Article: Many U.S. schools still resist challenging all their students

[MarkT]

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/many-us-schools-still-resist-challenging-all-their-students/2015/04/15/e063d446-e304-11e4-905f-cc896d379a32_story.html?tid=hybrid_linearcol_3_na>

 

for discussion -  from personal experience this writer does not have a much insight into real US schools - the non-performers in schools want to bring the rest of the class down with them - the parents do not raise children that respect the value of education

 

[Mrs. Tharp]

I don't agree. Their insight into US school seems rock solid to me and I agree with their conclusion. It is not fair to have restricted access to AP classes.

 

There are many reasons for kids in hs to be "non-performers" other than their family culture. I take particular issue with your premise that all such children want to "bring the rest of the class down with them". I have a child with special needs who will always struggle in a ps setting and I find that statement offensive.

 

But say if it was true. In AP classes, such students would be highly unlikely to succeed in that particular goal because if a teacher did go along with an agenda to "dumb down the class", far fewer students would pass the AP exam at the end of the year. The negative consequences for the teacher, such as irate parents, annoyed administrators, etc., would be swift.

[Mrs. Tharp]

Btw, I sincerely hope I haven't just responded to a troll. Is this for real?

[NittanyJen]

If the data in the larger study hold up, I will have to overturn my long-held beliefs about AP courses and exams-- my experience tutoring shell-shocked university students who scored well on AP but still were not prepared for university courses notwithstanding (and those students lacked the basic knowledge they needed, since they merely crammed for the AP exam instead of learning anything; knowledge they would likely have picked up in a normal college-prep course).  

 

As I think about it, perhaps the answer is that the last bit of high school is more about learning how to learn than about acquiring knowledge, particularly from the study where it said that readiness-matched subjects showed a bump in college performance even if they flubbed the exam (at a score of 2, but not a score of 1).  If that is so, then my long-held beliefs about the lack of value of AP courses for average students may have to tumble down.

 

I will have to watch for additional data.  It's not easy to say I was wrong about something I have been so adamant about.

[MinivanMom]

I guess my concern is that the overall challenge of AP classes is lowered when there is open enrollment.

 

If you have a high school class of 500 and limit the enrollment in AP English to 10% of the class through an entrance exam, prerequisite grades, or teacher recommendation, then you would wind up with 2 sections of AP English that (theoretically) include the top 10% of students. Let's say that with open enrollment, an additional 30% of students wish to enroll in AP English. The school opens 5-6 additional sections and quadruples the number of students taking the class. Yes, those students benefit from taking AP, but the top students are now dispersed among 7-8 sections of English instead of 2. Of course those additional students aren't deliberating trying to bring down the instruction in the class, but it's a rare teacher who wouldn't adjust their teaching to fit the general ability level of the students in the class.

 

I attended 3 different high schools in CA. One limited honors/AP instruction by exam (2 sections of H/AP in each subject for a class of 1200 - top 5%); the instruction was very rigorous. The other 2 high schools had open enrollment in honors/AP. The classes were taught to a much lower level, and the AP passing rate was less than 10%. I did well on those AP tests, because I read and studied independently. I learned next to nothing in the actual class, because it was being taught to the level of the majority of the students.

 

I don't want to limit any student's access to challenging curriculum, and I think this new research on the benefits of AP classes for non-passing students is intriguing . . . but . . . I don't think we can pretend that it doesn't affect the very top students in a negative way when they go to class with students who will not master the content nor go on to pass the AP exam. I don't know what the answer is, but I do worry about our ability to challenge the top students when AP becomes the standard class for all.

[MistyMountain]

I like that idea. You do not have to dumb down the course load or the class to make it work. If a student is motivated to learn and do well and put in work then they can rise to the occasion. Also there are kids that are bright students that do not achieve well because they were never challenged. If it is hard for the kids that are not top students that is fine. Telling kids that hard work allows them to learn, grow and develop helps them develop grit which is very important. I believe more kids can rise to the challenge and that kids that have high expectations can rise to them. Kids that are over all more educated and more prepared for college is not a bad thing.

