honest about it, to have acceptance of my reasoning, to be accountable, to have the virtue of hopefully beauty (beautiful teeth?), to be brave (especially if the toothpaste is burny), to be generally clean, to be committed (to brushing their teeth), to have confidence in being able to, to be courteous to the needs of others (by not having rotten teeth), to be diligent (and do the job properly), to have faith (in me as their mother), to be humble (to realise that they are not capable of having clean teeth without brushing them), to be moderate (neither over brush nor under brush their teeth), to be orderly (put the toothpaste and toothbrush where they belong, do things in the right order), to have punctuality (brush their teeth at the appointed time), to be reliable, to have restraint (not whining, not throwing or squeezing all the toothpaste out the tube), to trust, to be tolerant, to be wise and understanding.... Mmmm, maybe character training is simpler than it seems :) and habit training seems to be about way more than one virtue at a time. That's a bit deep for teeth brushing. What is wrong with burny toothpaste? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 26, 2015 Author Share Posted July 26, 2015 "But seriously, habit training is about cooercing a person to practice a virtue, right?" That is interesting - training my children to brush their teeth - I am cooercing them to be obedient, to be honest about it, to have acceptance of my reasoning, to be accountable, to have the virtue of hopefully beauty (beautiful teeth?), to be brave (especially if the toothpaste is burny), to be generally clean, to be committed (to brushing their teeth), to have confidence in being able to, to be courteous to the needs of others (by not having rotten teeth), to be diligent (and do the job properly), to have faith (in me as their mother), to be humble (to realise that they are not capable of having clean teeth without brushing them), to be moderate (neither over brush nor under brush their teeth), to be orderly (put the toothpaste and toothbrush where they belong, do things in the right order), to have punctuality (brush their teeth at the appointed time), to be reliable, to have restraint (not whining, not throwing or squeezing all the toothpaste out the tube), to trust, to be tolerant, to be wise and understanding.... Mmmm, maybe character training is simpler than it seems :) and habit training seems to be about way more than one virtue at a time. Thank you! I love this! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 26, 2015 Author Share Posted July 26, 2015 That's a bit deep for teeth brushing. What is wrong with burny toothpaste? You must not have any kids with sensory issues. :lol: No problems with seams on socks either? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 You must not have any kids with sensory issues. :lol: No problems with seams on socks either? Well sort of. One hates tags and stuff. The other hates the taste of all but one toothpaste. He will use Tom's Strawberry and that is it. I hate the taste of toothpaste too, but I'm 41 so I just suck it up and use whatever. Most of it makes me gag though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanikit Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 It was tongue in cheek (do not take that seriously) - burny toothpaste just doesn't work for my 4.5 year old - my 7 year old is getting old enough now to start coping with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 It was tongue in cheek (do not take that seriously) - burny toothpaste just doesn't work for my 4.5 year old - my 7 year old is getting old enough now to start coping with it. Oh burny like too minty? I thought this was a brand. I'm constantly on the lookout for a less disgusting toothpaste. I can't hack the super minty stuff. There was this one I used in Germany that I loved and I bought several tubes, but I ran out. Wish I could find something like it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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