zarabellesmom Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 I'm working through MIF 2A with my 6 year old and we've gotten to the chapter where they introduce Singapore style bar models. She's demonstrated her ability to do them several times, but she's really put out with me because she's answering the math mentally and then she thinks it's a waste of time to then draw the bar model. I think the bar diagrams might be useful eventually (might...my oldest hated them and ditched them quite happily when she started BA at this age) but I also think I could reintroduce them when the problems become more difficult. Today for example, she read, "Mr. Jackson drove 427 miles last week. This week he drove 215 miles. How many miles did he drive in two weeks?" She did some quick mental calculations and then she seemed put out when I asked her to draw the model (but she did it anyway). I need permission to skip. :) My husband and I agree that we always hated when we were asked to show our work in school and there was no work to show because we just knew the answer. I hate for her to feel I'm wasting her time (though I don't think it's a complete waste, well maybe I do, I just don't know). I'm really conflicted. I want to keep her interested in math so I don't want to make it drudgery. Her sister was begging for more at this age, and Annabelle is just, "can we be done with this now?" What would you do. She doesn't seem at all challenged. Help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 My DD had a hard time with bar models because she couldn't draw them accurately enough at your DD's age, so I had her build them instead. That showed me that she understood how to use the tool, but let her move on, and we didn't do it for every problem, only enough to show that she knew how to set it up, or where she felt it was helpful. I allowed her, around SM 4 (when she was also using HOE) to do problems either with bar models or with algebra, and that transitioned her into algebraic notation. I've seen her pull out drawing out a bar model when she's trying to parse AOPS algebra problems into mathematical notation, so I think this worked for her. Eventually problems get to the point where you can no longer do them mentally, so having those tools as to HOW to make it work on paper is important. Just maybe not important enough to have to show your work on every single problem (FWIW, my DD has done both math kangaroo exams and EXPLORE tests without actually using her scratch paper. And done fairly well at them, so I understand the frustration of trying to get a kid who just "gets it" to write stuff down!. AMC practice papers, MathCounts, Mandelbrot, and similar challenge problems have done a really good job of teaching her that there is a time to write stuff down, but it took getting some hard problems to get her to that point). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Showing work is important, but bar models are just one of many tools. For the problem you stated, I would just have her write down the addition problem she was performing- the bar figure would be serious overkill. I never heard of bar models until I came to this forum. It is entirely possible to be very successful at mathematics without this tool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerileanne99 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 My dd5 hated/hates them. And, as in dmmetler's experience, it is often because she couldn't draw them perfectly or found them a waste of time. I still insisted on some, but as long as she shows me the steps of her work I don't push it. She is also doing HOE, and finds the algebraic representation 'lots more fun.' I agree, it is just one tool, one approach. Sometimes we brainstorm different ways to approach problems and she will say 'I guess we could draw the bars, but I don't want to,' and we move on. A few times I have had her talk me through drawing it, but I am not overly concerned:) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Here is a question for you: When your child has the ability to read a word right off, without needing to sound it out, then blend and then say the word, do you still require them to sound out each and every word on a page? So instead of seeing The little boy cannot reach the rope and immediately saying 'The little boy cannot reach the rope.' because they recognize all of the words and speedily decode any word that they don't know on sight, would you, as the parent/teacher, actually have them to go through it, sounding out and blending each word as follows: "The liiiit-tle b-oy...the little boy caaaan-nooot....cannot reeeeeee-ch, reach. the roooooope. 'The little boy cannot reach the rope." ^ If you would not make reading a single sentence this long drawn out, overcomplicated and mentally painful past time, then do not do the same thing to a math problem. Do not pick the most laborious way to accomplish something for young kids. Talk about how to solve the problems, perhaps pick a few challenging problems that are designed to teach problem solving skills and do a couple of those a day, but for goodness sake, do not just drag things out because its what you think someone else would do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 My DD had a hard time with bar models because she couldn't draw them accurately enough at your DD's age, so I had her build them instead. That showed me that she understood how to use the tool, but let her move on, and we didn't do it for every problem, only enough to show that she knew how to set it up, or where she felt it was helpful. I allowed her, around SM 4 (when she was also using HOE) to do problems either with bar models or with algebra, and that transitioned her into algebraic notation. I've seen her pull out drawing out a bar model when she's trying to parse AOPS algebra problems into mathematical notation, so I think this worked for her. Eventually problems get to the point where you can no longer do them mentally, so having those tools as to HOW to make it work on paper is important. Just maybe not important enough to have to show your work on every single problem (FWIW, my DD has done both math kangaroo exams and EXPLORE tests without actually using her scratch paper. And done fairly well at them, so I understand the frustration of trying to get a kid who just "gets it" to write stuff down!. AMC practice papers, MathCounts, Mandelbrot, and similar challenge problems have done a really good job of teaching her that there is a time to write stuff down, but it took getting some hard problems to get her to that point). This is what I do. He demonstrated it with C rods and then I moved on. He can do them mentally as well. Occasionally, I would ask him how and he'll explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 The examples they give of bar models in the beginning with MIF are really kinda dumb. They are more useful when the problem is not as obvious. I know one has to start somewhere, but I would explain it to my son and then I'd let him calculate it and answer it how he wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zarabellesmom Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 This is what I do. He demonstrated it with C rods and then I moved on. He can do them mentally as well. Occasionally, I would ask him how and he'll explain. Yes, this is what we do too. She drew one or two but they were messy which she doesn't like because she is a perfectionist. I pulled out the C rods and she used those fine but still finds the exercise fairly pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zarabellesmom Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Here is a question for you: When your child has the ability to read a word right off, without needing to sound it out, then blend and then say the word, do you still require them to sound out each and every word on a page? So instead of seeing The little boy cannot reach the rope and immediately saying 'The little boy cannot reach the rope.' because they recognize all of the words and speedily decode any word that they don't know on sight, would you, as the parent/teacher, actually have them to go through it, sounding out and blending each word as follows: "The liiiit-tle b-oy...the little boy caaaan-nooot....cannot reeeeeee-ch, reach. the roooooope. 'The little boy cannot reach the rope." ^ If you would not make reading a single sentence this long drawn out, overcomplicated and mentally painful past time, then do not do the same thing to a math problem. Do not pick the most laborious way to accomplish something for young kids. Talk about how to solve the problems, perhaps pick a few challenging problems that are designed to teach problem solving skills and do a couple of those a day, but for goodness sake, do not just drag things out because its what you think someone else would do. I hadn't really thought of it that way, but you make a very very good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zarabellesmom Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Showing work is important, but bar models are just one of many tools. For the problem you stated, I would just have her write down the addition problem she was performing- the bar figure would be serious overkill. I never heard of bar models until I came to this forum. It is entirely possible to be very successful at mathematics without this tool. Thank you. I've read lots of your math posts and always value your advice. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanDiegoMom Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 There are definitely increasing levels of complexity with bar models- maybe wait until they get a little more challenging? I waso unsure about the usefulness of teaching them until a sat down with my oldest to take a practice SAT section with her, and realized I could answer a question on there with bar models. It doesn't mean that it could only be answered with bar models, but on a timed test it's nice to have multiple options so that if you can't remember one way to solve it, you have a back up method! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 My son saw no use for them until the problems got hard enough to need something besides his brain to do them. And then when he finally did see use for them, he had trouble with the motor planning aspect of drawing the diagrams. So I had him dictate to me how he wanted them to look and I drew them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 My dd hated using the models when she was that age. She wanted to know why they "wanted [her] to do all that work when the answer was (insert correct answer figured out in her head)." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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