[Sneezyone]

The people most likely to be excluded, who could/would benefit, are underachievers whose prior grades and teacher relationship may bear no resemblance to their capacity for learning. Artificial barriers also hurt those whose parents are not savvy enough to see them for the tracking/sorting mechanism they are. My friend's 8th grader was recently denied placement in honors math, despite a b+ in 7th grade honors math, because of his "attitude". That kind of BS happens far too often. Open access with high standards works.

[Mom22ns]

Btw, I sincerely hope I haven't just responded to a troll. Is this for real?

 

Mark isn't a troll. He is an afterschooler who has been posting on various boards for a little while now. 

 

:)

[CelticHaiku]

I would say that money matters. The article cited one school that both requires and pays for the exam. I say if a school is shelling out the cash to take the exam then they have every right to restrict class space for those most likely to pass the exam. If money is not a factor then I like the middle ground approach that was also mentioned. Basic requirements of success in the previous year of the subject (B grade) and a teacher recommendation - but a parent may override the requirements of they so desire. this way each side can weigh in on the students possibility of a successful experience in a challenging course. The school offers insight on past performance and the patent on current level of determination. It is then up to the teacher to set the bar and the administration to support the level of rigor if parents of less dedicated students complain about difficulty.

[MarkT]

Mark isn't a troll. He is an afterschooler who has been posting on various boards for a little while now. 

 

:)

and Mark has two boys, one tested gifted and one with special needs - I can't fathom how my post was construed to be against special needs students 

[Mom22ns]

from personal experience this writer does not have a much insight into real US schools - the non-performers in schools want to bring the rest of the class down with them - the parents do not raise children that respect the value of education

 

 

and Mark has two boys, one tested gifted and one with special needs - I can't fathom how my post was construed to be against special needs students 

 

I think a lot of people get touchy when they are told the non-performers bring down the rest. My 2e child would never have been allowed in honors/AP/dual enrollment classes at the local high school. However, he did all of those as a homeschooler.

 

I see both sides of this issue. I certainly think qualified students should get the opportunity to be in AP classes, unlike Heigh Ho's experience. However, I think a huge problem in American schools is that they force everyone to be together, to stay at the same level and don't let those who are truly bright and gifted move at a more advanced pace. It is a battle of access for all v. allowing top students to move at a more appropriate pace for their ability. When I first saw the article title, I was expecting them to say that schools were resisting challenging their best and brightest students, not the other way around.

 

Regentrude frequently addresses this difference from German schools where kids are tracked (and many nations do this). When tracking is employed, the brightest kids have the opportunity to accelerate and move beyond standard levels of learning. AP courses are the one place in American schools where this gets to happen. If everyone can take them, the class WILL slow to the average student's pace, even if that isn't the intent. Right now, teachers get in big trouble if too many students are failing. If you put unqualified students into APs many will fail or the class will slow. 

 

I'm torn. I think all students need to be challenged. However, the idea that average kids put in more challenging classes do better in college just tells me most American high school classes need to step it up, not that every one of those students needs to take APs but that they need to have challenging classes offered. I don't have a problem with having qualifiers for APs (test scores, previous performance, something). However, not taking APs shouldn't mean having to take a lousy class. There should be high quality classes for students who plan to go to college but aren't ready for college classes in high school that would be appropriate for those not fitting the AP standards. It is also not appropriate to have the students picked for AP classes based on something political instead of academic ability/performance. The standards for AP and IB here are straight numbers games, no room for political placements and no one in the top 5% who wants in gets turned away.

[Library Momma]

It is my experience that AP classes and AP exams are completely independent from one another.  The AP class is usually the highest level along the top honors track in any given school.  Students need to achieve certain grades in the pre-requisite classes to move along to the AP class.  Testing, grades and past performance all come into play for placement.  The AP exams are completely separate and when I was in school (in the 80s) students started taking the exams they felt prepared for Freshman or sophomore year.  Honors middle school and freshman classes more than prepared some students for the exams and the senior year AP classes themselves were even more in depth and challenging.  Some were even DE with the local state college.  But still you might take the AP American History exam Sophomore year and AP American History as a class Senior year.  Conversely, a student might only make it to Pre-Calculus senior year because they weren't diligent about completing homework or started off on a lower track and never shined enough to jump ahead, but may feel they have a shot at taking the Calc AP exam and do.  It is still see this today.

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

In AP classes, such students would be highly unlikely to succeed in that particular goal because if a teacher did go along with an agenda to "dumb down the class", far fewer students would pass the AP exam at the end of the year. The negative consequences for the teacher, such as irate parents, annoyed administrators, etc., would be swift.

I have seen the pass rates at various schools and the results are terrible. I keep reading about schools where the AP students are getting As and then only get a 2 on the exam. Many schools give a whole extra GPA point for an AP class so the grade inflation is rampant in some areas.

 

In one article or comment I read yesterday, someone posted the pass rates from before open enrollment and after. The pass rates plummeted. Now perhaps taking the course and failing the exam ends up helping the student in college more than never taking it at all. I read the article making that claim and I'm undecided if it is a reasonable conclusion or not.

 

I guess the real question is do the top students continue to have the same exam scores after allowing open enrollment? If they still get 4s and 5s at the same level, then no harm is done. But if their scores decrease as well, or they can only get a top score by treating it more as independent study, then there is a problem.

 

Unforunately, I've read on some blogs that many parents want their average kids in AP classes mostly because their schools no longer have honors classes and it's the only way to keep their kids away from the violent and/or druggie riff-raff in school. I completely understand this reasoning. I just think it's sad that some parents feel the only way to have a safe environment for their kids is to put them in classes they may not be prepared for.

[Mrs. Tharp]

 

 the non-performers in schools want to bring the rest of the class down with them - the parents do not raise children that respect the value of education

I think a lot of people get touchy when they are told the non-performers bring down the rest. My 2e child would never have been allowed in honors/AP/dual enrollment classes at the local high school. However, he did all of those as a homeschooler.

 

The idea that non-performers might bring down the rest does not upset me, since depending on the class/situation, that might be true. (Since No Child Left Behind was implemented, it's definitely been true on a school-wide level.) The idea that they would want to do so after deliberately enrolling in a college level class was what struck me as ludicrous, at least on the surface.

 

 

Maybe taking & failing an AP class functions as a learning experience for the kids in the study. They flounder in the AP class, but in the process, learn the study skills they need to do better in future college level classes.That would indicate that the students who struggle are unprepared but motivated to do better. That's why I'm in favor of open enrollment. Kids should be allowed to attempt classes they know might be hard for them--all kids. There is value in experiencing failure.

 

I do feel that if a college level course is dumbed down due to perceived issues with students, it's on the teacher and the administration for allowing it, and really the parents too, for not raising a huge stink.  The same really holds for any class offered in high school. It's hard to make the time to complain, but it's the only way change happens.

 

In my school district the parents would be up in arms if they thought their child failed an AP exam due to inadequate content in class. Of course, in my district, a group of parents with kids in all advanced classes just petitioned the school board to decrease their kids' workload, so they'd have more time for sports & other extracurriculars. Jeesh. "Holding back" accelerated kids is not a problem here.

[Sneezyone]

 the non-performers in schools want to bring the rest of the class down with them - the parents do not raise children that respect the value of education

The idea that non-performers might bring down the rest does not upset me, since depending on the class/situation, that might be true. (Since No Child Left Behind was implemented, it's definitely been true on a school-wide level.) The idea that they would want to do so after deliberately enrolling in a college level class was what struck me as ludicrous, at least on the surface.

 

YES!!!!!  If a student is ASKING for a challenge, particularly despite all of the arbitrary barriers that too many schools erect, it's reasonable to assume that they have at least some interest in doing the work. As homeschoolers (and homeschool friendly types) we should all be able to appreciate that grades are not an accurate measure of student achievement or capacity. In schools they include a heckuva lot more than content mastery, it's also inclusive of things like compliance and friendliness.

 

I think students whose parents push them into AP classes have less motivation to do the hard work but are more likely to actually get the chance than the child who seeks the class on his/her own. That is bass ackwards to me. I'd be going with the underachieving student(s) who self-selects over the parentally pressured one(s) everyday, all day.

 

Also, the difference in content between an AP class and typical "college prep" class is huge. Exposure to AP topics and themes can be very helpful later on, even if mastery is not achieved (as demonstrated by an AP exam).

 The AP exams are completely separate and when I was in school (in the 80s) students started taking the exams they felt prepared for Freshman or sophomore year.  Honors middle school and freshman classes more than prepared some students for the exams and the senior year AP classes themselves were even more in depth and challenging.  Some were even DE with the local state college.  But still you might take the AP American History exam Sophomore year and AP American History as a class Senior year.  Conversely, a student might only make it to Pre-Calculus senior year because they weren't diligent about completing homework or started off on a lower track and never shined enough to jump ahead, but may feel they have a shot at taking the Calc AP exam and do.  It is still see this today.

 

This is completely not my experience.  I can't believe that any neurotypical middle school student, who hasn't taken a class designed for the AP syllabus, has any hope of passing an AP exam.  Do you really think that an 8th grader, who isn't a native FL speaker, with the typical US public school curriculum, has any hope of passing any AP foreign language test?  AP Calc?  AP Physics?  AP Bio?

 

You are seriously asserting that it is a good idea for a student who has taken no Calculus (and presumably, not studied independently) to take the AP Calc exam?  What is the score distribution for such students?

[Library Momma]

This is completely not my experience.  I can't believe that any neurotypical middle school student, who hasn't taken a class designed for the AP syllabus, has any hope of passing an AP exam.  Do you really think that an 8th grader, who isn't a native FL speaker, with the typical US public school curriculum, has any hope of passing any AP foreign language test?  AP Calc?  AP Physics?  AP Bio?

 

You are seriously asserting that it is a good idea for a student who has taken no Calculus (and presumably, not studied independently) to take the AP Calc exam?  What is the score distribution for such students?

 

 

Right, that is my point.  I was on an upper track so I was prepared.  Students who haven't mastered the pre-requisites are not yet ready and should take the tests at their own pace.  The article is arguing that everyone should be able to simply just take the AP exams as they are offered.  Watered down courses make it possible for them to take the exam but many do poorly.  I am saying that only students who are truly prepared should take the exams and do so at their own pace.  

[creekland]

It is my experience that AP classes and AP exams are completely independent from one another.  The AP class is usually the highest level along the top honors track in any given school.  Students need to achieve certain grades in the pre-requisite classes to move along to the AP class.  Testing, grades and past performance all come into play for placement.  The AP exams are completely separate and when I was in school (in the 80s) students started taking the exams they felt prepared for Freshman or sophomore year.  Honors middle school and freshman classes more than prepared some students for the exams and the senior year AP classes themselves were even more in depth and challenging.  Some were even DE with the local state college.  But still you might take the AP American History exam Sophomore year and AP American History as a class Senior year.  Conversely, a student might only make it to Pre-Calculus senior year because they weren't diligent about completing homework or started off on a lower track and never shined enough to jump ahead, but may feel they have a shot at taking the Calc AP exam and do.  It is still see this today.

 

I have never seen this happen.  It surprises me that it would to be honest.  The vast majority of kids IME who take the exams either take an official class or self-study first, take the test, then are finished with that course afterward.  They may take other courses, of course, but I've never seen them repeat the same course that the test is designed for.

[Library Momma]

I have never seen this happen.  It surprises me that it would to be honest.  The vast majority of kids IME who take the exams either take an official class or self-study first, take the test, then are finished with that course afterward.  They may take other courses, of course, but I've never seen them repeat the same course that the test is designed for.

 

That is how it was is the school I went to (regular public school).  We took Honors American Studies Freshman year and Honors History (I can't remember the exact name)Sophomore Year.  Sophomore year some of the students could start deciding which AP exams they would like to take.  I took the AP US History as one of my exams.  Then Junior year it was Western Civilizations and Senior year it was AP American History. AP American History was the progression in the honors track.  You wouldn't take another class because you would only want the highest level classes on your transcript. Those that didn't take the test earlier took the test Senior year as one of their APs.  Those that had already taken the test Sophomore year could concentrate on other APs.

 

We only really  had the option to test early for for US Government, English, Spanish and Biology.  Those are the tests the school felt we were most prepared for by the precursor classes.  The AP Calc exam was not an option for any of us because we had not yet taken the pre-cursor classes.  But if there was someone who had self studied or had taken outside classes they most certainly have taken the exam if they wished.

 

Once you took the exam early you were able to work on more advanced work when you took the actual class Senior year.  I took the bio test also Sophomore year after taking a very rigorous honors Bio class.  When Senior year I took AP Bio the students that already taken the test worked on advanced dissection and other labs while other students geared up for the exam.

[creekland]

That is how it was is the school I went to (regular public school).  

 

Definitely different - and unusual.  All schools I'm aware of offer other choices that can be taken instead and are still considered Top classes (European, Non-Western, Current Events, etc).

 We took Honors American Studies Freshman year and Honors History Sophomore Year.  Sophomore year some of the students could start deciding which AP exams they would like to take.  I took the AP US History as one of my exams.  Then Junior year it was Western Civilizations and Senior year it was AP American History. 

 

We only really  had the option to test early for for US Government, English, Spanish and Biology.  Those are the tests the school felt we were most prepared for by the precursor classes.  The AP Calc exam was not an option for any of us because we had not yet taken the pre-cursor classes.  But if there was someone who had self studied or had taken outside classes they most certainly have taken the exam if they wished.

 

Once you took the exam early you were able to work on more advanced work when you took the actual class Senior year.  I took the bio test also Sophomore year after taking a very rigorous honors Bio class.  When Senior year I took AP Bio the students that already taken the test worked on advanced dissection and other labs while other students geared up for the exam.

 

I find this really bizarre, and unusual.  I wonder if this was a temporary situation while curriculum and/or AP testing was in flux at that school.

 

What was the academic background of the students that took AP Spanish early, and what class did they finish when they took the test?  Typical american curricula have at most one year equivalent of foreign language in middle school, and if a college bound student is going to take four years of Spanish in high school, I can't imagine why they wouldn't take that after as much coursework as possible.

[Library Momma]

I find this really bizarre, and unusual.  I wonder if this was a temporary situation while curriculum and/or AP testing was in flux at that school.

 

What was the academic background of the students that took AP Spanish early, and what class did they finish when they took the test?  Typical american curricula have at most one year equivalent of foreign language in middle school, and if a college bound student is going to take four years of Spanish in high school, I can't imagine why they wouldn't take that after as much coursework as possible.

 

No - I believe it still exists today.  It is only a handful of the students that have the option for the early exams.  Allowing the Spanish exam was the result of a student who was bilingual at home requesting to take the exam early.  I am sure that there have been other similar circumstances throughout the years including additional exams.

 Allowing the Spanish exam was the result of a student who was bilingual at home requesting to take the exam early.  I am sure that there have been other similar circumstances throughout the years including additional exams.

 

OK, so that's just a special case, then, and not the usual situation.